Poll shows gay rights backlash

[Nicholas_J]

More than half of Americans favor a law banning gay marriage and specifying that wedlock be between a man and a woman, an Associated Press poll has found. The survey also found that presidential candidates could face a backlash if they support gay marriage or civil unions, which provide gay couples the legal rights and benefits of marriage. The poll, conducted for the AP by ICR-International Communications Research of Media, Pa., found that 52% of respondents favor a law banning gay marriage, while 41% oppose such a law.

About four in 10--41%--support allowing civil unions, roughly the same level found in an AP poll conducted three years ago. But 53% now say they oppose civil unions, up from 46% in the earlier survey. The increase came largely from people who previously were undecided, the polls suggested.

Close to half those surveyed said they would be less likely to support a presidential candidate who backs civil unions (44%) or gay marriage (49%), while only around 10% said they would be more likely.

"I don't think it's a great idea; the whole idea of marriage is bringing up children," said Jim Martin, a 64-year-old engineer from Alexandria, Va. "If somebody was promoting it, I would vote against them."

http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp?ID=9618&sd=08/19/03

[dsc]

1. I presume that you will apologize now

for your claims that Dean lacked courage when he signed the law in favor of civil unions. Somehow I doubt it but fantasies are nice.

[Northwind]

2. Oh, don't worry

He won't

[w4rma]

13. Yup, I've *never* seen Nicholas_J apologize or retract, *anything* (n/t)

[acerbic]

9. It's the impeccable intellectual honesty, consistency and logic

of a "researcher", dontcha know... :eyes:

[Nicholas_J]

16. Of course not

That was then, ths is now. Dean waited until his decision in Vermont showed him nice and safe to run again.

You people have NO sense of timing.

[renie408]

23. Oh dear..

This isn't really a selling point on Kerry for me. I mean, if you are saying that he is anti-civil union. Every time I hear some neanderthal say, "Marriage is between a man and a woman and otter stay that durn way.", it makes my skin crawl.

A) MARRIAGE can be a largely religious union and therefore is not the concern of government.

B) CIVIL UNIONS are a contract between two people, whose gender should remain unnoted, to take certain responsibilities toward each other.

In other words, I don't think that government should have squat to say about marriage, but should acknowledge a civil union. If you happen to choose to have a marriage ceremony to dress up your civil union, woo hoo for you. But that does not change the fact that the legally binding part of the marriage has nothing to do with religion.

I sincerely hope that if they had a chance to have it presented to them fairly, most people would recognize the humanity and logic in allowing civil unions. I don't think I should be able to stop two Rednecks from uniting and having kids, I don't see why they think they should stop anybody else.

[dsc]

24. What a crock of shit?

Evidently you didn't bother to read even the quoted part of the article which you posted. It states, in plain English, that support for Civil Unions is 41% which is indisinguishable from the support it had when Dean signed it according to polls YOU POSTED.

Also he had to know a backlash would come GIVEN THE DEATH THREATS HE GOT. But of course how would I know anything about this it isn't like I got the shit beat out of me for being gay (no wait it is lke that)

[DrFunkenstein]

3. There Is A Difference Between Not Forcing Them And Banning Them

I hope the candidates will make that clear. We should be against forcing churches to accept gay marriage, but we should also be against forcing them to forbid it.

I also believe in gay adoption, but I realize that perhaps the country is not ready for it. Then again, they weren't ready for giving equal rights to blacks, either.

<>

James Baldwin, one of the greatest writers of the 20th century.

[dsc]

4. what we have to make clear

is what this amendment actually does (ban ANY form of recognition of same sex relationships by ANY governmental entity). We also have to hope that people won't vote for that. Sadly this poll suggests that a majority would and even worse that a substantial minority would not vote for candidates who didn't.

[DrFunkenstein]

5. I'm Trying To Think The Best Of Americans

I hope that this trend is nothing more than a speedbump on the road to justice.

[MercutioATC]

6. Show me a trend...otherwise it's all crap.

ANY individual poll may differ greatly from the general trend. As a "researcher", Nick, I'm surprised you'd post one abberant poll as a statement. The trend has been toward accepting same-sex unions.

You DO realize that, in giving this poll credance, that you're not only attacking Dean (a normal thing for you), but you're also giving weight to an anomoly which supports anti-gay sentiments?

