http://www.kucinichdeancompare.com/

[veganwitch]

http://www.kucinichdeancompare.com/

pretty much speaks for itself.

hope this isnt a dupe.

[newsguyatl]

1. does it

compare their poll numbers?

or their support base?

just wonderin' :shrug:

[JohnKleeb]

2. come on you guys were once behind the polls

I tell you this, DK win or lose will be remembered I think, he just recently got an award for his lifetime committment to peace :). Gandhi and MLK would be so proud.

[JI7]

4. bush would lead polls against kucinich

doesn't make bush anything better than kucinich when it comes to what is important and better for the nation.

(didn't gandhi's grandson or some other relative endorse kucinich ? i didn't even know gandhi had a grandson until recently. )

[JohnKleeb]

5. Yes it was his granddson

One of our earliest endorsers. Thank you though, you are right on. I am so sick of some Dean supporters forgetting where they came from :( it makes one very aggrevated, but I keep heart knowing that Dennis K is one of the most inspirational politicans of my brief lifetime but its true :) I am so happy to have this man running.

[helleborient]

31. John, I appreciate most of your posts...

And admire your commitment to Kucinich but every time I read "I am so sick of some Dean supporters forgetting where they come from" and then a smiley attached...what goes off in my head is

"He thinks we're all stupid sheep"...time to re-commit and redouble my efforts to support Dean.

[Egnever]

53. forgetting where they came from

Sry John but we know where we came from. Its one of the msot gratifying things about having been behind this candidate since the webpage was barely even started. His ability to resonate with a huge portion of america based not on money till now but message is Verry satisfying to those of us that have been waiting for a candidate like him for sooooooooo long!

[JohnKleeb]

54. Sorry I said that

but you gotta understand where I come from on this, I have seen people act like Kucinich is a joke, they regarded Dean the same way at one time. Look you damn well know it but there are some who treat the Kucinich campaign like a joke and being a stauch Kucinich supporter that bothers me to no end.

[AnAmerican]

6. Yes Gandhi's grandson endorsed......

And Dennis won the 2003 Gandhi Peace award. His acceptance speech is here; http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=31583

[JohnKleeb]

7. Thats what it was called :)

You cant go wrong with that can you :).

[goodhue]

63. Dean Muffles, Kucinich Amplifies Anti-War Voice

http://www.progressive.org/webex03/wx0910b03.html

Web Exclusives
Editor Matthew Rothschild comments on the news of the day.

September 10, 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dean Muffles, Kucinich Amplifies Anti-War Voice

In Tuesday night's debate, Howard Dean muffled his anti-war voice. The former Vermont governor, who has risen a wave of goodwill for his opposition to the Iraq War, did not distinguish himself as the peace candidate in the debate sponsored by the Congressional Black Caucus and Fox News.

While he did say the war "was a mistake," he added, "We cannot lose the peace in Iraq." He said there would be chaos, and Al Qaeda and Islamic fundamentalists allied with Iran might take hold.
That's a different answer than he gave in last Thursday's debate, when he said, "We need more troops--more foreign troops. Ours need to come home."

On Tuesday night, only Dennis Kucinich was that outspoken. "Get the U.N. in, and the U.S. out," said Kucinich, also the only candidate to state unequivocally that he would vote against Bush's $87 billion request.

And while everyone else was saying we need to support the troops by approving more money (or by sending in more troops, as Lieberman urged), Kucinich said: "We'll be there forever unless we challenge" the legitimacy of the war and the occupation.

[veganwitch]

3. well those poll numbers are based on lies

i would say a good number of dean supporters believe he is progressive.

hes got good numbers because he sells himself as something he is not.

[loyalsister]

65. Depends on how you define "progressive"

For some people- most people, I believe it refers to a matching of the progressive ideas that are dearest to their heart. Thus, "most progressive" is a subjective definition.
Case in point:
In my district many of us went Green for the last congressional election. I think most people here would say that we all voted very progressively. The Dem candidate was anti-choice, pro-gun. I think most people here would call him a conservative Dem. He and his campaign manager are Kucinich supporters (NAFTA). In fact, she joined his campaign. The Green candidate is a Dean supporter because, as he told me directly- Dean shares the proper percentage of his positions, and more importantly, can win because of wide appeal. This guy had been voting Nader since '88.

