Dean is moderate on gays?

[dsc]

I finally got a hold of the Time Magazine with Dean on the cover. The article was OK I guess but one thing jumped out like a sore thumb. They described Dean's position on gays as moderate. For the record this is what Dean did on gay rights in VT.

1) helped pass and signed a civil rights bill for lesbians and gays in VT. Currently only CA, NY, NJ, MA, CT, NH, MN, RI, VT, MD, and HI have such laws. At the time he was the third governor to sign such legislation.

2) extended full benefits to domestic partners of state employees (before civil unions). Not sure how many states do that but I know OH doesn't.

3) permitted same sex couples to adopt as couples. To my knowledge on NJ, MA, and VT permit this.

4) fought for the passage of and signed civil unions legislation giving same sex couples the same legal rights as straight couples. Only VT has this.

How is this a moderate position? If the word moderate means anything it means the middle of the political spectrum. Yet most states don't do these things. There are 50 states in this country and a handful deign to grant even such basic rights as not getting fired for being gay. I would love Time to be accurate on this but give me a break.

[dajabr]

1. Two people who may disagree...

My Civil Union in Vermont
Three years ago, Gov. Dean signed a bill legalizing civil union between same- sex couples. Saturday night my partner, David Warner, and I reaped the benefits of the Governor's courage. Just before sunset at the Burlington Vermont Community Boathouse we exchanged vows before 100 guests including 22 Dean campaign staffers. "The winds of change are blowing," said David, referring to the windy weather conditions. "It's good to be getting 'civilized' in Vermont -- the only state where that's possible."

Later, guest Dennis Green toasted the notion of the impossible becoming possible. He recalled his childhood sense of wonder at the futuristic gizmos in the Dick Tracy comic strip, gadgets like the walkie-talkie watch that he could never image coming to pass. Those did become a reality as did civil unions. Mark Lord, also from Philadelphia, E-mailed today saying, "on the one hand, had a delightfully light touch . . . On the other, I felt a little bit as if the Berlin Wall was coming down around us."

David and I thank those in Vermont, including many of the Governor's staff (several now working on this campaign), for helping make civil unions a reality.

Many of our guests made contributions to Dean for America. If you would like to also make a donation go to www.deanforamerica.com/davidandlarry.

Larry Biddle, Deputy National Finance Director

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/001228.html

[dsc]

2. I would love for this to be the moderate position

but not only doesn't my state do any of this. No state bordering mine does. And of those twice removed only NY, NJ, and MD do. I just couldn't believe my eyes reading that quote.

[JohnKleeb]

3. I wouldnt call Dean's position moderate

liberal and very much so I can see hat.

[dajabr]

6. I know...

I guess if you don't call it gay marriage, you're a moderate? :shrug:

[JohnKleeb]

9. huh?

gay marriage and civil unions are different things that is a fact, now I think Dean made a great decision up in Vermont on that but I seem to remember a fourm and Dean saying that he supported civil unions but did not support gay marriage not a bash but a fact. I admire the stand he made there.

[w4rma]

10. Larry King Live - August 4, 2003

…
DEAN: We have civil unions, which gives equal rights -- doesn't give marriage, but it gives equal rights in terms of insurance, employment rights, inheritance rights, hospital visitation, to every single Vermonter, no matter who they are.

You know, interestingly enough, Dick Cheney took a position in 2000 in the debates that is not very different than mine. He said, this is not a federal issue. I really am inclined to leave this matter to the states, and I think we ought to let states figure out how to give equal rights to everybody in the way that they do it. So I think this is kind of a political issue at the federal level, but the power to decide these things really belongs to the state level.

KING: All right. On your own state level, if it were a referendum, would you vote for gay marriage?

DEAN: If what were -- we don't have a referendum in my state, and we have civil unions, and we deliberate chose civil unions, because we didn't think marriage was necessary in order to give equal rights to all people.

Marriage is a religious institution, the way I see it. And we're not in the business of telling churches who they can and cannot marry. But in terms of civil rights and equal rights under the law for all Americans, that is the state's business, and that's why we started civil unions.

KING: So you would be opposed to a gay marriage?

DEAN: If other states want to do it, that's their business. We didn't choose to do that in our state.
…
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/04/lkl.00.html
http://www.howarddean.tv/

[JohnKleeb]

12. my bad but it does prove my point

gay marriage and civil unions are not the same things at least not to Howard Dean. I think it should be federal really.

