Dean dump for renie

[Egnever]

This should help you in your quest. This was done by another DU member not me. I think this is what you are looking for.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=43435&mesg_id=43435&page=


grassroots (People Powered Howard)
Dean Raises $7.5 Million in Second Quarter
In the second quarter ending yesterday, 59,000 Americans donated an average of $112 to help boost Governor Howard Dean to the top of the second quarter fundraisers with a total of $7.5 million raised.

Unlike the small, exclusive multi-million dollar fundraisers held in major cities by President Bush over the last week, the Dean campaign saw its numbers surge based on small donations over the Internet—with nearly $3 million raised online in the last week alone. In the second quarter, 45,030 people donated online a total of 51,474 times. The average donation online was $74.14.

“When we said last week during the governor’s announcement that ‘You have the power,’ we had no idea just how much power our supporters had,” said Campaign Manager Joe Trippi. “They are people participating directly in their democracy, and doing whatever they can to help us take our country back—giving $20, $30, or $50. This is People-Powered Howard.”

Second quarter fundraising by the numbers:

Total raised in second quarter: $7,500,000 Total donors (2003 to date): 70,000
Average contribution: $112

First time donors in second quarter: 48,000

Levels of Internet Giving:
Less than $50: 18,422
$50 -- 99: 11,579
$100 -- $249: 11,436
$250 -- $499: 2,379
$500 -- $1,000: 368
$1,000 and up: 129
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000584.html

Howard Dean's trick by Mark Shields
WASHINGTON (Creators Syndicate) -- The reaction of the Democratic Party establishment to former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean's raising more money during the second quarter of the year than any of his eight rivals for the party's presidential nomination reminds me of the legendary Theodore White's memorable report of the scene in the Boston Garden during John F. Kennedy's last campaign rally on the eve of the 1960 presidential election.

JFK, according to White, was surrounded on the stage by a " covey of the puffy, pink-faced, predatory-lipped politicians who had so dominated Massachusetts politics before he had taken over." Noting their "envious faces" as the candidate spoke, Richard Donahue, a Kennedy aide observed: "You know they can't understand this. They think he has a trick. They're listening to him because they think if they learn the trick, they can be president, too."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/07/column.shields.opinion.dean/
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000634.html

61,028 people have now signed up for Meetup!
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000676.html

26,376 People have Signed the Truth Petition
Yesterday, Governor Dean called for the resignation of those who misled the nation in regards to Iraq, and asked people to join him. In less than 24 hours, 26,376 people added their names to the truth petition. That's over 1,000 new people every hour.

"This is a tremendous outpouring of frustration from the American people," Dean said today. "They know that someone has misled them, misled our troops and misled the world. Someone must be held responsible for damaging America's reputation in the world community. We must be able to trust our leaders, just as the rest of the world must be able to trust us."

Please cut and paste this URL and send it to your friends, asking them to join the petition:

http://www.deanforamerica.com/truth
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000660.html

Bush's lack of credibility
Dean Says Those Who Misled Nation Should Resign
Click here to add your name to a petition demanding that those responsible for misleading the American people resign. Let others know about the petition by telling them about this link: http://www.deanforamerica.com/truth

Manchester, NH -- Governor Howard Dean issued the following statement today:

"Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld's statement yesterday -- that he only found out that the Niger documents were forgeries -- “within recent days” was stunning.

"What is now clear is that there are those in this administration that misled the President, misled the nation, and misled the world in making the case for the war in Iraq.

"They know who they are. And they should resign today.

"There will be investigations, and the truth will come out - the American people must know the truth - and those in this administration must be held accountable for their failure to give us the truth before we went to war.

"But we do not need to wait for the investigations to rid these people from our government - they can resign on their own today.

"I am now convinced more than ever that it was a mistake to have given this administration a blank check to engage in this war - as too many in Congress did when they supported the Iraqi war resolution."
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000651.html

Dean Criticizes Bush for Reckless Rhetoric
IOWA CITY, IA—“Today, President Bush provoked Iraqi militants targeting our soldiers in Iraq, saying ‘Bring them on.’ This was incredibly reckless rhetoric.

“These men and women are risking their lives every day, and the President who sent them on this mission showed tremendous insensitivity to the dangers they face. This is the wrong message to send to our troops in the field and their families who wish them a safe return. President Bush should focus on encouraging the keeping of the peace, since that is now our mission.”
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000595.html

Iraq invasion
LiberalOasis: What do you think were the motivations for the Bush Administration to go to war with Iraq?

