The standards of the anti Dean smearers

[dsc]

Yet again we have a smear of Dean. Yet again it has been spread on DU. And yet again we have no standards.

I am sure you have seen the threads saying Dean wanted to appoint judges to "quickly convict guilty criminals". Too bad that there are several huge flaws in their documentation.

1st Dean supposedly gave this interview to the Vermont News Bureau. I have spend considerable time and effort trying to track this down. So far I have found nothing to even indicate that such an organization exists. No web site, no email addy, no links to stories sighting them apart from the one with the smear. Do they exist? Maybe. But I am beginning to wonder.

2nd there are two places, and only two places, where I have found this story mentioned. One is a story by a man who sued a judge and doesn't bother to mention that in his story (if you go to his link then you see it is him). The other by someone who has no way to contact him on his site. Not once did anyone posting this bother to mention the obvious personal interest of the first writer.

3rd Searches for a transcript, story about, or any mention of this interview have turned up not a thing. Emailing the author netted a I only have a hard source. No response when I asked where he got it so I could get one.

So we have the following. Dean is accused of saying seven words by a man with an axe to grind and a man who can't even be contacted about his work. The first man never mentions his axe to grind even as he reports the events in that story. The organization to which Dean supposedly said those seven words shows no sign of existing. Dilligent serches on more than one occassion yielded no transcript or unbiased report of the supposed interview. Next time these bashers post something keep their standards in mind. I sure will.


Here is a link to the second author (and several other anti Dean things) The link is the last one in the top category.

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=22835&mesg_id=22938&page=

[searchingforlight]

1. Can you give the thread for the original bash?

[Cha]

2. Thank you for doing all this work, dsc! I know how strongly

you believe in fairness...it shows in your posts!

BTW, I haven't heard of this one. What axe did the man have to grind?

[acerbic]

7. The guy seems to have pissed off a judge in Vermont

...and holds Dean personally responsible:

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=11965
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22scott+huminski%22&btnG=Google+Search

[diamondsoul]

3. That bites.

I'm sorry you all have to deal with that kind of BS. I'm not a fan of Dean, myself but if I need to defend that stand, I can do it without making things up out of thin air.

[Ripley]

4. It reminds me of wasps in the autumn.

They know cold weather is coming and they're going to die, so they get really nasty and attack vehemently.

[Cha]

5. I didn't know that! I'll be careful!

W.A.S.P.'s can be just as Nasty!

[Ripley]

6. Unfortunately, I know this from personal experience.

I used to carry a wasp kit around (to shoot myself up with adrenalin so I don't go into anaphylactic shock, but got tired of having to renew it. I'm just a careful gardener these days.

I'm trying to igore the wasps at DU lately, but damn it's getting really hard to avoid them!

:hi:

[blm]

8. Thom Hartmann LIED? Wow...

It seems so unlike him. I always respected his work.

[dsc]

9. I have no idea

because people on your side have no standards. No one has posted boo about him. No one has posted a contact for him. No one has posted a link to the original article. All of these have been asked for. I can't find a contact for him at his site. If people posting anti Dean posts had any standards we might know if he lied or if he didn't.

[blm]

10. Thom Hartmann has a site and a radio show.

People post Hartmann's work here all the time. It's hard to believe he would just make this whole incident up.

[dsc]

12. He may just be relying on the other guy

and just being a poor jounalist. I have no earthly idea. If you give me a place to contact him I will ask him.

[blm]

15. First, are we talking about the same situation?

Our Government Needs Good Citizens
by Thom Hartmann

>>>>
In July of 1997, Vermont governor Howard Dean announced that he wanted to appoint to the Vermont Supreme Court a justice who would consider "common sense more important than legal technicalities" and "quickly convict guilty criminals."

It’s probably a testimonial to the good job public education has done in Vermont that there wasn’t a public uprising against him (although the Montpelier newspaper’s letters-to-the-editor section was filled with invective for several weeks). Certainly this is a statement that would not have been acceptable to the people who made Vermont the second independent Caucasian-run nation in North America (after Texas). The founding fathers of Vermont, which dropped its independent-nation status to become the USA’s 14th state in 1779, knew all too well the dangers of a government unconstrained by the "technicalities" of the law. They’d seen it when the British forced them to house soldiers, shot or hung them for speaking out against the King, and allowed them to engage in commerce or own property
only if they gave a portion of their wealth to England. They realized that the government has most of the guns and all the power, and that it’s only "legal technicalities" which keep any government at bay. They fought and many of them died to put those "technicalities" into place. When politicians like Dean call for "swift and certain conviction of the guilty" (which actually means "swift and certain conviction of the accused, since a person is only guilty when they’ve been convicted…at least as of the date of this writing) in the courts of the state "regardless of technicalities," I imagine our founding fathers roll over in their graves.
>>>>>
http://www.thomhartmann.com/government.shtml

