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Vap Noose Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 07:45 AM
Original message
Crystle & Meetup for everyone in Pennsylvania
I got this email for getting signed up for Meetup for Charlie Crystle's US Senate campaign in PA, join us!

Meetup.com:
You are on my mailing list because you sent mail
directly to Charlie or signed up on the site. As such
you are part of the core of our super-supporters, and
we need your help! We're starting our volunteer
efforts in a week, plus we have our first full-fledged
Howard Dean-style "Meetup" on August 27th. We
encourage you to signup for the "Meetup" here:

http://crystleforsenate.meetup.com/

At the meetup you'll talk about the campaign,
volunteer activities, and things you can do in your
community to help change things NOW. The only other
thing we ask--bring a friend! Charlie will probably be
at the Lancaster Meetup, but it's not confirmed yet.
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UpstateNYDem Donating Member (187 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. When you see Charlie...
Ask him what the White House promised him to ruin our chances of retaking the Senate?
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Good question
nt
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thirded (n/t)
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
32. Folks, get over this
This absolutely DISGUSTS me that anyone feels we should take away our right to have a primary and choose who we feel is the best candidate for office. Geez, why not just eliminate elections altogether and we'll let DC decide who should represent us.

If Joe Hoeffel doesn't like the challenge then maybe HE should drop out of the race. As I've pointed out 10 trillion times and I'll remind you folks, including those of you NOT from PA that Ed Rendell was a double digit underdog who was not supported by either the PA Democratic Party OR most statewide unions. Maybe Ed Rendell should have dropped out since it seems democrats in general originally wanted Bob Casey Jr. as their democratic nomination for governor.

And might I also remind you that there are many elected officials out there INCLUDING senators who have had no politic experience before running for Senator.

Personally these comments about Crystle dropping out because he's hurting "the democrats chance of retaking the senate" are absolute living proof that Hoeffel doesn't really have a chance because folks are scared that maybe an outsider can come in here and win!

Here's a fact for those of you who were not born and raised outside of the Philadelphia area and still have a large quanity of immediate family, best friends and other people you have known for a lifetime who have lived their entire life outside of the Philadelphia Region. They have no freaking clue who Joe Hoeffel is and as far as they are concerned they would probably still vote for Arlen Specter. Why? Name recogniztion - when they can't distinguish between the candidates running for office, they go with the name they recognize the most. How else can you explain why ARLEN SPECTER HAS BEEN A 5 TERM SENATOR in Pennsylvania? But these people aren't dumb voters - if another choice came along that was different and addressed issues as to why thousands of Pennsylvanian Jobs have left our country and caused the state of PA to lose enough people in their state that equals 5 congressional representatives in the past 2 redistrictings (that's about 2 million people in 20 years) then these people will listen. Joe Hoeffel believes in this warped "Free Trade" that is costing jobs here in America. Is this what is best Pennsylvania? Geez, if we're dealing we Free Trade then why vote for Hoeffel when we already have Specter who votes the same exact way?

Hoeffel doesn't stand a chance against Specter; blaming it on Crystle is just dumb!
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Vap Noose Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. You kids must be kidding
Either that or the DLC has fooled you. Hoeffel has NO CHANCE at defeating Spector, at least Crystle is a fresh voice. Open your minds and take a look at what Charlie says. I doubt any of you have even heard him speak-- he's good!

Look, here's your dish of reality:
Spector-- 53
Hoeffel- 29

Besides, Hoeffel supports Bush's unilateral invasion of Iraq, how can any of you support someone who backed that bullshit?

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UpstateNYDem Donating Member (187 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. You have to be kidding
A) How about showing one thing the DLC has said about Hoeffel. The DLC does not endorse candidates and Crystle is a rich, selfish, pain in the ass. I don't care what he has to say.

B) Well that is a very poor dish of reality. With 47% percent unwilling to commit to supporting the reelect of Specter and with 29% already commited to electing Hoeffel, he is doing significantly better then Crystle. Besides, I wonder what Crystle's poll numbers would look like now.

