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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 03:50 AM
Original message
drug laws versus gun laws
As an Independent I'm noticing a lot of hypocrisy in Democratic beliefs.

Many more liberal Democrats support abortion yet oppose the death penalty. Both involve interfering in nature to prevent life. I don't see any significant moral or ethical differences in these things. It doesn't make sense to me that someone who strongly supports one can be so vehemently against the other.

The other hypocrisy I see are the issues of drug laws and gun laws. I often hear the argument that drug laws don't do anything to stop drug use and that it just bogs up the criminal justice system and fills prisons with people who shouldn't be there. Yet these same people are often in favor of gun laws. The same arguments made against drug laws are rational arguments against gun laws. Some would like to see guns banned. Wouldn't that also bog down the courts and fill up prisons with people who shouldn't be there? Why do many people oppose drug laws yet support gun laws?

Has anyone here ever put serious thought into the similarities and questioned themselves as to why they support one issue and oppose the other?
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 03:57 AM
Response to Original message
1. False dilemmas ....
Edited on Tue Aug-26-03 04:02 AM by Trajan
Fetuses are NOT human beings until they are born, any more than sperm or eggs are human beings, but the question of capital punishment involves LIVE human beings: .. the issue is one of the STATE killing human beings out of vengeance, making the state itself a killer of human beings .... False analogy ... fallacy of relevence ...

Drugs harm the user who makes the choice to use: .... guns harm others who do NOT make the choice to be shot and killed ....

AGAIN: .. false analogy ... fallacy of relevence ...

IF you could make a gun that ONLY shot the gun owner: .. then gun and drug danger would be identical ...
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. You entirely missed the point of my post.
It's not supposed to be a debate about when life begins. You don't consider a fetus a life, but I do. The bottom line is, that without intervention in either situation, there would ultimately be a human being on the planet. The point is...why is it okay morally to condemn the execution of someone who has done something terrible but wrong to condemn the abortion of an unborn child that is most likely the result of irresponsibility on the part of those who created it?

A gun is an inanimate object that does not kill by itself. By the logic you are using, you would have to attach laws to possession of everything from steak knives to rocks as well.

Drug users don't only harm themselves. Addicts on some drugs commit crimes against others to obtain more drugs. Ask any loved one of an addict how terribly they have been affected. To say that the only person an addict harms is themselves is simply false. I know, I've been there personally. I might add that many instances of domestic violence occur at the hands of addicts.
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demconfive Donating Member (578 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. drugs are also inanimate objects.
Like guns, drugs can be used responsibly for recreational purposes.
And like guns, irresponsible use can result in tragedy. So the question is: Why aren't guns regulated as much as drugs, or conversly, why aren't drugs given the same leeway as guns. ( Remember, a gun is the only consumer item that when used properly and according to instructions results in death or serious injury)
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. No, it's you who misses the point
You ask why other people hold the stances they do, and then you try to invalidate them by talking about your beliefs! Other people aren't you. They do things for their reasons, not yours.

So, if you believe life begins at conception, and you're ethically consistent, then you'll necessarily be opposed to abortion, capital punishment, war, and all the practices and restrictions that might lead someone to take a human life.

The drugs war is one of the things that leads people to kill. The drugs warriors and their fellow travellers kill because they believe that human life --other people's human life, at least-- is less important than their own --the warriors'-- ability to exercise power. And people in the drugs trade kill, because they have no less bloody way to resolve serious business disputes.

So if you support the drugs war, then you support killing because you cannot separate the two--they are guaranteed not to be separable.

The harm caused by drugs users is approximately that caused by the users of anything else with a potential for harm. Which is to say: small. Most people who own firearms do not shoot other people. Most people who drive cars do not run over other people. Most people who eat do not become electively obese. Most who use mind-altering substances do not become enthralled to them. Significantly, the vast majority of people use such tools; only a tiny minority become captivated by them. So when you talk as though abuse and harm are inevitable, you totally overstate the case. The question is: why do you do that?

