What led me here...

[renie408]

I am asking Dean supporters to look at this stuff that was emailed to me and tell me where it is wrong. One of the reasons that I came to the DU was to learn more about Dean because he was becoming more and more popular, and yet I was getting emails like this. I had/have very mixed feelings about Dean. I have a gut feeling that he is not going to be able to sustain the energy he has right now. I think that some of his changes in policy are going to come back to haunt him if he wins the nomination.

I am NOT trying to start another anti-Dean thread and I don't really want anybody else jumping in and dissing him. If this man wins the nomination, the things that are bugging me are going to be bugging a lot of people. I am going to have to sell him to my friends and defend him against the Repukes. Some of this stuff is the same stuff that I have seen written here, but nobody ever answers it. I have looked some of it up, but what I find pretty much supports what was sent to me.

>>Dean's Real Stand On Issues

Guns. 1)The Brady Bill activists are staunchly against Dean. Dean claims to be for the Brady Bill. 2) He is for allowing local communities to decide what gun laws they want. As critics have pointed out: State lines don't keep guns from passing through. And this empowers powerful lobby groups like the NRA to campaign using national funds to counter local efforts to make certain types of guns illegal. How is a city of 400K people that wants certain types of guns killing people in their homes suppose to go up against the political machinery of the NRA? They can't.

Gay and Lesbian Rights. 1) He signed a bill into law granting "civil unions" instead of real marriage. The Vermont Supreme ordered the state must include gays and lesbians in the states marriage rights or create something inclusive. He signed a law into effect, that was forced. He could have vetoed the "Civil Union" bill and it would have lead to dead lock in the Vermont House of Representatives, and would have reverted to include Gays and Lesbians in enjoying "full marriage". Civil Unions are not equal to Marriage, they are not portable, and they don't allow for the same tax exemptions. That is not't equal. 2) Signing a bill into law that is forced by the Supreme Court of the State is not the same thing as going out and fighting for it. He waited for the Supreme Court to decide. Why did he wait so long? For him to take credit for this action is wrong.

3) He vetoed a bill that would have given AIDS suffers the ability to use marijuana to relieve this pain when no other alternatives are available. This bill also outlawed even experimental tests or effects of medical patients. Many gay men suffer from AIDS and are not helped by current drugs available to them, or the drugs are too expensive for them.

Abortion: Yes, I agree that he is for this. However, he kept a law into affect that allows non-doctors to preform abortions. As a doctor, he is well aware that this is not healthy or safe. Abortions are dangerous and a medical procedure should be done by a trained professional doctor. What about a women's right to a safe abortion?

War in Iraq: Again, here his record is also misunderstood 1) The problem with Iraq is not taking out Saddam. The problem is having our troops get stuck in Iraq and get shot at. Dean wants to escalate the occupation in Iraq from 100,000 troops to 200,000 troops. What will this solve? It will increase the number of soldiers being shot at. It is our occupation that is causing the attacks, not getting rid of Saddam, which by the way we haven't accomplished anyway by having troops on the ground. 2) Dean attacked Democrats for voting to support the war resolution, yet ignores the fact that Bush lied to the Senate about the reasons needing to pass it, and abused and acted in ways that were in violation of the resolution. Hind Site is always 20/20. 3) Dean backed, supported and pushed for a UN resolution that would give Saddam 60 days to hand over WMD. What would have Dean done had they passed his resolution. There is no WMD. Would he sit there and say "OK, 60 more days", or would he attack, or would he not back up the resolution? Think about it. Easy to say you didn't support a bill when you were never elected to vote on the issue.

Death Penalty: His is the most messed up policy I have heard.1) He states that the Death Penalty should only be used in extreme cases, such as killing a police officer or minors, or committing terrorist acts. Give me a break. According to his policy if a man kills a defenseless old women he gets to live. If he kills a police officer armed, trained, and willing to face danger, he gets the death penalty, where is the equality in this? You either believe the Death Penalty is wrong, and are against it. Or you believe eye for an eye. The punishment of a crime should not be based on who you are either way. That is discrimination. 2) He use to be totally against the death penalty he claims to be enlightened and now for it in certain cases. 3) Contradictory to points 1 and 2 he has stated, he wants to keep a moratorium on the Death Penalty until it is perfected. Gee, assuming that the system cannot be fixed being that the government can not be that accurate as to guarantee that the penalty is just and fair, is that not that the same thing as being against the death penalty? Sounds like a move to be against the Death penalty and for it at the same time. Might as well say, I am for it, so long as nobody gets killed and it turns out somebody innocent dies on my watch. There are solid reasons to be for and against the Death penalty, pick one side and follow through, please. 4) Dean verbally assaulted protesters trying to stop the execution of Mumia Abu-Jamal. 5) Dean said, "95 percent of people charged with crimes are guilty anyway so why should the state spend money on providing them with lawyers?". Why not just kill them all and let God sort them, right?

