How many rounds of "Talking Points" has Dean survived?

[dajabr]

The attempts to discredit and label Dean have been going on for months and he has shown a great ability to overcome them.

I'll start with my all-time favorite:

"When the war is over, Dean's campaign won't have a leg to stand on."

Any other anti-Dean memes been left in the dust?

[dsc]

1. Dean

can't raise money (first place in 2Q and in matching funds)

can't get female support (he is polling close to even)

can't do well in large states with a lot of minorities (tied for 1st in California)

worst interview in TV history (MTP in June) raised millions after that appearence and tonight one caller sited that as her reason to support him.

[whirlygigspin]

3. beltway hacks are circling the wagons

I'm sure thoughts of progressives and greens overunning
DC with Dean has them all scrambling & squealing,
like pigs at a trough...

Very Marie Antoinette.
(the people are revolting,ha!ha!)

[nbsmom]

6. Can someone explain to me...

Who decided they could speak for female voters in the first place?

I have never seen such dreck as the crap that's been flying around the last couple of months...something about 'soccer moms' becoming 'security moms' and that these mythical beasts prefer Bush because he makes them feel safe.

Just knowing that Rove lives to plot another day makes me lose sleep. The guy he supposedly works for gives me nightmares, too.:scared:

I was fortunate enough to be able to see Dean deliver his environmental policy speech the other day...and that room was full of all sorts of people, all hungry for someone who will tell them the truth.

Give 'em hell, Howard.

FTR, Dean has my vote...and my mom's and my SIL's.

[Eloriel]

2. My enduring favorite

That it's only us ultra-lefties who support him, and they'll stop supporting him when they realize he's no liberal. Bwaaahahaa. People from all parts of the poitical spectrum support him, incuding a HUGE number of people who've never been active in politics before.

BRAND New Democrats for Dean
http://brandnewdemocrats.blogspot.com

Independents for Dean
http://deanindependents.org/

Republicans for Dean
http://republicansfordean.blogspot.com/


And then, of course, there are those who insist he's TOO liberal. (Hmm, now which is it? They can't both be right.)

Or those who insist his support is only from the very young -- college students.

Another that will soon bite the dust is the charge that only whites support him. I wonder how many people realize he speaks better Spanish than George Bush?

Eloriel

[dajabr]

4. Those are some other big ones that have gone down in flames

And, I'd favor a Univision/Telemundo Presidential Debate (with subtitles of course). Let's demoralize shrub in all languages and formats! B-)

[Kanola]

5. He is the next McGovern.. he will lose 49 states

such utter speculation..

[ProfessorPlum]

7. Yeah

that's my favorite.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

9. "The Democratic Party will be relegated to

the political wilderness." -- Joe Lieberman

Let's take a look outside the window, right now:

[blm]

8. Dean is a compromising centrist who would have been pilloried at DU

as a DINO if DUers had been critiquing his GOP cozy governance back in the 90s.

Nah...that one's still alive...and no one can deny it honestly, can they?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. Cozy with the GOP=

350 Billion Dollar Tax cut.
Iraq War Resoulution.
Patriot Act.

[blm]

15. Cozy for ELEVEN YEARS with the GOP

and treating liberals like shit = Howard Dean as gov. of Vermont.

To NOT vote for a 350b Dem alternative taxcut meant that the Bush taxcut would definitely pass. Why not represent it honestly for a change? The whole truth hurts your argument.

The Iraq resolution did much of the same that was required of the Biden-Lugar bill that Dean supported. Why not represent thge resolution and Dean's position honestly for a change? The whole truth hurts your argument.

Prove to me that Dean's record as a heavy-handed law and order guy shows he would NOT have voted for the Patriot Act in 2001, when all the evidence of his own words after 9-11 (and before) show otherwise.

Easy to be sanctimonious when you leave out most of the truth, RIF. Try using the whole truth.