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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. I'm not trying to piss people off...just get people thinking
I'm seeing some people wig out over Dean supporting the death penalty in some cases and his stance on guns. If people really put some thought into these questions I've posed they can, at the very least, see how Dean might take the positions he does. Also, they might better understand why Kucinich has been opposed to abortion in the past. I'll bet he employed the same thinking that I do on the issue. This thread isn't supposed to be about criticism so much as it's supposed to perhaps help create some tolerance from some who are intolerant on these particular issues.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. The bottom line is ....
Edited on Tue Aug-26-03 05:12 AM by Trajan
You think what you think .. and thats it ....

You refuse to acknowledge my own view of the fetus, and instead FORCE your own view to prevail as the premise: ... you are now begging the question .... I KNOW that IF one accepts that preborn fetuses are human beings THEN one might quibble over the differences ... but I DONT ACCEPT THAT VIEW ....

Therefore: ... I wont even bother with your preordained conclusion that abortion = capital punishment .....


IF I carry a baseball bat behind the drivers seat in my car: .. I am guilty of carrying a concealed weapon .... so therefore: There ARE laws against possession of certain types of objects in certain situations .... hence your assertion that MY logic would lead to such a situation is QED ..... it is a demonstrable fact ....


Drug use 'harms' the user in different ways: .... by 'harm', I refer to BODILY harm ..... when a drug user uses: .. he causes BODILY harm to his own person .. yet he causes NO bodily harm to ANYONE else in that case .... But guns cause bodily harm to those OUTSIDE of the user .... not to mention the emotional distress guns cause in society ....

What if one overeats and causes premature death ? ... shall his loved ones be emotionally distressed by his self caused death ? .... what recourse should society take then to forestall this distress ? ...
Shall we outlaw overeasting ????? ....

ANY obsession or infatuation may cause emotional 'harm' ... yet such definitions are of no significance: .. DRUGS cannot be compared to guns unless one intends to show that drugs cause PHYSICAL harm, like guns do ...

YOU are making the 'physical harm' correlation between guns and drugs to establish your argument, then you discard this nexus when convenient to promote a different correlation: one of SOCIAL 'harm' .... We could rightly call this an equivocation ...

Really: .. you MUST try to think deeper ....

I dont intend to hash this stuff out over again ....

The REAL point might be: ... WHY are you promoting a right wing philosophical viewpoint on a progressive forum ? ... DU is NOT a wide open forum for ALL points of view, but exclusive for those who are left leaning ...
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. I recognize you're right to have the views you do.
Where did I say that I don't? Be fair. I explained in my post to Maired why I started this thread. If you understand that, you might look at the thread a little differently. I'm not pushing any agenda here other than getting Bush out of office. Democrats need to unite against Bush behind whoever wins the nomination. I think that's going to be Dean and I've read some who claim they won't vote for him because of certain stances he takes. I'm hoping this thread can help some people see the other side of these arguments and realize that in many ways, they do make sense.

It's not okay to toss around accusations that I'm trying to push Right Wing agenda. These aren't right wing issues at all. They are American issues because just about every person has a view on them. The majority of Americans don't hold your view on guns and the death penalty. And the right wing is far from the majority. Many, many swing voters are pro gun and pro death penalty as well as pro abortion.
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R Hickey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. I don't speak for all Democrats, but I'll argue...
All these things are social experiments. Making Nazi Germany "Jew-free" is one example of a social experiment that, I think, went badly.

People who want to make guns illegal, are in favor of a 'social experiment' that they think will make society seem safer. (Guns are unsafe, and facilitate crimes and accidental deaths, they say.)

People who want to keep guns legal have other arguments. (They don't trust police to protect them, enjoy collecting guns, shooting them, and hunting)

The biggest problem is that the issue has been politicized, so that the 'slippery slope' arguement interferes with common sense.

The drug law "social experiment" has problems too. Some illegal drugs are more harmful than others, and some legal drugs (booze and nicotine) are more harmful than certain illegal ones (pot). Watch TV, and you will see big pharmacutical, tobacco and booze companies trying to push and addict the public to the drugs they make, while condeming pot.