[dsc]

16. Yes that is the one

He provides no site for that at all. It appears, in somewhat different form, in one other place. Since neither person provides a citation and I don't know who wrote which one first, I have no idea if he is relying on Scott or Scott is relying on him or if they did this independent of each other. Thus he could be lying, he could be honestly mistaken and relying on Scott or he could be misquoting or he could be right. Again since the people posting have no standards and did no work to find out we don't know.

[blm]

17. But, posting Thom Hartmann

has always been as acceptable as posting any other known writer from the left, so, I don't understand why you blame others for not going further to dissect Hartmann's work. No one complains when Hartmann writes something flattering about Dean.

[dsc]

18. This is the only time I recall

seeing him quoted at all. Perhaps you could site some of his pro Dean writings. Perhaps you give me the contact info I asked your for. Perhaps then I could honestly evaluate what he wrote. You are very big on asking others for proof. Yet you seem very intent on not providing any.

[blm]

26. I posted his site link with the article.

And many others here put up Hartmann articles all the time. What am I supposed to do, get his personal address for you? I didn't see you so worked up about all the articles that were put up against Kerry by the S&B patrol.

And when in the rare moment I do ask someone for proof, it is to find out if the source is with Dems or against us.

YOU have this issue in your craw....I gave you what I saw...YOU go harrass Hartmann if you think he's a liar.

[dsc]

27. You purported he put up pro Dean artilces

I want to see them. You made the charge you prove it. Or can't you.

[blm]

35. Taunt away....but, check out Dean's own blogs fer chrissakes.

Hartmann is all over the Dean blogs. "Or can't you" MY ASS, dsc. You hide behind some standard that you have for everyone BUT those on your side. Hell, I never gave credence to the counterpunch article on Dean. As much as I distrust Dean, I distrust counterpunch's spin just as much.

New Thom Hartmann Radio Program
... This Week on the Nationally Syndicated Radio Show. The Thom Hartmann Program.
Can Howard Dean Win in 2004? JOE TRIPPI. Campaign Manager – Dean for America. ...
www.opednews.com/Hartmann_Radio_program.htm - 19k

[dsc]

37. Dean was on Russert too

Kerry goes on Imus are we now to assume that Russert endorses Dean and Imus endorses Kerry? I want a PRO DEAN ARTICLE AUTHORED BY THIS MAN POSTED BY YOU. That is what you claimed has been posted here. If so then produce it. Since you also chose to characterize our responses to it I would also like the thread but can understand if that isn't produced. BUT YOU HAVE CLAIMED THIS MAN WROTE PRO DEAN ARTICLES (note the plural) PRODUCE THEM OR AT LEAST ONE.

[blm]

50. Go to Dean's Fockin' OWN BLOGS...fer chrissakes

Hartmannn columns are all over the place.

YOU may have time...I have a two year old who wants to me to find chimpanzees when she sees the google page.

[dsc]

52. Why should I do your research for you?

This is your charge. You claim these articles were posted here (not on Dean's blog). You claim we Dean supporters reacted in a certain way. Why in God's name is it my responsiblity to back your charges up? If you don't wish to back up what you alledge then get out of the alledging business.

[blm]

54. Listen, dsc...

I lost alot of my bookmarks and links after suffering two lightning strikes, one two weeks after the other. If you follow the posts here, you would know that little detail. Instead you pester away because you get a bug up your butt. You can call me any damn thing you want, accuse me of anything, but, no matter what, I have never lied and I know it.

Several active Dean supporters here have posted that Hartmann supports Dean. Why don't you hound them and see if they were lying.

YOU are acting like a board nanny.

[dsc]

60. You could have said so

You incidently could have said that Dean supporters were saying he supports Dean. I am not a mind reader. You claimed that these articles were posted here. I have massive difficulties searching here due to system problems (which I have also mentioned previously). I am sorry you are having difficulties. Had you mentioned that even one time in this several post discussion I wouldn't have asked again. I am sorry I am not Carnac.

[lastliberalintexas]

32. Perhaps

But if Hartman can't get HISTORICAL FACTS correct in his writing, I have a problem believing the rest of it without cites.

Just so you know and despite Hartman's assertion in the article, Vermont was NOT "the second independent Caucasian-run nation in North America (after Texas)." Texas did not become a nation independent of the Mexican government until 1836 (the Texicans declared independence on 3/2/1836, with the decisive battle being fought at San Jacinto on 4/21/1836). By that time, Vermont had long been a state in the Union.