[ProfessorPlum]

19. even VT liberals, as ill-treated and scarred as they must have been

by the Dean governorship (if we are to believe your posts) got to enjoy more healthcare coverage for uninsured kids, budget surpluses that will keep their taxes from going way up in these years where state taxes are rising like crazy from budget shortfalls, and an executive climate that favored personal liberty and economic responsibility during Dean's term. I'll try to feel bad for them.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

22. Speaking of missing facts....

"Cozy for ELEVEN YEARS with the GOP and treating liberals like shit."

Ollie, Ollie, Oxen, Free, Free, Free. Come out facts, wherever you are!

To NOT vote for a 350b Dem alternative taxcut meant that the Bush taxcut would definitely pass.

Excuse me, but the Bush taxcut DID pass! To the tune of $350B. The fact is that the Dems would have been better off voting NO to any taxcuts thereby placing the full burden of their ruinous effect firmly where they belong: the GOP. Instead, by voting for a reduced cut, the Dems have placed themselves in the position of being responsible for enabling ChimpCo. They have red ink on their hands.

Furthermore, Kerry and Lieberman are out there bashing Dean for wanting to repeal all of the taxcuts, saying that that in effect is a tax increase. Whaaaaa? Sure the taxcut threw a couple of bones to middle class families but that issue would be addressed by repealing the taxcuts, in toto, increasing the marginal tax rate on wealthy individuals and corporations. Kerry and Lieberman are against repealing the taxcuts in full. Therefore they support them. The whole truth hurts your argument.

Prove to me that Dean's record as a heavy-handed law and order guy shows he would NOT have voted for the Patriot Act in 2001, when all the evidence of his own words after 9-11 (and before) show otherwise.

Ollie, Ollie, Oxen, Free, Free, Free. Come out facts, wherever you are!

Heavy-handed? Link?

Too many in my party voted for the Patriot Act. We need more Democrats who are willing to stand against Bush's reckless disregard for our civil liberties. As Americans, we need to stand up and ensure that our laws reflect our values. As President, I will repeal those parts of the Patriot Act that undermine our constitutional rights, and will stand against any further attempts to expand the government's reach at the expense of our civil liberties.-- Howard Dean

on edit to add: I strongly supported including a sunset provision in the Patriot Act. Bush reportedly plans to introduce a second "Patriot Act" - we have learned from the first Patriot Act that the last thing we need is John Ashcroft rewriting the Bill of Rights. I am alarmed by what has been reported to be part of "Patriot Act II" and I will very carefully review any new proposal and fight to ensure that it does not violate civil liberties.--John Kerry

Maybe if he had reviewed the first PA "very carefully" he wouldn't have voted for it. Yes, that's right, he voted FOR it. Fact. The sunset provision only has civil rights being trampled for four years. Way to go!

[ProfessorPlum]

23. great post

thanks for the cooling breeze of logic.

[blm]

28. You're wrong about the taxcut....

They did not vote for the Bush taxcut in 2001 OR the Bush taxcut in 2003. I thought you were referring to the 2001 taxcut monstrosity that Dean claimed they voted for when they actually only voted for an alternative to Bush's.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

36. And right about everything else?

And they voted for the reduced taxcut. Sorry.

[blm]

37. No..you're wrong about everything else, too.

But, you knew that already.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

41. Your words, Post #28

They did not vote for the Bush taxcut in 2001 OR the Bush taxcut in 2003. I thought you were referring to the 2001 taxcut monstrosity that Dean claimed they voted for when they actually only voted for an alternative to Bush's.


They voted for huge tax cuts that benefit the wealthy. Whether it was 1B, 350B or 750B. Stop spinning.

[MercutioATC]

24. Dean's a CENTRIST. He's not far-left OR far-right.

To say that he was "cozy with the GOP" is as silly as saying he "treat liberals like shit". He's a centrist. Say it three times

centrist

centrist

centrist

That means "moderate" according to Webster. Is it really so surprising that both the very conservative and the very liberal would have problems with him? Vermont progressives tend to be pretty far to the left. Dean, as a centrist DID reject some of the more liberal proposals. That's what centrists do.