C) I know it may be hard for you to understand that there is a divergence of opinions in the Democratic party and that liberal orthodoxy that get you elected in some states won't in all, but if support of the war is really your standard for a Democrat, then we would have about 100 seats in Congress and 20 in the Senate. I think you make a weak case of why you are a Democrat.
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Well
People like that poster above expect the Democrats to cator to the far left fringes of the party all the time, 100% of the time.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
UpstateNYDem Donating Member (187 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. You got us...
We are freepers, only real freepers would defend a Democratic MAJORITY, rather than allowing Republicans to have veto proof majorities in both houses of Congress just to make sure we are ideologically pure.

You are doing more to support the Republican party then anyone in the DLC ever dreamed of.
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Vap Noose Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. You need to be informed then
Joe Hoeffel, R-Pa., is a member of the New Democrat caucus, which is a political arm of the DLC.

Or how about this, from Salon (or is that just another part of the "left fringe"?), which showed what Hoeffel said about Bush in Feb, 2001:


The mystery of the docile Democrats
http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/02/22/democrats/index3.html

Joe Hoffel on Bush and taxes and governing:

"I think he's signaling that he's willing to compromise, to make it less expensive, to make adjustments down the road."

"Bush is proposing 85 percent of what the DLC was proposing a year ago through Lieberman and Cal Dooley" -- a California Democrat. "Bush's plan is night and day to where Bob Dole was, and we're aware of that."

------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously, Hoeffel couldn't smell the rightwing shit that Bush was about to pull on this country. And neither does he now.
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Here's Hoeffel on 23 June 2003
Mr. HOEFFEL. Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to address the House with a number of my colleagues who will be joining me later, notably the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Delahunt) and the gentleman from Hawaii (Mr. Abercrombie), to talk about Iraq.

Mr. Speaker, we have had a great military victory in Iraq. Our young men and women performed with great courage and great effectiveness. We are all very proud of our military and the fact that the threat of the Saddam Hussein regime is no longer present to threaten regional and world peace. But we have two questions that we believe need to be addressed: First, is our military mission complete in Iraq? Secondly, having won the military victory, are we winning the peace?

Regarding the military mission, I would suggest to the House that our mission is not complete without a full accounting of the weapons of mass destruction. There is no question that the primary purpose for invading Iraq put forward by the administration last year and accepted by a majority of the Members of Congress, myself included, was for the purpose of disarming Saddam Hussein of weapons of mass destruction. There is no question that Hussein had such weapons in the past. The international United Nations inspectors were finding them in the mid and late 1990s. Hussein used weapons of mass destruction, notably chemical weapons, against his own citizens with devastating and brutal effects. No one has dreamt up or made up the motion that Hussein had in the past weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that he did. But we cannot find them now. We do not know where they are. Perhaps they are buried in the desert and we will find them next week. I hope that is the case. Perhaps he gave them to some other group or some other country. Perhaps he destroyed them. We do not know what happened, but many of us in the House believe that we must have a full accounting of what happened to the weapons of mass destruction before our military mission is complete, for two basic reasons. First off, we need to know where they are. If they are not in Iraq and have been given or taken someplace else, we need to secure them, to dismantle them. We need to know who has the custody of them.

If they are in Iraq, we have to find them. We have to make sure that the coalition forces gain custody of those weapons of mass destruction and not another group that might use them for evil purposes. If these weapons have been destroyed, all for the better; but we need to know why our intelligence did not know that fact. We frankly need to know what happened to them so that we could be sure that the world has been rid of that particular group of weapons of mass destruction and that, if they do exist, they are in safe custody.

The second reason that we need a full accounting of the weapons of mass destruction is to determine what has happened regarding our intelligence and the political use of that intelligence by the Bush administration in the arguments to support war in Iraq. There is no question that the Bush administration and the leading senior advisors to the President stated with complete certainty in the fall of 2002 that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, was developing more weapons of mass destruction, and posed an imminent threat to the region and, in fact, to the world. In private briefings and in public statements, the President of the United States and his senior advisors assured Members of Congress and the American people that the weapons of mass destruction existed, that they were being developed in even greater numbers, and that they posed an imminent threat. And many of us, myself included, based our vote in favor of military action against Iraq for the primary purpose of disarming Saddam Hussein of weapons of mass destruction. Now we cannot find them.

More troubling, now stories are appearing in the press and intelligence analysts are stepping forward, only on the record if they have retired, off the record if they still are at work for the United States, saying, in fact, they were not giving such certain advice to the White House in the fall of 2002, that they were saying we cannot be sure what kinds of weapons of mass destruction Saddam Hussein had in the fall of 2002.

