About the Patriot Act

[renie408]

In an earlier thread, Kerry and Edwards were single out as having voted for the Patriot Act. But Lieberman and Gephardt voted for it, too. Why weren't they mentioned? And Graham practically wrote the damn thing single-handedly. And again, its easy for Dean to say that he wouldn't have voted for the Patriot Act, like it is easy for him to say he wouldn't have voted for the war, cause nobody asked him to.

I think that Kucinich voted against it, right? So he is the only one who gets the brownie points for foresight. But the Patriot Act was passed on October 26, 2001 when most of the country was still scared sh!tless after 9/11. It was an admitted rush job that Bush and Ashcroft shoved through during a time when even I thought Bush looked good standing on that pile of rubble at the WTC. Congressman are elected to represent their constituents. Realistically, what percent of any Congressman's constituence was anti-Patriot Act six weeks after 9/11? I will admit that I had my worries, but so did Edwards. He grilled Ashcroft on several points in hearings. But in the end, he voted the way the people of North Carolina that elected him would have wanted him to vote AT THE TIME. It's real easy to sit back two years later now that Ashcroft and Bush have run amok and say that it was a mistake, but when you consider the timing of the bill and its rush through Congress, it is understandable why it got voted for.

Nearly all of the Democratic senators and even some of the Republican ones have said that they are not happy with the way Ashcroft has implemented the Patriot Act. No, that doesn't help now. But you have to look at the vote within the context of when it was taken.

[genius]

1. Kucinich led the opposition to the Patriot Act

He recently got a bill thorugh the house repealing the sneak and peek provisions of the U.S.A.-Patriot Act. When he becomes President, he'll have the whole thing thrown out.

[Devlzown]

2. The people didn't know what the Patriot Act was.

Many of the members of Congress who voted for the Act admitted that they hadn't even read it. In view of such widespread ignorance about the Act, I find it hard to swallow that those who voted for it were simply doing the will of their constituents.

[Egnever]

3. anyone who admits this

"Many of the members of Congress who voted for the Act admitted that they hadn't even read it"

Needs to be removed from office. I would like to personally add a beating to that but removal from office will do.

These bastards are sent to washington to represent us then they vote on things they havent even read?

This makes me so angry I cant even see straight!

[genius]

17. Dean supports the intelligence provisions of the Patriot Act

That's worse than mistakenly voting for something in faith. Daschle really pushed it and he was their leader in the Senate. Even Wellstone voted for the Patriot Act. I think those who supported it learned a lot. It may be noted that Gephardt woke up and voted against Homeland Security.

Thanks to Dennis, there was a lot more opposition to the Patriot Act in the House than the Senate.

[sfecap]

18. Dean Statement:

As Attorney General John Ashcroft begins his tour this week pushing for a 'Victory Act' that would expand upon the USA Patriot Act, Governor Dean released the following statement:

"After September 11, the Ashcroft Justice Department took advantage of the climate of fear and adopted a series of anti-terror tactics that go far beyond protecting our country and erode the rights of average Americans. We should be rolling these back, but instead Attorney General Ashcroft is trying to build on them with his 'Victory Act' proposal.

"He must not be allowed to compromise our freedoms any further. I call on Attorney General Ashcroft to withdraw this dangerous piece of legislation.

"The September 11 terrorists sought to disrupt the American way of life, including our constitutional freedoms. They must not succeed. As President, I will lead the war on terror in a way that protects civil rights and civil liberties as well as our safety."

[genius]

19. Kind of flip-floppy

Dean keeps changing his positions on everything, such as was seen on his position on the Social Security retirement age in his self-contradiction in the AFL-CIO debates and his position on restricting freedoms. Maybe he is just saying what he thinks it will take to get into office. But how do we know he won't follow-through with streamlining prosecutions and that millions of innocent people won't suffer?

Warren was a surprise to the Republicans but that is because he was a Republica. He had been honest about his positions. They just didn't notice because of his party affiliation. I don't think we can count on Dean to turn out to surprise us with good deeds or pro-Democratic policies when he gets into office. What if the coservative side of his flip-flops are the ones he would follow if he got into office.

[Nicholas_J]

22. Another Dean statement:

Dean's comments on civil liberties cause alarm
September 14, 2001

By DAVID GRAM The Associated Press

MONTPELIER — Gov. Howard Dean's call for a “re-evaluation” of some of America's civil liberties following this week's terrorist attacks was criticised Thursday by a Vermont Law School professor.

“Good God,” Vermont Law School Professor Michael Mello said when read the remarks Dean made at a Wednesday news conference. “It's terribly irresponsible for the leader of our state to be saying stuff like that right now.”

Benson Scotch, the head of the Vermont chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, said it was simply too soon after the attacks to engage in the sort of debates Dean called for.

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

“I haven't gotten that far yet. I think that's unlikely, but I frankly haven't gotten that far. Again, I think that's a debate that we will have.”

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html

[MercutioATC]

25. The umpteenth time you've posted this, Nick, and it still says NOTHING

I'ts a supposed piece about a Dean position yet has only ONE actual Dean quote (halfway through the article). It DOES, from the beginning, attempt to set an ominous tone and then quotes detractors, at least one of whom did not hear Dean make the statements, but "read the remarks Dean made".