Part of our Constitutional freedom is to be able to 'pursue happiness.'

Some see these 'social experiment' laws as interfereing with our right to pursue happiness, and as smokescreens for other agendas.

Republicans want bigger prisons, Whackenhut Prison Systems is making the Bush family and friends not just richer, but help them feel more secure by locking up the middle and lower classes. In contrast, Democrats want universal free health care, and would feel more secure without huge hospital bills and free public education for all.

Thanks to their money, the Republicans are winning in America. We recently have grown the biggest prison system on earth. Reagan/Bush did it. They have nearly bankrupted two thirds of the states by doing so, while at the same time, damaging national health by throwing our sick to the preditory health-insurance companies.

America's healthcare system has slipped in world rank from first to thirty fifth, over the same period of time that the Republicans quadrupled our prison population.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Now this is the kind of response I was hoping for...
Turning off heated emotion and just thinking about these things and recognizing that these things really aren't all that different.
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. "thinking about these things"
does not necessarly mean one agrees that "these things really aren't all that different." I, for instance, also think these are false analogies, but I might nonetheless be willing to think about how to address them.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I'm not asking you to agree with any particular views...
But rather to understand and possibly even respect the various ways of looking at them. Consider it an exercise in tolerance for views you might not agree with and understanding why someone might see things differently than you. Fair enough?
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. The Abolition of Slavery Was A "Social Experiment"
So was giving women the right to vote. Giving workers a 40-hour week was a social experiment.

The Nazi analogy is the DU version of jumping the shark.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. I don't know, Funk
I think those are all Civil RIghts issues that are pretty cut and dry and probably a whole different debate. Comparing these things to gay rights would probably make for a much better comparison and discussion. It would also be a good comparison to the mess in Israel, but I don't think we ought to bring all that stuff into this discussion because it will most likely just bog it down and take it off on a tangent. I really think this thread has the makings of a very enlightening and good debate, if everyone turns off their emotions enough to focus on the original intent of the thread.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Irresponsibility?
Yes, it is irresponsible for a rapist to rape a woman. But it isn't the woman's fault, and if she chooses to do so, she should have a right to an abortion. Otherwise, you are rewarding a criminal and perpetuating his crime-because his faulty DNA is perpetuated, and the poor woman is stuck with taking care of the child or arranging for its adoption. And don't tell me the woman asked for it. I know of a girl who can't walk and has limited use of her limbs who was raped and became pregnant. Her mother was Catholic, but believe you me she had the abortion performed pronto, because there was a great danger the girl wouldn't live because of this attack.

I am pro choice because I'm afraid of pro lifers. They seem to think that every woman should bear a child in every circumstance, even that of rape. And I'm old enough to recall a time when a rape victim was held "responsible" for the attack, often simply because she was female, and obviously sinful (because of Eve, I guess). If you haven't known a rape victim, if you're not female and haven't lived in fear of rape, then I don't think you have a right to tell females who have that they must bear children.

End of rant.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Calm down for a minute
A situation like you posed is one of the reasons why I feel abortion has it's place in society. However, abortions are most often done as a form of after the fact birth control. That does bother me and I'm not going to lie and say it doesn't.

For the record, I AM a female. I use the screen name KaraokeKarlton because I have a fairly deep voice and do better singing guy songs than woman songs. Oh, and I have been raped. My ex husband was an abusive drunk and addict who thought he had the right to beat and rape me at will. He also killed my unborn child by throwing me down stairs. I am guessing this qualifies me to talk about the subject. I've also lost a loved one to murder and wish his killer faced the same fate.