[JohnKleeb]

32. yeah

Kerry wants to repeal them for the wealthy not everyone
You dont know what Dean would have done, Kerry like Dean and unlike me supported it bilaterally
again what would have Dean had done? probably voted for it and he actually says his only beef is Ashcroft gets to control it.

[dajabr]

11. Right!

That's the "Dean is no liberal and you're all being fooled" angle. May have already been mentioned upthread, but thanks for contributing, blm.

[ProfessorPlum]

12. you still think "compromising centrist" is an insult, don't you?

Come join us in the real world. There are a lot of people who would rather be right than be president. Dean is doing everything he can to win. Effectiveness is also a virtue.

[blm]

13. I don't care that he's a compromising centrist....I'm pointing

to the sanctimonious posters who would have lumped him in with Miller and Lieberman if they had been paying attention to Dean's governance throughout his tenure.

Dean is who he is, and there's a whole group here who support him now who would have loathed his governance if they heard about it as it was happening.

Imagine if DU had been paying attention to Dean everytime he dissed the liberal and progressive Dems in Vermont and sided with the Republicans. Hell, even if they paid attention in early 2002 when he chose to support Bush on Yucca Mt., his Afghanistan strategy (refusing to back Gore and Kerry) and the Patriot Act.

[ProfessorPlum]

16. So you don't care that he's a compromising centrist,

you just think everyone else should care. Why? (By the way, I think a centrist from Vermont is much different from a centrist from, let's say, Mississippi or Montana).

The primary reason I like Dean and support him is that he seems to be effective. If he suddenly started sounding like me tomorrow and started adopting a lot of really progressive policies, well, that would make me even happier, but right now we've got to get someone who is EFFECTIVE to get rid of Bush. And I don't mean effective in legislating or upholding progressive ideals, etc. I mean being effective in the field of the media in speaking for people and letting everyone know that Bush MUST GO.

That's Dean's message, and I like him for it. As the other candidates hammer on Bush and are effective in the media, my affinity for them also rises.

[blm]

29. Because many of the same folks here

who have for 2 years put down any Dem who negotiated with the Republicans for a better deal, now seem to see it as a plus for Dean. It's THEIR hypocrisy that I point out.

Plus Dean's hypocrisy, too. I didn't care when he was first running as a centrist because that's who he is. When he started attacking other Democrats who were to his left for negotiating, with their goal being a better deal for the American people than what Bush would give them, well, that was just wrong and disingenuous on his part. When he fostered the idea that he was the more progressive Democratic candidate by labeling the others Bushlite, well, he bought himself a boatload of explanations for that crock of bull. His record doesn't match the rhetoric.

I suggest you find the poster, JeniB, a Gephardt supporter familiar with Dean. She can enlighten you on the man's real character. He seems like a first rank usurper to me.

[ProfessorPlum]

35. Let go your hate . . .

Even Dr. Dean would be a big improvement over Smirky. You might even find the country improving were he President.

Do you like any of Dean's policies? Do you like anything about the way he has shifted some of the dialog in this country?

Personally, I think it is difficult to run for chief executive coming directly from the legislative branch. It's difficult to do because of some of the things you have mentioned here, mostly that you have to negotiate with your political enemies to achieve things. Everytime the opposition party proposes something bad, you have to decide whether to go along and try to cut down on the badness, or to remove yourself from the process as a matter of principle. I understand all of those things.

But I think that Dean's critique of the Dem. leadership in Congress is much the same as my own - they have not put up as much of a fuss as they really should have. They really have been acting as if everything's ok, nothing to worry about, we're all in good hands. I think many of them are fantastic people and good legislators and I think many of them would also make fine presidents. (Except for Lieberman - what is with that guy?) They haven't been sounding the alarm. I give credit where credit is due - Kerry especially has gotten in some good digs about where this country is heading.

But when the President says he wants a cake, the Democrats start talking about maybe half a cake, when no cake is really what is needed. And I realize they are not in charge, of either the executive or the legislative branch (now why would that be?) but they need in that case to do what they can legislatively and then scream bloody murder about it. Lieberman especially is trying to put us all to sleep while the country is pillaged.

