Democrats recognize a good line

[Nicholas_J]

MASON CITY, Iowa -- Senator Joseph I. Lieberman was so angry that the White House had blocked union protection for members of the new Homeland Security Department that he let President Bush have it last week as he sat beside his rivals for the Democratic Party's presidential nomination.

"Did anybody ask the firefighters and the police officers, all of whom were union members, whether they thought once about that before they went into those burning buildings on Sept. 11 and risked their lives, whether they were going to choose between the unions and security? No way!" the Connecticut senator said in Philadelphia, during a candidate forum arranged by the Sheet Metal Workers International Association.

A few minutes later, Senator John F. Kerry of Massachusetts expressed similar outrage. "This president is so quick to give speeches about the heroes of New York City," Kerry said. "Well, I look forward to reminding him that every single one of those heroes that went up those stairs and gave their lives so that someone else might live was a member of organized labor."

To the audience, it may have sounded like Kerry was lifting from Lieberman, but in reality, it was Lieberman who was clipping from Kerry...

No one has yet to duplicate that, but Dean certainly has lifted a thing or two. In February, he tried to contrast himself with his rivals by telling a meeting of the Democratic National Committee, "I'm Howard Dean, and I'm here to represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party." After a quick database search by some of his fellow candidates, Dean conceded the phrase was authored by the late Senator Paul Wellstone of Minnesota, who said as early as 1998, "I represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party." In subsequent speeches, Dean has attributed the comment to Wellstone.

Kerry's campaign also accuses Dean of stealing an idea from its candidate: a proposal to produce 20 percent of the country's electricity from renewable resources by 2020.


http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/08/17/democrats_recognize_a_good_line?mode=PF

[CarlBallard]

1. I don't think it's stealing

If you're taking a good idea from another candidate. It'd probably be good to mention them, but the important thing is the good ideas get the most play. Of course I haven't picked a horse yet, so maybe I'd be otraged, outraged I say, if another candidate had taken something my candidate had said or a policy they proposed, and claimed it as their own.

[Cocoa]

2. I hope they all say it

Johnson is wrong about who has the better claim on this issue anyway. Lieberman was the one that was fighting for union rights for DHS from the beginning.

But Johnson isn't writing about substance, so he probably doesn't care about that.

[blm]

6. Does Johnson EVER care about substance?

I haven't seen much evidence of that over the years.

[silverweb]

3. Stupid.

Nitpicking, infighting, and backbiting.

A good idea is a good idea is a good idea. Unless it's patented, no one is "stealing" it by adopting it - and debating who said what first is a waste of time and energy needed for the real battles ahead of us.

Good grief! Let's focus on what's real and what's needed, shall we please? :crazy:

[Devlzown]

4. I wish they'd all steal ideas from Kucinich.

Dean, Kerry, Lieberman, all of them. Nothing would make me happier!

[diamondsoul]

25. Oh but they do, my friend, it's just there's no press coverage to prove it

to the masses of sheeple.

No seriously, Dean has been snatching from Kucinich for a while now. "Take back America" or words to that affect were Kucinich's trademark for months before Dean started with it. Grassroots campaigning (which Dean suddenly can't seem to be so sure of) was Kucinich's long before Dean snatched it.

How do I know? Because Kucinich used those same phrases and points to win elections at home and carried them over to a national campaign. Dean didn't use them until they proved to be working for DK.

[renie408]

5. Are the supporters an indicator of the candidate?

Is this the way Kerry campaigns? Constantly dragging up negative press on other candidates? I know that I had heard that Kerry and Dean supporters go at each other pretty relentlessly, but do the candidates do it, too? I read Kerry's comment about Dean and the internet that seemed to take a shot at Gore, too, but I haven't heard much else. If these two are going to kill each other, it is going to leave the way open for others.

[blm]

7. If you read that article you referred to correctly,

it states that Kerry made that sarcastic quip after being hounded by press that were agitated by the Dean campaign to go after Kerry for having a petition on his site that was like the one on Dean's site. The same campaign workers who worked for Bradley and agitated the press back then against Gore.

[Rose Siding]

8. The press can be agitated by a campaign?

Cool. I wonder why the Democrats haven't used that skill more consistently? It would have really helped out over the last couple of years.

It's disappointing that all it took was a little hounding by reporters to goad Kerry into sniping at Gore with republican lies.