Nope, I don't believe Dean is God or perfect or without faults or beyond criticism. But without seeing a proper quote and cite for the quote, we are unable to properly evaluate either his meaning or intent. At this point, who knows what was really said and in what context?

[dsc]

34. In fairness he may not mean in terms of time

but just as a list. It is a poor construction but not necessarily historically ignorant.

[lastliberalintexas]

41. Maybe

But either way, it is sloppy journalism. I don't read much of his work, and maybe this article is an exception to his normally brilliant and scholarly writings. But, this particular article is for the most part either poorly researched or poorly written.

[dsc]

43. to be honest

I had never heard of the man. I found the article to be both poorly written and not very fact based. It seemed like a screed more than an honest report. Sometime I feel like this is Wonderland where words mean what Dean bashers say they mean and nothing else.

[madfloridian]

19. I just checked it and he just repeats it without the original quote.

He is trustworthy, but he should provide the original quote.

[dsc]

21. Since I can't contact him

will you and find out what his source is? It is irritating that we have to do both our and our opponents research but clearly they won't.

[renie408]

28. Do you really do...

background checks on every single article that you post here? I am new here and I don't want to screw up, but I don't have the time to do the fact checking on every single web or newspaper article that I post. I figure that it is up to the reporter writing the article to do that.

Also, is it completely from outer space for Dean to have made the comment? When you speak pretty much constantly for a living (or in the hopes of obtaining a particular living), isn't it possible that you could stick your foot in your mouth every once in awhile? You appear to think that it is completely inconceivable that Dean could have ever said this. It seems to me that it goes along with some other stuff he has said and therefore, it is not unreasonable for him to have made this one badly worded comment.

[dsc]

33. I would never post such a badly cut quote

without having an original source. I am not saying he couldn't have said this. But when all of the following are true:

a) one person who says he did has an axe to grind and the other has no contact info

b) the organization to which he supposedly said it shows no sign of existing

c) diligent searches and repeated requests turn up no original sources

just what am I supposed to think? This is hardly the first time Dean bashers have told stories they liked and not the truth.

[blm]

39. The links are the same for us as for you.

And why is this quote different from any others of Dean's words and actions in the past that show he is a "law and order" type governor. The Vermont reporter on Cspan said the exact same thing. Dean sides with the conservatives on issues regarding the justice system.

[dsc]

42. again no citation

No name, no date, no nothing. The Vermont reporter on CSPAN!!!! Might there be more than one reporter in Vermont? Just what kind of link or cite is that. Is this the standards you think are OK? Would you accept such crap in regards to Kerry? I am sure I can find reporters in Massachusetts that would tell all kinds of stories you wouldn't like. Unlinke you I have standards.

[blm]

49. Y, know, dsc...there were a couple threads here

that covered the Cspan appearance by the reporter from the Burlington Press. Sorry you missed them, or that you don't remember them. It was a couple months ago.

You don't mind all those posts that flatter Dean as this or that without any citatation, but, you sure act as board nanny when it suits you.

And further, I put up with all sorts of strories put up about Kerry. That's the way it goes. YOU don't do me any favors by acting like you're above it all when you really aren't as fair and balanced as you claim. On occasion you have been, but, you certainly distort it by hounding others who have posted as many links as they can to satisfy your board nanny tendencies.

[dsc]

53. again no cite

and of course it isn't your fault it is mine. Fancy that. You and so many other Dean bashers simply act astounded when we won't do your work for you. It isn't my fault you refused to even give the Burlington Press as part of your first post. It isn't my fault you refused to give any sort of date in your first post. Again why should I do your research for you? This is typical Dean bashing it is all everyone else's fault behavior. You refuse to back up your charges and expect everyone else to do so.

[blm]

55. Wrong...you are just unreasonable

BOARD NANNY.

You blame others for what you may have missed, so you berate them for not accessing a link.

There are other Deanies who do the exact opposite, and complain that a link was posted so many times they are sick of seeing it. Nice game you have going.

[DrFunkenstein]

11. Is This Like The Smear That Kerry Was "Fooled" On Iraq?

Not that two wrongs make a right. I haven't even looked at the link, yet. But I know that some Dean people have spread their share of untruths.

[acerbic]

14. Now that you mention it (and only because of that)...

Is This Like The "Smear" That Kerry Was "Fooled" On Iraq?

No: this is not as much fun as your furious spinning, denying direct quotes from Kerry saying that he (and others) were misled (in other word fooled).

