I like whatching Dean and Kucinich people go at it.

[DJcairo]

Its funny. I guess the flavor of the month is Kucinich. Dean is just not liberal enough, is that it? Come on...one payer health care...it will never pass. Don't be so politically naive people. You must be the same lot that voted for Nader and got us into this terrible mess in the first place.
Vote a Kerry, now there's a guy with the message and the means to win.

[Wonk]

1. Skull vs Bones in '04? I think that'd be great (for the Green Party).

http://www.google.com/search?q=skull+bones+kerry+bush

[Scottie72]

2. I support Kucinich...

The fact that one payer health will never pass for me is besides the point. The more people that support Kucinich the more the progressive message can get out there. My goal during the primary season is to get the progressive message out and to be discussed.

Once the canidate for the Democratic party is chosen then I will be more concerned about getting that democratic canidate elected. Right now I am mainly concerned about having my views heard and Kucinich is the canidate that is the closet to my views.

[Desertrose]

3. politically naive,eh?

and I'm sure djcairo, you're the expert being as how you're for John Kerry ...nice rich senator....oh BTW...how many votes has he missed?? Oh...but not the ones about the war, homeland security & the patriot act, eh??

Yup - he has a message...the same old one...and I'm sure he means to win...one way or anohter...very arrogant in his demeanor...tells me a lot about a person...no thanks,pal.

Me & my political naivete will stick with a real honest human being....DK!

Peace
DR

[AnAmerican]

4. Clinton's single payer and Kucinich's single payer.....

two vastly different plans.


And btw, I voted for Gore last time. Your argument is somewhat ummmm,
ineffective. Oh I forgot, you must be one of the "blame greens for the bfee" crowd. No I never voted Green but I respect them much more than some of the "Democratic" posters here.

[blm]

5. I support Kucinich and Kerry.

I wouldn't throw darts at anyone who supports such an honest man like Kucinich if I were you. Hell, if it wasn't for my volunteer work for Kucinich back in 1972, I might be a lost cause Republican like the rest of my family.

There are essential similarities between Kucinich and Kerry. Both were targeted and mocked by the powerstructures they opposed. Both were called "conspiracy theory nuts" by those who feared them.

I hope you edit your post for something a bit more constructive for the Dem party and its unity..

[molly]

10. Kucinich in 72? I lived in Cleveland when he was boy mayor

[diamondsoul]

6. Kerry is a decent enough guy.

Too bad he has people speaking for him the way you do. Probably drives a lot of people away from actually viewing his positions.

Single payer may not pass...YET. It will pass eventually. Why? Because more and more people are coming out in support of it. See my criteria for electing a National Leader....is to elect a man who will actually LEAD the nation somewhere as opposed to sitting back and letting it stagnate.

**on edit** That final remark sounds as though I think that's what the other 8 would do. That's not the case, I simply see more leading from Dennis Kucinich that I do from the other candidates at this point.

[renie408]

8. Amen

About the 'driving away' part at the very least.

[clar]

7. I'll echo the chorus here.

Pathetic, divisive post almost guaranteed to achieve nothing beyond hostility- towards you and Senator Kerry. This is NOT the way to enter a community. Keep expressing yourself in this manner and you will meet growing hostility.

[Mel]

9. funny?

I'm a Kucinich supporter and I don't hate Dean nor do I attack others that support him.

What got US in this mess is the USSC 5 treasonists! Al Gore, won the 2000, election where have you been?


BTW 8000 doctors don't agree with you on the health care issue.


<snip>BOSTON Thousands of U.S. physicians have endorsed a broad proposal that would abolish for-profit hospitals and insurers and transfer all Americans into an expanded and improved Medicare program for all ages, reigniting the debate over universal health care a decade after Bill Clinton's failed plan.
.
While the four physicians who wrote the plan - three of whom are affiliated with Harvard Medical School - are members of a nonprofit organization that has long pushed for universal health coverage, the new proposal is important for two reasons:
.
It was published Wednesday in one of the country's most prestigious and its most widely circulated medical journal, the Journal of the American Medical Association, and because of the large number of doctors - nearly 8,000, including two former surgeons general - who endorsed it. </snip>

read more here http://www.iht.com/articles/106184.html

[loyalsister]

20. 8,000 physicians have endorsed

Too bad they don't have votes in congress.
Guess what, The northeastern Republicans can be convinced of something incremental. However, something radical is not going to fly. These physicians don't have votes. Single payer is not going to happen overnight. Our best bet is to start where we're at and take the first steps toward it. For people with disabilities- people for whom it would make the most difference, pie in the sky dreaming is inadequate and it shows a complete disregard for our quality of life. You see, we're shut out of the work force, by not having access to health-care because of pre-existing condition clauses, etc. Getting a plan passed would eliminate that, because the gov't. can't legally exclude.
DK couldn't care less if we have a REAL opportunity to be covered. Neither do his constituents who say things like "who cares if it doesn't pass."