For myself, I would never have an abortion under any circumstances, even rape. But I am a very strong woman and could handle that. Yet I know that not all women could, and abortion should be an option. It's simply not true that all people who don't like abortion believe that a rape victim should be forced to have a child by the rapist. Sure, there are some who think that way, but most don't. It is possible to respect abortion's place in society while still not liking it. That's where I stand. But again, this isn't supposed to be a debate about defending abortion or anything else. It's supposed to be about taking an honest look at the issues I listed and try to see the similarities between some issues that you support and oppose.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Damn skippy!
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. Who are YOU???
>>abortion of an unborn child that is most likely the result of irresponsibility on the part of those who created it?<<

Is this for real?
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. What I said is the truth
It's true that the majority of abortions performed in this country are not because of rape or incest or dire and worse than normal risks to the mother. I have a lot of friends who have had abortions...some of them have had several. The overwhelming majority of these abortions were had as the result of being irresponsible and having unsafe sex. Am I saying that anyone should be forced to have a child they don't want? Of course not. I am, however, saying that I think it really, really sucks that so many people don't think about the consequences of their behavior. If you're going to have sex and don't want a child, use birth control. Yes, there are times that doesn't work, I realize that...but the issue of carelessness IS a valid one, period. Everyone already knows that is the case, so it's really pointless to argue it. I could go find statistics to back that up, but I really don't think I need to.

Again...let's not turn this into an argument over whether or not abortion should be legal or is right or wrong. That's not what this thread was intended for. That argument has been done, done, redone and redone again a million times over and it resolves nothing. This is supposed to be about understanding and respecting views that differ from your own but are based on the same ideas that your views are. It's about tolerance.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
32. I think...
that you shouldn't make statements like the one I quoted if you do not want to have this turn into a discussion about whether or not abortion is right or should be legal. I also think you need new friends.

So, if abortion is ok if the woman has been raped or is in danger, that means that it is NOT the mortal sin you are saying it is. Originally, you stated words to the effect that, in your opinion, life begins when the sperm meets the egg. If that is the case, then it doesn't matter HOW the sperm met the egg and it doesn't matter WHO it would hurt if it were allowed to come to fruition. Cause if the life of the fetus is a human life with all the attendent rights, why would the rights of the mother to life supercede the right of the child to life? So, who gets to pick and choose which abortions are ok? You? Me?

HEY!! I have an idea!! How's about we let the woman who is actually PREGNANT decide??
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 04:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. If you don't the difference between
abortion and the death penalty then chances are you aren't rational enough to have discussions on any of the issues.

There are no similarities between the issues you mention. Killing a human being is not the same as removing a fetus and smoking a joint is not the same as running around with a machine gun.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. It's not that black and white
Do you realize how many women get abortions that they don't want to get simply because they are pressured by someone else to get one? That is a huge grey area. Do you also realize that there are many people in prison who want to die for their crimes? Another grey area.


Pot isn't the only drug. Someone addicted to crack and coming down in need of another fix with no money to pay for it can be much more dangerous than any gun. Another grey area.

A responsibly used and stored gun in the hands of a law abiding person is of no threat to anyone. Grey area.

You can't fairly look at the similarities by comparing the least serious issue of one thing and the most extreme of the other.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. Do You Know How Many Women Had Dangerous, Illegal Abortions
Before Roe v. Wade? Kind of a grey area.

Pot is not the only drug. But it is the #1 source of drug-related crimes. Prison is no deterrent to a crack addict. The billions spent on the war on drugs could be spent on REAL education, not BS "just say no" paternalism.

Did I mention no one is talking about responsible firearms owners? It's the irresponsible ones that worry me.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Why do you assume I think abortion should be illegal?
I never said that, nor do I think it. It is possible to support abortion being legal and still hating that they happen. That's basically where I'm at.

Yes, I'm fully aware of the fact that when abortions weren't legal it didn't stop anyone from getting them...just like gun laws don't keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

Instead of looking at this as if I'm attacking legalized abortion, why not look at it the way I intended it to be looked at? Is it really THAT hard to understand and respect why someone might take a position contrary to your own? I don't think it is. I believe that people are using almost identical reasoning to defend their own stance as their opponent is.

Those who believe life starts at conception view abortion much like you view the execution of someone wrongly accused of a crime.

Those who oppose gun control view gun control much like you view the war on drugs.