Education: Yeah, teachers and students for Dean. How about Flies for Spiders. Or Jews for Hitler. 1) Vermont has the 2nd lowest paid teachers in the country. I am not sure what their cost of living is in Vermont, however, I know it is not lower then 48 states. 2) Vermont is one of the most expensive places to obtain a higher education. The one public University costs $392 a credit! Hardly favorable to a 19 year old entering on a state minimum wage job.

Environment: 1) Vermont has a nuclear power plant called the "Vermont Yankee". Yeah great right! Well this plant produces nuclear waste. As you all know Vermont is a tiny state. Not many places to put the waste produced by the plant. So Dean had an awesome idea. No, it was not to shut down the plant and use hydroelectric plants, or windmills, with a combination of reducing energy consumption like most Green Party members would push for. Instead, he tried to get the waste put out of the state. Not to a depopulated area like Nevada and away from people, but to a poor Hispanic Community in Texas that would take the waste for the income because they lacked necessary things like, food and medicine. 2) Nader described Dean's record on the environment as mediocre at best, and said if anyone was somewhat close, it would be Kucinich, not Dean. 3) Stephanie Kaplan,the former executive officer of Vermont's Environmental Board has criticized Dean for selling out to big business interests. 3) Check out the 250 APA act. 4) "Dean's attempts to run for president as an environmentalist is nothing but a fraud," "He's destroyed the Agency of Natural Resources. Annette Smith, director of Vermonters for a Clean Environment.

His Record in Vermont: Dean, before living office, attempted to have his records as governor sealed for 20 years. His lawyers were only able to get them sealed for ten years. When asked why he did this by Vermont Public Radio, Dean stated, "We did not want anything embarrassing appearing in the papers at a critical time in any future endeavor." Humm, wonder what that meant? Got any ideas?

Dean Quotes:

''I became a Democrat because I identify with people who don't have all the kinds of advantages that the Republicans often have.”--Millionaire Howard Brush Dean III

“if you give me a choice between the left wing of my party, which is arrogant and uncompromising,” ---Gay and Lesbian Supporter? Howard Brush Dean III.

“We’ve gotten rid of him — I suppose that’s a good thing.”--How Howard Brush Dean III feels about the removal of Saddam.

You may support Dean. However, remember, the Republicans know what is sealed in Dean's ten year time capsule, and they will unload it on him after, and if, he gets the nomination. Then, Deanits will go down in history for re-electing Bush and creating a wide gap between the Democratic seats and Republicans seats in Senate and the House.<<

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

1. Since you have

an Edwards avatar, I'm going to assume you've chosen your candidate and aren't really trying to get the truth on Dean, and this post was for rhetorical purposes.

You've obviously left out relevant information about Dean's policies, and each of the issues you've posted have been discussed ad naseum on this board. Look 'em up if ya really want to know Dean's positions. :)

[CWebster]

2. And

link?

[renie408]

7. I don't have links

I did Google some of it and can provide you with the links that I got from Google. This came to me through another message board I am a member of. I got it about two weeks ago and that was when I decided to go wandering around and looking for more informed debate on the subject of the candidates. That is how I landed here. The message board from where I got that email is a specifically anti-Dean website whose premise is that Dean is not a Democrat. I sort of backed into membership there from a Yahoo message board that is in support of Edwards.

[ProfessorPlum]

12. Read that post again

CWebster wants Pavlov's D. to provide a link.

[ProfessorPlum]

4. That's a crappy response

I think they are honestly looking for some info on Dean - they obviously got an attack spam about him, and as Dean may very well be our nominee, (s)he is interested to see what we're getting into.

The good news is, it is good news!

[renie408]

5. Well...

I see that you claim to be for anyone but Bush, but oftentimes make negative comments about Kerry or others and doggedly defend Dean.

I guess the main thing that intrigues me is the dichotomy of Dean. There does not seem to be any middle ground. One day, I read things like the stuff that was sent to me above and another I read great things that make me think he might be 'the guy'. I do support Edwards, but that does not mean that I am slavishly devoted to his cause. Mostly I support Edwards because I find him to be the most viable candidate and I am from NC and therefore have seen him in person and happen to know a lot about him. I am still interested in other candidates and I am curious about Dean. He has very devoted followers here and other places. I have a good friend that thinks he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. But then there is the 'Dean is not a Democrat' website and people like Nicholas J. Other candidates I can get a handle on. Kerry seems to be pretty much what you see is what you get. I can see where he talks too much and stuff like that, and I understand how some people have a problem with his voting for the authorization of force and the Patriot Act. It doesn't bother me, but I get how it would bother somebody else.