[DrFunkenstein]

20. No Dean Supporters Are The Ones Denying Extended Quotes

And the ones that refuse to believe anything except the soundbite the GOP lifts from Kerry's speech. There is a whole rest of the article that you (ahem) conveniently ignore.

Furious spinning time - did Dean say he was "misled?" Not "we," but him personally?

Because if you do, I've got a nice chink of Meet The Press just waiting for you.

[dsc]

22. What extended quote are you talking about?

I have repeatedly asked in thread after thread for an extended quote of his 1997 comments in regards to judges. I have gotten nothing. If you have it share if not then just what are you taking about.

[w4rma]

23. You are saying that Kerry wasn't misled by Bush's lies, DrFunkenstein?

…
Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry said Wednesday that President Bush broke his promise to build an international coalition against Iraq's Saddam Hussein
…
''I will not let him off the hook throughout this campaign with respect to America's credibility and credibility to me, because if he lied he lied to me personally,'' he said.
…
http://truthout.org/docs_03/061903A.shtml
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=21271&mesg_id=21271

[Feanorcurufinwe]

13. I also consider that quote to be unsubstantiated.

That link was included in the referenced thread by mistake. I tried to follow up on it like dsc and got just as far. Although I think the 'Vermont News Bureau' is probably now:

Vermont Press Bureau
112 Main Street
Montpelier, VT 05602
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

But as far as the quote in the Hartmann article, I agree it is not substantiated.

[Egnever]

24. Geezus man!

You continue to amaze!

[CoffeePlease1947]

25. You should not pay any attention to negative posts of candidates

Your willingness to post this thread only gives them credability. Just ignore them and they will go away. Now you have created two bad posts on Dean instead of letting the one just die. Why do you do this?

Mike

[renie408]

29. Now that is smart...

Good point.

[dsc]

31. Because we ignored false, slander about Gore

and look where we are now. I will challenge every lie no matter where it eminates from. Liars of the left will get no free pass.

[renie408]

36. Now its a lie?

A few minutes ago it was an unfounded allegation.

Look, nobody ignored anything with Gore. Or maybe you did, but you are not personally responsible for his not getting elected. Clinton screwed Gore (I will just take all the 'Clinton screwing' jokes as read) and Gore screwed himself because he lacks any kind of personal appeal. I KNOW that is not a good reason not to vote for somebody, but it is reality. People want to LIKE the President. They want to vote for somebody they could bump into in the store and strike up a conversatin with, somebody they are comfortable around. I KNOW that anybody smart and driven enough to be President is unlikely to be hanging out in the Piggly Wiggly, but still, along with their stand on the issues, a candidate's personality comes into play. Gore didn't have a visible personality. That probably messed him up way more than you not attacking every single negative comment that you read about him.

[dsc]

40. You must have lived in a cave in 2000

Story after story after story after story after story were printed about Gore which contained lie, after lie, after lie, after lie, after lie. No one in his campaign effectively countered it. That is why people didn't like Gore. Most people don't like wooden liars which is what the press portrayed Gore as. Don't believe me unlike the Dean bashers I have standards. Go to www.dailyhowler.com and search for Gore. Do so when you have plenty of time for some great reading. Then you will know what I am referring to.

I am not saying it is for sure a lie. But even unsubstatiated things have a disturbing habit of becoming convential wisdom. I want the source, that isn't too much to ask.

[renie408]

44. It doesn't look like a cave...

Is that really why Gore didn't get elected? Really? Do you honestly think that because people told lies about him, that's why he didn't win? Do you really think that any amount of lies about Gore could even come close to the TRUTH about Bush?? The Republican party out campaigned us, period. Gore was terrified of using Clinton until too late and generally presented himself as if he had a stick up his...well, you get the idea. I watched the debates and I kept up with the campaign pretty well. I nearly went into shock when Bush won. He was so clearly unqualified that it never occurred to me that he could. And THAT'S what got us.

What WE all ignored was how personable Bush was. He is still. You may vote the issues and the truth. But a lot of people vote with their hearts, not their minds. I am NOT trying to disrespect the American voter, but I see it all the time. Bush and the Republican party just had/have an acute sense of the Kodak moment. And more and more it is those moments that are getting people elected.

The other thing that got us was that everything was cruising along a little too well. When they are fat and happy, people just don't pay that much attention to politics (there is a saying that roughly says, "I defy you to get a well-fed Englishman to riot" Well, I paraphrase that with, "I defy you to get a well-fed American into a voting booth"). The next election won't be that way. This time around, everything has gone to hell and people want to know why. They are looking for answers and looking for somebody to blame. Just ask Gray Davis about that.

