Is this the next *meme*? Equating Dean with McCarthy?

[madfloridian]

You know, I respect Wesley Clark as a candidate. But this stuff will turn me off. I guess it is good to be prepared, to keep an eye our for the terminology.

http://www.theclarksphere.com/archives/000265.html#000265

SNIP....."The rumor mill runs this way: the Democratic Party establishment has, after flailing around to get the measure of the man, finally figured out what Dean is: Eugene McCarthy. A public, tired of bland lies and obvious deception - has turned to a candidate that is against. A candidate who can consolidate their desire for a simple slogan, a simple paln and a simple solution. Against the war they no longer feel a connection to, and against the pervasive sense that something is not right in the handling of the domestic. Eugene McCarthy stunned Johnson out of the race - and was only blocked from the nomination by the rising star of RFK. That was 1968. The establishment backed a sitting VP, someone with name and position - in the wake of RFK's assassination.

In the present, the choice between an candidate with establishment name recognition and an outsider - one who has drawn comparisons from those who knew RFK - is in stark focus. The establishment candidate is John Kerry, the outsider is Wesley Clark. The insiders - including Hillary Clinton - are going to mull John Kerry's announcement, and Clark's surge, and make a decision on which way to go. They set up this moment with Cuomo's endorsing Gore, and Gore endorsing ---- someone, later....."

[JohnKleeb]

1. I always thought Old Gene was the good McCarthy

Kerry isnt the establishment candiate. Clark well I guess hes an outsider. I dont know what to consider DK, hell hes something of his own, hes Dennis Kucinich and is unique. That said my problem with Clark is he wont declare his party.

[madfloridian]

4. I thought he was one of the good guys, too.

That is why I am puzzled by this.

[JohnKleeb]

7. he was but Id would have been for Kennedy

and Humphrey was a good guy.

[goobergunch]

2. Since I like Gene McCarthy (D-MN)...

equating Dean with him won't damage my support.

It would be nice to see the Clark supporters debate on the issues, though...but has Clark stated any issues? (note to Clark supporters: that's not a flame, feel free to post any issues he has stated. I'm just curious.)

[w13rd0]

3. I've seen others post from this website...

...and it doesn't fill me with feelings of bubbly goodness. But whatever, the entire analysis is highly questionable, and the tactics downright revolting. That can be their meme, but fully informed, when I see it pop up, I'll smack it down as the pure unfiltered bullshit that it is...

[Larkspur]

5. Clark has no campaigning experience

and Dean has been campaigning for some office since 1982. Dean won 5 re-election bids as governor, the last one was his toughest. Dean is battle tested in campaigning. Clark is not.

I can see Clark making faux pas and not having the experience to weather the backlash.

It will be interesting.

[LWolf]

6. Not to hijack your thread or

expose my ignorance too brutally, but...I can't stand it any more.

:wtf:

What is a meme???

[madfloridian]

8. If you go that site and look up "meme" it will help.

It is kind of like a "talking point". I hate them. I want sincerity.

I think it is under The Daily Meme.

These are being used here against the other candidates. I hate these tactics.

[madfloridian]

9. LWolf, here are his memes.

http://stoller.blogspot.com/

I have noticed that he had good things to say about Dean as per earlier articles, then supported Kerry, now supports Clark.
Maybe "Dean waffles" is not a good meme?

SNIP..."Ok, so Dean. Well, the DEAN IS BIG meme is, well, big. At this point, it’s said that it’s Dean’s race to lose, which is a clear spinoff of said big meme. A good countermeme, pushed by the ‘100 yard sprint’ and ‘Sleepless summer’ factoids, is that Dean is peaking too early. The success of ‘Sleepless Summer’ in both crowds and money, is pushing the Dean’s people are pros meme big time, and rumors of union endorsements on the Kos are fueling that as well. Of course, the peaking too early meme is not that good a meme, because all Dean has to do is to ratchet down expectations and beat them, which is what Joe Trippi is doing by lowbaling us with a $10.3 million Q3 estimate.