Anyway, maybe I have made up my mind. I am still curious to know if this stuff is true. There are plenty of people here who are convinced that this guy, this guy that this stuff is written about, is going to be the next President of the United States. Shouldn't I be interested/concerned to learn if these things are true?

[ProfessorPlum]

3. Some of the facts stated here are true

many of the opinions about those facts are worth what opinions are usually worth, and many of the stated facts are not in evidence. I can point you to some threads and articles where many of these topics have been discussed.

But there are people here who maintain a "data dump on Dean" thread, where most of the answers you are looking for can be found.

As far as sealing his records, after Whitewater I would advise all Democrats to do the same until our press corps shows that they can handle their jobs responsibly, and separate the shit from the shinola as far as attacks on Democrats. See "The Hunting of the President" by Conason and Lyons on why this might be a fantastic idea.

On Dean and gay rights, see dsc's excellent post at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=26289

On Dean's environmental record, I found this article very balanced and illuminating: http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/state2003/082103dean_env_2003.shtml

[renie408]

6. Thanks

That is what I was looking for. I swear, I am not 'looking' for the stuff to be right. I want to know. I Googled some of it, but was coming up with sites that are probably where the guy that sent me this stuff got his info. I am not an idiot, I know this guy has an ax to grind with Dean. I just want to know how much of this is based in fact.

[ProfessorPlum]

9. there is a lot of really good information here

if I just had the link to the Dean data dump (TM)!

There are also issues with which I disagree with Dean, and some where I'm not getting a very happy feeling about. The guy's not the answer to all of my prayers - but I'm betting he may be the answer to the one about deposing the despot!

[diamondsoul]

11. UGH! Just tell me that didn't come from

a Kucinich supporter!

There are kernels of truth scattered through it, but it's all been jumbled up with opinions about Dr. Dean's motivations. I really hate that.

The Civil Unions thing is one I can hit, as a non-Dean supporter. The rumor is it was a forced concession, and I don't know how much truth there is to that. The thing is, he had a responsibility to both provide some legal equality to his homosexual constituents while maintaining respect from the constituents who aren't in favor of homosexual unions. I think a lot of the time being a leader like that is a risky tight-rope walk. You have to try to keep a very thin balance among your people, and it's not always an easy thing.

The e-mail raises a few good reasons I can't personally support Dr. Dean's position on homosexual unions. Those unions like all legal marriages are civil contracts. Every other civil contract that causes government benefits is portable-that is recognized in all states. Same-sex civil union is not. Likewise heterosexual married people are entitled to federal benefits same sex couples will not get unless civil unions are a Federally recognized law. Dr. Dean does not favor that from what I understand.(don't assault me if I'm wrong, please, just let me know!)

Those are reasons I favor Kucinich's stand on same-sex union over Dr. Dean's.

[virtualobserver]

19. From Dean's Issues page

I will work to expand equal rights to same-sex couples and ban workplace discrimination based on sexual orientation, strengthen federal protections against anti-gay violence, give federal employees the right to name same-sex partners as beneficiaries, remove bias from our immigration laws, and end the military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy.

[killbotfactory]

8. Okay...

1. Guns - He supports all the current gun laws plus closing the gunshow loophole. Beyond that he will leave it up to the states. I'd like to know what types of guns that aren't already banned are more dangerous than any others currently available, (beyond making cheap guns which malfunction). It's already against the law to buy a gun illegal in your area if you are out of state. If they are going to make the charge, then I'd like to know what is inadequate with our current federal gun laws and what they propose we do about it to fix the problem. It's impossible to argue against phantom legislation.

2. Gay Rights - Been covered by dsc.

3. Medical MJ - Dean's approach to the issue is based on science. No other drug is approved by legislation. If the FDA approves it, then it will be legal EVERYWHERE, and will be a victory for medical marijuana advocates. Other candidates leave this up to a states rights issue, which will make it legal only in places which decide to take the unprecidented step to make it so.

4. Abortion - It has been proven safe for non-doctors to perform abortions. The email author doesn't know what they are talking about and relying on people ignorance of the issue to make it sound dangerous.

5. War in Iraq - Dean wants the UN to take over and to bring stability to Iraq. This will not be easy. He's been saying from the start that it will require at least a ten year engagement, this when everyone else was silent. Even after Bush's lies and innuendo the war was not justified, and if that wasn't made clear by the time we invaded, then I have to question the judgement of anyone who had the evidence before them. The 60-day thing is predicated on evidence which was lacking Bush's drive to war. If there was evidence, and the UN did not enforce their own resolutions, then he may just have done what we did in Desert Fox, which was to bomb every site we suspected of having forbidden weapons. It did not require invading or regime change, and there was no evidence to support unilateral invasion in the first place. This is not hindsight, Dean has been saying this from day one. Democrats should have listened to him.