Anyway, I am not anti-Dean. He ain't my favorite candidate for a lot of reasons, but I am not writing any of this because 'I am one of them'. I just think that you are shooting yourself in the foot.

[dsc]

45. There is some to what you said

but just how do you know what Gore's personality is? My guess is via the media. All or almost all, of the aformentioned lies were about his personality or his ethics. Again I am not asking you to believe me but instead look at the citation I gave you. The media defined his personality and his campaign as being bad and you are exhibit A in how well that worked. They used trivial things so that defenders would look trivial in return. Supporters can't let that happen again. I don't care how trivial I wind up looking this stuff about Dean won't be allowed to stand.

[ProfessorPlum]

48. Gore did win

and if the press hadn't told so many lies (or if Gore's team or Gore himself would have stood up for him more in the face of them), Bush would never have gotten close enough in Florida to steal the election. It is just one of the many reasons Gore isn't in the White House today.

But DSC is absolutely right, Democrats are in control of how we respond to media attacks (unlike so many things which we aren't in control of) and we have to respond immediately, aggressively, with candor, and with no backing down to the presstitutes.

[George_Bonanza]

30. This forum's getting boring b/c of the negativity

It's no longer informative. What once used to be a prime discussion board for whoever was the best candidate now has degenerated into a prime discussion board for whoever is the worst candidate. That's not important compared to the former. Reading anti-Dean stuff, as a pro-Kerry, does nothing to like Kerry more. Now, I much prefer the Kerry blog because people there are always coming up with reasons for their fervent support for Kerry, and THAT'S what's inspiring. Occasionally, a Dean or Bush troll comes in, but that's quickly forgotten.

[renie408]

38. What he said.

[Nicholas_J]

46. Yet there is the disconnect between Dean cutting of funding to

Public Defenders, while supportting the death penelty.

Of course Dean ONLY supports the death penalty after a fair trial. but most of those who are tried and found guilty of capital crimes, are poor, or minorities who must rely on public defenders.

Dean has cleverly duped his supporters into supporting his totally irational ideas about the death penalty and the criminal justice syste.

Even more so, Deans handlers were very clear on telling Dean to HIDE his conservative side in order to dupe the young into supporting him

Deans decision to get rid of the funding for a public defenders office who whas sucessful at providing adequate defense of the indigent. Shows what Dean is really after. A criminal justices system that favors the rich, and denies equal justice to the poor:



More on Howard Dean and Criminal Defendants
We wrote last week about a Vermont newspaper editorial critical of Howard Dean's view of indigent defense and criminal defendants while he was Governor of Vermont. We were hoping he would address this on his blog and debunk the charge. We haven't seen any response. But we did receive this from a lawyer whose integrity we trust and who was a former public defender in Vermont.

I was a public defender in Vermont during part of Dean's tenure. He was openly hostile to the defense function. He once addressed a meeting of defense attorneys by stating that "my job is to make your job as difficult as possible." He is a man of his word, at least on this campaign promise. He did not want to fund public defense.

To his credit he appointed Robert Appel to the post of Defender General (Public Defender in charge of the state system.) Then he refused to reappoint Appel apparently because Robert was most effective on the shoestring budget he was given.

Dean, despite his present self proclaimed environmental advocate status, was fairly hostile to environmental concerns while Governor. Dean repeatedly appointed pro business, non environmentally sensitive people to the Environmental Board. In Dean's logic, any business that would provide a half dozen minimal wage jobs could do what they wanted to the environment. When I returned to New Jersey, I could observe that the only real difference between N.J. and VT environmentally (at least under Dean) was that VT had 7.5 million less residents.

http://www.talkleft.com/archives/003739.html


Dean names Rutland lawyer next defender general
August 15, 2001

(from the Top Story section)
By TRACY SCHMALER

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — Rutland lawyer Matthew Valerio has been tapped to become the state’s next defender general.

Valerio, a criminal defense lawyer in Vermont for the past 12 years, will take the job now held by Defender General Robert Appel next month, Gov. Howard Dean announced Tuesday.

“To me this is a great challenge in an area I love,” said Valerio, who has worked as a contract attorney in the public defense system for the last few years. “I honestly have a passion for the criminal justice system.”