Finally, I don't think Dean ever labeled himself as more progressive than the other candidates - just less susceptible to being taken in by Bush.

[Nazgul35]

14. our current form of government...

was based on compromise...what became a problem was that the repugs went right and demanded that the democrats meet them half way...half way to hell that is....as Dean said last night on Larry King, the party has moved so far right to accomadate the repugs that moderate seems left wing liberal....

Also blm, im glad all the issues you support line up perfectly on a single dimension left-right scale, but my would is multidimensional and tell me.....how can I plot a single point in a ten dimensional space? That would be rank ordering your policy positions by importance to each individual...so expect there to be different combinations....

THERE IS NO CORRECT ANSWER ON WHO'S A LEFT THAT FIST ALL CANDIDATES AND ALL PARTY MEMBERS....so stop trying to pick apart a candidate becuase they are multidimensional...

PS: was it atrios or kos who showed that Lieberman was actually more liberal on many voting scores then Edwards and Kerry?

[blm]

18. Lieberman is more liberal than DEAN on some issues.

But that doesn't stop the sanctimonious.

btw...I'd like to see proof of the "many" voting scores that Lieberman scored more liberal than Kerry. Are they lifetime scores, or cherry-picked? I certainly haven't seen anything significant.

[ProfessorPlum]

21. that's certainly true

kind of points up Nazgul's argument that this is a multidimensional problem you are trying to fit on a single axis, doesn't it?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

26. Lieberman and Kerry score identically on

waging foreign wars of agression, curtailing civil rights(but only for 4 years, Sunset Clause, you know), and burdening the American taxpayer with $350B worth of red ink.

Let's call it a tie, why don't we.

[blm]

30. Spinner.

.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

38. Spin this:

IWR= Aye

PA= Aye

$350B= Aye


Everything else is spin, rationalization, and ass-covering.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

34. Wasn't this thread supposedly about all the attacks Dean has gotten?

Wasn't this thread supposedly about all the attacks Dean has gotten? Look where it ended up.

[peaceandjustice]

27. maybe not..or MAYBE...

we're all just letting the "compromising centrist" thing sit out there, cancelling out comments we see saying Dean is too liberal to win and too extreme to effectively govern. Maybe "compromising centrist" looks pretty damn good in the general election against the team who thinks "bipartisanship is date rape". (Grover Norquist, slipping up and sharing their true feelings)

Or maybe it's incredibly easy to dismiss the "compromising centrist" charge when you realize that Dean's from a state where the center IS America's left...they send a socialist to the House of Representatives and their Republican Senator bolted the party when he saw how rightward America's politics had become compared to Vermont.

[blm]

31. And maybe Kerry lets Dean get away with painting him as too moderate

because Dean's rhetoric is so hot, it makes Kerry's TRUE liberalism seem moderate in comparison.

[peaceandjustice]

39. and MAYBE that's completely irrelevant

How Dean characterizes John Kerry has nothing to do with the debate over whether Dean is too liberal or too moderate, how either of those labels may impact a genral campaign or a Dean presidency or my point that Vermont politics tends to be more progressive as a whole.


Come on, as Jimmy on South Park might say.

[blm]

40. We'll see...

.

[quinnox]

17. Just wait until it gets close to primary season

It hasn't even begun for Dean in terms of talking points and attacks. The longer he is competitive in the polls in the states, the more the other candidates will be forced to attack him. Lieberman already has decided to become the anti-Dean, Kerry is starting to be more aggressive, and Gephardt will as well if Iowa continues to show Dean being close.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

20. And how's that "anti-Dean" approach working for Lieberman?

Not very well, I imagine.

Agreed that Dean will be attacked more and more. So will Kerry and any other front-runner. It's going to get ugly.

[gully]

25. Dean is amazing

his campaing in amazing. He's gonna reshape the democratic party, screw the DLC...

Im on board! Go DEAN!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

33. None. The campaign hasn't even started.