6. Death Penatly - He wants to reserve the death penalty for the most heinus crimes because he doesn't believe the people who commit them are able to be rehabilitated and they can find ways to escape. This includes, but is not limited to, child murders and mass murderers. Police officers may be protected if a criminal faces the death penalty for shooting a cop or not, so he is for that. He is also wants reforms for fair trials. Supporting a moritorium in a state which has shown an abuse of the system is not hypocritical.

7. Education - Vermont was in the top ten for best places to raise children for at least four years in a row during the nineties. In part because of the education system. Sounds like a good thing to me.

8. Environment - Post above covers it. Dean didn't have a say in where the waste was put, but it would have to meet federal guidelines and be approved by congress.

9. Sealed documents - they were his personal papers and correspondance. Not a big deal.

And, golly, when you cut up quotes and take them out of context, it makes people sound bad! Surprise!

[renie408]

13. More thanks

>>Dean didn't have a say in where the waste was put<<

Ah ha. That changes that one.

I still tend to disagree with the death penalty thing, but to me, it is like disagreeing with the people who signed the authorization for war. I can disagree, but still see why they hold their viewpoint.

Off the top of my head, I also think that abortions should probably be left to doctors. Not because non-doctors cannot safely perform them, but because to insure that a non-doctor was qualified, you are talking about certification or its equivalent which is just more bureaucratic crap to be set up.

I do tend to think that things like the quality of Vermont's educational system are probably more a product of the size and relative wealth of its citizenry than specific leadership from the government. But if it is ranked that highly, at least you can say that Dean didn't screw anything up. Living in a larger, poorer state that struggles continuously with its educational system, I can tell you that the finances of the citizenry does matter. In the suburbs of Charlotte, there are fantastic schools. In smaller, outlying towns that are largely rural and agricultural, the quality of the schools is much less. I know that doesn't exactly equate with Vermont, but you get the idea of what I am trying to say.

[Egnever]

42. You are missing what he did for schools in vermont

You frame school quality as if it was easy for vermont because they are a wealthy state. This is not at all what dean rellied on to adress schooling in vermont.

One of the most important things he did was to sign legislation that changed the way schools were funded. Rather than stick with the curent model in place in many states, including it sounds like your own, Is the fact that school funding rellies in large part on property taxes. Having the effect of making schools in wealthy areas well funded while poor areas get under funded. What dean did was change the model so that all property taxes were sread evenly through all the schools no matter where they were located. This had the efect of eliminating the problem you describe in your state. People were not happy with him when he did this but after it was put in effect and the results became aparent people realized it was a good decision. Just another example of where Dean is wiling to do what is right instead of what is popular.

There is s much in your original post that is totaly missleading but I dont have the time to go through it all point by point.

Education is actually one place where dean really shines.

[diamondsoul]

16. Medical Marijuana-

Not ALL the other candidates would leave it up to States.

Kucinich on Medical Marijuana-Most Americans believe that medical marijuana should be available to help relieve the suffering of seriously ill patients, and eight states have passed laws to allow it. But the Bush administration has harassed medical marijuana patients in an effort to assert federal authority. This is another aspect of the drug war that should be ended.

IOW, end it by legalizing medical marijuana across the board.

[Mairead]

30. "Dean's approach to the issue is based on science"

Dean's approach is NOT based on science. Let me quote you from

Irwin, S. (1970), "Drugs of Abuse; an Introduction to Their Actions & Potential Hazards". J. Psychedelic Drugs. (Dr Irwin was then Professor of Psychopharmacology, U Oregon Med School)

A fundamental axiom of pharmacology is that the use of any "drug" (in the widest sense of the word) can be dangerous--if it is taken by the wrong person, in inappropriate doses, at the worng time and in the wrong place. For example, a drug which was just mentioned {in the opening para, which I've not quoted} has been used (and abused) for many years, but its mechanism of action is still a mystery to scientists. Its misuse is responsible for thousands of deaths and countless injuries annually. Research has shown that the drug can induce not only chromosomal damage, but actual birth defects in animals. Added to this is the medical suspicion that a person may become physiologically dependent on the drug.

Do you suppose Dr Dean failed to prescribe that drug, citing a lack of science? No, of course he didn't. He doubtless prescribed it freely: Dr Irwin's description is of acetylsalicylic acid: trade name 'aspirin'.

I have more than once provided a reference to a solid literature review containing approximately 600 citations about the pharmacology of mj. I also provided a few dozen other citation in a thread in the earlier version of DU.

Dean's opposition comes not from science, but from his beliefs in the drug war (and, probably, political calculation plus his own experience of addiction). Science is against him and has been for decades. Even the commission Nixon funded came back with a recommedation that mj be completely legalised! Dean could, with science's backing, say 'I favor legalising it and letting people use it as herbal medicine if they believe it does them good'. But he cannot say, with science's backing, that it's a substance of unknown properties that needs further study.