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31763.html

Vermont Defender General Robert Appel Not Re-Appointed to Post: Underscores the Value of Indigent Defense Commission Model and Need for Independence of the Defense Function

August 17, 2001 - In August, Vermont Governor Howard Dean appointed Matthew Valerio as Defender General ending the tenure of Robert Appel, who held the post for over eight years. In Vermont, the Defender General serves at the will of the Governor. The appointment of a new Defender General had been rumored for many months, because of public disagreements Mr. Appel and Governor Dean had over the funding of the state's indigent defense system. (Further details to be published in the next issue of The Spangenberg Report).

http://www.spangenberggroup.com/pr_081701.html

There is little differnce in Deans decisions about the right to a fair trial in the United States than their is in John Ashcrofts Patriot act. As a matter of fact Denas decisions are FAR more dangerous than the Pariot ACt, as Deans decision deny's the right to fair trial to all those who cannot afford to spend millions on their own defense.

Deand is deeply involved in creating a system of class slavery, in which the poor are the chattel of the wealthy, existing only to slave away for them, and to be thrown away for life, at the pleasure of the rich.

[ProfessorPlum]

47. man, you never fail

to go for the full blown anti-logical Hail Mary Pass, do you?

"Dean is deeply involved in creating a system of class slavery"

You win the hyperbole award for today. It was an outstanding performance.

[dsc]

51. I have repeatedly asked for

and have NEVER gotten from you or anyone else, a straight news story on this issue. Do you have one? I want facts, figures, and dates. Do you have any? You have provided in the first case an unsigned editorial with no numbers at all. Your second link is a source with so much integrity he won't say his name. There is a reason we have a seperate forum for editorials.

[Nicholas_J]

57. Sorry...

But the organization, the Spangenburg Group

Vermont Defender General Robert Appel Not Re-Appointed to Post: Underscores the Value of Indigent Defense Commission Model and Need for Independence of the Defense Function

August 17, 2001 - In August, Vermont Governor Howard Dean appointed Matthew Valerio as Defender General ending the tenure of Robert Appel, who held the post for over eight years. In Vermont, the Defender General serves at the will of the Governor. The appointment of a new Defender General had been rumored for many months, because of public disagreements Mr. Appel and Governor Dean had over the funding of the state's indigent defense system. (Further details to be published in the next issue of The Spangenberg Report).


http://www.spangenberggroup.com/pr_081701.html

Is one of the nations foremost organization dedicated to making sure the poos and indegent have fair access to legal aid:


National Level Projects

The Spangenberg Group has conducted nationwide research projects on a variety of topics relating to indigent defense services. Examples of The Spangenberg Group's research on a nationwide level include:

In 1986, The United States Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics contracted with The Spangenberg Group to conduct a nationwide survey of indigent defense systems. This survey updated the previous survey conducted by Abt Associates, with Robert Spangenberg serving as Project Director, in 1982. The findings of the 1986 survey were published in the 1988 BJS document, Criminal Defense for the Poor, 1986.

For over twelve years, The Spangenberg Group has been under contract with the American Bar Association's Bar Information Program, which provides support and technical assistance to individuals and organizations working to improve their jurisdictions' indigent defense systems. As the ABA's primary provider of technical assistance relating to indigent defense systems, The Spangenberg Group has worked with judges, bar associations, state and local governments, legislative bodies and public defender organizations in over forty states around the country.

The Spangenberg Group was under contract with the American Bar Association Post Conviction Death Penalty Representation Project 1986 through 1997. The Spangenberg Group's work with the Project involved conducting research and providing technical assistance to support defense attorneys representing individuals convicted of committing capital crimes.


http://www.spangenberggroup.com/work_indig.html

The fact that they noted the events in ths so call editorials that you object to indicated that the nature of Denas actions in these editorials id ACCURATELY reported.

And further validates that it is Deans philosophy to erode and destroy the right to a fair and just treatment under the law.

The fact that the judges who were appointed
by Dean were ruled against by the FEDERAL courts, indicates that Dean decided to appouint judges who arev willing to violate the constitution, regardless of how small the case. The behavior of Deans appointees reflects on Deans ideas about justice as much as Bush's selection of ideologically driven justices is a reflection of Bush's judicial philosophy.



Again, who Dean selects indicates what Dean thinks.

