Kerry slips to 4th in Meetup numbers...

[sfecap]

Dean - 96,700

Kucinich - 11,000

Clark - 10,600

Kerry - 10,200

Gee, behind a guy who isn't even a candidate...

[Andy_Stephenson]

1. His performance on MTP yesterday.....

wonder if that has anything to do with it?

[Cha]

2. I don't know...Dean's numbers multiplied after his grilling

from timmythegemonster.

[blm]

3. How many Firefighters are in the Firefighters Union?

How many veterans are there in veteran organizations?

How many union members do the Teamsters have?

Congratulations to all those who have joined Meetups and are now participating in political activism. Welcome. Glad you showed up.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

16. How many of these people

...are building websites, flyering, sending letters, reaching out to undecided voters in key primary states?

on edit, because my post sounded snarky (sorry): To clarify, I dig John Kerry, he's my strong second choice, and would be thrilled to support him.

But I often see this thrown out there, mostly about Gep and the unions, that he automatically has the support of all of the members. What kind of activism do some of these groups practice? How much do the members go along? For example, I watched * speaking in front of some union members today, will they vote for him because they are told to?

[blm]

24. It's the active members

who will do the activism. Just like the active meetups will do the activism.

Welcome to the process.

[DrFunkenstein]

4. Kerry's Been In That Position For Awhile

Do I seem worried?

I will always do what I can to help get out the message and build up Kerry's Meetup numbers, but I don't find it an indication of anything about the election itself. I am hardly surprised that an anti-war candidate and a guy whose campaign exists only on the internet are doing better on the internet.

Considering that most of the country doesn't even follow the race, but anti-war activists do, are you surprised? I mean, I would prefer to have the numbers that Dean does, but its not exactly the be-all and end-all of the American electoral process.

[sfecap]

6. I know...Kerry's just keeping his powder dry, huh?

He'll be charging ahead any day now! LOL!

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

5. Glad to see DK

gaining a bit of momentum! He has a great message, and adds much to the debates and forums.

[KaraokeKarlton]

7. Kucinich deserves more support than Kerry

He doesn't vote with Bush and demonize Al Gore like Kerry does. I like Dean better than Kucinich and I do think Kucinich comes across a bit too radical, but I'd rather see him elected than Kerry anyday.

[liberalpragmatist]

8. When did Kerry demonize Al Gore?

Could you provide an example or a link? I've never seen Kerry say anything that demonizes Gore.

[virtualobserver]

10. he repeated the "invented the internet" nonsense

while using it to attack Dean

[blm]

19. He made a sarcastic quip...one not based

in demonizing Gore, who he happens to be REAL friends with.

And, btw, he did so in response to reporters who deluged him with accusations that he stole an idea from Dean The reporters were PRESSURED To attack Kerry on a trivial matter, just like those same former Bradley workers pressured the press to go after Gore with trivial, trumped up accusations making Dean out to look like the victim.

No memories of the 2000 press campaign against Gore that was pushed by the Bradley camp?

[virtualobserver]

22. Gee, what a friend!

Dean's people "pressured" the press?

Wow, Dean's people are POWERFUL.

[blm]

26. Dean picked up Bradley's people.

They had practice at pushing bogus stpries.

Too bad you've forgotten. The viciousness with which Gore was attacked on trivial issues was astounding.

[virtualobserver]

30. I never saw any information about that.......

It felt to me like everybody was against Gore.

[blm]

55. It started before the NH primaries.

And it was instigated by these same Bradley campaign workers who now work for Dean.

[virtualobserver]

59. the spirit of that anti-Gore campaign seems to reside in the Kerry camp

not the Dean camp.

[Vis Numar]

61. mm

"it was instigated by these same Bradley campaign workers who now work for Dean."

Bullshit, outside of a few lackeys in NH.

[Larkspur]

51. And Dean picked up a lot of Gore Supporters, like me

so it's not Bradley vs former Gore supporters turned Kerry suppoters.

Based on Al Gore's SNL skit and most recent speech, I'd say that he is not in support of Kerry's positions, especially the Iraq war one.

[KaraokeKarlton]

11. He did it twice

I don't have links, but I'm sure I could find some. The first case is when he told democrats to "Get over it" in reference to what happened to Gore in 2000. The second was a comment he made to slam Dean where he slammed Gore as well. He basically repeated the "Gore invented the internet" and that he "didn't do so well".

He doesn't deserve support when he makes comments like that, IMO.