[Tinoire]

17. It sure does - 9/2/03 Kucinich 51% Dean 33.5% (Both Poll & Base)

Who Will You Vote For President?


George W. Bush (82 responses)- 2.3%

Carol Moseley Braun (115 responses)- 3.3%

Howard Dean (1169 responses)- 33.5%

John Edwards (9 responses)- 0.3%

Dick Gephardt (222 responses)- 6.4%

Bob Graham (9 responses)- 0.3%

John Kerry (36 responses)- 1.0%

Dennis Kucinich (1779 responses)- 51.0%

Joe Lieberman (19 responses)- 0.5%

Al Sharpton (50 responses)- 1.4%

3490 total responses

Taken - Sept 2, 2003

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-prez2004story,0,5467485.htmlstory?coll=ny-nationworld-nation-utility&vote8594962=1

[JohnKleeb]

18. You sure feel great tonight

:) as do I

[killbotfactory]

8. Which candidate is this website targetting?

It's not clear enough.

Seriously, why would they put a quote about Rove laughing at the thought of Dean being nominated? I hope they realize he was laughing because their going to paint Dean is too liberal. I don't see how that bodes well for Kucinich.

And then they quote Nicholas Johnson as saying "A Dean supporter is a Democrat who hasn't yet heard Dennis speak." When in actuality, Nick was quoting Kucinich supporters.

Okay, two misleading articles and I've only check two quotes.

It also links to a highly misleading comparison between the two, done by none other than Nicholas Johnson, which claims Dean had no comment on campaign finance reform (not true), that the poor who can't afford abortions should go without (huh? he helped a 12 year old get one after she was sexually assaulted. Did the 12 year old pay for it?) Among other things.

Whee, this is fun. Thanks for the link.

[veganwitch]

9. ok

ill take the bait, maybe you are being sarcastic.

but it does say - A National Resource for Kucinich Supporters -
Use it. Spread it. Talk about it. so i would say its probably biased towards dennis.

[diamondsoul]

10. I don't care for the site.

Plain and simple it seems to be content to include obvious smear jobs, and that to me is offensive on Dennis' behalf. He has integirty and his supporters should show the same.

[JohnKleeb]

11. diamond like forkboy you are so fair

Again I wish I could do that,

[diamondsoul]

21. We have to try, John.

There are enough comparisons to make people look if they are going to without resorting to pure venom. DannyRed was right about the site, absolutely, completely right. It had some facts in it but most of them were buried under malicious branding against Dean. That's pointless and serves nobody, least of all Dennis Kucinich.

There are a few people around who are just going to be hateful no matter what, but our candidate isn't one of them. If we're trying to get people to see him the same way we do, then we have to imagine what he would do, and that's not it. Even when he challenges Dr. Dean he isn't nasty about it. And I'm staking money there are moments when he'd like to be. Even so he doesn't give in to that because it goes against the foundation of his platform.

[JohnKleeb]

23. Dan was kinda right but I dont believe in just flocking to a campaign

just because they got the green its not right.
I wanna try and I feel like lashing out at them when they slander DK.

[Demobrat]

12. A legitimate attempt to win over Dean supporters

that degenerates into ugliness. Oh well, nice try.

[JohnKleeb]

13. it wasnt fair I agree

but I do think a lot Dean supporters should look in to Kucinich.

[Demobrat]

15. Well, yes. And when they do, insulting them and their choice

is probably not the way to go about winning friends and influencing people, at least not usually.

[JohnKleeb]

16. youre right about that and a lot Kucinich supporters dont like this at all

Look at what diamondsoul and an american have said. I really do urge Dean supporters to take a second look at Kucinich though, I urge everyone do to that as a matter of fact. I dont think its fair either to be honest but I was flat out outraged when I saw "does Kucinich annoy you" this past August. I am sorry to rant on that but that was worse. Again please people give him another look. Ok I'll shut up ;).

[AnAmerican]

14. Just so everyone is aware....

This disclaimer appears at the bottom of the page


"This page has not been paid for nor authorized by the Kucinich for President Campaign and was completed without their knowledge."