[blm]

9. Nope...you obviously have no sense of what went on in 2000.

The Bradley camp agitated the press to hound Gore for fake issues that they promoted, like saying that Gore called Bob Kerrey a cripple. The press then pounced on Gore for this even though it was untrue and booed Gore in the press room throughout his NH debate with Bradley. They also pushed the press on every pervceived misstatement to push the idea that Gore was a liar.

Former Bradley campaign workers were picked up by the Dean camp early on. Kerry picked up many of Gore's. I guess you hadn't noticed that Kerry gets much of the same treatment in the press that Gore did.

Kerry's sarcastic quip was not directed at Gore and Gore and Kerry have a long history of making quips that take shots at themselves and their own political circle.

But, it seems that you want to excuse the REAL agitators who want to make an issue out of nonissues.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

12. Real agitators.

Look who started this thread.

Do you excuse that?

[blm]

14. I'm talking about PAID ones

who use the media to do their dirty work hoping to destroy a fellow Democrat, and you know that.

This is a message board, fer chrissakes.

[renie408]

10. I am so sad...

And here I thought my reading comprehension was pretty good. Gosh, I guess there is more than one way to take, "The last guy who said he invented the internet didn't do too well." I missed how that was a fun quip. You know, you lose so much of a person's meaning when you just see something in writing.

But gee, wouldn't allowing the press hound you into making dubious comments be a bad thing in a President? Because, like, don't they get hounded a lot? And dontcha think that saying things like "we need a regime change" are, well, stupid? And doesn't taking ANY shot at another candidate undermine this party and make the speaker look petty and immature? It seems to me that the supreme leader in the western hemisphere and probably the world needs to be able to watch the words coming out of his mouth. God, look at Bush. He says the stupidest crap I have ever heard and I am not sure that I really want the Democratic version of that in the White House.

[blm]

11. They don't have smiley icons in articles.

I don't like all the things that I have quipped about, or Clinton has , or Gore, or Kucinich or Hillary or just about anyone. It happens. My point was that you judged one part of the article while ignoring the other part that was strikingly similar to the way the Bradley camp pushed the press hounding of Gore. You gave the Dean camp who have taken more shots at other candidates (more than the others put together) a free pass on this, as well.

As far as someone shooting from the lip like Bush, there are plenty of stories about another candidate who has to apologize or retract his statements and jabs at others and has done so for most of his career.

[DrFunkenstein]

15. Stop Changing People's Words

Sarcastic quip hardly means fun quip.

Secondly, your logic is pretty lousy, which befits your intentions.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

[renie408]

27. You are right.

I tend to think of 'quip' as being a light-hearted remark. I don't recall the original wording and should have been more accurate in my quoting of it. The definition of quip is a 'A clever, often sarcastic remark; a gibe. See Synonyms at joke.
A petty distinction or objection; a quibble.
Something curious or odd'. Which does seem much more accurate.

I am curious about what you consider to by the lousy part of my logic. I am the first person to admit when I screw up. I was just calling it like I saw it. If I saw it wrong, I am open to you showing me how. I see Kerry making statements more than once that make him look worse than those he is commenting on. I think that if he makes these comments because he is being 'hounded' by 'agitated' reporters, that this could be a problem should he be elected. So far, that seems to make pretty good sense to me. I also commented that thread after thread here appears to be somebody from either the Kerry or Dean camp trashing the other candidate. I have also seen some positive posts and logically (sorry, I am trying to use some here), you make a choice out of a combination of positive feelings about one candidate and negative feelings about others. Dean and his supporters do their fair share, I am sure, but the particular post that I responded to was started by a pro-Kerry poster and contained negative information about Dean.

As for my intentions, you appear to lack some reading comprehension of your own. Reread my original post. What I said was that I find the behavior of both camps to be offputting. Think about it. If it turns me off, logically (that word again), other people might find it equally repellent. I have not been elected hall monitor here and you guys can go after each other as hard as you would like. I am telling you that the result is that you are cancelling each other out. What is going to happen is that Dean and Kerry are going to fall grappling to the wayside while some other candidate surges in front.

[Nicholas_J]

20. No by you remember it was Dean started all of the negative campaigning

And Kerry who supported Edwards when Dean lied about him.

But Edwards, Kerry and Lieberman say that by voting against the overall budget resolution in April, which allowed up to $350 billion in new tax cuts, Dean is wrong to say they support tax cuts on the scale Bush proposes.

"It is pretty clear that Governor Dean is unfairly mischaracterizing the positions of a number of his Democratic rivals," Lieberman spokesman Jano Cabrera said.