Those notgeniuses gents started a thread with rumors of $15-$20 million in the comments before someone went up and right killed those high numbers. My guess is the bat goes white hot again before Q3 closes. Other memes, like he can’t win, he’s another McGovern, he’s too liberal all are dying or tottering wildly under the reality that Dean CAN win with his Nader plus Tsongas plus Amazon.com approach. Deaniacs are likewise divided into angry Nader types, angry Tsongas types (?), and impressed bystanders/operatives who know a winner when they see one. So there are now good Deaniacs (dishonest meanies) and bad Deaniacs (angry honest yellow dogs). Litmus test: the good ones are pushing a Dean/Clark ticket, the bad ones are calling Clark a war criminal and pushing Counterpunch....."

See what I mean? I am just a person who right now is supporting and working for Dean. Nothing wrong with that. I don't like to be called such names.

Tinoire first noticed that a lot of such talk is being used here, which I just think is not right.

[LWolf]

10. So, in this context

a "meme" is a piece of rhetoric, which, when spoken often enough, assumes the mantel of truth, foundation in fact or no.

Business as usual. The dark, slimy side of politics.

[madfloridian]

11. Well-said.

Leave to a teacher to use just the right words.

;)

[LWolf]

12. You'd think

you could leave it to a teacher to type the correct "mantle," though!

Arghh!

:hi:

[Bread and Circus]

13. This is just one guy, definitely part of the Clark...

movement, but he is not "the movement", nor is he
directly connected with Clark.

I don't think Stoller's writings are virulent to any
other candidate, they seem more like observations than
anything else.

I am not super sure how they are helpful to anyone but
I don't think they are really harmful. As someone
who is very strongly connected to the Clark movement,
there has been no directive to take Stoller's writings
and use them in any way to tear other candidates down.

I bet if you wanted to, you could contact him through
his site, get a dialogue going with him and figure
out what he is trying to do. Communication and giving people the
benefit of the doubt is the progressive way, is it not?
I have talked to Stoller online, he seems like a nice guy.

On another note, do you honestly think that none of
the candidates have "talking points" written down somewhere?
It is a fundamental nut of politics and winning elections,
at least from what I have read. I bet you from Dean on
down to Braun, they all have "talking points".

"It's the economy, stupid" is a fine example of a talking
point, meme, or what-have-you that helped us win an
election. Isn't Dean's use of "I hail
from the democratic wing of the democratic party" another
use of a meme/idea/slogan/thought/talking-point (which,
coincidentally was intended to chide other candidates)?
The left uses them too, both openly and covertly. It's
kind of a form of brainwashing but it is as much a part of
politics as flip-flopping, empty promises, kissing babies,
and dropping dogs (although I am not sure where Bush is going
with that one). ;)

The real problem here is over-use of the word meme. IMHO, his
analysis is not bad nor does it seem too biased. Sure
it is biased some, he likes Clark, but it is no more biased
than the rantings and "group-speak" posted here daily.

I am at a point with the Clark thing where I think that win
or lose, I just want Clark to bring big ideas and a bold
vision of the future to the table. I'd like him to win but I'd
personally be happy if any of the fine Democratic nominees
were to defeat Bush. Personally, I think some of them are
political hacks and any of them that "stood shoulder to shoulder
with Bush" have a lot of explaining to do, explaining that
they have not done.

I am here on DU acting alone. I love the site and I love the
boiling blood here. I like it that we disagree. I came here in
part wanting to promote Clark, but moreover I just wanted to
share someone I felt positive about. I stay here and visit
daily because this place is volatile, vibrant, and interesting.
DU can be a little nutty and some here live in fantasy land but
I love it.

[madfloridian]

14. Agreed.

I found an article in which he says supportive things of Dean. His credentials are given at the bottom of the article. Bright guy. I just happen to think a lot of folks here might have been starting to use some of those talking points.
http://www.2020democrats.org/2020democrats/visions/html/Matthew_Stoller.html

I don't think Dean supporters should use such things, and I don't think they should be used intentionally on a supposedly Democratic board against other Democrats.

Notice that he was a volunteer for Kerry before he volunteered for Clark.

My criticism is the use of memes here, and I don't like them anywhere. They are not a sincere way of speaking. Dean should not use them, no candidate should.

I don't think most people even realize they are using them. That is why it is good to point it out.

[Bread and Circus]

15. Fair enough....

I am glad we can agree :)