You're going to have to pick your hatchet jobs more carefully...you're beginning to support arguements that aleniate what we ALL should be supporting....support and equal protection for ALL Americans.

[LimpingLib]

7. Nick is right.

The American people generally want to be tolerant but I honestly think they feel like it more along the lines of a practising homosexual being shy and ashamed of what they do (yet never the less being able to do what they want without discrimination). Just when polls show a trend in a positive direction then something big happens and for some reason once the public sees an open homosexual boast on TV about gains then they (the public)realize its much more progress than they can handle.

Anyway Nick is looking at all the polls.

I always have said that a politician wont be hurt that much for being Pro Gay Rights. Polls started to gradulally prove me ultimatly right. Now the backlash has made me reconsider. Now my new conculsion is that I was right all along but it only works if homosexual activists try to stay off TV as much as possible and dont get into fierce arguments with right wingers plus are shy about celebrating and all the side demonstrations while the issue gets hot. Unfortunatily the homosexual activists touched a hot oven and should have let it cool down IMO. Thats the reality we live in.Not saying I like it. (not taking away credit right wing bigots deserve either )

[sandnsea]

8. Active not combative

I really wanted to see gays come out strong for civil unions. I think people were ready for that. I knew if the right got a hold of gay marriage before the left got a hold of civil unions, it'd end up just like this. There's time to change it back around, but it's going to take an amount of mainstream gay activists who are willing to talk about legal rights and wanting to make solid family units for the children they already have. It's not fair, but it's a step forward.

[MercutioATC]

10. That's like saying that blacks should have kept quiet.

Saying that GLBT Americans can best realize their goal for real equality is akin to saying that blacks would have done better to have shut up. EVERY person deserves the same protections under the law. Your religion has problems with it? Fine. The law shouldn't, however. I'm not gay, but I absolutely believe that ALL Americans, regardless of sexual orientation, should be treated equally, and I'm NOT about to asume that the way to accomplish this is to be quiet.

[LimpingLib]

17. People can and WILL do whatever people do.

The problem is that the polls have been pretty significant in their regressive nature since the Supreme Court decision. I remember a significant majority supported legality of homosexuality 3 months ago now its tied at 48-48. Support for civil unions was roughly even around 47% now its only 40% for and 57% against. There has been a 15%+ swing in just 3 months and for the worse.

So yes I know nobody is going to "shut up" but I still think its a main reason for the backlash . Its a reality that needs to be pointed out even if it wont be the solution or even a part of the solution (people shutting up isnt going to happen in any way shape or form).

I think the solution could be a long difficult road as the minority population rises (which is an otherwise great thing)and the general climate for Pro Homosexual positions slowly worsens . I have always said that could be the only stumbling block for homosexual rights but now it seems the native (ie white)population has had a significant change of heart that frankly I didnt expect . I expected some outrage from the nation to be honest but a swing of nearly 20% has me suprized. Its a real backlash no matter how you slice it.

[MercutioATC]

21. Where's the "backlash"? One or two polls? Like I said, it's just BS

until there is a definite trend, and we don't have one here.

Even if it BECOMES a trend, that's all the more reason to press the issue. Equality is equality, and that's one issue on which we shouldn't compromise.

[LimpingLib]

25. This issue is more tricky than simply fighing as a solution.

The advancment of gay rights will be one that as the country advances economicaly and academicaly then people will have far more important things to do than worry about what somebody does in their private lives.

Outright fighting isnt really feasible over all. Educated elites have it right on civil libertys thankully. The media is very effective in improving the cliamate for acceptance of gay rights. We need to improve our social services (higher education for all would move mountains) to lift the boats of all Americans and hope this latest bump (more like a crash)in the road passes by and slowly the public can gradualy get back on the slow track toward tolerance and ultimatly full acceptance.

This issue is one you almost have to wait it out and just hope for the best and follow the polls.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

11. roughly half...

Like so many questions, the country is evenly divided.

But... aren't most of our candidates in general agreement on this issue? Which candidates are opposed to civil unions?

[dsc]

14. The problem isn't the total percents

it is the more likely to vote vs less likely to vote percentages. Over the years, and evidently now, this issue has a split on this which favors the anti gay position. These numbers are quite troubling if at all true.

As to your second point there is a pretty large difference between signing the bill and merely being in favor of something. Any of the other CU supporters (Kerry, Graham, Edwards, Gephardt, Lieberman) can downplay it to a significant extent.