[DannyRed]

19. Why not give

Dean supporters the benefit of the doubt when it comes to our political consciousness and awareness of the pros, cons, questions and realities of our chosen favorite when compared to another?

Every Dean supporter I know and meetup with knows that Dean is not their all-being, all-seeing, perfect political match.

From the far left (me) to the right-leaning hawkish veteran both of us agree - Dean is not what we would wish for in a candidate - too liberal for him, too conservative for me.

Kucinich has many, many superb points in his favor. I dislike his past stances on Abortion, and many of his past votes are at odds with the Saint-like halo given him by his boosters...however, he is, like all the others, a politician, and must play the washington game.

Why not realize that Dean supporters, like Kerry, Kucinich, Lieberman, Braun, Graham, Gephardt...and so forth supporters ARE NOT STUPID BLIND OR FANATICAL CULTISTS (unlike many Bush supporters....)

Why the insistence on "proving" that our chosen candidate is "worse" than yours?

In some cases he is, in some cases he isn't.

Dean, however, is running a smarter, better, more effective campaign than any of the others right now.

Given the relative similarity on most issues shared by ALL the candidates, it falls to many of us to choose the one we think will win.

We have, to date, chosen Dean.

Dean is not the devil. He is not a Republican in Democrat's clothing. He is not a cult leader.

He is a politician...with all that this entails.

Just like all the others.

So why go to the effort of putting out a smear-infested, easily discounted, disproven, and overtly hostile piece of garbage like the above?

There are some good facts there, and some worthwhile comparisons to be made between Dean and Kucinich...but the above either fails to do that, or does it in such a way so as to swamp the good data with trashy gossip, outright lies, and malicious distortions.

Any Dean supporter who may be questioning his or her committment to Dean reading the above would more likely get angry at the rehashed, recycled, and long-since dispensed with lies...and go back to supporting Dean more strongly...and if they were to abandon Dean, they would be LESS likely to choose Kucinich, simply as a result of such baseless slanders.

Get your shit together.

We are in a house burning down and y'all give the impression of arguing about whether to save the flatware or the microwave.

[diamondsoul]

20. WOW! Um....

Well said, except can you please avoid being too broad with that brush too? Thanks. ;-)

[DannyRed]

24. I try, lord knows I try

Let me put it more succinctly.

I like Kucinich.

I like Dean.

I like Kerry.

I also have severe and deep ideological and political differences with each one.

I don't like Gephardt, Lieberman or Edwards.

I also have some areas where I share some deeply held beliefs and political stances with each one.

I don't know enough about Graham, Sharpton, Braun to decide...but I would imagine one or the other of the above fits all three

And Clark too.

given these facts (where it comes to my own and presumably many others' political choice)

the only difference that is really important right now is the campaign's style, efficiency, effectiveness, and target.

Dean is running a great campaign...his target has been mostly Bush (not always, but I think he's gotten a lot better on that)..and when he attacks Bush he does it really well...

Candidates that are spending their time bumbling around, wasting time, attacking other candidates, or fawning all over Bush in an attempt to appear "strong" and "win the middle"

are LOSING GROUND and LOSING VOTES.

So, get off the "attack Dean shtick"...tell your candidate or his/her campaign to get off the attack Dean shtick.

Get ON an attack BUSH shtcik.

Do it better, harder, faster, more often and more convincingly than Dean is doing right now....

And your campaign will capture current Dean supporters...and supporters from all the other camps too.

Capich?

[diamondsoul]

32. Danny, my candidate is not "attacking" Dean-

I realize that may be the way Dean supporters view what he does, but it's not what he's doing.

Consider the standings right now. Dean is leading all the Democrats, right? Kucinich isn't getting heard, right? Congressman Kucinich has just as mucha duty to make himself heard as Dr. Dean does to his supporters. One of the sure-fire ways for him to do that at this stage in the process is to loudly challenge his opponents for the nomination.

That's what he's trying to do. Something else I'd like to submit for your consideration about this perception- Congressman Kucinich has repeatedly maintained he'd like to face all of his opponents in an open debate. To date nobody wants to give him that chance.