That aside, the WORST this article can claim that Dean said is:

"Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

“I haven't gotten that far yet. I think that's unlikely, but I frankly haven't gotten that far. Again, I think that's a debate that we will have.”"


Spin all you like, this is NOT an extreme statement. It is certainly not the smoking gun proving Dean's facism that you continue to try to sell it as.

[MercutioATC]

24. No, Dean supports the security portions and the funding they provide

...such as port security. He's stated that he does NOT agree with the "intelligence" portions that infringe on the civil liberties of Americans.

What "intelligence provisions" does Dean support, specifically?

[renie408]

5. Nobody that voted for the Patriot Act read it?

Wow, that is negligent. Oh, but you said that "many members" of congress hadn't read it, so that means that some did. And could, conceivably, have thought that in a time of extreme national insecurity and with their people back home screaming for them to DO something, that voting for the Patriot Act was the right thing to do.

Of course that isn't the case, though, because we all know that Kerry, Edwards, Lieberman, Graham and Gephardt are really Nazis in disguise whose only goals are to curtail the freedoms of the people of this country.

I am not saying it was the RIGHT thing to do, I am saying it was understandable AT THE TIME. If you are open to understanding. These men are human, and there are many human factors that go into their decisions. You have to look at things within the context that they happened. The Patriot Act did not come about in a vacuum.

I do laud Kucinich for making, what must have been at the time, a very unpopular choice. It was the right choice, though.

[molly]

4. Great LOGICAL post

Welcome to DU!!! :hi:

[sfecap]

6. My apologies for singling out Kerry and Edwards...

You are correct, With the exception of Kucinich, all of the candidates in office voted for it. I mentioned Kerry and Edwards because I happened accrss their vote while looking for something else.

That said, there is no excuse for voting for a bill that is the most sweeping assault on American civil liberties in our history without extensive debate and examination. I don't care when it was passed or in what context it was passed. The Senate has a responsibility to see that the Constitution and Bill of Rights is upheld. A Senator has the responsibility to ascertain that they know what he or she votes for. To now whine about Ashcroft is lame, IMO. They had to have known what they were handing the AG. And they knew full well what kind of a RW asshole Ashcroft was. They served with him in the Senate.

What is particularly galling about what I posted re Kerry and Edwards is that they, after voting for the Act,continued to support the governments ability to tap citizens without court approval, and without verifying exactly who they were tapping. Sorry, I doin't buy their tap dancing about it now.

[sujan]

15. well

Russ Feingold voted against it. Kucinich wasn't the only one. Infact a third of the democrats in the house didn't vote for it.

[Mairead]

7. "It was an admitted rush job"

This is one of the biggest lies going (hasty disclaimer: I don't mean you're the one lying). They had this already put together. It was a 'rush job' in the sense that BushCo whipped up a 'rush! rush!' hysteria about it, so that all the candidates --except, as you point out, Dennis-- leaped onto the Cancel-The-Bill-Of-Rights Bandwagon.

And that is to their eternal discredit. They failed us completely. They did what Franklyn warned against -- they spent our freedom to buy a little temporary safety, and we ended up with neither neither freedom nor the safety.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

8. Kerry and Edwards are both attorneys.

More than the others, they should have known better.

Much like the Iraq vote, I see the PA vote as a "Look at us, we're doing something about terrorism." Political expediency.

Kucinich gets big marks on both of these votes.

[DrFunkenstein]

9. Sorry For Repeating This, But It Seems More Appropriate Here

The Patriot Act was an enormous piece of legislation rushed through Congress within a month (10/11/01) of Sept. 11. Many Senators, for better or worse, wanted to get something substantial on the table to deal with the threat of terrorism. In my opinion, I believe they had (wrongly) assumed that the courts would shoot down anything un-Constitutional.

Remembering back to the days following the attacks, I can understand why their judgement was clouded. After all, they were responsible for the lives of their constituents in a way the ACLU is not. Personally, I sided with the ACLU at the time, but I was not in a position of responsibility.

It seems to me that most of the candidates agree that real measures must be made to increase the efficiency of our intelligence - that part (the majority) of the Patriot Act is correct. And the candidates also seem to agree that the un-Constitutional portions of the Act, particularly the laws twisted by Ashcroft's gestapo, must go.

If, say, (former NYC Public Advocate and Mayoral candidate) Mark Green was the Attorney General (a real possibility for Kerry), you would not see the rampant abuse of power you have under Ashcroft.

[sfecap]

10. So...basically, the candidates

(With the exception of Kucinich, who actually showed some political courage...)

sniffed the political winds and voted.

Of course they all knew John Ashcroft would be very careful not to run amuck with what they so nicely handed him. :-)

None of this applies to Lieberman who..., well, we know about Joe.

[Mairead]

11. I find it saddening

That Kerry didn't use some of his his immense political prestige to bring a bill in to rescind--or at least de-fang--that legislation once he sobered up. Not that any other senator did either, of course (afaik)!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

12. Kerry and Edwards voted against AssKrofts confirmation.

http://www.vote.com/magazine/editorials/editorial26212844.phtml

But they were fooled by how he would implement the PA?

