How Dem Beltway Insiders are using Clark against Dean to Boost Kerry...

[KoKo]

Reading the barrage of articles from columnists normally considered "liberal" by us here on DU which are endorsing and in some cases heralding (Gene Lyons) Clarks possible entry into the Democratic field....I can't help but wonder why. And since I have a suspicious nature...I put on my "thinking cap" to try to understand this. Here's my thought.

The McCarthy/McGovern spin by Lieberman and other loyal to DLC has failed. Those of us agains the "Invasion" just got more angry and gave Dean more money.....and we gave Kucinich money, too.....we are the ones who want change and we will put our little dollars where our heart is. So both of them got a boost no matter how hard the "beltway insiders" tried to push Dean as the person who will lose against Bush because he is "fringe."

Lieberman is dead in the water it seems, and Kerry (whom my own congressman said in a town meeting last week) had been considered the one that everyone had to beat because he was considered "THE CANDIDATE" by insiders) has had big trouble getting any traction against the "Dean Machine," because of his "War Vote."

So, bring in Wesley Clark! Prop us a "new" candidate whose national security credentials are impeccable, who appears to be someone both the "fringe" anti invasion protestors (because of his criticism of how the invasion is being handled)and the "strong military/defense" types will find acceptable. Encourage columns about what a strong foe he could be against Bush and keep people guessing about when he will declare.

ONE BIG PROBLEM: Clark doesn't have any governing experiece except in a military setting.......he has NO voting record to examine, he has been military all his life except his brief stint a "Venture Capitalist" and his dealings with an "information gathering company" with curious Repug ties (Anxicom) and a stint on CNN as a "Military General Pundit).

Now, for folks who support Dean and Kucinich this is not a person who is going to go over very well. We don't trust the military and having become politcally active know how important it is to see someone's voting record and to trust that they have some political accountability for their actions somewhere that can be examined. To us folks, voting for Clark is totally unacceptable. BUT..........he makes an excellent TROJAN HORSE!

Clark could be the Trojan Horse to conceal the true purpose of his "undeclared candidacy" which is to make John Kerry who is without a doubt the only politically experienced military candidate with a visible political record which cancels out Clarks total political inexperience.

Why else would "Inside the Beltway" and DNC DLC'ers support a total military guy from Arkansas? Give me a break.......
These folks are hardened politico's they only do things to keep their paychecks and lifestyle fat and happy. They thrive on the establishment. A General from Arkansas????

No, it's the Trojan Horse to finally make Kerry the frontrunner. The only way to beat the "Dean Phenomenon" is to go at his weakness.......Military Experience. It's the "War" that's gotten the attention and not the "Economy, Stupid!" "Beltway Insider Dems were thrown off and now they're fighting back. (BTW: not trashing Conason, Lyons, etc. just saying that they may feel Kerry can win and will give Clark a boost in attention in their columns....because they want Bush out,too, but they are Democratic insiders, we need to remember that..)

So, bring in Clark, knowing he's unacceptable to the Dean/Kuchinich's pump up his glowing liberal credentials....all the while knowing that it brings Kerry into the forefront as the "Perfect Melding of Military and Political Experience." He becomes the "anti-Clark" and the dialog shifts from Dean to How Clark and Kerry compare.

It was this quote from an Eleanor Clift article that caused my head to explode with this theory:

"The mounting anxiety about Bush’s course in Iraq and
at home fuels Democrat Howard Dean, the most aggressive
of the president’s challengers. Party leaders worry that
Dean, another liberal from a northeastern state, will consign
the Democrats to four more years in the wilderness. But it’s
not Dean’s views on national security or the economy that
make him vulnerable. “I can tell you what Rove will
do,” says the Capitol Hill Republican, predicting ads by
“Citizens for the Protection of the Sanctity of Marriage,” or
somesuch group should Dean become the nominee.
That’s why as the situation in Iraq appears more dire,
Democrats are buzzing about the likely entry of former
NATO general Wesley Clark into the race. But it’s not
Clark’s critique of Iraq that enhances his candidacy, it’s the
military sense of values that he can convey. However badly
Iraq goes, Democrats can’t win national elections unless
they’re able to address their social and cultural weaknesses.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/959234.asp?0cl=c1

[Nashyra]

1. He's a viable alternative,

and is a new voice in the primaries with an impeccable record. The goal is to get * out of the WH, if it can be done with a Clark candidate so be it. As much as I like Dean his weak spot does appear to be a weakness in National Security, not that is true because he has no experience in that arena, however Clark has no experience in "governing". It remains to be seen which issue will resonate more with the voters in the primaries and which candidate will appeal more to the general electorate. If one or the other appeals less to the general electorate than that one should not be the Dem candidate. Please notice that I have not exclaimed which candidate would be more appealing as we really don't yet know, it is too early to tell. Obviously I prefer Clark but that is strictly a personal choice and I will work for the Dem candidate that is chosen in the primaries.