[DrFunkenstein]

20. Its Hilarious How Rumors Start

When asked by reporters (pressed repeatedly by Dean supporters) about charges that he was copying Dean's use of the internet, Kerry joked that the last guy to claim he invented the internet got alot of flap for it. As one of Gore's staunchest defenders, Kerry has earned the right to joke about Gore. Kerry was solidly behind Gore throughout 2000, and even went on Meet The Press 2 days before the election talking about the difference between Bush's AWOL and Gore's service. Here is another example:

On Monday, Kerry was asked by reporters to explain why he thought that questions surrounding George Bush regarding whether or not he had used cocaine were more substantively relevant than Gore's use of marijuana. Kerry, noting that Al Gore had already admitted his use of marijuana, said:

"(H)e (Gore) said 'I used it.' So that's not an issue... And I don't think Al Gore intends, you know, to make prior use an issue of other people, except to the degree that it affects public policy."

Pressed later on the question of the Bush cocaine rumors, Kerry laid out his thinking on why Bush's drug use, if substantiated, is indeed an important issue for voters to consider:

"The issue about George Bush is not the fact that he may have used it, said Kerry. "The issue about George Bush is, how can you, if you have (used cocaine), have a position that is so at odds in terms of being a governor where you send a lot of other people who may have done the same thing you do to jail. That's the issue. It's not a question of whether he used it or when he used it, it's a question of what his policy is today and whether that's hypocritical and dangerous."

http://www.stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/123/gorequestions.shtml

[virtualobserver]

23. rumors started by quotes of Kerry! yeah, if Kerry wouldn't open...

...his mouth, these "rumors" wouldn't get started.

[DrFunkenstein]

43. Taking Quotes Out Of Context And Magnifying Them

Is not exactly the same as presenting an actual account of what happened.

[KaraokeKarlton]

49. You mean like what a certain Kerry supporter does all the time?

Do you call that poster out on doing the very same thing? Come on, Funk, you are smart and certainly not blind. What is the difference between me doing it and Nicholas doing it? There is none. You can't criticize only one of us and still be fair.

[DrFunkenstein]

9. Thank You For That Thought-Out Statement

It was quite illuminating.

[KaraokeKarlton]

14. Sorry Funk...hope you won't take it personally

It seems that Kerry wants to go negative after Dean has not said anything about Kerry for quite some time now. Also, some Kerry supporters are behaving very badly here and not being challenged by their fellow Kerry supporters. So, it seems to me that this is the only way to respond to the falsehoods spewn about my candidate. I'd prefer it weren't this way, for what it's worth.

[Cha]

12. You speak the truth!

[DrFunkenstein]

13. You And Karaoke Are Fast Earning A Reputation

For your hard-nosed investigative posts that really get to the heart of what matters most for America's future. It's debates like these that really lends Democratic Underground all the breathless excitement of a Dean blog.

[virtualobserver]

15. I would guess that as a Kerry supporter........

you are unfamiliar with breathless excitement.

[KaraokeKarlton]

21. That wasn't fair...

Funk is not a bad guy and he's not one of the Kerry supporters who have been doing this to Dean. He's frustrated that people are doing to his candidate what others are doing to ours. He should be spreading his criticism of this behavior around equally, though.

[virtualobserver]

25. I know he's not a bad guy.

But I was born with the sarcastic gene.

Stop me before I post again.

[KaraokeKarlton]

28. Funk isn't one of the Kerry supporters you're fed up with, right?

So let's not take it out on him.

[virtualobserver]

32. I wasn't trying to be mean ........

But I fight sarcasm with sarcasm.

[Egnever]

52. he sure is :)

Although fed up is not how i would say it.

I expect the attacks veiled and unveiled in a political race. It doesnt really affect me so badly. However after having held back on the bashing for so long it becomes clear that funk and a handfull of others will never stop so its time in my mind to take the fight to thier own front steps. It doesnt mater how many times thier points have been refuted they rehash the same three things over and over. I am tired of playing defense. Its time for a little offense. Kerry is a walking time bomb so easily attackable its pathetic. Till yesterday I held him as a serious contender against bush. After yesterdays performance i realized that even now hes not willing to take the fight to Bush. Fine hes not willing to do it then get the hell out of the way cause we have a few capable candidates running that are willing to do it and have been doing it. My patience with kerry is at an end time for funk and his followers to play defense for a while!

[KaraokeKarlton]

17. You mean in the same way some Kerry supporters do?

Why aren't you chastizing them, Funk? I'm ONLY posting this stuff about Kerry because I am sick of Nicholas's crap mostly...but there are others who are doing the same exact thing I'm doing. I'll stop when they do. Please tell me how what I've posted is any worse for the party than what some Kerry supporters are posting?