This is not online, as it is too old but It is a direct copy from the New York Times:



Vermont's public defenders, concerned that Gov. Howard Dean might try to cut back their services, are seeking the right to join a union.
The lawyers, who work for the Vermont Defender General's office, have petitioned the Vermont Labor Relations Board for the right to conduct a union election. They want to be represented by the National Organization of Legal Services Workers, an affiliate of the United Automobile Workers, which represents Legal Aid lawyers in New York City.
William Nelson, a public defender who is one of the organizers of the union drive, said of the effort, "The major impetus has been uncertainty and concern about how the Dean administration is going to treat public defense in the years ahead." Mr. Nelson said the union drive is "only partly" about salaries and job conditions.
To cut spending, Governor Dean, a Democrat, has said he might try to limit the number of defendants who are eligible for public defenders or to restrict the types of services public defenders can provide.
More than two-thirds of the 48 people in the public defenders' office signed the petition to the labor relations board. They include paralegals, investigators and secretaries. All of them would be eligible to join the union.
The state's public defenders provide free legal defense for low-income clients charged with a crime for which they could be sentenced to jail. In some counties the state contracts with private law firms to provide public defenders. Those lawyers are not involved in the union effort.


The New York Times, February 5, 1993

[Nicholas_J]

59. Vermont Governor Leads Way in Restricting Oxycontin for the Poor

9. Vermont Governor Leads Way in Restricting Oxycontin for the Poor

Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, a physician and long-time drug fighter, is turning drug war into class war in his crusade against Oxycontin, the powerful opiate pain-killer that has become one of this year's drug menaces of choice. In July, Dean banned the use of state welfare funds to pay for Oxycontin prescriptions. But that wasn't enough. Earlier this month, Dean moved to restrict the supply of the drug to all Vermont residents enrolled in state-funded health care programs.

The move on welfare spending would affect only about 70 people, according to local press reports, but the governor's latest strike will affect 128,000 Vermonters. Doctors for patients in state-funded programs will now have to seek permission from the Office of Vermont Health Access before they can fill prescriptions for the popular painkiller, the Burlington Free Press reported.

The governor's actions have set off controversy in Montpelier, the state capital, according to the Free Press. Legislators are demanding a hearing next month on the decisions.

"It seems to me there was an assumption that all users of this drug were abusers," said Sen. James Leddy (D-Chittenden). "My question is what was the process used to reach this decision."

"I'm as angry about this as anything I have run into," said Sen. Nancy Chard (D-Windham). Chard, who heads the legislature's Health Access Oversight Committee, wanted to know whether any doctors -- other than the governor himself -- had been consulted.

Committee members also asked why Oxycontin was singled out when other prescription drugs are also subject to abuse. The committee voted to find out by calling state officials to testify at its next scheduled hearing in September. "I think we have a right to get some information," Chard said.

The Free Press' editorial page writers, however, apparently haven't been reading their own newspaper. They came out strongly in support of the governor's actions in an editorial calling for even more. They applauded Dean's move, "but the steps he took are only the beginning of what's needed," opined the Free Press. "Dean's was a drastic step, but one fully justified by the drug's dangers." Before urging state lawmakers to pass a prescription monitoring law, the newspaper added that, "OxyContin abuse occurs in Vermont, but hasn't reached epidemic levels. All the more reason to take preventive steps such as prior approval of prescriptions. That review won't suffice, though. Government, doctors and pharmacists should be discussing further actions, including physician and patient education."

But the newspaper and the governor go way too far even for Dr. Sally Satel, most reknowned for her advocacy of coerced treatment of drug users. In her syndicated column, Satel wrote: "The worst response we could make to the OxyContin phenomenon would be to restrict the supply, a classic toss of the baby out with the bathwater. Something must be done to keep OxyContin out of the wrong hands, but the true public health tragedy will be depriving patients who need it to survive in relative comfort day to day."

Satel should not be surprised by Dean's draconian approach to drug policy. The good doctor appears to consistently favor the intervention of police, bureaucrats and judges in medical affairs where abusable drugs are involved. In a case involving a heroin addict who was prescribed methadone, then later jailed on a parole violation, the state corrections department has gone to court to prevent him from receiving methadone while behind bars. The man in question, Shawn Gibson, had to undergo methadone withdrawal in prison after the state refused to treat him while in custody. Earlier, when a state judge ordered the corrections department to provide methadone to another prisoner, it refused and instead released the prisoner early.

Accord to the Rutland Herald, Dean, whom it describes as a moralist who "may be of the view that cold turkey withdrawal is more virtuous than methadone," is behind the state's rigid line. But Dean's moralism is not enough for the Herald, which accuses him of using state law "to interfere in an arbitrary and potentially harmful way in medical decisions."

http://www.stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/199/full.shtml

In more and more ways, Deans INSANE conservatism in all issues can be seen in every way, Everything he does is an attack on the poor, oe m,iddle class.

I mean restructuting an entire states legal and medicaid system to got to war on 70 people who needed the oxycontin for legitimate reasons.

HE is a frigging nut, and sould be confined in a straight jacket for the welfare of everyone around him.