I've watched these "attacks", Danny, and honestly if they were being leveled from Dean towards Kucinich, I would have the same perception. He HAS to challenge the front-runner right now, there's no other option if he wants to set himself apart.

I'm not sure how old you are, and I'm not bringing it up as an insult, but I recall the old days when the Presidential debates were n every channel, open, unfettered and virtually uninterrupted. I miss those days, and the things that Congressman Kucinichis doing are what we saw from ALL the candidates. It's the whole point of the Primary race- challenge your opponents for the nomination, make sure your differences are OUT THERE, make the people see why you're the guy they need to choose. That's ALL Congressman Kucinich is doing.

[JohnKleeb]

22. Ummm Dan we dont think hes a saint

We think hes a great guy and nails down the issues well. Ive seen Dean supporters slander Kucinich how you think that makes us feel. We respect and admire our candiate and his views.

[DannyRed]

25. John.

Many many of your posts are, frankly, quite hard to stomach...you certainly DO portray your candidate as a saintly advocate for all that is holy and right, avoid talking about the serious flaws your candidate has shown in the past and in the present...and give off an aura of righteousness that I find unappealing in ANY candidate's supporter, whether it's a Dean, Kerry, Kucinich, Lieberman, or what have you supporter.

Frankly, from MY perspective as an alienated and disgusted former Democrat turned hard left and just now back into the fold, reading the DU politics boards and the preponderance of puerile, worshipful, panacea-wishing, smearing, backbiting, lying, sniping, snarling, and general inanity that goes on here...

I remember exactly why I got so disgusted with the Democrats.

While the GOP has been successfully gutting the entire political, electoral, economic, and social infrastructure of the nation (with SIGNIFICANT help from Democrats, may I add), the Democratic faithful here and in many other places have been playing parlor games and having schoolyard snits, pretending that this is some kind of high-school contest, and letting egos and the desire to "be on the winning team" over-ride political reality, necessity, and urgency...

Whooosh...sorry to vent on you...rant over...feel better...must. get. coffee....

[JohnKleeb]

26. I dont consider him to be one

Those posts are explaining why I support him. Look I understand what you mean. It happens on all sides. I dont think him to be a saint but do I think he has some great ideas, you betcha. If you havent noticed i have defended other candiates and had nice things to say about the others.

[Mairead]

27. I believe you're being grossly unfair to John

In my opinion, there is nobody posting here who tries harder than John does to see people in the best possible light. John puts out nothing but positive energy. That's very valuable. To us ALL.

You might believe that John has too much admiration for Dennis, but I venture to say that you cannot make one negative charge stick about Dennis's current stances and behavior. Dennis has crap in his past that I don't like even slightly, and I've come to feel sure that some of the principles underlying his current policies aren't the same principles being advertised...but nevertheless he is The Best{1} candidate for working people interested in peace, prosperity, and social justice. That is the message John is putting forward, too, and for you to criticise him for it on the grounds of style does you no credit at all.



1. I ignore Al Sharpton, but I do so only because of the national racism that limits the candidacy of any Black man.

[DannyRed]

28. You're right

John, I apologize.

[JohnKleeb]

41. forgiven its ok, just let me respect and admire my candiate

and support him. I accept your apology.

[helleborient]

30. This type of site is what I see as the negative charge...

Do you really want everyone to let you have it both ways...Dennis is a great guy with the best ideas for where the country should go and that IS the focus of his campaign? Or Dennis and his supporters are pit bulls who are scouring the land for anti-Dean material?

[Mairead]

33. I don't think I'm following

In what way is my post related to this thread? I was responding to Danny's disparagement of John, nothing more, and since Danny very handsomely owned up, that closed the matter for me.

Or are you saying that my claim that Dennis is unimpeachable on his current policies somehow reflects on or is reflected on by that site? (I should perhaps point out that I'm not in any way responsible for that site or its contents, just in case you're confused about that.)

So what exactly is the point you wish to make here?

[helleborient]

37. I was disagreeing...

That John, and other Kucinich supporters, put out nothing but positive energy...