Shouldn't this make it at least somewhat easier to understand and respect opposing points of view?
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #23
36. Just like...
Nobody really cares if a middle-aged couple lights up a joint on Friday nights and sit in their living room and get a buzz. I guess it is a major oxymoron to say "responsible druggie"; but if there is the assumption that you can consume alcohol responsibly, then why can't you smoke pot 'responsibly'?
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German-Lefty Donating Member (568 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 05:22 AM
Response to Original message
7. I'll be nice. There are people who wind up hypocrits.
Yeah, I've talked to pro-life activists, that were religious, and guess what they also are against the death penalty. Maybe they take thier religion's respect for life completely seriously. I don't agree with thier position, but at least it's consistent. They think killing is always wrong and that feti are or could be people.

You may have a little point that the ones that are ok with the death penalty are forgetting(ignoring) that the victim could be innocent.

In my book gun laws and drug laws are sad. Why? Because they are saying the individual is not responsible enough to deal with these things. You can make the same arguements about seat belt laws and drinking ages.

There is of coarse the American idea of the right to bear arms to secure freedom. Nobody in Germany gets this. The right believes in this more than the left in the US. I sometimes wonder why. If I'm worried about an industrial military complex taking over, police state, or Bush coup, don't I want to have some weapons too? There have been militant left wing organizations too, though we may like to disown them.

Of coarse this makes no sense to a true pasifist, who is also completely consistant when he calls for the distruction of all weapons.

Many people on the left though aren't like this though, they just hear about horrible gun deaths and want to reduce them. Just like people on the right hear about horrible drug deaths and want to reduce them.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. I'm so glad you "get" the concept behind this thread!
I'm not looking to wind anyone up, though...just get them thinking. Thank you for your post...I'm glad you made it!
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
16. Birth control??
Do you use birth control? That is interfering with life, too. When do you draw the line? I do NOT support abortion. I support CHOICE. The difference is not just a sophism. I believe that every precaution should be taken to prevent and unwanted pregnancy. I believe that REAL sex education and not just abstinence should be taught to our children. I believe that all safe methods of birth control should be available to women and men. BUT if a woman has gone through all of that and finds herself pregnant, I cannot see how I can tell her whether she should have that child or not.

I am anti-death penalty until we can truly prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone has done the crime they are accused of. It is truly horrific to think that innocent people have been put to death. If you can PROVE somebody did some heinous thing, I am all about weeding them out of the gene pool.

What about the hypocrisy of alcohol and tobacco being legal?? You think we should decide between abortion or the death penalty, I think you should choose between alcohol (one of the most 'expensive' drugs by far for this country) and marijuana.

And, uhhh, yeah, I have thought about it. Have you??
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Two Snaps To You!
You go girl! Tell it like it is!
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Ironically, our views on abortion are pretty much identical
It might be that I dislike it considerably more than you do...but I hold the same overall view that you do.

I also see a lot of problems with the death penalty, as you clearly do. And, just like you, I see nothing wrong with executing someone who has, indeed, committed a heinous crime.

Laws, laws and more laws...which ones are necessary and actually do something and which ones don't? It's trial and error. Bottom line is this...if someone wants to get or do something badly enough, they're going to. No amount of laws are going to stop or prevent it. If someone is a criminal they don't respect or pay attention to laws anyhow. They just do what they do. We need to be very careful to protect the liberties of the people who do respect the laws and make sure that we don't infringe on their rights. If they aren't out committing crimes, why should they be penalized for the behavior of those who don't respect the law? There needs to be balance and fairness.

Oddly enough...if our country made it a policy to execute anyone who intentionally takes a life with a gun not in self defense it would do far more to eradicate gun violence than more gun laws would.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. You have been sent here
To make my brain explode.

Or to teach me how NOT to attack someone personally when they say things that make me want to reach into the computer and kill them.

So, given that I do not want to be banned from here, I deleted the first twenty things I wrote.

First, you cannot even imagine how I feel about abortion, so don't try.

