Kerry supporters, here is your big chance.......

[virtualobserver]

to explain why I shouldn't care that Kerry voted for the Patriot act and the Iraq War resolution.

Don't take this as flame bait. Sincerely explain to me why I should not mind that he did these things.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[virtualobserver]

2. I think that you isolated the part that gives me a problem

2. His current explanation of the vote is not "I was fooled". It's "I voted to give the president backbone to give Saddam an ultimatum and to use the U.N. as a vehicle to disarm the Iraqi regime, but the president bungled the diplomacy." (My paraphrase)


My problem with this is that I could see months before the resolution that Bush was going to war no matter what. Kerry and others in Congress handed over their power to someone who had no intention of using diplomacy.

[liberalhistorian]

3. Exactly!

Kerry is just a repuke-lite and he just doesn't get it! Anyone with two working brain cells could see that Shrub was going to invade Iraq NO MATTER WHAT, and the fact that he didn't see that, or, if he did, he ignored it, doesn't speak well for him at all. And the PATRIOT Act vote...well, don't even get me started!

[DJcairo]

4. Well not neccessarily

The bill required Bush to report back to the Congress about his UN progress and there was a unanimous UN vote in support of inspections in January. For the first several months after the resolution passed , it looked as though the UN process might keep the hawks in control. I think the problem is, if you are a US Senator and have to vote on the issue and you know the president ultimately has the power to declare war, you want to vote for something you hope will exert some measure of congressional control over the apparent rush to war, It certinaly worked initally, but then Bush went off the deep end.
Kerry did not vote to hand over the power of congress to Bush. The Congress has no 'power'. They weren';t consulted on Haiti or Bosnia or Kosovo. Clinton did not go to Congress out of fear of getting a no confidence vote from the crazy Republicans who were in total control of the house and Senate. Bush could have gone to war just as easily without a resolution.

[liberalhistorian]

5. But what about his support of the dictatorial,

authoritarian PATRIOT Act? He should have damn well known better, and had the guts to stand firm and oppose it!

[DrFunkenstein]

7. Just Like Wellstone!

He should have had the guts to obstruct the massive anti-bureaucratic package a month after 9/11. A failure to do so is clear evidence that he is unlike Dean, who at the time was a shining champion of civil liberties making the rounds on the talk shows about the need to burn the the Patriot Act on the steps of Congress.

Dean showed us all the way with his brave stand back in September of 2001. I think.

[virtualobserver]

8. kerry voted for it

Kucinich and Feingold did not. So apparently voting no WAS one of the options.

Dean was Governor of Vermont and had no vote on this issue.


Kerry did and I hold him responsible for it.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

6. Wrong.

The first 23 paragraphs begin with "Whereas" and are basically statements of considered fact. The IWR then gives the "blank check" authority. The only part that requires WA(Whistle Ass) to report to Congress is this:

SEC. 4. REPORTS TO CONGRESS

(a) The president shall, at least once every 60 days, submit to the Congress a report on matters relevant to this joint resolution, including actions taken pursuant to the exercise of authority granted in section 2 and the status of planning for efforts that are expected to be required after such actions are completed, including those actions described in section 7 of Public Law 105-338 (the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998).

(b) To the extent that the submission of any report described in subsection (a) coincides with the submission of any other report on matters relevant to this joint resolution otherwise required to be submitted to Congress pursuant to the reporting requirements of Public Law 93-148 (the War Powers Resolution), all such reports may be submitted as a single consolidated report to the Congress.

(c) To the extent that the information required by section 3 of Public Law 102-1 is included in the report required by this section, such report shall be considered as meeting the requirements of section 3 of Public Law 102-1. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2002-10-02-iraq-resolution-text_x.htm


Nowhere is he required to report anything about UN progress. The bill "suggests" that he use the UN but never requires it. Any fair reading of the IWR will result in the fact that it was indeed a "blank check" authorization and any implementing of UN involvement was mereley suggested in the "Whereas" portion of the bill. Read it for yourself.

[hedda_foil]

9. And the meaning of every WORD of those paragraphs was brought out

by Senator Byrd, Senator Durbin, Senator Boxer, Senator Miluski, Senator Kennedy and MANY other equally well informed Senators on the fucking FLOOR of the Senate before the vote. Those like Kerry who voted for the resolution knew very well the full implications of what they were explicitly and IMPLICITLY authorizing.

And remember that the Senators who voted against this montrosity were fully as well informed as those who voted for it. They included some of the most senior members of the Intelligence, Armed Services and Foreign Relations Committees.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

12. Yup.

[styersc]

10. You're right.

I'm voting for Bush. To hell with Kerry's 30 years of liberal leadership.

[virtualobserver]

11. so you don't mind then....

that Kerry voted to give power to Bush and Ashcroft.

Are Kerry and Bush the only people on the ballot?

[styersc]

13. The power to go to war was given to Bush by the US Constitution.

The Patriot Act was a terrible piece of legislation but would have been enacted through martial law had the law not been passed. You seem to want to look at these events without considering the reaction of the country to 9/11. The American people demanded action, even bad action, and an elected official would have been committing career suicide to debate civil liberties rather then come up with an action- practically any action. That is why the PAtriot Act has to be watered down to the point that it is all but eliminated and will be by any Dem who takes office. The key is to run a Dem who can be elected.