[dfong63]

13. i have an impeccable record, too

He's a viable alternative and is a new voice in the primaries with an impeccable record.

i have an impeccable record also. i have never lost at tennis!

of course, i also have never played tennis. but never mind, my perfect record should make me the top seed at wimbledon - right?

As much as I like Dean his weak spot does appear to be a weakness in National Security, not that is true because he has no experience in that arena, however Clark has no experience in "governing".

Clark also has no experience in electoral campaigning.

[BJ]

2. Aren't you a little tired of "only a Southern Democrat can win"

Good post.
From what I've learned of Dean he's not as "liberal" as the "liberal media" would lead us to believe.

I've previoulsy read in this forum that Clark, being from Arkansas, can win the South for the Democrats. I don't think that Clinton won any Southern state except Arkansas in '92 nor do I recall Carter winning any Southern states outside Georgia. Remember, Gore didn't even win his home state of Tennessee and came within a Flordia-stolen vote and a Supremem Court ruling of winning the general election in 2000.

I also think Clark's the DLC's poster boy should Kerry or Lieberman stumble in Iowa and New Hampshire.

[blm]

6. I never understood why the media built up the "Dean is a liberal"

myth in the first place, when everyone in politics knew that he was the most centrist candidate in the field.

[Kahuna]

18. The media is not responsible for the image that Dean nurtured....

Dean nurtured that image to gain acceptance of the liberal grassroots contingent. I find it interesting that at this early stage of the game he's trying to move to the center.

[ModerateMiddle]

24. two positions put him there

the anti-war stance and civil unions (read Rovian Gay Marriage, like it or not).

Those are traditional attackable positions from the right - hence his liberal label. It doesn't matter if he's in favor of a balanced federal budget, or if he's got an A rating from the NRA.

He will be labelled a liberal. Whether or not that will be enough to counter Bush's disaster of a presidency, it's too soon to tell. Unfortunately, we won't know the answer to that until we have no other option available to us - next summer.

[dsc]

7. You have a quite faulty memory here

Clinton carried all of the following twice, LA, TN, AK, KY. He carried all of the following once FL, GA, NC. Carter carried all of the following in 76 FL, GA, AL, MS. TX, VA, NC, SC, TN, LA, AR.

[BJ]

25. Thanks for setting me straight.

[dsc]

33. Sadly we can't honestly argue

they didn't win southern states. I wish we could due to my being tired of this we need a southerner to win crap. I think though that a Dean/Graham ticket could well win a southern state or two.

[seventhson]

3. Graet Analysis, Koko

VERY Skull and Bonesian that Kerry Cabal

[11cents]

4. Yes. Everyone but you and people just like you are tools

.. and journalists like Gene Lyons and Joe Conason, who we used to admire because they stood up to the Beltway pundit-idiocracy when virtually nobody else did turn out to be nothing but passive, forelock-tugging serfs to Beltway Insiders! Man! Thanks for the revelation.

Or could it be that people like Lyons, Conason, et al., who've been around the block politically many times, simply think that Clark, who is politically similar to Howard Dean, has a better chance of beating Bush? Could it be that just because someone disagrees with Deanite Received Wisdom on an issue of tactics really isn't necessarily a tool, but just ... somebody who disagrees?

[KoKo]

9. DLC,DNC,and Beltway Insiders are against Dean/Kucinich! Kerry's 'Da Man!

I'm sick of being a "Tool!" Used by the Media, by DEM Party Insiders! What the Hell have they done for us lately? We have a group in the WH installed by the Supremes, We Lost in the Mid-terms, and we are supposed to TRUST their choice as a Candidate for president? Does anyone here think Al Gore would have made a mess of this country? And did the DNC/DLC/MEDIA support Al Gore? Did they fight like hell to get him in office? Did they fight to expose what went on in Selection 2000? Did they fight against Bush's aggregious RW appointments? Did they immediately call for an investigation of 9/11? Did they fight against Bush's Invasion of Iraq?