On September 26, 2002, the President made a speech in the Rose Garden stating with great certainty that Saddam Hussein had chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction and was developing additional chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction, and yet at the same time it now has become public. The Defense Intelligence Agency in September, 2002, was circulating a report through the White House in the highest levels of the administration saying ``there was no credible evidence that Saddam Hussein currently had weapons of mass destruction or was developing more weapons of mass destruction.'' There was some evidence, but no credible evidence that that was a certainty. And that lack of certainty did not make its way into the public and private arguments made by the administration. So many of us feel that the Bush administration has a growing credibility gap regarding the weapons of mass destruction.

Why does this matter? It matters greatly for the President's new doctrine of preemption, of the preemptive use of military power to stop an enemy. I do believe in an age of terror when we are dealing with adversaries that do not always come from another country who do not always have a capital city to defend or a homeland to defend when we are dealing with terrorists who are not only faceless but stateless that it may be necessary to take preemptive military action if we are faced with an imminent threat to this country. But that presupposes that we have accurate intelligence. It is one thing to respond to an attack against us. That is the way America has always gone to war once we have been attacked, and it is easy, of course, in the traditional sense of warfare to see an armada massing in the bay or an army building on our borders to know that an attack is imminent.

In an age of terror, we will not always have that warning; so preemptive action may be wise and necessary in the future, but we must have accurate intelligence. We must be able to depend upon that intelligence. We must be able to depend upon the intelligence analysts bringing the information forward in a timely fashion, giving their best advice to the President and the White House, and then we have to depend upon the President and the White House using that information appropriately and wisely, using it to inform Congress and the American people, not to mislead Congress and the American people.

We do not know at this point what exactly happened regarding our intelligence. We do not know whether it was misused by anyone intentionally or unintentionally. We do not know whether the White House heard what it wanted to hear in these intelligence briefings. We do not know whether the intelligence briefings told the White House what the briefers thought the White House wanted to hear, nor do we know whether Congress was told what people only wanted us to know or perhaps what they thought they wanted us to know.

But these questions have to be answered because it goes to the very root of our democratic system, our checks and balances, the proper relationship between the executive and the legislative branches and whether or not we can have faith in the accuracy of our national intelligence agencies and in the proper use of that intelligence.

more...http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r108:H23JN3-0065:
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Vap Noose Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Hoeffel sounds like Kerry
Masking his vote of enabling with tough talk, all because they finally got a sense of which way the wind is moving...
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NewJerseyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. A lot of people are New Democrats
Even Loretta Sanchez is a member of the New Democratic Coalition and it seems to me that a lot of people here like her. 74 Democratic congressmen are "New Democrats" and 20 senators including Debbie Stabenow, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton and Maria Cantwell. I happen to prefer all of those to Arlen Specter.

Hoeffel gets a 5% lifetime rating from the ACU. How he votes is what really matters. There are more issues in the world than just support of the war.
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Vap Noose Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. --
That's 5% too much. Besides, Hoeffel supported this war, and I cannot support anyone who supported this crime against humanity.

You may be able to chuck it off as nothing important from your lazy chair, but from the perspective of those losing lives because of this, it means everything.

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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Just as I thought
Unless someone is 100% perfect you can't support them. So no one can please except those from the far left.
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Vap Noose Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. It's not about percentages
That's your outlook, not mine. All you seem to care about are the numbers, and you argue that Hoeffel has the better ones. I look at this abominable war, and read the stories like this:

U.S. Troops Shoot Dead Reuters Cameraman in Iraq... Married with four young children, Dana was one of the company's most experienced conflict journalists...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=5&u=/nm/20030817/ts_nm/iraq_cameraman_dc_11

It matters to me that Hoeffel enabled this to happen. Maybe your heart is too cold and hard to care about anything but the percentages of winning-- I'm not there, principles matter.
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Vap--I live in reality
I am not going to vote against someone because of one issue. It's more complicated than that. You can scream about principles while Rome burns and Arlen Specter gets re-elected. But frankly punishing Democrats is not the way to defeat Republicans.
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NewJerseyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. That is ridiculous
Paul Wellstone had a 3% lifetime rating from the ACU. Russ Feingold has a 10%, Ted Kennedy has a 3%, Barbara Mikulski has a 6%, Paul Sarbanes has a 5%, Barbara Boxer has a 2%, Dick Durbin has a 7%, Jack Reed has a 7%, Carl Levin has a 6%, Frank Lautenberg has a 6% and Daniel Akaka and Daniel Inouye each have a 7%. Do you dislike them as well? Most of them are more conservative than Hoeffel according to the ACU. I would prefer all of them to the 42% of Arlen Specter or the 97% of Pat Toomey. I would also prefer to have the 14% of Tom Daschle as majority leader to the 90% of Bill Frist.