Howard Dean: I can't speak to his motives, because I can't read his mind.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, though, and presume that he believes Saddam Hussein was an imminent threat to our security.

I happen to disagree with that; I think we had Saddam pretty well contained. My problem with the war in Iraq isn't with motivation; it's with justification.

I don't believe the President was able to show that Iraq was an imminent threat to our security; his whole rationale for using force was based on the idea that they might be a danger to the United States at some point in the future.

Frankly, I've never understood why he was concentrating on Iraq, which had been successfully contained for twelve years, while every day a country like North Korea develops its nuclear capability.
...
Liberal Oasis: You've taken some flak for saying, following the downfall of Saddam Hussein, "I suppose that's a good thing.”

USA Today's Walter Shapiro said it was an "off-key note" and "even Democrats who doubt the strategic wisdom of the war have to agree that Saddam's ouster was unquestionably a good thing."

Senator Evan Bayh said in response, "equivocating about whether Saddam's departure is a good thing or not doesn't help the Democratic Party." What's your response?

Howard Dean: It is undeniable that Saddam Hussein is a despicable tyrant. In my opposition to the war, I have never suggested anything to the contrary.

Of course, in and of itself, Saddam’s departure is a good thing.

But the costs of the war - some known, some unknown - and what I considered to be an insufficient justification for unilateral action led me to conclude that this was the wrong war at the wrong time, and my view has not changed.

The jury is still out on whether or not the operation will be seen as successful one; we’re not quite sure what we have created in the Arab world. The reconstruction effort has gotten off to a very rocky start.

What we have created in Washington, though, is a dangerous new doctrine of preventive war that could cause serious problems for us down the line.
...
http://www.liberaloasis.com/dean.htm

fiscal responsibility
"We cannot have social justice without a sound fiscal foundation. We must balance the federal budget."

Gov. Howard Dean, M.D.
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=about_issues_fiscal

education
Teacher Salary: Ranked #24 Vermont $36,053
Ranked #2 Vermont with 13.7 students per teacher
http://homeplans.hsh.com/articles/education/edu-rank.asp

gun regulation
...
MR. RUSSERT: Let me turn to an issue that you seem to break away from liberal Democratic orthodoxy and that’s gun control. This is a brochure in your gubernatorial campaign from the NRA.

“In November we should return a truly pro-gun Governor to office by re-electing Governor Howard Dean.” And again, David Broder’s coverage of your campaign. “Dean bragged that he has ‘an A rating’ from the National Rifle Association... he argued that ‘as Democrats, we ought to say keep the federal laws we have, enforce them, but no new laws.’ Get the gun issue off the table. It cost Al Gore three states—and the presidency.”

Which states did Gore lose because of guns?

GOV. DEAN: I think Montana, Tennessee and West Virginia. There may be more, but those are the ones I would guess, given their patterns with previous elections.

MR. RUSSERT: Democrats in Congress right now are saying that at gun shows, you can buy a gun on Saturday or Sunday and there is no background check, because many law enforcement agencies are closed. They want to extend that deadline. Would you support that kind of gun control?

GOV. DEAN: What I would support—I do support closing the gun show loophole, but I would like to see InstaCheck, which is the same system that we have elsewhere, and I think if it takes keeping somebody on duty in law enforcement agencies, that would be fine. Look, let me explain to you why I take the position I do on gun control. In Vermont, in the last 11 years, we’ve had between a high of 25 and a low of five homicides per year. Most of them, the majority, are domestic related, not many of them have firearms and not one of them would be changed if we had gun control. We essentially have no gun control in Vermont. All we have is you can’t bring guns to school.

Now, I don’t believe for a moment that that’s appropriate for New York or Los Angeles or Washington, D.C. But the point I’m trying to make here is why does gun control have to be a national issue? We have some good federal laws. I support keeping them. We should close the gun show loophole with Instacheck and after that why can’t each state make its own laws? Why can’t each state address what they want to do about gun control as a state? Because what we need in Vermont is not the same thing as what you may need in Washington, D.C.

A guy in Tennessee told me, “Look, when you say gun control to me in Tennessee, it sounds like you want to take away the squirrel rifle that my father gave to me. When you say gun control in New York, it sounds like you want to get the Uzis and the illegal handguns off the street.” It’s two different problems. We have national laws. I’m not in favor of repealing them, but I think additional gun control ought be to be done on a state-by-state basis if the state wants it and we ought not to have a one-size-fits-all federal government approach.