We have been "Tools" too long. Now we are supposed to "trust" that the Beltway Insiders, DLC, DNC will know who the proper Dem Candidate will be. And, they've decided it isn't Dean! It was always Lieberman and Kerry.....but Kerry was their choice all along. I felt it then.........and I know it now.

Kerry is a fine man.....but he's not MY fine man......because of his war vote.....and other things. Just because "THEY" think he can win.......is not why he should win. He should win on his own because he speaks to the issues that we "fringies" have questions about. Until he does that.......I don't want him crammed down my throat with strategies like Clark......put in place to manipulate us.........

That's the point of my post. And, Wesley Clark from all accounts is a fine man, too. But, does he have the political experience to run a country of all the people? America is not the Military .......yet.....yet......and he's only used to "YES SIR! and SALUTES! That's the Military: Discipline, Order, and total allegiance to the "Commander-in-Chief."
That's the governing that Wesley Clark knows about..........as a Military Officer. But, that's not MY AMERICA!
A Military State.....and I will fight like hell to make sure it doesn't become one!

[diplomats]

11. Clark is only running because he thinks he can win

the nomination and presumably the presidency. I don't see how that helps Kerry.

[KoKo]

15. Because Democratic voters would vote for a Kerry with military & Political

experience over a Clark with just Military Experience.......no matter how liberal Clark says he is .....he has no voting record. When it comes down to it....those questions about Clark's political record and ability to govern a "non-military" country (like the USA) will come into question with the Democratic base.

Kerry has experience that Clark doesn't and they cancel each other out on the military so Clark will boost Kerry. Clark is the "Strawman"

[Kahuna]

20. WRONGO! A former general is just as likely to be elected as a

senator. You act as if America has a history of preferring senators over generals. We don't. American history suggests that the experience of a general is at least at par with the experience of a political hack. We're electing a president not so that he can be a politician. But so that he can lead the country and the free world. Clark is just as qualified as any candidate to lead us.

[Kahuna]

19. Conason, Lyons, Josh Marshall and Michael Moore and Cliff are trying...

to tell us something that we should maybe listen too. As you stated, they have been around the block politically a few times more than most of us. They just might have a clue.

[KoKo]

21. But, Kahuna, the strategy is not to elect your guy....it's to elect Kerry!

That's what you are missing from my post. Your guy Clark is being "used."

[unfrigginreal]

5. Clark has laid out opinions that would indicate that he is liberal.

That's the answer to your first question about why liberal columnists would say good things about him. Is that enough, I'm not sure yet. I'll be paying close attention to him if he announces.

Clark makes national security issues a slam dunk for our side, no other candidate on the Democratic side can claim that. Yeah, maybe he doesn't have political experience but to be honest, that probably plays in his favor.

I'm keeping an open mind toward a Clark campaign but I hope that the latest press suggesting that he won't announce until mid-September are wrong.

I understood waiting until Labor Day for an announcement but beyond that doesn't make much sense to me.

[dsc]

8. There are plenty of good faith reasons to support Clark

while I don't due to the fact he has given only platitudes on many domestic issues that I care deeply about, I don't think his support is some sort of anti Dean cabal. His supportes believe in good faith that he would be a winning candidate.

[diplomats]

10. I respect your opinion, KoKo

but I agree with Eleanor Clift:
"However badly Iraq goes, Democrats can’t win national elections unless they’re able to address their social and cultural weaknesses."

[KoKo]

12. What do you feel are our "social and cultural" weaknesses, though?

I was very offended by that statement. The Repugs are strong on those issues? How?

[renie408]

14. :) Thanks for asking that

I wanted to, but thought that they were supposed to be obvious and I would look like a doofus if I asked.

[KoKo]

37. renie408.....we are still waiting for answers....both of us. to Clift's

column. I have my own answers......but was waiting. Seems we are waiting forever for a refute to her. ''Thanks for asking if you are still here after waiting all this time........with no answer!!!!!!!! :evilgrin:

[KoKo]

16. BTW! Edit of my post: Clark is a "Strawman." Better analogy than Trojan

Horse. I should have thought a little long about that. He is the one being pushed by DLC to move the focus to "military experience" over someone who doesn't have it like Dean.