I guess Michael Honda and Chaka Fattah are basically the only people that you accept since they are the only members of congresss that I could find that have lifetime 0's from the ACU.

Also, I doubt that this Crystle guy will be anymore liberal. You can't be much more liberal than a 5% from the ACU.
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. People make mistakes
Ted Kennedy, Dan Inouye, and Robert Byrd voted for the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. Do you still hold that against them?

Here's a challenge for you: Find one other Hoeffel vote (besides the Patriot Act and the Afghanistan resolution, even Wellstone voted for those) in the 108th Congress that you disagree with.
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Vap Noose Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Here's a challenge for you
Find one vote in the 108th Congress, or for that matter, during Hoeffel's entire career, that matters more than the resolution that Hoeffel voted for giving way to the Bush doctrine of preemptive military invasions?

Also, to answer your question, I disagreed with Hoeffel voting for the lesser tax-cuts (Gephardt's plan) to Bush's... makes sense, afterall, he's Bush-lite.

Howabout holding Hoeffel accountable instead of making excuses for him?
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. See post #24 (n/t)
Edited on Mon Aug-18-03 11:31 AM by goobergunch
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UpstateNYDem Donating Member (187 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Again
The DLC does not endorse candidates.

Charlie Crystle is a loser hellbent on making sure we don't take the PA Senate seat.

And I'm a member of the DLC, so all the better that Hoeffel is.
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srpantalonas Donating Member (372 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. "I'm pretty much a Free Trader"--Joe Hoeffel
Edited on Sun Aug-17-03 12:16 PM by srpantalonas
Tuesday, August 5th, in response to a legislator from Western PA who attributed the massive, painful loss of jobs in his district to GATT, NAFTA, and Free Trade, and then asked "what do you think of free trade?" Joe chuckled and said "I'm pretty much a Free Trader."

Free trade is killing this country. We need to level the playing field for small and mid-sized businesses. Multi-nationals are the only beneficiaries of free trade. This has been nothing short of ruinous for a large part of our country, and it's getting worse. These businesses aren't going out of businesses because they aren't competitive or efficient, they shut down because China engages in unfair trade practices like cutting their currency value in half, refusing to float their currency in the open market and instrad pegging it to the dollar, dumping their products, and taking huge losses on initial contracts in order to shut down US competition. And Washington--including Hoeffel and the DLC--does nothing about it.

We need to stand up to the "Free Traders", carry a big stick with China and others who violate the terms our of our trade agreements, and fight to bring those good jobs back. The alternative is the race to the bottom, where our only opportunities will be at the largest employer in PA: WalMart.

Join us Aug. 27th across the state for our first statewide MeetUp.

http://crystleforsenate.meetup.com/

--Charlie Crystle

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UpstateNYDem Donating Member (187 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. You mean
Like how the anti-free trade steel tariffs cost PA 200,000 jobs?
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. Do you know any union members in Pennsylvania?
Probably not from that statement you just made. My stepfather is Union and his family is Union. I'm going to a family picnic this weekend and I'll probably the only person there who isn't union or married to someone who is in a Union.

I'd like to invite you as my guest and I DARE you to say "Free Trade", "GATT, "NAFTA" or anything along those line.

Just warn me before you do it and let me know what blood type you'll need after you're finished. I'm not an advocate of violence and neither is my family and their friends. But decent folks don't say or support those type of things in their company. And Joe Hoeffel making statements like that will surely cost him voters in the election.
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. And like Crystale has any better chance
The one thing you forgot to admit is that poll had Specter's re-elect number below 50%. Hoeffel simply hasn't begun advertising and introducing himself to the voters.

Crystale has no experience, has held no office, and is a poor candidate. What does the DLC have to do with this?