MR. RUSSERT: But keep people traveling from state to state very easily.

GOV. DEAN: That’s right. And Virginia is a perfect example of this. New York claimed that a lot of their guns were coming from Virginia, so they had lax laws, so they signed a bill that said you can only buy one gun a month. That’s a Virginia law. It doesn’t apply to other states. It seems to me it addressed the problem in Virginia successfully. Why can’t we do that?

Democrats are getting killed on gun control. Democratic activists who basically are in favor of gun control are glad to see me coming in the West and the South, because they do not want to lose any more national elections on the gun issue.
...
http://dean2004.blogspot.com/2002_08_25_dean2004_archive.html

media consolidation
It’s been a busy day, but it’s great to blog here on Larry Lessig’s blog.

I’ll be writing all week, but if there’s a day I can’t make it, Joe Trippi, my campaign manager, will fill in for me. Thank you Professor Lessig for inviting me.

The Internet might soon be the last place where open dialogue occurs. One of the most dangerous things that has happened in the past few years is the deregulation of media ownership rules that began in 1996. Michael Powell and the Bush FCC are continuing that assault today (see the June 2nd ruling).

The danger of relaxing media ownership rules became clear to me when I saw what happened with the Dixie Chicks. But there’s an even bigger danger in the future, on the Internet. The FCC recently ruled that cable and phone based broadband providers be classified as information rather than telecommunications services. This is the first step in a process that could allow Internet providers to arbitrarily limit the content that users can access. The phone and cable industries could have the power to discriminate against content that they don’t control or-- even worse-- simply don’t like.

The media conglomerates now dominate almost half of the markets around the country, meaning Americans get less independent and frequently less dependable news, views and information. James Madison and Thomas Jefferson spoke of the fear that economic power would one day try to seize political power. No consolidated economic power has more opportunity to do this than the consolidated power of media.

Posted by Howard Dean at 06:31 PM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000683.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=14068&mesg_id=14068&page=

medical marijuana
Anyway since there seems to be some confusion over Deans stance on medicinal marijuana I thought you folks might to see a post made by the Doc himself in answer to an 18 year olds query on the subject.

"Jeremy(from previous thread). I'm impressed that an 18 year old would spend time on a political blog site. Here is a short summary of my drug policy. 1) drug abuse ought to be treated as a public health problem not a judicial problem. I do not favor legalization because we already have enough problems with the two drugs that are legal, alcohol and tobacco. I also believe that if people are dealing heroin to kids or shooting people that jail is more than appropriate. But if your "crime", is being a substance abuser you belong in rehab, not jail. 2)I will order the FDA to study marijuana to see what medicinal effects it may have. I do not think marijuana should have a process different than every other drug to evaluate whether or not it has medical value. Based on the studies I have read, my guess is that the FDA may find that is useful in patients with HIV/Aids, and various forms of cancer, but not for such things as treating glaucoma, where there are other drugs available, and where the risks outway the benefits. I';m on the way back from New York, so i got to read alot of the blogging that went on today. You folks are terrific!! Thank you for an incredible day, and an incredible quarter. Howard Dean

Posted by howard dean at July 1, 2003 12:42 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1784&mesg_id=1784&page=

racial profiling
Let's Start Calling Racial Profiling What It Is
AUSTIN—Dean said today that he would take federal action, including withholding federal funding, against state and local law enforcement agencies that engage in racial profiling. As president, Dean would use the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to label racial profiling by law enforcement as a form of discrimination. “Let’s start calling racial profiling what it is—discrimination based upon race,” Dean said.

In comments today to the annual meetings of the National Council of La Raza here and the NAACP in Miami, Dean took issue with the recent memorandum circulated by Attorney General John Ashcroft on the subject of profiling and with the Bush administration’s position that this is a state and local issue over which the federal government has little control. “This is a civil rights issue, and that makes it a federal issue,” Dean said. “Racial discrimination is illegal in hiring, housing, and voting. It should be illegal as a law enforcement technique too.”

“Condemning racial profiling is not enough,” said Dean. “Racial profiling is a serious civil rights issue, and the administration should do more than circulate a memo saying ‘don’t do it’ to federal enforcement agencies he oversees, like the FBI and DEA.”

“As President, I will direct my Attorney General to use regulatory authority under existing anti-discrimination laws—the 1964 Civil Rights Act—to define racial profiling as discrimination, and to withhold federal funds from departments that violate those regulations.”