[dajabr]

13. Dean supports a Federal mandate...

To force States to create laws that ensure the GLBT community is treated equally under the law. What he will not do, is dictate how they do it. Want gay marriage in your state? Fine, lobby your state reps and get it done. But, at the end of the day with Dean as President, they'll have the same rights as those in my state, and every other state in the union.

[JohnKleeb]

15. thats fine I consider him a liberal on that issue

Ive been told and I think mistakely that they are one and the same, you can see that good.

[w4rma]

14. I'd like to see all the states support it, also

Strategically, I think that it's going to be a state by state fight, and then once enough states accept it, it might become a federal issue at that point to force the remaining minority to accept it. I hope it doesn't have to go federal, though.

[dsc]

4. Go to any large group of gays and lesbians

and you will hear a civil union story. I almost cried at the one I heard on Pride day here (Cleveland OH). That was such a sweet story. So many of us never figured we would live to see the day that something like civil unions would exist.

[w4rma]

5. I think Dean *is* moderate on gays.

I also think that he is doing his best to help gay folks and I think he has a good feeling for the center of the electorate on this issue.

For example, when I explained Dean's national position on civil unions to my father (who is about 70 years old and is socially conservative) he agreed with Dean's position:

States' rights, the federal government should not tell states that they must or must not allow civil unions or gay marrage. I also pointed out that civil unions, in Vermont, give the legal benefits of marrage but don't tell churches how they want to define marrage.

Note, before I explained Dean's position dad probably wouldn't have voted for him (unless it was a choice between Dean and Bush. He can't stand Bush). Btw, Dad was a Reagan Democrat.

[LeftCoast]

7. Why should civil rights for gays be anything BUT a moderate idea?

I appreciate the sentiment, but Dean's position is the very least one should expect of a politician claiming to uphold the Constitution. Supporting full and equal rights for all citizens is a moderate position. Claiming special rights (such as marriage and adoption) for heterosexuals is the radical idea in my opinion.

[dsc]

11. obviously I would love

for this to be the position every American held but I would also like to have Gates' money, Pitt's looks, Gandi's spirituality, and a great man to go with all that. Sadly I don't think either is going to happen any time soon.

[sandnsea]

8. Better than being labeled a liberal

Don't knock it. I think this helped Dean, particularly as it was in Time. Most people will never pay attention to what he actually did, they'll just draw their own conclusions about what moderate means and it will generally be something they'll vote for.

[diamondsoul]

17. No offense, but isn't that essentially

deliberately misleading voters? The way your post reads, it sounds as if you're saying it's ok for voters to be confused by labels if it helps Dean get elected. I'm sure that wasn't what you meant to imply, but I thought I'd point out that it can be interpreted that way.

[sandnsea]

18. I'm not even a Dean supporter

He's a moderate anyway, so the title isn't misleading. I was just pointing out that being labeled a moderate for Dean is good since he's usually labeled a lefty liberal. And it's true most people don't pay any attention and as long as everything's moderate, they pull the lever. Getting a Democrat elected is the point, isn't it?

[diamondsoul]

19. Sorry if I offended, honestly!

I tried to be as polite as I know how.

I agree Dean is pretty moderate over-all, but gay rights is one of few areas I'd call him pretty liberal.

Getting a Democrat elected may be some voters' goal right now, but it's not the way I'm looking at it. I'll accept that as a reasonable compromise, but I'm not prepared to accept that as the only goal just yet. Thanks for responding, and again, I apologize if I offended you.

[sandnsea]

20. If not a Democrat, then Bush?

Those are your choices. That is reality. A Democrat or Bush.

[diamondsoul]

22. That wasn't exactly my point, but I think you knew that.

And NO, I will not get into a debate over whether or not I'm *helping Bush* yet again.

[diamondsoul]

16. I have to agree, the only possible thing that

could put him in a moderate category on gay rights is the business about gay marriage. My personal opinion, Dean is very liberal when it comes to that issue, but still not liberal enough for me. Not a slam just an observation. My view of the DOMA is that it breaches separation of Church and State. Marriage in the legal sense IS a civil union, it's only in a spiritual context that it needs to be defined in any other way. When a legal concept is defined by specific spiritual boundries, it breaches separation of Church and State.

[Northwind]

21. yep

Visit this thread (please keep it from dying a quick death!) for more discussion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=232346

[diamondsoul]

23. Done.

Great seeder, too!

[George_Bonanza]

24. Dean is a liberal on gays

He's not a far liberal, but what he's done makes him a liberal. *So is Kerry, I think they have similar stances regarding the gay issue*