Second, if life is sacred...well, then life is sacred. You are wallowing in the same contradition that you noted in others. You are anti-abortion and pro-death penalty. That doesn't make any more 'sense' than being pro-choice and anti-death penalty and so neatly negates the apparent premise stated in your opening post.

Third, I assume that you are talking about gun control when you talk about being very careful to "protect the liberties of the people who do respect the laws and make sure that we don't infringe on their rights". Your rights, as stated in the third amendment to the constitution, are as follows:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

It does not say, "to make you feel safer you have the right to stick a semi-automatic rifle in the closet" or "since there are so many times that you might need a gun when going down the road, it's ok to carry a 9 mm in the glove compartment".

It is a travesty that the NRA and gun lovers even try to pretend that the casual right to own a gun is protected by the Constitution. It is obvious to anyone with more than a third grade education that the intent of the amendment (an amendment, BTW, that was written 250 years ago when times were VERY different and we didn't have a million man standing army or the National Gaurd) is for the people of the United States to be able to defend the STATE (You know, like it says in the amendment??). Not to make themselves feel bigger or better by carrying weapons that our forefathers could not even have imagined. So you see, I do not think that you have the 'right' to own a gun in the first place. Gun ownership is a privilege allowed and protected by the state, not a right. In our society's current incarnation, gun ownership is considered by the majority to be a desirable thing. Since we have a democratic society, majority generally rules. Hopefully, we will evolve as time goes by.



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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. Now hold on...I never said I'm anti-abortion or pro-death penalty
Slow down, and go back a re-read what I've written. I support abortion being legal and I support the death penalty being legal. I can do that while still not liking either one. You are telling me not to assume what you think and feel about these issues in one breath and turning around and doing exactly what you are telling me not to do in the next one.

You got one thing right, however, well...sort of. This thread is intended to help you learn some tolerance for the views you oppose, and perhaps understand them a little better.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Oh dear...
I expect if you want people to tolerate you, perhaps you should not presume to educate them.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. I think I found where I got my assumptions from....
>>You don't consider a fetus a life, but I do.<<

>> why is it okay morally to condemn the execution of someone who has done something terrible but wrong to condemn the abortion of an unborn child that is most likely the result of irresponsibility on the part of those who created it?<<

>>And, just like you, I see nothing wrong with executing someone who has, indeed, committed a heinous crime.<<

I think this may be where I got my ‘assumptions’ from. From the things that you wrote. You also started by saying that it was ironic for people to be pro-choice and anti-death penalty, a popular combination amongst Democrats, so I countered with saying that it is no more ironic than being anti-abortion and pro-death penalty based on the fact that life begins at conception and is sacred.


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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
28. Makes sense to me
First, flip it around and see that many on the opposing side could be considered just as inconsistent. Guns in the wrong hands are more dangerous than drugs in the wrong hands yet gun activists think guns are what should be easily accessible. That really makes no sense either. But to your point, people would be just as upset if prisons were filled with people who had done nothing more than have a gun. I don't think anybody is supporting that. They are supporting measures that make gun ownership safer and keeps them out of the hands of criminals. Our current laws aren't doing that. They are differentiating relatively harmless guns, like hunting rifles which could be equated to marijuana; from dangerous assault rifles which could be equated to heroin. I don't know why gun owners don't get it.

And I am one who is totally anti-death penalty and totally pro-choice. I believe State sanctioned killing is wrong and imparts the message that killing is a solution to dealing with problem people. It is part of the culture of violence and murder in the US. The slightest notion that mankind has the capability to carry out executions free from all prejudice implies a greater capacity than we actually have.

Abortion, on the other hand, is usually the removal of cells and tissue that is not life. Zygotes pass from a woman's body during menstruation all the time and nobody grieves or even knows. For years, early stage miscarriages were met with disappointment; but not funerals or behavior that would equate the actual loss of life. The miscarriage was often flushed or disposed of in the garbage. Sorry if it offends you, but it's true. In addition, there are a variety of medical conditions that would require an abortion and the values of that are different in different religions. It is too complicated to legislate which means it should be left to the woman and her doctor. There is nothing hypocritical in differentiating abortion from the taking of a full term human life.