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

18. You've gotten

a bit abrasive lately, and downright insulting. Sour grapes? Frustration that your hero isn't resonating with the public? I'd be upset too if my guy was on a downward spiral, but I wouldn't take it out on <insert candidate here> supporters. Instead, I'd be going to meetups and calling friends to spread the word about my candidate.

By the way, the Dean blog talks about Dean. I've noticed that the Kerry blog talks all about Dean too. What excitement the Kerry blog has! :)

[DrFunkenstein]

27. I Got Really Annoyed By People I Think Highly Of

Flaming Kerry's excellent Meet The Press performance by focusing single-mindedly on an aside about Bush being "likable." I let it slide for awhile, but it went on ALL DAY yesterday. That and the cheap (and false) smear about Kerry's medals, and a few other choice threads. It seems the level of conversation has taken yet another nose dive here at DU.

Plus, I'm hung over.

As for the Kerry blog, we are still dealing with an obnoxious number of Dean/GOP trolls. We have yet to figure out how to effectively ignore them. It'll come, though.

[KaraokeKarlton]

31. Welcome to the club, Funk...

I can't say I think "highly" of the people I'm annoyed with, but what you are feeling right now is the exact same thing Dean supporters feel everytime a handful of Kerry supporters do this and worse to our candidate. For the most part, Dean supporters are happy as clams talking about our candidate. Certain Kerry supporters have to jump on every single one of those threads and piss all over it. That leads to frustration and a lot more negative things being said about Kerry than would be if certain people on here would focus on their own candidate instead of obsessing over someone else's.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

33. Happy hangover

It's a good thing teachers don't have to work today. :)

I'm thinking about calling sick tomorrow myself...

[George_Bonanza]

29. Kerry and Gore

Look, educated people know that Gore and Kerry are buddies. Kerry could've ran for president in 2000 but bowed out to let Gore run, and was one of his strongest delegates. He attacked Bush ever since day 1, and even before he was president. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Kerry's joke about Gore was a tiny quip in Iowa. You don't think he's frustrated with the media on his ass about Dean all the time? And if you want to hold grudges against candidates all the time, how about when Dean called Kerry a copycat? Despite the fact that Dean's policies, in general, a shallower and less specific version of Kerry's. And Dean arrogantly assuming only he has the right to attack Bush without being unoriginal. Kerry was attacking Bush all the way back in 2000! Are you going to hold that against Dean, or will you just blissfully forget?

[KaraokeKarlton]

34. This bickering will keep resurfacing until Kerry supporters

do something about those among them who make it their life's mission to divide the voters and damage any chance of beating Bush by incessantly attacking Dean with falsehoods and mangled information. That is why negative things are being said about Kerry by Dean supporters...not because we hate Kerry but because we hate the behavior of some of Kerry's supporters. Stand up to those who are causing all the negativity and it would go a long way to stop it.

[George_Bonanza]

35. Who are these people?

I'd like to know names. You've obviously singled out Nicholas_J. Who else are the premier offenders, hmm? PM me if you don't want to say in public.

I can think of a handful of Dean supporters whose job is to perpetuate deafness and repeat old rehashed statements whenever they're backed into a corner. They're also the ones that jumped on Kerry saying, "He liked Bush," despite the fact that Dean was sympathetic to Bush during their governor years and the fact that Dean also said he thought Bush was a likeable guy who he tended to trust.

[KaraokeKarlton]

37. I'll name a couple more that come to mind right here

genius and DJcairo would qualify as well, although not as bad as Nicholas_J. As far as blm goes (who assumed I was talking about him as well in another thread), I think he assumes people support Dean over Kerry because they think Dean is more liberal than Kerry...but that's not the case. He's annoying in that he keeps beating a dead and irrelevent horse, but that's all I've seen from him, and it's not anywhere near the level of what the other three are doing. They start Dean hater threads all the time and I have yet to see any Kerry supporters tell them to knock it off. Many supporters of others did jump on Nicholas for that dumb petition to the DNC against Dean, but I don't even recall Kerry supporters jumping on him for that. What really has me pissed off at this point is that I was actually on welfare in Vermont both before the reform Dean did and for a little while after. The old system is a trap and no matter how hard I tried, I was stuck going right back to it because of my barriers. But when Dean reformed the system it finally addressed the barriers and REALLY helped become independent and self sufficient. But Nicholas was still going on and on about how Dean's welfare reform hurt people and kicked them off assistance. Those are such blatant falsehoods it's not funny. I'd put him on ignore but if no one calls him on this some people might actually believe it's true, and it's NOT! I have NOTHING against Kerry at all, but the nonsense from some of his supporters really makes me want to dig up anything I can find against him and spread it all over the internet. I really have to fight the urge to do that, too..and it's not because of Kerry himself, but the lousy behavior of a few of his supporters. I know it's wrong to think this way and I DON'T WANT TO. I'm serious here...I don't see any way to stop this division if other Kerry supporters don't come out strong against this behavior. I really feel like the only choice I have to counter what is being done by these few is to do the same to their candidate. I wish I had a little more self control...and I own that I'm bashing Kerry on purpose...and I'm telling you why, as well as that I would prefer NOT to do it.