He's a drug warrior, plain and simple.

(I feel quite irritated by the continued repetition of this repeatedly debunked, egregious claim that Dean's opposition is 'based on science'. I really wish Dean supporters would have the simple grace to be honest and own up.)

[Mairead]

31. "It has been proven safe for non-doctors to perform abortions"

Right. Not everyone who underwent abortion by coathanger died or was disabled.

But that's not the same as saying it's safe.

Abortion as a medical procedure ranges from semi-trivial to a full-blown operation. In general, it should be performed in a hospital-type setting where emergency life support is available. By a physician or with a physician within immediate reach.

[Mairead]

32. " they can find ways to escape"

Right. Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

A comparison between the number of convicted killers who've escaped vs the number of falsely convicted people later exonerated (too often post-mortem) should be instructive.

What we know for sure is that once the state has killed someone, there are no meaningful oopsies, no do-overs. Execution, like extinction, is forever.

[indigo32]

10. I would really prefer it, if you would tell me how Edwards is better

since we've both apparently chosen our candidates, and your the one who seems to give a crap whom I support, not I whom you support. And perhaps you could also tell me why I should take seriously a poster whom address my candidate as Howard Brush Dean III??????

but hey... once more for laughs.

1. Guns: Dean supports state and local rights on gun control... take it or leave it.

2. Civil Unions: Dean had to wear a bullit proof vest, as he went out to explain to the public his signing of that bill. I've seen him support it, and the rational for it, to this very day. By the way... what's Edwards position on Gay Marriage?

3. War on Iraq: damn I just am too sick of this subject to even go into it...it's rehashed every day. BTW why the hell is an Edwards supporter bitching about it anyway? Here's his policy right off his web sight
"Reconstruct Iraq
In Iraq, Edwards supported the war to remove Saddam Hussein from power, and he has been an outspoken proponent of a strong US commitment to help the Iraqi people rebuild their lives and develop rule of law and democracy."

Edwards believes that the United States cannot rebuild Iraq alone, and must bring other countries and institutions into this important effort."
His exit strategy is non existent

4. Death Penalty: Well now frankly I don't like the death penalty either... but it's funny he hardly seems enthused about it... and it was never implemented in Vermont, the Supreme Court has upheld it's legality in the federal system, and frankly...I don't think giving police officers special status in this is all that uncommon. I'd love to see you back up your assertions in points 4 and 5 though...really... find me so links. Ohhh and I can't find Edwards calling for the abolition of the death penalty either.

5. Education: I'd like you to back up your figures on Vermont and education. Howard Dean has a proud record of taking care of the children of Vermont on many fronts.

6. Environment: http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_record_environment

I look forward to your responding with some facts to back up your assertions.

[renie408]

15. They aren't 'my' assertions

They are from the 'Dean is not a Democrat' message board on Yahoo. I used to get emails from them until they started sending me infected stuff. This is the first email they sent. Didn't you read that part?

[indigo32]

17. I did read that part

however... I think maybe you should do a little research on your own before you go posting this stuff here, not everything you recieve via an e-mail is going to be real, as I'm sure you know. I'm sorry but I read stuff like "Howard Brush Dean III" and I really have trouble taking your request for info seriously.

[renie408]

33. Let me get this straight

you don't mind anybody saying mean things about Dean, as long as they do not insert his full name into the post anywhere? It was a cut and paste, that's the way it was sent to me. I did not delete his full name, not realizing that it was the quite the trigger for you that it turns out to be.

[indigo32]

44. LOL

you know something... I honestly didn't know that was his real name until you mentioned it. It's funny, the only time I've ever heard it used were in negative pieces like the ones you posted. We tend to use alot of nick-names on the net. And no it wasn't just about the name...just an example I was using.

[kang]

20. No need to be so combative

I think if we're all going to get behind one Democratic candidate eventually, it would help to better understand their positions and perhaps what policies or parts of their record we don't like or agree with. No need to get so testy. And I don't know about the "Brush" part, but it was funny to learn that Dean's a "III." Smart of him to drop that part of his name (avoid playground fights when young and the label of rich elite when older and running for President). I honestly can't figure out why people do that to their children . . . somebody stop George Foreman!

[indigo32]

25. Hi Kang

I agree about the III, LOL. I realize I probably shouldn't come across so testilly but you'd be amazed how often posts like this come up... and the poster is not being honest in their effort to find out information at all. It truly happens almost every day. To the point where I've lost my patience. I will say that renie408, aside from the tone of the initial post... seems sincere. But between the whole "Howard Brush Dean III" thing (no that is not meant to be respectful) and the fact that S/He is supporting a candidate that has alot of the same positions as Dean on the issues being criticized... made me wonder.