In hindsight it would have been nice to be a politician who was not in office during 9/11 and its aftermath. You have the luxury of sitting back and making proclamations that mean nothing because you are elected to nothing and you can snipe at the people who have to make the hard calls.

The key here is to look at a candidates lifetime record and stances. This will tell one how that person will lead given the chance. Or you can look at the last 2 years and vote for the person who made the snottiest comments about Bush and who did not have the weight of being an elected official on his or her shoulders. If making snotty comments from the sidelines is a mark of leadership then I guess Limbaugh, Hannity and Coulter must be statesmen. I think I'll rely on one's life long history and not what he or she did for the cameras in the last two years.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

14. Afghanistan was the reaction to 9-11.

The American people demanded action regarding Iraq, too. They shouted "No," as evidenced by the influx of phone calls, faxes, telegrams and letters prior to the IWR vote. And don't get me started on the marches a month before the war started.

[virtualobserver]

15. so in times of crisis, and the people demand "even bad action"

we can count on Kerry doing this again?

The power to declare War is a constitutional power given to the Congress, not the President.

[styersc]

16. War has not been declared.

The 1970's era War Powers Act gives the president access to the use of the military without a declaration of war- as long as he has sought consultation with the Congress. Which party has controlled congress since 1994???

Kerry is the best candidate. His policies are far better. His peace credentials are as strong as his willingness to go to war for national security. He is a balanced and credentialed candidate. The Democratic party is certain to reject him. I will support any Dem candidate but know Kerry is the best candidate.

I am about to support Dean. As long as we are going for personality over issues- Dean is the man. No one in the lower-middle classes need tax cuts. Raise the taxes on welfare mothers and CEOs alike. No new gun laws. Lets elect the guy.

[virtualobserver]

17. and Kerry said go to it, George, thanks for consultin' me buddy.

If you like quagmire and intrusion into your private life, then Kerry's your man.

[styersc]

18. Actually Kerry is a member of the Senate and not the House.

Consultation with the Senate had nothing to do with the War Powers Act mandate. Kerry could have done nothing to stop the war- not even restrict use of resources, this is also up to Congress (controlled by which party?).

The PAtriot Act must be rolled back and the only wat to do it is elect a Dem. The only way to elect a Dem is to run one who the American people will trust with the helm. We can run a man with no security, law enforcement and military experience who wants to raise taxes on the backs of the little guy (this is a Democratic principal?). Or we can run a man with a lifetime of liberal-Democratic activism with security/law enforcement/military credentials and a laundry list of progressive proposals for ending the war, solving problems with energy, environment, civil rights, economy (progressive taxes on upper scale, help for the little guy).

I say screw Kerry and his strong resume and life-long liberal history. Despite Deans muddled and confused stances against low income people, the environment and gun control. He speaks loudly and rolls up his sleeves. The media corporations including Rush and Hannity love Dean. Screw Kerry I'm with Dean.

[virtualobserver]

21. Kerry didn't stand up against Bush, he enabled him.

and that is the bottom line.

Dean opposed the war loudly when it looked like it was political suicide.

That is the difference.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

19. I'd like to agree with you, but

I recall how I was feeling in those months after 9/11, when the discussion quickly turned from finding OBL to invading Iraq. I, who have never been at a political rally or protest in my 33 years, began to watch the news more closely and critically. I attended protests, read all I could about the upcoming resolution. It seemed obvious to me that since Bush kept changing his reasons for invading Iraq, there was in fact nothing to his argument. It was painfully obvious that he was using the Fear Factor to control Americans.

I recall how angry, no infuriated, I felt that the Congress didn't listen to the millions of protesters world-wide who did see Bush's desire to invade Iraq clearly for what it was. I saw how other people in Congress saw through Bush's masquerade as well, and begged others in Congress to vote their collective conscience and not vote for political positioning.

When I think of those in Congress who voted for the war, those who had more information than me, but clearly decided they wanted another term more than they wanted to keep our military men and women safe, I get sick in my stomach.

Will I vote for Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards, Lieberman if they are nominated. You bet. I'll bring along some soothing tea to quell the disguist in my stomach as I do so, but I want Bush gone.

Until that time comes, if it does, I'll be putting my entire heart, energy, and donations behind a man who stood up for what was right, not what was politically expedient at a time when the masses were against him. A man who, with little foreign affairs experience, saw what was going down as something flat out wrong, and made no bones about saying so, even though it was a GREAT risk to his presidency campaign. I'll be voting my whole heart in the primaries, that you can count on.

Because I will never forget how angry, frustrated, disguisted, disenfranchised I felt when those in Congress voted for their political gains because they valued their jobs more than they valued the lives of our soldiers.

[western mass]

20. Willing to give him a pass...

I'm willing to give Kerry a pass on supporting the war resolution. People make mistakes, people can change their minds, I'll respect that.

I'm willing to give Kerry a pass on still supporting the war. I won't agree with it, but I'll respect an intelligent and sincere argument.

What I won't forgive is the fact that he's not on the stump relentlessly calling Bush & Co the liars that they are, and attacking in plain language the campaign of deception that brought us into this illegal war. I'm sorry, senator, simply saying that "the intelligence was exaggerated" doesn't cut it.

[molly]

22. Go learn - educate yourself

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=262154