Dean and Cuba - asking for information

[MostlyBlackCat2]

Hi - I'm a Dean supporter, and I really like the man. One thing I've been telling people I like about him is how when he takes a stand he keeps it. Now there's all these stories about him waffling on cuba and supporting the embargo. Can any other Dean supporters address this issue please? I mean, the embargo only hurts the common people of Cuba, and discourages trade. And yet, when I saw the Dr speak to folks in Iowa, he talked about trade as a way to support the development of a middle class in third world countries. Why is he now supporting the embargo.

And I do want to hear from other people who get this issue as it pertains to Dr. Dean's campaign. If you're just going to post to flame Dean or Dean supporters or talk about how he's unelectable or not green enough or not dem enough or that sort of thing, please start your own thread. Sorry to sound like a snit, but some of the flame wars on DU lately have really been out of control.

(I posted this on the GenDiscussion board earlier today where it got 3 one line responses and promptly dropped to the second page. so i'm trying this forum instead.)

[wtmusic]

1. From DeanforAmerica.com

Makes total sense. If they want the benefits of free trade they're going to have to play ball in the human rights arena:

Trade with Cuba

The Trade Sanctions Reform and Export Enhancements Act (TSRA) that passed in 2000 and allowed food and medicine exports to Cuba through third-country financing resulted in a $165 million increase in revenue for farmers in 2002. Lifting further sanctions and allowing the direct sale of food to Cuba could mean as much a $1.25 billion in added sales annually according to a Texas A&M study. We cannot reward Castro for his recent human rights abuses, but I believe that we will further the cause of democracy in Cuba with the eventual lifting of trade sanctions. As president I will:

- Move towards the eventual lifting of the trade embargo with Cuba in order to open a new market to American farmers and to push forward the forces of Democracy in Cuba

- Make clear that Cuba will not be rewarded for continued human rights violations

[papau]

2. Exactly what are you looking for?

In response to your GD thread,

JI7 suggested Dean wanted support from cuban american community ( I think it's because he wants support in money or votes or both from the pro embargo cuban community.

jiacinto said he would ignore the Castro supporters here There is a small minority here who worships and glorifies Castro as if he were a God.

and papau said it was a Response to Castro's recent "free speech" activities - to postpone lifting the embargo - per Dean -Not quite sure it helps anyone to postpone - but ir may help election

And now wtmusic suggested going to the Dean web site: DeanforAmerica.com

where you find "We cannot reward Castro for his recent human rights abuses, but I believe that we will further the cause of democracy in Cuba with the eventual lifting of trade sanctions. As president I will:

- Move towards the eventual lifting of the trade embargo with Cuba in order to open a new market to American farmers and to push forward the forces of Democracy in Cuba

- Make clear that Cuba will not be rewarded for continued human rights violations"

Exactly what are you looking for?

A "Cuba has done well" editorial is at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=8229

with a response that notes the lack of "freedom" in Cuba, but does not define what Freedom is lacking (I'd suggest free speech and freedom to go against Castro's wishes - as in he is a dictator).

[wtmusic]

3. Good info

Thanks papau--the Cuba issue has always been surrounded by controversy and polarized feelings. IMO Castro wasn't given a fair shake in the 50's and after the missile crisis most Americans believe him to be evil without being able to justify it.

Human rights means freedom of speech, freedom from persecution based on beliefs, ultimately the right to vote and a move toward democracy.

[papau]

4. I agree - Ho wanted friendship with US - Dulles refused, - Castro

wanted neutral US - Batista's thugs wanted "their" money back and Ike allowed the Bay of Pigs attack to be planned.

But Castro is a Dictator - if Che had lived, it would have been otherwise - but he didn't - and reality is that the horror that was Batista's Cuba is no more, but at a cost in political freedom.

[Zuni]

5. hold on

Che was more dictatorial than Castro. He was a hardcore Leninist, the ost dictatorial type of Communist (next to Stalinist). He even named his son Vladimir.