So it makes perfect sense to me. It's the millions that have been spent on rhetorical campaigns, to create a Republican agenda where one never existed, that has things all screwed around.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. Thank you!!
>>They are supporting measures that make gun ownership safer and keeps them out of the hands of criminals. Our current laws aren't doing that. They are differentiating relatively harmless guns, like hunting rifles which could be equated to marijuana; from dangerous assault rifles which could be equated to heroin. I don't know why gun owners don't get it.<<

Bingo.

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George_Bonanza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
29. My stance
I too am firmly pro-choice and relatively firmly anti-capital punishment, although this has to do more with personal sentiment than a life of book digging.

Why am I pro-choice? I do not believe that a 1 month old fetus qualifies as a human. It is on the path of being a human, like a sperm, or an egg. A fetus is not a dangerous parasite to be deposed at a whim, but neither is it an actual baby. When the baby hits the 6 month mark, I consider it too advanced as a fetus, and much closer to being a baby than it is to be a primitive fetus. I personally wish abortions to be limited to the 8-week mark. Some pro-lifers may jump at this as hypocrisy, as a sort of "go all the way or not at all" attitude, because they know they'll win at this one. However, that is not the case. Pro-choice is not really pro-abortion to the max. It's not my pro-choice attitude wants the most abortions possible. It's the opposite. The ideal world would have no abortions because every conception would be planned, expected, and wanted. However, that is not the case. And whether or not we personally believe in having abortions, there will always be desperate and impoverished people who will. And who are we to impose our almost purely philosophical beliefs on those people? The fact is that with illegalized abortions, alley clinics will perform unsanitary and unsafe abortions, resulting in the deaths of many women. People who see this as an acceptable sacrifice to save some fetus are in direct opposition to my beliefs.

Not to mention that some of most important Catholic theologians, such as Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine, never mentioned about a fetus having a soul upon conception. Augustine opposed abortion purely on the fact that sex was only for procreation, and Aquinas believed the fetus got its soul upon quickening, which occurs about 6 months into the pregnancy.

Abortion is almost a purely philosphical issue. Data and research are usually obviously swaying one way. Study shows that a fetus can feel pain anywhere from 7 weeks, to 7 months, depending on the scientists. Not to reliable IMHO. And in a purely ideological issue, it's best to take the libertarian side of letting the people choose.

As for the death penalty, the fact that an execution costs more than life imprisonment is enough for me. And the fact it's non-reversible, and the fact that it seems like cruel revenge don't make it too appealing for me. But I think the death penalty should be reserved for the most extreme of criminals, like terrorists like bin Laden or insane dictators like Hitler. But like that happens so often it's really an issue.

As for the drugs and guns... Marijuana laws are bad because it impedes the whole war against drugs by sucking up funds and prison space. Most pot users are relatively harmless people doing a relatively harmless subtance, a substance no more potent than your average liquor or cigarette. Marijuana laws simply distract the whole purpose of shutting down drug operations. It focuses too much on the small fish.

Guns should only be used for self-defense purposes, and hopefully with the development of non-lethal weapons like tasers and tranquilizers, that too will no longer serve as a reason to own a gun. Things like assault weapons with long barrels, big clips, and scopes are NOT self-defense weapons. They're either for assault or for compensation. Therefore, they pose an unnecessary risk and danger. It's true that only 1% of gun crimes are actually assault weapon crimes. However, just because we've yet to see a 100-man slaughter with a AR-15 doesn't mean we should wait for it to happen before coming to the obvious conclusion that assault weapons don't share the pistol's partially redeeming quality of providing ideal self-defense. I mean, think about it. A man protecting himself against a home invader would much rather have a small, easily wieldable handgun than a big ass rifle he can't get through the doorway.

On drugs, there should be some leniency until you reach a boundary. That leniency area is pot, and everything harder is past the boundary. Same with guns. Handguns, the self-defense weapon, is in the leniency zone. Everything deadlier and more sophisticated, go beyond the basic necessity for self-defense and are simply overkill for the job. Again, hopefully with the advent of non-lethal weapons, families can protect themselves non-violently.