I love it how you all blame everything on the DLC. It is soooo irrational.
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Vap Noose Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. I love it how you are so deviod of a discussion of the issues
What has Hoeffel ever done? He's been a bush-lite democrat who kissed the ass of Bush, and voted to invade Iraq, he's soooo 2002, which spells loser.

Crystle is a maverick, who as least has principles he will stand by in his votes.
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UpstateNYDem Donating Member (187 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Where are your issues?
What has Crystle ever done? He's never even been elected, all of 5 people in PA know his name. Crystle is a loser, he won't even win the primary, and he'll just do enough damage to ensure Hoeffel can't win. Yea, and the DLC did terrible in 2002, losing the governorships in critical swing states like PA, MI, AZ and NM, damn those losers!

Crystle is a Nader-lite Democrat who cares more about his ego then what the Democratic party stands for. Chuckie can talk about those principles he'll stand by all he wants because he will never have a chance to stand by them.

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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. At least Hoeffel has been elected to office
At least Hoeffel has held a tough seat in the House for three terms. What has Crystle ever done?
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Vap Noose Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Crystle has worked in the real world
Made real money, and worked for real change. Hoeffel is a career politician, he's spam to Charlie's Roast Beef.
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. 107th Congress Interest Group Ratings
Edited on Sun Aug-17-03 03:40 PM by goobergunch
      ADA  ACLU  AFSCME  LCV  ACU  NTLC  CHC
2002 95 87 89 88 4 8 0
2001 100 N/A 100 93 0 N/A N/A
ADA: Americans for Democratic Action
ACLU: American Civil Liberties Union
AFSCME: American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees
LCV: League of Conservation Voters
ACU: American Conservative Union
NTLC: National Tax Limitation Committee
CHC: Christian Coalition
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
25. Great meetup numbers </sarcasm>
Charlie Crystle Supporters Worldwide. So far, 21 have signed up.

Lancaster, PA (7 members)
Pittsburgh, PA (4)
Philadelphia, PA (3)
York-Hanover, PA (2)
Allentown, PA (1)
Du Bois, PA (1)
Portland, OR (1)
Scranton--Wilkes-Barre, PA (1)
Wilmington, DE (1) <--LynneSin from DU

http://crystleforsenate.meetup.com/members/


ANYWAY...

I'll pledge here and now to support Charlie Crystle if he is nominated, although I support Hoeffel in the primary.

Will you pledge to support Hoeffel if nominated?
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Vap Noose Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. OF course
I'm a Democrat. By the wa, Crystle's meetup numbers are not that bad... for instance, Hoeffel's current number is 0. Crystle's 21 places him sixth amongst all gubernatorial and Senate cadidates, more than Barbara Boxer and Russ Feingold...

Barack Obama for Senate (>200 members)
Blair Hull for Senate (58)
Peter Ueberroth for Governor (38)
Eric Fingerhut for Senate (29)
Gery Chico for Senate (22)
Charlie Crystle for Senate (21)
Dan Hynes for Senate (15)
Barbara Boxer for Senate (13)
Buddy Leach for Governor (13)
Andy McKenna for Senate (8)
Patrick Leahy for Senate (7)
Russ Feingold for Senate (7)
Ben Chandler for Governor (7)
Mitch Daniels for Governor (6)
Bobby Jindal for Governor (5)
Ron Wyden for Senate (5)
Blanche Lincoln for Senate (5)
Nancy Skinner for Senate (5)
John McCain for Senate (5)
Barbara Mikulski for Senate (4)
Vi Simpson for Governor (4)
Joe Andrew for Governor (3)
Hunt Downer for Governor (3)
Kathleen Blanco for Governor (2)
Ernie Fletcher for Governor (2)
Ronnie Musgrove for Governor (2)
Eric Miller for Governor (1)
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. Yeah and this is also his first month with Meetup
And I'm proud to be the Wilmington member. How is Joe Hoeffel reaching out and getting name recognition? Or is he just assuming that since he has "experience" that he'll have a cakewalk? His experience means NOTHING outside the philly area - they don't know who he is.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
33. Joe Hoeffel's support of Free Trade will not win him Central PA
and other areas outside of the Philadelphia region.

My family has been affected by the thousands of jobs that our country has lost thanks to our screwed up "Free Trade" practices. You try telling someone who worked for Bethlehem Steel that Joe Hoeffel is a better choice and when they find out that Joe supports "Free Trade" they'll chase you out of the state. Mind you, Specter is no better in this area, but these people will stick with Specter over some democratic practicing "Free Trade" any election.