[renie408]

34. That's why

I am wondering, too. I read Dean's website and his supporters and he sounds great. But then you listen to his detractors and he sounds pretty bad. There does not seem to be any middle ground. Even people who do not choose Kucinich as their top choice say he is a good guy with great ideas. Edwards also seems to have less completely opposite things said about him. I read in one place how Dean blocks out time for his kids and in another where he made some comment about 'imported' hoods. I cannot tell which guy is the real thing.


(Here is the link for the 'imported' hoods comment. I know somebody is going to ask for it. http://venus.soci.niu.edu/~archives/ABOLISH/summer96/0173.html )

[indigo32]

39. I wish I knew

what is so polarizing about him... aside from the fact that he is undeniably doing well. Other than that I'm as confused as you.... I though the idea was to get * out. When it comes down to it most people in VT were happy with Dean I think... they did vote him in 5 times.

Take Care
Sue

[renie408]

35. That's why

I am wondering, too. I read Dean's website and his supporters and he sounds great. But then you listen to his detractors and he sounds pretty bad. There does not seem to be any middle ground. Even people who do not choose Kucinich as their top choice say he is a good guy with great ideas. Edwards also seems to have less completely opposite things said about him. I read in one place how Dean blocks out time for his kids and in another where he made some comment about 'imported' hoods. I cannot tell which guy is the real thing.


(Here is the link for the 'imported' hoods comment. I know somebody is going to ask for it. http://venus.soci.niu.edu/~archives/ABOLISH/summer96/0173.html )

[genius]

41. Edwards is a trial attorney who cares about the little man in society

His regard for those less fortunate came out again and again in the AFL-CIO debate. He understands the concept of innocent until proven guilty. He also seems like a very nice person. I'm not backing him. But Edwards is a thousand steps above Dean.

[kang]

14. Some possible answers on your Dean question

I'm not a Dean backer just yet (get his e-mails though!), but I think it's worth trying to work through some of your questions without people second-guessing your intentions.

To be honest, I think Dean takes a position and often modifies it or changes it completely when new information comes in. This hypocrisy that so many people charge politicians with is really the natural evolution of thought that normal citizens are allowed to go through without public scrutiny. My answer in general to you about him is that every candidate will have weaknesses or apparent inconsistencies in their past positions. I don't think Dean is more vulnerable on this front than other candidates.

On guns, I have heard Dean speak about this issue on TV more than a few times now. Although letting states decide what works best for them is his position, it won't really hurt him in the general election (gun control isn't a make or break issue). In fact, the NRA probably wouldn't mind him as President since he's also against the Patriot Act, which many liberterian leaning conservatives like Grover Norquist are also against. Now I understand that policy-wise his position might have kinks (I'm originally from Chicago and although you can't possess or buy a gun there, there's plenty of gun shops in the neigboring suburbs), but on the political front Bush and the GOP can't and won't really attack him on this.

On the gay rights issue, I think any step towards equal rights is a step in the right direction and Dean did get behind the effort (an executive waiting for the court's approval of a position could've been the politically smart thing to do if you're trying to argue that it's a constitutional right). He has said that he's uncertain about recognizing gay marriages (rather than civil unions) because there might be church/state issues that he need to be researched more. That's also a defensible position if one believes that the term marriage has religious implications. To me, it's semantics as long as the end goal is truly equal rights. If the Bush Administration comes out on this, they will simply bring the spotlight on Bush's position on gay and lesbian issues. So Dean should be given credit since he had to fight hard for reelection for doing what he did.

As for his record in Vermont, of course he'll get attacked for one thing or another. In the end, it'll matter more what Dean is proposing and what he is for. What is his grand vision for America? Take back America and do what? That's where Dean needs to go now in my opinion. He's mastered pointing out what's wrong, but he needs to get out there and paint a big picture that ties domestic and foreign policy together in a way that's more positive than "Bush is wrong."

I think the one major weakness is his position on Iraq and to a larger extent his capability as a commander-in-chief. Don't get me wrong here, while I have some reservations about him in this department (as I do with all candidates since it's one of the toughest parts of the job), I'm specifically talking about the public perception that a small state governor wouldn't be the best choice to pick up the "War on Terror" (hate that name), nation-build in Afghanistan and Iraq, and deal with nuclear wannabes N. Korea and Iran.

Not that getting shot at or having killed someone in combat makes a candidate a more qualified commmander-in-chief per se, but people believe that one who has "been out there" can better gauge what is "worth it" and what needs to get done to protect Americans. In other words, not so uncomfortable with violence to the degree that it will avoided even when it is the appropriate response.