Governor Dean also made clear that if existing law does not provide sufficient authority, he would seek legislation providing the authority necessary to take stronger action to end profiling, saying “Racial profiling is wrong, and it deserves more than a memo, Mr. Ashcroft.”
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000681.html

civil unions
...
On no issue is the contrast between Dean's national image as a liberal and his reputation at home more evident than gay rights.

As he campaigns for president, Dean has won broad support from gays and lesbians for signing a bill that made Vermont the only state to give gay couples the same legal rights as married people. Dean says he put principle ahead of polls and stood up for what he believed in
spite of the political risk. And he almost lost reelection in 2000 after the bill sparked a backlash.

But the matter of civil unions — like the governorship itself — was
foisted on him by external events.

In 1999, the state Supreme Court unanimously decreed that gay couples were due the same legal rights of marriage as heterosexuals. Dean left it to lawmakers to respond, saying only that he would not sign a bill permitting gay marriage.

After a prolonged and fractious debate, the Legislature reached its compromise, coining the "civil union" concept that allows gay partners such benefits as inheritance and hospital-visitation rights, but not the same recognition as heterosexual marriage.

When the bill reached his desk, Dean signed it in the confines of his office, away from the reporters and camera crews gathered for a news conference. Critics bitterly quipped that he signed it in the closet.
Dean says he avoided a showy ceremony to prevent further divisiveness.

To many in Vermont, the episode was pure Dean, a governor who focused on a few issues — health care for children, a balanced budget, paying down debt — and pursued them with few distractions.
...
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-dean12jul12,1,6655901.story?coll=la-home-leftrail

killbotfactory says:
18. It's true, although the LA Times article is not...
Dean came out in favor of the ruling in a matter of hours, and pushed the issue when other democrats wanted to send it to be studied until after the election because it was the right thing to do.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=29412&mesg_id=29412&page=#29486

More information here:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=about_issues

biography
Feeling Dean’s Pain
His straight talk and blunt, suffer-no-fools style have helped make him the Democrat to watch in 2004. What makes Howard Dean tick?

By Howard Fineman
NEWSWEEK

July 21 issue — Charlie Dean died 30 years ago in the jungles of Laos at the age of 23. But all these years later his older brother, Howard, remains angry and unsettled about the event—and the unanswered questions that surround it.
...
http://www.msnbc.com/news/937672.asp?0cv=KB10

links
Campaign website:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/
Official campaign blog:
http://www.blogforamerica.com/
Unofficial Dean Blog
http://dean2004.blogspot.com/
Dean Defense Forces (unofficial):
http://www.deandefense.org/

Gov. Howard Dean, M.D. for President!

[meegbear]

1. you couldn't have PM'd this ...

or sent email?

[ProfessorPlum]

2. this info is relevant to our current campaign

and surely there will be others who benefit from it.

Maybe you could have PM'd your message as well?

[RetroLounge]

3. You couldn't have ignored the thread.

Here's a clue to lower your blood pressure.

Avoid the Dean threads, they seem to upset you and cause you to post without thought.

What? No Boondocks cartoon today?

[Egnever]

4. why in the world would I PM it?

Rennie was making the point in his thread below that he sees a lot of negative info posted on dean and people ignoring it. I assume he is not alone in this. Better to bring this post back up for all to read that might be having the same feelings but not voicing them instead of waiting for each one to speak up and PMing them.

Why in the world does this post bother you?

[renie408]

51. Thanks

Since it was addressed to me, I don't understand why anybody else who wasn't interested even bothered with the info. Thanks for pointing it out for me, I haven't been near a computer for about three days and would have otherwise missed it. I have about 60 emails to crawl through, but I will go through this stuff.

First impressions: it is impressive to me that so much of Dean't financial support is from small contributors. I didn't get much further than that on an initial skimming, but I will. I am going to bookmark the info.

[Egnever]

7. nope

he doesnt accept PMs. After you wrote this I tried just in case he missed the post.

[renie408]

52. He's a she, BTW

[UnapologeticLiberal]

8. Why? It's useful for a lot of people

These are some good links. Thank you for posting them.

[Cha]

20. Why do you care?

I for one am Happy for this info!