Joe Hoeffel will cost democrats the Union vote and is a poor choice for the nomination. And let's face it, if you don't get the Union vote you're not going to win in the state. Even though many statewide unions were first opposed to Ed Rendell, the Philly unions helped keep him in the race and help push him ahead because they knew Ed's practices with the Unions initially seemed bad but ultimately brought union jobs to the Philly area.

But you say "Free Trade" to a member of the Union, especially when trying to recruit republican-leaning Union voters - forget it, they won't even consider it. But PA will split their votes; how else can you explain Clinton and Gore always winning PA and yet we aren't able to win a democratic senator.

It's all about the Unions and Joe Hoeffel won't get them with "Free Trade" voting!
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. One thing
No Democrat would "win" Central PA in any event. Cumberland, Lancaster, Dauphin, Adams, York, Perry, Snyder, Fulton, Franklin, et al aren't going to vote Democratic. They vote reliably Republican in most races.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Very true but....
Edited on Mon Aug-18-03 12:50 PM by LynneSin
If you don't keep close in those areas it'll hurt overall. People in Central PA WILL vote whereas many times you can't count on the votes in more democratic leaning areas like Philly, Pittsburgh and Allentown/Bethlehem.

So for a democrat to win he/she either has to be immensely popular in Philadelphia in order to drag an enormous number of voters out in the area (AKA Ed Rendell) OR you have to win the cities and hold close in the rest of the state. Joe Hoeffel is NOT Ed Rendell and does not have the type of support that will draw presidental election numbers out in a primary (something that Rendell did in the primaries for general election). Hoeffel does NOT have the bonus of an early enough primary where Pennsylvanians feel like they're giving their 2 cents in the decision of who will be the democratic nomination (AKA NH, Iowa and Super Tuesday States like Michigan and South Carolina). So Joe can just overlook central PA, but only if he really doesn't want to win the job.

And your total disregard shows you really haven't been to Central PA lately and seen what's been going on. I had the honor of attending a rally in PA on the Capital Steps that had over 500 Union members in attendence and this around the same time as the start of the Iraq War. And these folks WEREN'T there for/against the war, they were there demanding that our government do something about Universal Healthcare. The Unions now more than ever are getting organized and are taking this upcoming election more serious than before. Many of these people, folks who voted for Santorum and now seriously regret it, are reading up on the issues and care about things like Universal Health Care and Free Trade. Maybe this will make Specter more vulnerable but if it's another Free Trade candidate they'll stick with Specter.

So sure, Hoeffel can just piss off Central PA and hope he'll win based on the Philly vote. But I hope he has alternative careers planned out with that strategy in PA.

PS: Did you vote in the poll I created. Seems no one is really keen on letting the state pick the candidate. But in all fairness, before I leave to run errands for the day, I'll create an experience vs. non and see how that turns out.
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Well
Any Dem has to hold his own in Central PA, but the area should not be given a full court press as it is heavily Republican. Bring out the few Democrats who live there out. Trying to reach independents runs the real risk of bringing out conservatives. Then again, by targetting people, I guess that you can figure out how to bring out the liberal independents.

I have been in Central PA lately. I went to a wedding there a few weeks ago. I lived there for four years.

As for the unions I am glad that they are involved more. They might make the difference.

Crystle called me on the phone; and based on my phone conversation with me, he does seem like a decent candidate for office. I do think his campaign can be credible.

But I am still in Hoeffel's court. That might change as the primary season continues. I still think, though, that while Crystle's campaign is noble and idealistic--I have the utmost respect for the man (That he would call me to talk about his campaign impressed me a great deal)--I just don't think he has what it takes to win this race.

Now, if Hoeffel were not in the race, I would support Crystle without hestitation. And if Crystle does win the nomination I would support him enthuisiastically in the general election.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I'm sure that was what Tim Holden was saying
Edited on Mon Aug-18-03 01:18 PM by LynneSin
How did Tim Holden fair against republican George Gekas in his 2002 US Representative Race? Just out of curiousity how many votes did Holden lose to Gekas. Holden just didn't have a chance in those republican counties like Lebanon, Dauphin and Perry, why didn't he just save his money and go home?