To be fair, I think Edwards has this same problem since he's a relatively new Senator. Although he is quite skilled as a speaker. Kerry will try pushing Dean more on foreign policy and commander-in-chief type issues now that he's behind in NH. This could be bad if Dean's medical exemption is brought up again in the primaries and he eventually wins the nomination (while Pres. Bush somehow got a pass on this topic in 2000).

[Nicholas_J]

18. YUP

Dean's major support in Vermont consisted of moderate Republicans who ALSO supported Bush for President and now support Bush over Dean.

Dean had lost of private meeting with these people and sent prvate memos he wants kept private on his end, but Vermnt Republicans have let Dean know that rthe can reconstrct a dossier on Dean from the portions of thr private convassations and memos sent from Dean to them.

THis is really whe Rove wants Dean as Dean has more hidden that can be exposed and make him OOK very bad even if the intent was not. If Dean keeps trying to hide the records in light of what the communications and memos on the other end contain, Dean will simply appear to be trying to hide something which will play out VERY badly from Dems if Dean is the nominee.

[virtualobserver]

21. and how would you know what "vermont republicans" have let Dean know....

Huh, Nick

[kang]

22. Bush charging Dean of "secrecy?" That's a good one.

That would be ridiculous if the press allows the Bush campaign to do that considering the Bush Administration's probably the most secretive White House since Nixon (maybe more so even).

[ProfessorPlum]

23. Nick

#1 - you were probably the author of email posted initially. If it wasn't you, it was someone mimicking your "style".

#2 - Dean will shove sealed records right up W's hole. Can you imagine getting the chance to go off on Bush about sealed records?! His daddy's records are sealed. Dubya's records as TX gov. are sealed. Dubya even sealed Reagan's records!! If I didn't know better, I'd say that sealing his records were a clever gambit by Dean to goad Karl Rove into bringing it up as a talking point, to which Dean can point out that there has never been a more secretive, record-sealing dynasty in this country than the Bushies. Sealed records indeed.

[virtualobserver]

24. may be he does have an "i'll unseal mine, if you'll unseal yours"

strategy.

That had not occurred to me.

[ProfessorPlum]

26. Nor I

I doubt it, though. I think he was just paying attention to what the Republicans did to Clinton in the 90s. No one in their right mind would let Rove just run and play in their notes after Whitewater and all of those lies.

[virtualobserver]

27. True, and they can spin anything......

If you can spin Gore's "look for the union label" joke into "Gore is a liar", you don't need much to work with.

[Nicholas_J]

29. Wont work

Sorry, If Dean has engaged in embarassing things and they are revealed by Vermont Republicans through their own internal memoranda FROM Dean, Bushs records will not even have to be mentioned.

Theey can pull Dean aprt this way without even mentioning Deans sealed records.Since Dean is the ONLY candidate who has had coalitions with Republicans and since Dean is the only cnadidate where this info is hidden, Dean has the most that can be exposed, which he finds embarassing.

Dean will not be able to rip Bush apart at all, and Bush's closed records will not ever have to be brougt up. Plus Bush IS president, so more is known of his performance as President, and his record as Governor a moot point by this time. Deans dealings will not be.

[ProfessorPlum]

38. so what exactly is the harm in sealing his records then?

If it doesn't matter, why does it mean anything to you?

And we certainly know all we need to know about Bush's presidency, don't we? Like the contents of his August 6, 2001 security briefing, the notes from Cheney's energy task force,

I'm sorry, "Dean is the ONLY candidate who has had coalitions with Republicans"? What do you consider a coalition? I'd say that voting with Rep's is a coalition, and we have a few candidates who have also done that - not that there is anything inherently wrong with that, in the case of good legislation.

If something comes out then it comes out. Why give the Republicans every opportunity to spin things, though, when it's not to our benefit?

I know, that since you think Dean is devil, that nothing I say will mean anything to you. Whatever.

[acerbic]

28. This part looks the MOST disingenuous:

I am NOT trying to start another anti-Dean thread and I don't really want anybody else jumping in and dissing him.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[renie408]

36. You are giving me

a lot more credit than I deserve. I just wanted to hear somebody counter these accusations. I have been reading here for awhile and mostly what I see are people who throw their hands up in the air as soon as anything gets said about Dean. I understand that some of you have been around together for a long time and have worked out your dynamic and know who is full of shit and who isn't. But when I see somebody make accusations about Dean and everybody just says, "You are a liar." without offering anything to back up THEIR statement, it makes me think there is no defense.

What I wanted to avoid was another slavering dogfight between supporters. Where else am I supposed to get the answers to this stuff? A lot of you Dean people say 'Look it up'. Ok, fine. But you guys need to check out what Google pulls up when you search some of this stuff. A lot of it DOES NOT look good for Dean. It seems to me that if someone was offering you a chance to defend a man you believed in, you would take it instead of sticking your nose in the air and attacking the person asking.