The Kerry campaign was more emphatic.

"Howard Dean owes John Kerry and others an apology for his continued recklessness with the facts," Kerry spokesman Robert Gibbs said.

http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/21146370.html

Edwards, when hearing about Deans lies about him was very upset, regardng his stance War in Iraq was supported by Kerry, and Of course, Dean claims to have sent a personal note of apology, but NEVER apolgized in public for the vast number of lies he has publically told about other candidates. To be honest, I beleive the DLC should be more active in putting an end to Deans campaign lies by suing to force Dean's sealed guiberantorial records to be opened, or that the other cnadidates and the DLC should begin a slander and libel suit against Dean, and require that Deans record be opened to the public as a punishent should they win the case.

The item noted above relates to Dean lying about other candidates voting for the Bush tax cuts.

[carpetbagger]

13. They probably all got it from Muddy Waters.

And he probably stole it from someone else, himself.

Remember, this is about sending George back to the pig farm.

[DrFunkenstein]

16. There Is A Difference Between Lifting A Line And Someone's Policy

Borrowing phrases is harmless enough, but when you rob the centerpiece of their environmental policy, that's another story.

We won't even go into lifting someone's foreign policy (and not very well).:think:

[killbotfactory]

18. Kerry invented multilateralism, too?

Kerry sure gets around.

[killbotfactory]

17. Kerry stole his position from environmentalists

Do a google search on "20% renewable by 2020". The idea goes way back.

[killbotfactory]

19. Actually, It looks like a Jeffords (VT) proposal

Way back in 1999.

http://www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/jan99/012199f.htm

With the nation moving to rewrite rules for the way electricity is produced and sold, Congress introduced six electricity deregulation bills in 1998 that would ensure continued growth of renewable electricity generation. The UCS report, "A Powerful Opportunity: Making Renewable Electricity the Standard," is the most comprehensive examination of the costs and benefits of these federal proposals to date. The report highlights a comparison between a strong proposal by Senator James Jeffords (R-Vt.), which would increase renewables to 20 percent of electricity generation by 2020, and a weaker proposal by the Clinton Administration, which would result in a share of 5.5 percent by 2010.

[blm]

21. Kerry IS an environmentalist for over 30 YEARS.

And his wife is, too. She has FUNDED alot of the research for environmental groups.

Why do you THINK he was helping with the Kyoto Accord? You don't just BECOME an environmentalist overnight.

Sheesh....you folks don't know when to quit. NO candidate is going to get ahead of Kerry on the environment. It can't be done. But, you're certainly welcome to make fools of yourselves trying.

[killbotfactory]

22. 20% by 2020

The Kerry campaign accused Dean of stealing the idea from Kerry, who proposed the idea in 2002.

Actually, Kerry stole it from James Jeffords of Vermont, who proposed the idea in 1999.

Sheesh, you Kerry folks don't know when to quit.

[blm]

23. Proposed publically and worked on for 30 years.

Do you really want to knock Kerry as some johnny come lately to environmental issues?

Good luck!

[killbotfactory]

24. Does Kerry really want claim an old idea as original?

Good luck!

[Alex146]

26. Dean and Kerry are on the same fucking team!

Why all the bashing?

Makes me sick.

[renie408]

28. There is a flaw in your logic.

I can't find it, but there is another guy here who is going to point it out for me. When he does, I will let you know what it is.

[acerbic]

29. Tactics that make complete sense to repuke disruptors:

Attack constantly the Democratic candidates who are the most popular at the moment, provoking infighting and dragging all of them down. The quite logically most effective variety: pretend to be a supporter of the second most popular one and hurl disgusting BS attacks against the most popular.
:think:

[renie408]

30. What does 'repuke' mean?

I can't find it in the dictionary.

I don't think it is a tactic. I actually think a lot of people are really sick of the Dean and Kerry people bashing each other.

[acerbic]

31. Perhaps you misunderstood me...

I actually think a lot of people are really sick of the Dean and Kerry people bashing each other.

Indeed. But a repuke (repukelican, rethuglican) would of course NEVER get sick of it...

[renie408]

32. Sorry,

I am not up on all the political slang. I was really trying to find 'repuke' in the dictionary and thinking it was some kind of weird hybrid word that meant a cross between 'rebuke' and 'refute'.

Ok, now I get your point. I got hung up on 'repuke' and didn't pay enough attention to the rest.