Maybe that's why Clark has waited so long to announce. Maybe he knows he's the Strawman and is willing to be just to get Kerry elected because he feels he would be the best candidate for the Democratic party.

I don't see anything wrong with that.......and Clark may even feel he does have a chance to win.

Power is a tonic! And, when people tell you that you should run (Draft Clark) then after awhile you start to agree with them...

[Kahuna]

17. What???????? The beltway insiders only want one thing..

they want to beat bush. Period. Since polls show that Dean is dead last in a head to head match with bush, they naturally want a Democratic candidate to prevail who can beat bush. Not just win a Democratic party beauty contest.

I think Clark is their ace in the hole. I don't see a darn thing wrong with that since beating bush is the objective. Not beating Kerry, Dean or Edwards. Beating bush is what we all should want.

[w4rma]

22. Gen. Clark seems to be friends with Gov. Dean. Vice President Clark?

…
What started as a point-by-point review of his economic and health care policies turned quickly into his dissertation on foreign affairs in Cuba, Saudi Arabia, North Korea and Iraq. Dean has been getting tutored on foreign policy by numerous experts, including retired Marine Gen. Joseph P. Hoar. He has also had several private conversations with retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark, the former NATO commander who some Democrats see as an attractive running mate for Dean if Clark does not join the race himself.
…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34389-2003Aug22.html

Dean launches 'Sleepless Summer Tour'
Would consider Wesley Clark as running mate
…
Dean-Clark in 2004?

On Sunday, Dean told CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer" that -- if nominated by his party -- he would consider tapping retired U.S. Army Gen. Wesley Clark as a vice presidential running mate.

"Yes," Dean said when asked whether he would consider asking the former NATO supreme commander to join his ticket.

"There would be a great many people, of course, that would be considered as a potential running mate. And I must say, I think it's much too early to discuss potential running mates. I mean, we're five months from the time the first official vote and delegate selection takes place.

"So I find it very premature. But I think Wes Clark, he's somebody I keep in close touch with. He's a terrific person, very bright, very capable, very thoughtful. Our views coincide on a number of matters, and he is -- I certainly can't say enough good things about him. It would be tough to run against him."

Clark, a former CNN military analyst, said Sunday on CBS' "Face the Nation" he would make a decision on whether to run for president "in the next week or two."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/24/dean/index.html

[KoKo]

23. Dean would be a political fool not to "court Clark." Doesn't mean DLC/Belt

way isn't using Clark to prop Kerry. Dean is being a "fox" (the clever kind) to enfold Clark and promote suspicions that he is looking at him for his VP.

It would be a very clever strategy.........

[budmo]

27. What a Coup

I feel certain, from all I've read, that Dean will pick Clark-even if he gets in the race. Clark's entering so late that it could be virtually imposible for him to catch up (though I am now a true believer after Dean- that anything is possible.) I think there is a stradegy at play here. Clark enters...captures the mods who are sitting in their "glory Days" of the Democratic party, ..stirrs up the undecideds ...never catches Dean but pulls out and endores him later...setting up the perfect trsnsferrence of voters, and credibility. Plus ...not long after that... Deans takes him as his running mate.
Perfect ticket...Answers everyones concerns and prayers.
Give us a politically bullet proof ticket to go up against Dumb(Bush) and Dumber(Rove).:toast:

[KoKo]

29. budmo....you may be correct! Really. But, I stick with my hypothesis

that Clark is being pushed by Beltway/DLC folks to focus us on "War" and "War" credentials.....so that Kerry get's the attention instead of Dean. I still believe that Kerry is the "Candidate of choice of that crowd" and I don't trust that crowd because the didn't support Gore and haven't supported those of us who "protested against the invasion."

Kerry voted for the Invasion.......so to get me to think about him.....they push Clark who's a nice guy with no political experience....so that I will get upset enough about Clark to start thinking about Kerry.....(that's if I haven't made my mind up....and I haven't....but Kerry has alot of explaining and convincing to do to me to get my vote.)

Kerry becomes the "anti-Clark vote" for those who don't like Dean. Convoluted logic?