[bread_and_roses]

24. Why do people keep saying

...that single-payer can't pass? It is probably the only thing meaningful in health care reform that can pass...everything else is too complicated, leaves too many people out, and so is vulnerable to endless spin. And the "incremental" approach has been going on for many many years...so we now have more uninsured than ever before. Polls show people want simple, affordable, health care, often even if the poll asks if they would pay higher taxes for it. Same with good schools. Case in point on incrementalism: in NY, after years and years of endless hard work on incremental increases to the # covered by some form of state insurance...we now have the same # of uninsured as when we started. It doesn't work.

[JohnKleeb]

25. ken I dont know why

Its the right cause, single payer it can and will work, and its been a dream of democrats for lord only knows how long.

[loyalsister]

26. count the states

that have passed something that resembles single payer (none) and those which have passed something that is based on the current system. (Hawaii and Vermont, I can think of off hand Oregon got it on their ballot). Ya see now why someone might say that???

[bread_and_roses]

27. No, I still don't

see why people keep saying that. I think any honest Democrat has to stand up to this appalling system and ask the American people why they, in the richest country in the world, go without health care? The States cannot afford single payer on their own; this is a national problem and has to be addressed on the national level. Believe me, I have worked on "incremental" reform because it was all we thought we could get. It ties up the energies of a lot of activists, to no real improvement. It is a sop to people that leaves the insurance companies in charge of our health care. And a strong voice on this can bring in voters. We should also lose the "single-payer" language. "Health care for all" is simple, comprehensible, and appealing. I am not being visionary, I am being practical.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. The Oregon situation

A single-payer proposal made the ballot in Oregon in 2002. It got 28% of the vote. Here's why:

1. It was poorly thought out and had some weaknesses that the opponents jumped all over. Their favorite talking point was, "There's no residence requirement, so all the chronically ill people in America are going to flock to Oregon and get free medical care from your hard-earned tax dollars." Even some friends of mine who are all for single-payer bought this line.

2. The "pro" forces were sadly outgunned by a coalition of conservatives, libertarians, and Insurance companies, who saturated the broadcast media with "anti" ads. As I recall, the "pro" side had exactly one cheap-looking little ad that didn't play very often.

3. Some labor unions came out against it because they said that ther members already had fine health care plans, thank you.

I really wonder what would have happened if the proposal had been more carefully drafted, the "pro" side had been able to keep up with the "anti" side in the PR war, and the unions had looked beyond the interests of their own members to the interests of the very people they're trying to unionize.

[bread_and_roses]

28. and the public supports universal health care

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles8/Turri_Dean-Kucinich.htm

"According to a recent Pew Research poll, "72% of Americans agree that the government should provide universal health care, even if it means repealing most tax cuts passed since Bush took office." Democrats support it by an impressive 86% to 11%. Republicans even favor it 51% to 44%. (In light of those numbers, support for universal health care among progressives must be running about 99% to 1%!)"

[w13rd0]

11. Keep it up...

...how many times have you been tombstoned? Spamming the boards and the blogs is no way to win converts.

[DJcairo]

12. I was raising what I thought was a valid point

What is wrong with strong discussion or even dissension. So I'm not ra-ra about Dean or Kucinich, that doesn't make me any less interested in getting Bush out of the White House. I just won't and can't accept the arguments some people on here make about single payer health care and anti-war being the only true liberal calling cards. I understand the sentiment, but by this standard you people must have hated Clinton. And we know now that he was the most important progressive president in half a decade. It's time for us to seriously have a policy discussion and not simply another cheering one.
I'm sorry if I created a bad first impression but this is really how I feel.

[DrFunkenstein]

13. I'm Disappointed By The "Flavor of the Month" Comment

I have the utmost respect for people who have dedicated their lives to peace and justice like Dennis has. And I may go toe-to-toe all the time with the Dean people, but I think Dean is - truth be known - a damn fine candidate. Certainly not my first choice, but a heck of a second choice.