[Nicholas_J]

5. For alternative views:

Howard Dean: Hawk in Dove’s Clothing?
by Stephen Zunes

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0226-04.htm

Meet Howard Dean
The Man from Vermont is Not Green (He's Not Even a Liberal)

http://www.counterpunch.org/colby02222003.html

Dean bites Democrats

One certainty about the 2004 presidential primary campaign is that Howard Dean will not be named Mr. Congeniality by his fellow Democratic contestants.

http://www.sover.net/~auc/deanbites.htm

State residents see a new Dean in presidential race

Auditor: He was a moderate as governor
By ELIZABETH MEHREN and MARK Z. BARABAK
Los Angeles Times




SOUTH BURLINGTON, Vt. - As Vermont governor, Howard Dean was known as a buttoned-down and bottom-line chief executive. He fought higher taxes, cut programs over the cries of fellow Democrats and often sided with business when the choice was jobs versus the environment.

Which explains why many people back home scarcely recognize Howard Dean the presidential candidate, who has stirred liberals across the country with his blunt talk and passionate antiwar speeches.

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/recent2003/0713%5Fdeanvermont%5F2003.shtml

Vermont Governors of the Modern Era, Subjective Rating and Evaluation;
Brief Comments on Their Respective Contributions
by Michael J. Badamo


http://www.sover.net/~auc/6govs.htm

Those who know Dean say he’s no classic liberal
By ROSS SNEYD

Associated Press Writer

MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP) — Howard Dean may be many things, say those who worked with him over nearly a dozen years as Vermont governor, but an elitist liberal is hardly one of them.

He’s actually a lot more moderate — many would say conservative — than the reputation he’s built during his campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination.

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may%5F03/may%5F19/news/reg%5Fvt0519a.asp

Federal court raps Vermont judges for violating protester's free-speech rights
By freedomforum.org staff, The Associated Press 03.05.01
BENNINGTON, Vt. — A federal judge has suspended orders barring a Vermont man from state court property, saying two state judges retaliated against him because he exercised his constitutional right to free speech.

http://www.nyjail4judges.org/inside/emails/2002/03-19-02freespeechrights.htm

Howard Dean: Find a message and stay on it

By Lisa Duvall, Associate Local News Editor


Did you see Howard Dean on "Meet the Press" last Sunday?

Dismal. Absolutely terrible. Dean spent more time going backward than forward, and it doesn't bode well for his campaign for the Democratic nomination for president.

http://www.timesleaderonline.com/columns/story/0630202003_col01_lisa.asp

Anybody but Bush? Watch out, Dems!
Let's aim higher than pro-death penalty, pro-drug war Dean

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=15211


Will the Real Howard Dean Please Stand Up?

advertisement

By Terry M. Neal
Washingtonpost.com Staff Writer
Thursday, July 31, 2003; 8:57 AM


Howard Dean is not a liberal – or so say the liberals who know him best in his home state of Vermont.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A4798-2003Jul30¬Found=true



Vermont Democrats' Campaign Finance Dilemma

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0215-02.htm


What Liberal Messiah?
Howard Dean, left-wing impostor.
By William Saletan


http://slate.msn.com/id/2084735/


Bitter Pill: Howard Dean and the tempting of the Democrats.

by Jonathan Chait, the New Republic, July 28, 2003



http://www.demog.berkeley.edu/~gabriel/dean2004blog/Anti_Dean_TNR_July_28_2003.htm


Dean's comments on civil liberties cause alarm
September 14, 2001

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html


Dean Dreams

BY MICHAEL COLBY

(bi-weekly — published 01.08.03)

Governor Howard Dean officially morphs into presidential candidate Dean this month, and we're already hearing elaborate, puffy tales about his stewardship of the state. Our outgoing governor is hoping he can pull out his golden parachute one more time and drift softly into the nation's top political job.

http://www.vce.org/deanenvironmentomya.html

Defender general’s status in doubt
August 14, 2001

By TRACY SCHMALER Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — A six-month delay in the reappointment of Defender General Robert Appel has led to speculation in legal and political circles that the governor plans to replace him.

Appel’s four-year term expired in the early part of the year, but Gov. Howard Dean has not made any announcements about returning Appel to the post he has held for eight years. That silence and the tenuous relationship between Dean and the office — which has played out publicly in the last several years — has many suggesting that Dean is going to tap someone else for the job.

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/31711.html



Muslim Wake Up

MWU! Helps Defeat Dean in MoveOn Primary
Well, may be we weren't completely responsible for Howard Dean falling short of the 50% he needed in the MoveOn.org virtual primary to gain the group's official endorsement, and all the campaign cash that would have entailed, but we'd like to think we played a small role in his defeat.

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/archives/000130.html


Dean Invites More Scrutiny By Switching Key Stances

Howard Dean, who sells himself as the presidential campaign's straightest shooter, is starting to throw voters some curves.