[George_Bonanza]

56. Nick, while I appreciate your efforts

I think (nay, I know) most of us here won't exactly be converted by what anybody else has to say. If we are to be changed, it'd be out of our hands, like if somebody stopped supporting Kerry because he murdered somebody.

I, for one, support Kerry because he's a courageous and moral leader, not by hearing that Dean is a whacked out fool. I'm sure all of his supporters feel the same. My support for Kerry grows by listening to the seemingly never-ending list of great things he's done, not by the mistakes of Howard Dean.

Please, all Kerry supporters, partake in the Kerry blog at johnkerry.com. It's truly a welcoming sight, to be part of such a dedicated group full of vision and direction.

[Nicholas_J]

58. Or how about Debnas statements on curtailing Civil Liberties after 9/11

Dean's comments on civil liberties cause alarm


MONTPELIER — Gov. Howard Dean's call for a “re-evaluation” of some of America's civil liberties following this week's terrorist attacks was criticised Thursday by a Vermont Law School professor...

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

“I haven't gotten that far yet. I think that's unlikely, but I frankly haven't gotten that far. Again, I think that's a debate that we will have.”

Mello said Thursday, “the civil liberties Dean seems to be talking about so blithely, that's exactly what makes us different from the murderers who committed these acts.

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html


The Humiski case, not matter how small or large the violation, is a strong indication of Deans ideas regarding rights to free speech.


As president, he will be selecting federal and supreme court justices who using the same judicial philosophy as those who he selected in Vermont:

Federal court raps Vermont judges for violating protester's free-speech rights

By freedomforum.org staff,
The Associated Press

03.05.01

Printer-friendly page


Scott Huminski in front of his van outside Vermont District Court in Rutland, Vt., in April 2000.
BENNINGTON, Vt. — A federal judge has suspended orders barring a Vermont man from state court property, saying two state judges retaliated against him because he exercised his constitutional right to free speech.

Scott Huminski, 41, of Bennington, was slapped with no-trespassing orders in May 1999 after criticizing Rutland County District Judge Nancy Corsones.

Judge J. Garvan Murtha of the U.S. District Court for Vermont issued a preliminary injunction on Feb. 27 barring law enforcement personnel from acting on the no-trespass orders, which were issued against Huminski by Corsones and state Judge Patricia Zimmerman.

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=13300

Not one American citizen has been jailed or denied the right to sit in a courtroom by the horiffic Patriot Act that Dean supporters whine about.

But Dean's selectyions and actions have resulted in FAR more people being jailed, many without access to proper legal consultation, sue to Deans favoring prosecutors budgets, cutting public defineders budgets, and then firing a guy who managed to provide a decent public defense for the poor, in order to replace him with somone more likely to do what Dean wants and just throw them in jail. No right to equal justice under the law under Howard Deans's regime.

But the most dificult thing about dealing with Dean, is the sealing of his records. We have numerouis references to Deans obvious dsire to subvert the constiutional right to fair and equal protection under the law, but Dean is keeping the largest portion of this under lock and key. While his supporters claim that this is his private record. this is another outright lie.
These are private records of Deans conversation and letters and other documents written by Dean wile ACTING as governor and repsresentative of the electorate.

These are not his personal phonecallt telling his wife he wants chicken for dinner, but actual documentation of actions Dean took in his role as governor, for the state, using his power in order to do or not do the things noted in the hidden agenda.

In such cases it is perfectly legal, legitimate, to but togetther recortds from a number of cases to provide circumstantial proof of what Dean has done, or what his ideas are.

Ginve the differnt sources, editorial, personal from ex-public defenders whyo likely wish to maintain anonymity to protect themselves from retailiation in theri current jobs or if they inted to get other jobs.

All that would be required to prove Dean guilty in a court of law is provided in the links. Editorials, personal witness, opinions of oganizations that exist to make sure that the poor recueve ewqual justice, all point to Deans desire to crush equal rights under the law. The idea that it is alright for some innocent to be punished unfairly in order to make certain that the guilty are also caught is the Dean philosophy of criminal justice.

There is more than enough circumstantial evidence provided to fry him

Unless he wants to clear things up entirely, and unseal ALL of his gubernatorial record.

His unwillingness is a further indication of guilt, rather than innocence. Unless he has decided to take the fifth.

He is guilty of trying to deny due procees to the poor

[renie408]

61. In defense of the comments....

made right after 9/11, everybody was shook up then, even Howard Dean. The day after, I would have told you it was ok to lock somebody up for wearing the wrong hat until you could figure out what they were about. I am not a Dean fan, but holding the comments that were made in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 doesn't seem fair.