A gun itself isn't dangerous. A murderous person is dangerous. But the latter becomes a helluva lot more dangerous with the former, than with any other weapon. A crack addict who's out of his mind running at you is dangerous, but imagine how much more dangerous he'd be with a gun, instead of a short-range knife.

PS The paranoid delusion that we need to arm ourselves against our government is a mockery of a civilized democracy. With us potentially purging bad officials every 4 years, is it really possible to have suddenly a dictator rise up, without even evoking the slightest bit of international alarm, or care? Isn't Nixon about the worst president you can get, one who's willing to obstruct and sabotage justice for personal gain? Well, look how he turned out, and I don't think any sane person felt the need to cause an uprising against the Nixon administration with AKs and grenades. Same with Bush. He is one of the more openly hated presidents in awhile. Yet none of us would dream of creating a violent uprising, instead, trusting the election process and free speech. This fantasy scenario of a need to violently purge the government is unrealistic and overly paranoid.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. I agree...
with limiting abortion to the eight weeks. These days, you can know if you are pregnant the first day your period is late, meaning you might be two weeks along. 'Back in the day', it tooks weeks and weeks to even know for sure if you were pregnant.
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Thomas Jefferson Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
30. Choice and opposition to the death penalty both support life.
Both are about preserving life. The vast majority of those who support choice are opposed to abortions. The mortality rate from illegal abortions was staggering at the time of Roe v. Wade. The worst part was that it too often involved teenage girls who were too young to figure out how to handle their situations. Roe v. Wade doesn't encourage abortions. It encourages competant medical care. It may also cut down on the number of abortions by allowing a girl or woman to talk to a profession rather than grabbing the nearest hanger without any support or advise. A woman who is expecting regularly goes thorough a transformation that makes her much more protective of her unborn child. Those who obtain abortions would do so whether it was legal or not. Although their anxieties about having a child might be calmed if it was legal for them to seek competant legal advise and assistance.

Opposition to death penalty is also about preserving life. So many innocent people have been executed and it is sad that society has not yet learned the value of human life.

Drugs hurt the user while guns can kill countless innocent people. Drug-users need medical help or counseling so as to free themselves from any drug problems. They don't need jailtime any more than any other type of masochist. The gun laws are to protect the innocent from Columbines and from accidental killings where kids get a hold of guns and accidentally kill themselves or their friends.
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CoffeePlease1947 Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 04:29 AM
Response to Original message
31. You are confusing Morality and Legality
I agree that abortion and the death penality are both moraly wrong. They are both potential killing of a human life. But you have understand the perspective of realizing that the legal issues are way different.

A mother many abort a fetus for two major reasons. One, she doesn't want it. Or two, she does not have the ability to care for it. The only thing I can think of worse than aborting a fetus to have a baby born into the world that would not be cared for and loved. That to me is the breeding of monster and the most creul of things that can be done to any baby. We can argue that babies can be put up for adoption. I think we should push for that too. But most people are not lining up to adopt a child that has a major deformaity or of another race. You cannot force a mother to love a baby, you cannot force people to raise a baby that is not theirs. Nor can you prevent people from flying to another country and/or purchasing drugs on the black market to get an abortion. You cannot stop a pregant women from drinking, doing drugs, or throwing herself down the stairs if need be. The best thing we can do is try to convience people that they should have the baby is pregant and give them the tools and help needed to bring that baby into the world with what they need. We can also preach abstance and birth control to prevent the pregency in the first place.

In terms of the Death Penalty it is preventable through laws. Simply do not allow our criminal system to kill people.

I don't oppose guns, I oppose drugs being illegal. We are the only country that allows the general public access to guns and drugs. This is a bad combination. If we legalize drugs, the criminal element is gone and guns are no longer a huge problem. We can't get rid of guns or drugs from our society, but we can make it so the people are not using the guns to get the drugs.

Mike
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