I admire his staunch support for Dennis Kucinich but I do feel that more than once he has all but said Dean supporters are stupid sheep for supporting Dean...as he mentioned above in his comments about being annoyed by all of us that are so wrongheaded...and would support Kucinich if only we knew the real story, or something like that.

I also was frustrated that it seems fine to both laud DK's supporters for being so good and kind to everyone...while at the same time supporting the pit bull tactics evident in the web site that started this thread.

John has at length expressed sad frustration at attacks on Kucinich...well, here is perfect example of the attacks being slung the other way.

My sympathy ends when I see demonstrable support for a web site like this.

[Mairead]

45. Well, to begin with

I only made the claim about John, not about anyone else. Any generalising you saw came from within you, not from me.

And with that in mind, I'd really like to see a cite for "more than once he has all but said Dean supporters are stupid sheep for supporting Dean". Particularly since you claim that in this thread he said he was 'annoyed' by 'wrongheaded' Dean supporters. In fact the only use of the word 'annoy' apart from your own was when he mentioned an anti-Kucinich thread that used that word in the title. And you are the only one here who has used the word 'wrongheaded'. So: cite, please?

As to that site: I don't like its design very much, but it looks like a lot of quotes. What don't you like about quotes?

[JohnKleeb]

46. Yep I was talking about an anti Kucinich thread

Thank you so much. I went off to school feeling a bit iffy though Danny thanks for your apology I appreciate it. I havent called them stupid sheep ever, I dont know what to say but maybe this is what made helleb think I was bashing, Ive said in the past I am not his biggest fan Dean that is, Ive never insulted his campaign once. In fact I think I would be correct if I said I was on good terms with Dean supporters. I wish you guys wouldnt play the DLC game with DK but I respect your decision. I will support Dean if he gets the nod because I will not be able to vote in 2004 but will I support him yeah.

[helleborient]

49. Excuse me...I should have been specific...

Because I was talking about John...and his claims as I quoted below that Dean supporters are not giving Dennis Kucinich a fair shake or are uninformed or a combination...

Dennis Kucinich lost my support. I was leaning his way and read materials from both campaigns side by side....and I do not support him.

Can you and John respect that I have made an informed decision??

There are more out here like me....+ there are some responding to a bandwagon effect...I hope the Democrats have a serious bandwagon come November 2004.

Get out there and work for Dennis! Hold meetups! Print signs off of your printer at home...mine at home has printed name tags, to do lists on postcards, and signs for our meetup, and I put my own money into purchasing buttons and bumper stickers so our local people will have them.

My suggestion is to not spend your time complaining that work and creativity has gotten Dean where he is...go head to head in doing your work for your candidate!!

[JohnKleeb]

51. I respect your decision

I try not to complain much and if I do I apologize. Its not that I think you all are uninformed, I think some people inadvertently play the DLC game on DK, you know unelectable etc.

[Mairead]

56. "Can you and John respect that I have made an informed decision??"

Not necessarily. I only respect decisions that improve the world; I tend to be quite critical of the other sort.

However --and I say this as carefully and honestly as I possibly can-- I suspect that you and I probably have very different ideas about what 'informed' should mean in this context.

The most straightforward thing I've heard from Dean supporters so far has been 'we know all about his politics and we don't care!' Such a blythe admission of complicity does call forth a certain kind of grudging admiration.

But other than that admission, what we seem to get from Dean supporters is mostly dogma. Credo in unum Deum, Patrem Omnipotentem....

About the nth time I read someone mindlessly repeat that Dean's anti-marijuana stance was 'based on science', one of my tolerance circuits overloaded. We can say that the evidence is mixed about whether (e.g.) single-payer healthcare is possible, and that Dean supporters repeating his categorical dogma on the subjust is mere overenthusiasm, but for someone to repeat the marijuana dogma requires the repeater to have no functioning brain or no respect for the truth.

So I'll believe 'informed' when someone can walk through Dean's positions and defend them with something other than dogmatic soundbites.

[helleborient]

59. Respectfully...this is not how you win elections

I'm off to work on the Meetup...

[Mairead]

62. If all you want to do is be on the winning side...vote for Smirk!

[JohnKleeb]

42. Ive never bashed Dean Ive been critical keyword critical

of him and I wish more people would like DK is that bashing to you. Granted theres nasty stuff from both of our camps but I think we truly try our best.