[DrFunkenstein]

42. I Spoke To Several of These Posters

When DJCairo started posting I asked him to be more positive, and reasons why I thought he should. I've said similar things to blm and Nick J. I don't think I've said anything to genius, though, but I can't remember.

There are several reasons I feel are legitimate to criticize Dean for, just as there are legitimate concerns about Kerry. But I think criticizing candidates for dumb-ass reasons just pisses off Democrats we'll all need for the general election. You can be critical without sounding desperate.

Some of the Kerry supporters have very different agendas than my own. I've tried to encourage them to get on board, but I can't father over them anymore than you can over Thorsten Verbleen (or whatever his name is), the one person I have on ignore.

As for welfare reform, I don't really touch that issue because I am uncomfortable with Kerry's support for Clinton's reform plan. I understand that it is politically popular, but I have deep ideological problems with it.

On the other hand, I did post the Dean petition on Israel. Not to bash Dean, but to present a legitimate criticism and offer a chance for Dean supporters to get him on track. I feel very strongly about the issue, and feel it is a central to the war on terrorism and any foreign policy in general.

I appreciate your honesty about your intentions regarding bashing Kerry. I just think it is unfortunate that we end up debating at the level of the lowest common-denominator. We could have an excellent (and even educational) debate on the differences between the competing Health Care plans, for instance. Instead, we get into petty squabbles that advance no one.

[KaraokeKarlton]

54. I am pretty new here so I must have missed it

Although I think writing to Dean would be a much better way to go about influencing him in this area than a petition, I wasn't angry over your criticism on the issue. At the same time, I think you might misunderstand his position to an extent as he has also said very positice things about Palestinians and believes firmly in a two state solution.

I don't recognize the name of the Dean supporter you mentioned, so I can't really comment much about that. If I see something unfair, I'll say so, though.

I'm glad you understand where I'm coming from when I explained why I have taken to bashing Kerry. I would prefer not to do that, because like you, I believe that we ALL need each other come the general election. It just seems that when these individuals get ignored, new people who show up tend to listen to them and then it breeds more contempt. All it takes is one bad apple to spoil the whole barrel...and that's what is happening here.

[George_Bonanza]

57. genius is a Kucinich supporter, blm is good

You say he's clinging to the notion that Dean supporters think he's some far liberal. I don't know about that. But what I'm frustrated about is the unsubstantiated feeling among Dean supporters that Dean is some kind of political revolutionary who will change the system. I'm not accusing you of that, you admitted you're an independent, so you're most likely voting for Dean because you think he'll do a good job. But who I'm frustrated with are the people who think Dean is going to be the first honest president in history or something. To me, he's just as honest as everybody else, no more, no less. No, he's not going to "Take back the country" RatM style. That's stupid. He's not a revolutionary. He has gotten good internet support, but he will not listen to his bloggers once he's president. He'll have cabinet members to listen to if he reaches the White House.

[JohnKleeb]

58. genius isnt a Kerry supporter

Hes in our camp. That said you all had a notrious anti Kucinich poster in Thorstein Velben that said Thorstein made a pledge to stop bashing DK and btw his bashing was pretty bad. Thorstein we disagree on candiates but I see you kept your pledge.

[George_Bonanza]

36. I'd like his Meetup numbers to be higher

But I know there are many Kerry supporters out there who are not as familiar with Meetup as the Dean people. I, for one, would die to go to a Meetup but can't because of my location.

From the Kerry blog, there are many posters there who say that their Republican parents are switching to Kerry because even though he's a liberal, he has strong defense and diplomacy credentials. It's a very encouraging sight.

[DJcairo]

38. he's also behind a guy who has no chance so maybe your thread

shoudl read, Kerry, in second in meetup. The other two don't matter - well, unless Clark enters the race.
-Eric

[izzie]

39. Why is Kerry slipping?

I like what he talks about but he seems to go down all the time. He seems to know more than Dean about the gov but I like Dean better. Is it that Kerry seems so elite? These men all went to the same type elite colleges and came with silver spoons but some how Dean feels more real. Like he has dealing with real people. I am trying to figure why Kerry keeps going down.