[budmo]

31. KoKo 01 -Yeah But!!!!

I think what's at play here that none of the talking heads of the Dem. party (DLC/DNC) have been prepared for -is how current History is turning the tides so rapidly(Iraq-quagmire) that those of us who didn't agree with the war are now (with Dean's steady stand) proving to have been right all along. And in saying that..the military background plays no more value than someone with senate intellegence background, balancing a budget background, etc. The fact that Bush has created a climate that has now made us more unsafe than before 9/11 should be dumped on Bush-not Dean. Dean has a plan..he has a sound plan..it's called diplomacy...something Shrub never had. Kerry' won't be handed the nomination by Clark. Those of you who find Clark dissatifying will go to another candidate and I believe you'll find him quite appealing actually but as a #2 not a #1. It's Dean. He's got the guts and the plans and the energy to out run all these guys plus Bush. He hasn't even peeked yet and look at what he's acomplished.

[KoKo]

32. budmo...I like Dean have donated to him....still "undecided" though..but

love your enthusiasm about Dean......but you've got to realize that "political forces in place" will try to "deflect Dean."

That's the point of my post.....

The "powers behind the scenes or the 'Shadow Govt." will always be working against what we who have "Idealistic Principles" want in a candidate.

My post is really about: "Shadow Government." And, I'm between Dean and Kucinich......because my "hearts with them!" But......in the end.....I know that the "Shadow Group" will push "their" candidate......

So, I hear 'ya! I know what you're saying.......just figure it isn't always what you think..

:-(............oh if my idealism could come true........what could be..........out there..........

[budmo]

35. KoKo

It can...one person at a time!

One dollar at a time (as we've seen with the Dean Campaign).
I hear what your saying about the shaddow Goverment play ( the wizard behind the curtain kind of thing.) But I still believe we can beguile them all. For far too long wether Dem or repug establishment, they have moved the political process where they want it and manipulated and decieved us po folk here in citizen land, well Dean must be scaring the pants off them. He's awoken a sleeping giant. I like Dennis -he's a good man with a good heart and I can see him as a very effective cabnet member..but he won't ever pull the passion out of people like Dean does..and passion is what we had lost for so long-to have it back-to feel what that feels like again....makes one all the more resolved to keep it and not sell it to just any candidate.

[KoKo]

36. Well, you didn't hear me.....but I agree with you......so nothing more to

say.....:-)'s Good points and I hear it.....and I know it...but there are "shades" here that we need to think about....that's what I was trying to get at......shades and manipulation.......:-)'s to you......

[Egnever]

26. If in fact thats thier intention

Then I think they are way off base. Didnt we just have a polling here a week or so ago that showed when clark enters the race its kerry that suffers not dean?

Admitedly polls taken here arent really very scientific but i dont think it will actually be much different out there in the real world :P

[budmo]

28. Hey

Hey I love your Dean Graphic...where can I get that? It's amazing!

And by the way I agree with you. Clark would defiantly hurt Kerry more.....I've voiced it before..Dean/Clark....I thinkm it's already planned.

[w4rma]

30. "doesn’t eat into Dean’s lead…Dean is the only one who could hold his own"

…
Under the Clinton scenario, Kerry would fall into the second tier of Democratic hopefuls, favored by just 16 percent of voters. All the other Democratic candidates would be relegated to the single digits.

Dean’s support among independent- and reform-minded voters seems intact with or without Clinton in the race while Kerry would find his base of support among traditional Democratic voters threatened, according to Herald pollster R. Kelly Myers.

"If Hillary Clinton suddenly expressed some interest in the race, the biggest potential loser is Kerry," Myers told the Herald. "She doesn’t eat into Dean’s lead at all ... As of today, Dean is the only one who could hold his own (against Clinton)."
…
http://www4.fosters.com/News2003/July2003/July_28/News/reg_pol_0728a.asp

A new Prez Preferece poll
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=190456

Clark V Dean
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=196331

[KoKo]

34. Oh.....I think this is the "Ultimate Test" of Dean and he's passed it by

saying "Clark has been consulted and he likes some of his views on issues.....and whatever."

I think when Dean answered the "Clark Challenge" that way......he showed great political skills......and since I'm "undecided" I try to point out what I see about them.......whichever way it "comes down."

Dean is my "heart" vote.....with Kucinich second.......but I'm old enough to be a political "Realist." I've been through other campaigns and watched "media spin" and "Beltway Spin."

I just try to post what I feel....and notice with my experience and "throw it all out" on you guys!!!

What the heck! Good debates??????? :shrug:

[mot78]

38. Clark is NOT a DLCer

And I'm sick of you trying to demonize Clark simply because of his background.

[DJcairo]

39. I agree

A Clark candidacy will help Kerry by making military service a litmus test in this campaign.