[kang]

37. I hope you get some of your answers (let me know?)

because I'm still not committed to one candidate. Of course, I'll vote whichever Democrat gets the nomination, but it would be nice if they're the one I believe has the best chance and is most in line with my beliefs.

Since I've been on this site for only a few weeks, I must agree that alot of "shutting down" people happens whenever somebody asks a question about Dean or Kerry for that matter. Then the inevitable Kerry-Dean back and forth. Even if you thought somebody had ulterior motives, why wouldn't you make your case for your candidate and prove to observing third parties that they're arguments are wrong on the merits. Yeah, it's hard and you have to do it over and over again, but isn't that campaigning for your guy and how you get people to respect them?

Indigo32: no hard feelings and I'm always happy to make people laugh (as long as it's intentional and not laughing at me!).

[genius]

40. Excellent post. Now you know why I have some moral objections

to Dean. Whether Dean or Bush wins, innocent victims of the justice system are in trouble and any one of us could be one of those innocent victims of the justice system. Only the most uneducated people in our society think that the majority of criminal defendants are guilty. Imagine the kind of justices this guy would appoint: men who would eliminate technicalities, like the right to an attorney (goodbye Powell and Gideon), like current rules against use of confessions obtained with rubber hoses or through trickery (see Miranda v. Arizona for a discussion of police abuses) like misleading evidence created from generalized warrantless fishing expeditions of people's homes (see Mapp v. Ohio) and so forth.

108 people have been exonerated from death row. In other words they were found innocent before they were executed. However, with Dean's justices in charge, they would all have been killed and that would have been okay with Dean. Remember Dean's statement that executions of the innocent are an acceptable risk.

I notice you are backing Edwards. Although I am not backing Edwards, this is one area where I trust him. I think that Edwards, Kucinich and Kerry will appoint the best justices who will give innocent people a fighting chance against an oppressive system.

About the nuclear waste issue, Dean backed Yucca Mountain (a planned nuclear dump site which will likely contaminate the Colorado River water that flows through California water taps). His lack of caring for the millions of Califnria children who could die as a result of his callousness is something I would more likely expect of a Bush clone.

Bush and Dean are too much alike on too many important issues. Dean's appointments may actually be worse than anything we're seeing from Bush. This is one of the reasons why, as a lifelong Democrat, I don't know if I could ever support Dean. The other eight candidates and even Clark would be easy to support by comparision.

[ProfessorPlum]

43. talk about spinning a baroque fantasy out of a small fact

Dean once expressed his regret that even a system that uses life in prison as a punishment cannot always protect innocent people when violent, recivist criminals escape punishment through technicalities.

You spin this to mean he would be perfectly happy to have innocent people killed, and that he would support coerced confessions with rubber hose beatings.

That's almost like saying since Kerry thinks Saddam is a bad man, he supports our troops blowing away innocent Iraqis and feeding on their dead flesh.

Let's try some honest discussion, how about it?

[Egnever]

45. I apreciate your effort to try to find the truth

However there will always be attack articles on any candidate. I think you would be better served realizing this and looking for the info yourself than buying into it and then asking for people to refute it.

I can tell you that there was almost nothing correct in your post about dean but it will do no good. I could also send you an email with cut and pasted positions on all of these issues directly from deans web site but Somehow i dont think you would give it as much creedence as you do an email from someone with an obvious agenda against Dean.

this quote you make right here pretty much says it all.

"if you give me a choice between the left wing of my party, which is arrogant and uncompromising"

Clearly this is only a very partial quote as it only gives on part of what he was obviously a choice! If you are going to relly your missgivings on any candidate on partial quotes then there will not be enough time in the world to point out to you why they are nothing but spin.

I understand your point of being new to this board and not understanding why people are dissmissed out of hand by dean suporters. The biggfest reason for this is the fact that many of these people have been refuted time and again on these things yet continue to post them over and over and over. If i posted Edwards likes to beat children and you refuted it and i kept making the post anyway how many times would it take before you just started writing me off as a nutcase? Would you keep refuting me till the end of time or would you just write me off?

I apreciate your concern about the email you recieved. I invite you to visit www.deanforamerica.com One of the best things about this campaign is the steps it takes to get the info out there for you to make your own decision.

Or better yet if you want to have talking points forwarded to you by people with an agenda refuted a better choice for you might be
http://www.deandefense.org/

These guys gop after em as they recieve them and have an ongoing record of many of these issues you ask about. I hope these links help you find the answers you are seeking.

For my part i have Read all of this stuff many times over I have taken the time to look into all of them mostly because I find it dificult to believe that dean is the guy I think he is something I think that has been missing in politics for way too long. Time after time when i look into them not only do i come away with my fears laid to rest but I usuly find yet another reason to support him.