I find that theory highly dubious.

[renie408]

13. *shrug*

I guess we all see what suits us.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

14. I'm assuming that those who voted against confirmation

did so because of his extremist views. That being the case, why would you hand over the PA powers to a RW idealogue and think that said powers were in safe hands?

If you find something wrong with that logic, please point to it.

[renie408]

16. I dunno...

I reckon they thought there might be checks and balances or something. Or maybe they thought that, like they are talking about now, if things headed south they could do something about it. Or maybe, they were doing the politically expedient thing.

Like I have said before, I am not looking for my guy to be perfect, I am looking for him to electable and the best over all package for the Dems. When you think about it, on Edwards part at least, he had been in office for a year. I don't think that Senators vote or act completely on their own without any party advice or help. Its not like they are a jury in seclusion before a vote or anything.

I guess when Kucinich gets nominated and then wins the Presidency, they will realize what a huge mistake they made. (hint: read sarcasm there)

[DrFunkenstein]

20. That Was My (Ignored) Point

That the courts should act as a shield the Patriot Act from un-Constitutional abuse.

Passing a bill to gut the Patriot Act would be a lengthy Congressional battle unlikely to even get Democrat support, let alone from the GOP majority.

And, let's be honest, Kerry is running a Presidential campaign and has to compete against an unemployed doctor with nothing but time on his hands.

Kerry knows that the best way to gut the Patriot Act is from the Oval Office, where he can set the national mandate.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

26. Nothing but time on his hands?

What was Kerry doing when he missed 34% of the Senate votes this year? (And still counting...)
http://www.hillnews.com/news/052003/gephardt.aspx

One is unemployed.
The other has a job but just isn't doing it. Kind of the same thing. :-)

[VermontDem2004]

21. I wouldn't vote for the Patriot Act or the War

if I had an opportunity to vote. Critize me for not voting.

[renie408]

23. I would give all the money I won...

from the lottery to the nearest homeless shelter.

See, these things are easy to say when the chances of them occurring are slim to none. I am NOT criticizing Dean for saying that he would not have voted for the Patriot Act. I am saying that he was not called upon to do so. It is easy to say what you would do in that case. Maybe he wouldn't have, I don't know. My point is that neither do you.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

27. You're right.

It's more important to focus on those who did have a vote and see how they voted. Only Feingold gets a passing mark. All other Senators get a failing grade. Period.

[renie408]

28. I have to agree...

It was short-sighted. I think it was understandable, but short sighted. What about Kucinich? I thought he voted No.

[revcarol]

30. Kucinich is in the HOUSE.

And he voted NO.

Funny how someone who isn't an attorney has such a good grasp of Constitutional issues....while those who are attorneys just vote our rights away...

[renie408]

31. And the bastards knew it, too

It was a plot, you know. Edwards, Gephardt, Kerry...they are all really Republicans pretending to be Democrats to infiltrate and undermine our Party.

The only really good person in the United States today is Kucinich. That's a well known fact. He is the only honest, thoughtful person. Oh, and don't let me forget CARING. Dennis cares. Everybody says so. Which naturally means that if he is good and caring, nobody else can be.


You know, my kids ask me sometimes which of them I love more, who is smarter, who is the better kid...stuff like that. I always tell them that there is enough love and goodness to go around for everybody. Why is it in this campaign process, the other guy has to be BAD so that your guy can be GOOD? Can't they just be different? Why can't they just be human? Why is it inconceivable that they voted for a rushed act because people in this country were clamoring for something to be done? You want to know why?? Because you need every single scrap of ammo you can get. And if you let this one go, you lose a little bit.

[LWolf]

32. The sarcasm loses me.

You've made some good points so far, and I've enjoyed browsing through an intelligent discussion. Up to this point.

Why? Why? Why? You ask. And I ask, why do you need to ask?

I'll tell you why. You need every scrap of ammo you can get. If you don't find a way to minimize this fact, your candidate loses a little bit. The fact stands:

Kucinich is the only candidate able to vote who voted against the patriot act.

The only scraps of ammo against that fact are sarcasm and excuses, and they don't change the facts.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. Kucinich gets an A. The others get an F.

Dean, Sharpton and Braun receive incompletes.

Same for IWR, tax cuts and homeland security. Simple.

[DrFunkenstein]

34. You've Been Leaning Towards The Simple Lately

Incompletes.:eyes:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

35. Trying to help the logically impaired.

If you can't see the difference between someone who actively voted and someone who did not.....

Should your position be held equally accountable with those of Congress? Surely you had an opinion?




accountable

adj 1: liable to be called to account; "you are answerable for this debt" 2: being obliged to answer to an authority for your actions; "governments must be accountable to someone beside themselves"; "fully accountable for what they did"; "the court held the parents answerable for their minor child's acts of vandalism"; "he was answerable to no one"


Notice how it says nothing about "inactions" or "what you didn't do."

[srpantalonas]

29. hoeffel, specter, toomey voted for the patriot act.

EOM