Sadly, America is not ready for Dennis. But I'll probably end up donating more to his Congressional campaign than to Kerry's presidential one. IMO, we should do everything we can to make progressive choices viable ones.

And I think 2000 taught us a lesson. I have a hard time believing anyone will vote for someone besides the Democratic challenger if the race is at all close. Outside of that, I have tremendous respect for truly progressive voices trying to be heard.

Personally, I support Kerry because of his lengthy progressive record, not because he is the most "electable." I think having a chance is important, but it is hardly my first criteria.

That said, welcome to DU. I strongly encourage you to keep things positive, or at the very least fair. There are lots of good people supporting the other candidates, and they don't deserve to be attacked or lectured. People know me here as a pretty tough debater, but I always try to keep things respectful and honest. That's a good starting point.

I look forward to another voice raised here for Kerry. I truly think he is the best man for the job. I'm glad you think so, too.

[George_Bonanza]

14. Don't say

That reading some arrogant postings by a Kerry troll makes your impartial mind immediately discredit Kerry. You'd have to have a predisposition to not want to support Kerry to let one troll change your mind.

[JohnKleeb]

16. I wont let that happen George

Kerry I do like, despite his war support I think I like Gephardt too, I do like Dean but well I cant explain really why I have my iffs and butts.,

[FluxRostrum]

15. don't you even want the illusion of choice?

Bush ::: Skull & Bones
Kerry ::: Skull & Bones
=======================
winning vote goes to ::: Skull & Bones

Allowing 2 members of a secret society hell bent on world domination to run against each other...yeah, that sounds smart... NOT

Don't you even want a chance?

[DJcairo]

17. Skull and Bones has nothing to do with it

Any kid of privelage who went to Yale at that time was a member. Just look at the policies and the record when comparing the two leading Dem candidates for president.
Dean's health care plan is a clumsy expansion of governmental programs and a rip off of Kerry's idea to expand the federal health care program for senators and congressmen.
His plaN will never pass because it simply expands existing programs. If giving Americans health insurance were that easy an issue it would have beeen done before and all Dean says it "my plan will pass." That's a lie and he knows it.

[tjdee]

19. Dean went to Yale, he wasn't in S&B.

And Dean's family is way old money and priveliged.

So...it would appear that not ALL privileged students belonged to Skull and Bones.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. Fact check! Fact check!

I was a graduate student at Yale and knew lots of undergraduates through my participation in musical and religious activities.

It is NOT true that "any kid of privilege who went to Yale at that time" was a member of Skull and Bones.

Students are tapped for the secret societies in the spring of their junior year, and Skull and Bones is not the only one, just the most prestigious. I don't remember how many new members are taken in each year, but my impression that the number is somehwere between twelve and twenty, and there are lot more than twelve to twenty "kids of privilege" in the average Yale senior class at any one time.

On the other hand, I don't find Skull and Bones to be that sinister. One of its more famous members was William Sloane Coffin, a leader in the anti-Vietnam War movement and other left-wing causes.

As they grow older, some Bonesmen embrace the legacy, and others reject it.

[DrFunkenstein]

22. Jealous Much?

I'm a Skull & Crossbones member. We're very big into backgammon and internet porn, but occasionally the conversation steers towards world domination. We took a big beating after we backed Steve Guttenberg for stardom. But we have a big Fall schedule coming up. We're planning on taking over Nepal in September. That's gonna be fun.

I remember old Billy Coffin. Good guy. Very tight pants. He was a little light in the boots, tough, if you catch my meaning. I occasionally hang out with the Bush boys. It turns out that Saddam was hiding a couple of extra-terrestrials, so we had to cover it up with a big oil-pipeline red herring. Boy, that really threw off the college pinkos.

As for the Kerry boy, was never much on him. Too serious. Always Vietnam, sense of duty, blah blah blah. When we found out his grandfather was a Jew, we had a hard time not buying him a pair of cement shoes, wink wink. He was a little light in the boots, too.

[AWD]

18. Hmmm...

-divisive post
-poor spelling

Gee, I wonder if.......

[hippywife]

23. So why don't you

just get a life already and do something positive to support your candidate instead of stirring up shit between us and ours? :eyes:

[goodhue]

30. enjoy

http://www.kucinichdeancompare.com/

[mandyky]

31. Lately it's been Dean Kucinich Clark and Kerry

supporters doing the daisy chain bash party. Mostly sour grapes and idealisms, but hey, it's a primary season, may the best candidate win.