[DJcairo]

44. Kerry is not 'going down' in fact he's about to start going up.

The race is going to be more competitive once Kerry announces. There should be no question about it. Also, once you see TV ads for Kerry in many of these states he is going to rise even higher. Relax, we'll soon enough have Kerry in the White House.

[DrFunkenstein]

45. Dean Is Manhattan, Kerry Is Boston

Dean has a grittier, angrier side that is more common. Kerry is dignified, which is unusual in our trashy culture. But don't mistake that for being aloof or out of touch.

If you watch Kerry get around people he trusts, especially veterans, you really get a sense of how real he is. If you read his interview in Windsurfer magazine, you seem him much more relaxed and off-the-cuff. He may not eat deep-fried Twinkies, but he's a real guy - a wild man even - and he deeply cares about what happens to people.

If you're interested, here's the interview that shows him hanging back:

http://www.americanwindsurfer.com/mag/back/issue5.5a.html

[DJcairo]

40. Kerry's meetup numbers have grown by 1200 people in a week!

Last week he was at 9150 or so and now is almost at 10300.

[George_Bonanza]

41. Excellent

[sfecap]

50. Wow! And he's trailing an undeclared "candidate"!

Howard Dean's meetup just passed 97,000...

[DJcairo]

53. Good for him who cares

Unless you can tell me that those 97,000 are NH voters.

[Logansquare]

46. An anecdote from the Kerry campaign in Illinois

I've been getting the impression from some of the press reports on Kerry's people that his election organization could be better. Kerry fans note: I'm am in *no way* implying that this is Kerry's personal fault! There have been stupid mistakes--the laptop theft springs to mind; but what really jumps out at me is a complete lack of interest in recruiting grassroots support, or at least not until Dean and Kucinich started doing so to great effect.

I have a friend who is a professional fundraiser, with a lot of experience working political campaigns. He likes Kerry, partially because he thinks he brings some creditials to the table that would appeal to swing voters, especially the distinguished military career. My friend is also a former moderate Republican; he quit the party in disgust 6 months into the current regime. He wanted to volunteer for the Kerry campaign in Illinois. Note that I said "volunteer;" he was donating his time and expertise for free. He sent his resume into the state organization and a letter of introduction. No response. He called and left a voicemail. No call-back. Now he's thinking WTF? Even if they didn't want to use my friend, he clearly has a lot of people and money connections that might be valuable to the Kerry people, but nobody even had the decency to say "Thanks, but no thanks" to him.

He felt sad, but said that his chief goal was to be involved in ousting the fraud in White House, so he is now working for another Dem candidate. I'm not at liberty to say whom, since my friend may become known in Illinois political circles and they might not appreciate the fact that he tried for the Kerry campaign first.

To me, his treatment by the organization mirrors some of the other anecdotes I've read about high-handed behavior. Some of those folks, maybe because they went all the way in 2000 with Gore, think they are all that.

[virtualobserver]

47. no one thought that grass roots organizing could have any effect

Big Donors and paid organizations were the only option.

I don't think that Kerry screwed up, I just think that Dean was the first Democrat to really make use of the available technology.

But it was driven by Dean's charisma and agressiveness.

Dean didn't expect it, the meetup groups sprung up on their own, and Dean's people noticed it and utilized it.

[Egnever]

48. after yesterdays evasiveniss

his spiral will only continue

[DJcairo]

56. "Evasiveniss" first of all is that even a word?

Second, Kerry was very direct, if you'd actually taken the time to watch the interview. he ahs admitted that he was slower in organizing the grass roots/internet effort but that he plans to increase both now that his campaign is preparing to officially announce.
Second, perhaps we Kerry supporters should start posting threads about how many names are currently on Kerry's coveted direct mail list. I hear that it's in the 200,000s and he has used it to raise 10 million over the last four years in preparation for his run.

[burr]

60. I must be getting hedge's disease...

where was he ranked in the last poll? :shrug:

[CWebster]

62. Kerry hasn't got a likeability factor

Sorry, but it matters.

[DrFunkenstein]

63. Kerry Has A Trust Factor

Sorry, but people are nervous about terrorism and they want someone they can trust. I'm not sure that Americans are going to want someone volatile in an already volatile world. Kerry is solid as a rock. He may not be a bumpersticker kind of guy, but people will understand that he has the experience and vision to navigate the troubled waters. Americans want a steady hand at the wheel.