[DrFunkenstein]

8. Anyone See "Red Dawn?"

I always find the Cuban guy so fascinating as he tries to come to terms with turning from revolutionary to counter-revolutionary. I think it says alot about America, as well.

[papau]

9. Lenin was not into mad dictator - Stalin was - likewise Che

was an intellectual who wanted to reset system so rich did not screw poor - there was nothing about dictatorship or harsh treatment of "political" disagreement - at least IMHO! Now what was political disagreement and what was CIA trying to re-install the Batista rich, which one did deal harshly with, well that's a tough call

:-)

[Zuni]

6. Batista's Cuba

was more of a corrupt autocracy than a 'horror'. It was still one of the more prosperous Latin American countries, and had high literacy rates. Interestingly, Cuba never had refugee crises under Batista. Aside from batista supporters and organized criminals who fled right after the revolution---many former Anti-Batista campaigners and ordinary citizens fled the first chance they had. Many Anti-Batista campaigners fought for democracy and were not happy when it became a case of one dictator replacing another. Thousands of dissenting former Anti Batista fighters were imprisoned, shot, denounced etc.

I think a lot of talks of how much castro has improved cuba is a myth, as are the reality of the blockade which is rarely enforced. Cuba gets billions of dollars from the US every year, especially from relatives in Miami.

[papau]

11. I agree anti-Batista Cubans left after 61-62 when Castro turned dictator

But ask some folks just how bad the life was - the need to whore and steal to survive. Stavation in rural areas.

Literacy was a third of what it is today, and the average wealth was made up of some very wealthy folks and the poor - there was little "middle class".

I agree that Thousands of dissenting former Anti Batista fighters were imprisoned, shot, denounced etc - and that was the evil of Castro. But the change in health, education, even morals is amazing.

Saddly some of that is slipping away as Castro tries to open up Cuba for the post Castro "Western" economic rules.

[burr]

14. "more than a corrupt autocracy than a horror."

Am I the only person who finds this comment morally corrupt? Let me just suggest to you, shrub is your man.

Education for the privilaged, healthcare only for the elite, and then there was Batista's support of Cuba's organized crime and its black market. Without this, he would of never held power. It was his abuse of this power which made Castro into the dominant force in Cuban politics.

[JohnKleeb]

15. mob connections too burr

[MostlyBlackCat2]

13. Thanks! I couldn't find that

on the deanforamerica site.

I guess the thing that's confusing me is that people have posted that he waffled and is now supporting sanctions and the embargo? But the above info from the site makes it seem like he supports lifting them because it's good for the people of Cuba and good for our farmers and economy.

so now i'm even more confused. did he waffle? and if so, why?

[DrFunkenstein]

7. I Don't Know Enough To Really Say Either Way

But I do know what the effects of the UN sanctions were on the people of Iraq. I would hope that any candidate would ultimately have the well-being of the Cuban people as a first priority. But I, too, was shocked and dismayed at Castro's recent actions. How to go about responding is beyond my knowledge at this point, though.

I understand that Dean's stance on Israel may be influenced by his Jewish wife and children, but I have more hope that he will do the right thing for Cuba.

[renie408]

10. How bizarre...

The reason I am not real high on him is that for every stand he takes, you can find contradictory comments about it that he has made.

[DrFunkenstein]

12. It Is Starting To Add Up, I Agree

A pattern does seem to be emerging.

[dsc]

17. Do you not change things when facts change

Say you tell your kid he can borrow your car. Then you find out he drank a fifth of booze. Would you consider it contradictory to now say you won't let him drive? Castro behaved very badly and Dean says, rather sensibly IMO, that lifting sanctions now would look like a reward.

[dsc]

16. Please point out the waffle

Maybe I am particularly dense today but I fail to see anywhere in your post where you quote him as ever not supporting the Cuban embargo. You haven't provided any link to go to. So if he did change position I need to see that.

Like it or not, and I don't, no person running for President is ever going to come out against that embargo (especially after Castro just sentenced several people for the crime of hating him). As long as Cubans live in Miami and vote on this issue, and we need FL to win the candidate will support the embargo. It is that simple.