[helleborient]

43. I was more frustrated with the attitude toward Dean supporters...

In particular this...

"I am so sick of some Dean supporters forgetting where they came from" followed by a smiley

[JohnKleeb]

44. well

I have said that and it does bother me frankly but unapolgeticliberal one of your fellow Dean supporters says that as well. Look no offense but you guys got to where you got by grassroots so why do you act like our campaign is nothing when at one time yours was considered just that. I am sorry that happens but god willing I think you guys should remember how you guys came about, it wasnt poof and Dean is the current frontrunner. I really try my best not to get mad honest to god, and believe theres plenty of stuff that could make me mad more so sad. I get frustrated and I dont think I bashed your candiate once, and if I did I am sorry. The Kucinich campaign has every right to exist as yours.

[helleborient]

47. I've said this before...

But I don't act like your campaign is nothing and others here in central Illinois don't either...the Dennis Kucinich meetup group here is second in size only to the Dean meetup...we dwarf all of the rest. And some of us in each campaign know each other.

And thank you for your response. I'm not anti-DK...I do disagree with the signs I see here from Kucinich supporters that accuse us of not really knowing both candidates...I think you would find a number of us who do.

I cast my lot with Dean at the time of the Moveon.org primary after reading closely both Kucinich and Dean responses. Dennis lost my support. I see myself as more pragmatic than he...that said, I have no problem with his campaign at all. The diversity of voices is fantastic.

I would like to say we got where we are with work...real work and with creativity. I did not jump on the Dean bandwagon because of the media. I really looked closely at both candidates, and I do believe a number of others have as well. While you are frustrated with those who did otherwise, please make room in your mind for praise for those of us who really did give Dennis Kucinich a fair shot in making our decisions.

[JohnKleeb]

48. There are some who do act like that though

I really try my best not to lose it but I saw and this in no way I hope reflects on your campaign but I was researching Wellstone, and I saw some blatant DK bashing on the site board. Thats no way a reflection of you all, in fact I think most Dean supporters here like DK. I didnt say you did but I have seen it.

[helleborient]

50. Everyone's being bashed somewhere...

Way back as a child, my mother let me know that the worst thing is that no one is paying any attention. If DK is being bashed, they are paying attention...Dean is getting a lot of attention...hence a lot of attacks.

[JohnKleeb]

52. hardly I meant on the web

If hes getting attention, how come in my little search on time magazine I got little info about Dennis no articles no nothing. I was lucky keyword lucky to read a brief article not even that in Rolling Stone. Look I try not to complain or lament but I oppose the death penalty all the way and want to make war a rare thing, hence I support Kucinich, plus I admire him for standing up for what was right as mayor.

[helleborient]

55. Uphill Realities...

1. I believe (I can be corrected here) that James Garfield was the last person elected President while serving in the U.S. House of Representatives. Ask Mo Udall and Richard Gephardt how difficult it is to use the House as a springboard. And DK doesn't have the additional boost of being part of the party leadership in the House. This is the first point where the media starts to not pay close attention.

2. For the media, ethnic names do still seem to be a liability...I don't think Dukakis was helped by this in his run for President and it would have been a bigger problem for Gov. Blagojevich in my state if the Republican Party wasn't riddled by scandal.

3. Uncompromising tough stances for what a candidate thinks is the clear right way to do things doesn't often fare that well in Presidential races. You can see that in both parties...Pat Buchanan and Pat Robertson have not done well in running for the Repubican nomination...likewise Shirley Chisholm didn't come very close to the Democratic nomination (someone I highly respect).

Merely by putting himself forward, you can rest assured many more people have heard Dennis Kucinich's message than would otherwise.

If he does not become the nominee this year, I would like to see him run for Senator or Governor in Ohio...then that might make a good platform for a future run for President. To me, he represents an absolutely vital part of the Democratic Party and the national conversation on issues of fundamental importance.

[Mairead]

57. Let me just point out

that Dennis is part of the House leadership: he's co-chair of the largest Dem caucus.