:eyes:

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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. He lost those counites in his race against Gekas
Edited on Mon Aug-18-03 01:25 PM by jiacinto
And frankly Holden will always have tough re-elections in that seat. His victory is an anamoly. When he retires that seat will flip back to the Republicans. The last Democrat to represent Harrisburg last won in 1980 and for him to win, if I recall, they had to extend the seat all the way to Scranton.

Lebanon, Dauphin, and Perry counties all went for Gekas. Schulykill, where Holden won 72% of the vote, and Berks counties were what pushed Holden across the finish line.

Source: http://us.cnn.com/ELECTION/2002/pages/states/PA/H/17/county.000.html
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. He won the area
Edited on Mon Aug-18-03 01:40 PM by LynneSin
He ran a good strategy to win it too. I'm sure Tim didn't just give up on Lebanon, Perry and Dauphin counties. And since Tim has been getting out there to the Union rallies he's starting to gain support in those republican leaning counties. Sure he may not win them, but it'll help re-elections.

I am not asking anyone to support Charlie Crystle. What I'm asking is that folks stop this "He should drop out, he's some rich guy with ego and that has no experience"

Right now Joe Hoeffel (and for that matter Charlie Crystle) don't stand a chance beating Arlen Specter (who does have a primary too and I know the neo-cons don't want Pat Toomey to back out). Neither of them have much name recognition although yes, Hoeffel has a little bit more since he is a US Representive.

If Hoeffel and Crystle run a clean race it'll help get them excellent name recognition across the state. It'll help them get their issues out there now and in the long run make the ultimate winner more electable in what will still be a tough race against Specter. Pennsylvania democrats did screw up in the Santorium re-election because there were too many candidates. Some of those candidates cancelled each other out (ie the 2 candidates from the Philly area) and we were stuck with a candidate who didn't have much money OR name recognition even after the primaries were done.

Hopefully Hoeffel and Crystle will play it clean, but this "wash-out dot.com guy looking for a job" doesn't really play well ESPECIALLY since Crystle was never in the dot.com industry and personally I think it makes Joe Hoeffel look bad: like he doesn't really have anything else to run on so his people will start with the name calling.

And on an edit note, I don't think you've ever seen me once stating that you should all be supporting Crystle. My only request is you let the guy run. Don't pull this "He'll cost us the US Senate crap" because we need more than one seat and I hope the fate of the majority of the Dems controling the senate again are not based on our chances of beating a popular 5 term incumbant republican senator. WE may not like Specter, but alot of folks in PA think he's ok. Again statements like the "He'll cost us the US Senate" are basically statements that to me say "I really have no clue why my candidate is any better than yours so I'll try this idiotic guilt of the free nation statement and see if folks cling to that one"
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. He still lost Dauphin, Lebanon, and Perry Counties
Large margins in the Reading area are what pushed him to victory. Harrisburg and vicinity stuck with Gekas decisively.

Crystle called me and sounds credible. Frankly, though, I still think Hoeffel would be a better candidate.

Crystle would be a great candidate if Hoeffel weren't running. However, as I told him on the phone, his lack of holding elective office is an issue with me.

He is a nice man and I think he could run a decent campaign. I just think Hoeffel has a better chance of winning than Crystile. It isn't personal, but I will wait and see what happens. Maybe he might convince me otherwise over time.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Ack, I need to stop editing my messages
Edited on Mon Aug-18-03 01:46 PM by LynneSin
But as I posted above this on re-edit:

Let the guy run. I'm tired of this "He should drop out crap" because it's just that. If Hoeffel supporters like yourself can come out with what you just posted earlier - then we've got a good, clean race in PA. I'm just frustrated when I see posts that think he'll be the demise of the democratic majority in the senate and stuff like the republicans probably help convince Crystle to run"

Personally, if we are to take control of the Senate, we should not be looking to Pennsylvania as the state that will help us win it. I worked for the Lynn Yeakel campaign in 1992 and I really thought she had what it takes to beat Specter, but she narrowly lost too. I can't understand the appeal of Arlen Specter, but folks seem to like him in the state and that makes it a tough campaign for any democrat.
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I'll tell you what my concern is
For both candidates I worry that there may be a bloody primary, which forces both men to eat through their precious campaign funds and leaves the eventual winner broke going into the general election.

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