The things that I am happy about though are Dean's speeches in places like New Hampshire and Iowa. He discusses this issue in depth and still gets applause. While these are presumedly somewhat more liberal audiences than average it still is an encouraging sign. Threads here show that being liberal isn't necessarily the same as being pro gay rights.

[DrFunkenstein]

12. Richard Goldstein On The Backlash Brewing

Goldstein is the guy who brought us the hilarious article about Bush's enhanced-crotch flightsuit and its relation to John Kerry:

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0321/goldstein.php

Now here he is talking about the possibility of a backlash against gay rights:

"This is a moment of woe and wonder for supporters of gay rights. The Episcopalians elected their first openly gay bishop, braving a last-minute sex scandal and the threat of schism.

The Massachusetts Supreme Court is about to rule on legalizing gay unions. The first LGBT high school is set to open in New York City. And Jay Leno got a makeover from the boys of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy.

But there are also signs of a serious backlash."

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0332/goldstein.php

[dsc]

15. This poll

if accurate, is mostly depressing. The raw numbers aren't that bad. 53 to 41 on civil unions is within reason for a cutting edge issue like this one is. What is deeply disturbing is the more likely less likely numbers. For civil unions it is 44 to 10 and for same sex marriage it is 49 to 10. Both against the gay position. The only sort of good news out of that is presumedly same sex marriage isn't as bad on this scale as previously thought.

This does go to show though just how courageous Dean was on this issue. Presumedly he was looking at somewhat similar numbers. Yet he went ahead and did the right thing. That shows us the best possible way out. Do the right thing, explain why, and fight like hell.

[western mass]

18. suspect polls don't tell the whole story

I think most people don't have a real understanding of the difference between civil unions and marriage. Bigots & ideologues have certainly done their best to make the two things the same at the emotional level. I doubt many polls make an attempt to clarify the difference between the two things.

I'm willing to accept that many, many Americans have a gut-level, knee-jerk reaction against homosexuality. I also suspect that a great number of those people have the basic sense of fairness and decency to accept (or be easily persuaded to accept) basic rights like insurance benefits, etc. at the purely civil level. I suspect those numbers aren't accurately reflected in these polls.

[dusty64]

19. This poll doesn't jibe

with a bunch of others lately showing increased acceptance for civil unions. Maybe the word "marriage" is the hot button here, I'd be willing to drop it as long as the rights and benefits are the same (its really only a word).

[genius]

20. The gays who understand Dean's position don't like him either

Dean's refusal to go out on a limb for gay rights and his only going as far as he was forced to go won't get him any respect from any gays who bother to look at where he really stands.

[dsc]

22. You know what gays really, really hate

is when straights like you presume we are idiotic airheads who can't read or think for ourselves. I have to say that if I thought Kucinich even knew who the Hell you were I wouldn't vote for him if he were the last man on earth.

[renie408]

26. I would have thought...

that gays, like any other group of people, would really, really hate being lumped together.

That would be like somebody saying, "All fat, white southern housewives long to join the Junior League." Now, see, I would have a problem with a statement like that. I am a fat, white, southern housewife and I want to be a Daughter of the American Revolution.

Sorry, it is after midnight and my sense of humor gets a little weird this late at night.

Seriously, how can anybody say, "Most" Anybody thinks X?? It is times like this that I have to hunt up a calendar and remind myself that it really is 2003.

[dsc]

27. You have a valid point

I just get very sick of these people who are not gay themselves presuming I haven't a clue about gay issues. It isn't just that poster but a couple of others. Newsflash I do know what it is like to be gay and I do follow current events. But as you validly point out I should have stuck to me and not said all gays.

[renie408]

28. Goofus...

I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the guy that presumed to know how gays who 'understand Dean's position' feel.

It would irritate me if someone thought that they could predict my thoughts and feelings on anything based on something as incidental as who I sleep with, that is what I meant. I would think that you must get sick and tired of people thinking that your sexual preference is an indicator of how you are going to react to certain things. It is only one part of your life, right? Cause I know mine is only one part of my life. ROFL!! I almost said something about "And that part gets smaller every year" and then I thought about the implication of that statement should my husband read it!!

[dsc]

29. Sorry

I usually look at hte little blue number to see who a statement replies to. I didn't this time. My bad and yes you are quite correct on not wanting to be assumed to be thinking x due to being gay.