[JohnKleeb]

58. thanks for mentioning that

I am sorry :( its that all of this made me feel god awful. My mouth is dry as anything, sigh I really feel like weeping at times out of frustration I cant explain it, I dont know I try my best I try not to get mad, disparaged, or sad but everytime I read a news article about a certain issue and dont see DK mentioned I groan and I groan. Perhaps I was better made for canada with my super liberal views. I dont know what to say really. I am sorry if I am complaining but all of this puts a lot of stress on me. I didnt mean to inadvertently insult them but I just wish that the people of this nation were smarter. I have many reasons to support. Seeing all those videos with him Kucinich really makes me feel good but the fight I no doubt is the good one but winning it omg thats gonna be really hard. On edit bloody hell look at our newest member.

[helleborient]

60. Excuse me...I was looking at the Democratic Party's House Web Site

Which does not list the individual caucuses as part of the leadership...it only lists those that represent the entire Democratic caucus.

[JohnKleeb]

61. He is head of the progressive cancus which is a nice feat

Has some of the better dems in the house.

[helleborient]

29. Seems a little off-target....

Dennis' supporters seem to be hanging a lot on their assumption that most of Dean's support is from far left liberals.

My experience at meetups and talking to other Dean supporters doesn't bear this out...we count centrist Republicans and others fiscally rather conservative among our supporters.

Basically, to me (and granted, I'm a Dean supporter so I know it is skewed)...this site is saying "You are stupid and we're going to educate you!!!"

I don't listen very long when someone is calling me stupid...and look much longer at a pro-DK site than an anti-Dean one.

If this site works for you, great...it's not the way I like to see campaigns go...and I thought most Dennis Kucinich supporters didn't either having noticed the venom of responses to Dean supporters who stoop to using similar tactics.

[diamondsoul]

34. Most Kucinich supporters don't, helle.

And I make a point of chiming in when I see things like this to say I think they go totally against Dennis' attitudes about right and wrong, and therefore don't fit a good strategy for his campaign efforts.

One of the main contentions about the Kucinich effort, though, is that we aren't trying to control each other. Kucinich does the speaking for us, and we do the leg-work for him. Some people are going to take a different appraoch to that than others, and that's their right. The danger, obviously, is that those who take a negative or malicious approach may be seen as a standard Kucinich supporter and tar him with the malicious brush.

I speak up because Kucinich is NOT malicious in any way shape or form, with the possible exception of his attitudes towards Bushco and corporations. Even that isn't really malice, it's plain old outrage, and I think most of us can identify with that.

[helleborient]

35. Thank you...

From a Dean supporter who has seen the "A Dean Supporter is a Kucinich supporter...." signs and enouraged our people to stick with promoting Dean instead of waging a "tit for tat" fight over rhetoric.

You're exactly right about the possible downside of the bottom-up control of campaigning encouraged by both Kucinich and Dean camps.

[revcarol]

36. Kucinich asked his supporters to stop using the Harris comparison,

and he may ask on this one too.

The one thing about his campaign that is the most evident: he doesn't get PERSONAL in his campaigning, and he has all the FACTS about others' stances and doesn't promote lies...

AND IT ABSOLUTELY INFURIATES ME THAT HE WOULDN'T APPROVE OF US CALLING BUSH A "CHIMP!!"

[helleborient]

38. Frankly, I admire that about the campaign in general so far...

I don't see any of the candidates taking personal potshots...there has been tough hard-hitting addressing of issues.

It seems that it's us that talk about height, wives, personal war records, etc. etc.

[diamondsoul]

39. *wince* Guilty as charged.

Yikes, rev, you got me on that one. I honestly don't know what to call him anymore. I can't stand to even type his name, refuse to call him my "President" because he isn't and shouldn't be, and honestly my hatred for him is a galvanizing force that I don't necessarily want to be rid of just yet.

You made a strong point, though, damn ya! Now I have to figure out something not so venomous even towards BUSH?! This is going to be tough!:P

[helleborient]

40. You can start by using president with a small "p"

and then use the capital "P" when referring to the future post-election.

[genius]

64. Good site. The truth is a public service and the voters need

to see comparisons of their positions on the issues to make an intelligent decision.