As he transitions from insurgent to the man to beat in the Democratic primary, Dean is modifying or switching his positions on several political issues. In recent weeks, Dean, the former Vermont governor, has softened his support for lifting the trade embargo on Cuba -- an important issue in voter-rich Florida -- and suggested he might opt out of the public campaign finance system he endorsed weeks earlier.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2314-2003Aug29.html

I don not know your political position. Conservative, centrist, or Liberal/progressive.

But most of this is from the Liberal/Progressive point of view, or just stuff from Vermont Local Newspapers Like the Rutland Herald, TImes ARgus, and Burlington Free Press, all repected papers and have won Pulitzer prizes for jounralistic excellence.

You should have a counterpoint of views in order consider who Howard Dean is, and if he represents point of view and positions closest to your own. Or if one of the other candidates would be better in serving your interests.

[Egnever]

6. Heh I find it extremely funny

That your post goes a long way to disproving many of the issues that renie had a problem with.

Again you seem to think that what america is looking for is some far left liberal. Something Dean is clearly not, And blame Dean for the media portraying him as one. It cracks me up really.

[Nicholas_J]

10. It depends

Dean went a long way to try to present that image himself...

The steling of the Paul Wellstone line..."I represent the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party" thus trying to align himself with the most liberal/progressive/ leftist member of congress surely wasnt chosen in order to present Dean as the FISCAL CONSERVATIVE/SOCIAL liberal that he actually led. Which simply means that Dean meant to mislead the media. In many articles in Vermont Newpapers, it is noted how Dean reveled in this kind of deceptive campaigning.

Being dishonest and misleading the media is hardly one of the credentials that should be on a presidentila resume.


But here are more questions for Renie to ponder about Dean..and ask about:

1. Why did you support sending Vermont's nuclear waste to the poor,
mostly Hispanic town of Sierra Blanca, Texas, 16 miles from the Mexican
border -- a plan described as "blatant environmental racism" by Paul
Wellstone?

2. Why did the Dean administration increase funding for Vermont's
state colleges by only 7% while you increased funding for prisons by
150%?

3. Why did IBM, the leading polluter in Vermont, receive your
Environmental Achievement Award nine times?

4. What did you mean when you said, "I've had 40 or 45 private
meetings with IBM since I've been governor. And IBM has gotten pretty
much everything they've asked for"?

6. Why did you wait for the courts and legislature to bring about the
civil union bill before you supported it? Why did you sign the bill
in private when you finally did sign it?

7. Why do you oppose the Israeli Labor Party candidate for prime
minister Amram Mitzna's call for unconditional peace talks with the
Palestinians?

8. While you acknowledge that you "haven't condemned Congress for
passing the Patriot Act," Bernie Sanders from your own state of
Vermont is leading efforts in Congress to overturn the Act. Why are
you not supporting Bernie Sanders' efforts and condemning Congress for
its attack on civil liberties?

9. How do you respond to Annette Smith of Vermonters of a Clean
Environment who says: "Dean's attempt to run for president as an
environmentalist is nothing but a fraud. He's destroyed the Agency of
Natural Resources, he's refused to meet with environmentalists while
constantly meeting with developers, and he's made the permitting process
one, big dysfunctional joke. EP under Governor Dean meant Expedite
Permits, not Environmental Protection"?

10. Since you pride yourself on your "fiscal responsibility", why do
you refuse to even consider any decreases in the bloated Pentagon
budget?

I can validate the IBM being the biggest polluter in Vermont here:



The hearing will be held at:

Wednesday, June 25th, 3:00 PM
Fish & Wildlife Building,
State of VT Office Complex
111 West Street
Essex Junction, Vermont
see map

The Vermont Agency for Natural Resources (ANR) has issued a draft permit to IBM to dump 50 tons of toxic heavy metals into the Winooski River each year! With ANR's and Governor Douglas' blessing, IBM will be allowed to dump heavy metals like lead, cadmium, and nickel into the river. These pollutants will eventually reach Lake Champlain, the drinking water supply for 188,000 people and one of Vermont's natural crown jewels.

http://www.clf.org/advocacy/winooski_river_action_alert.htm

Dean brought IBM into Vermont, loosened Vermonts environmental laws, which still had great standards, but Dean never enforced the environmental which is why IBM Dena was giving them environmental awards while dumping tons of toxins into Vermont Rivers...

Doesnt matter...
There is more thn enough info that is valid in those sources to give an actual picture of Howard Dean, not the persona his is attempting to create as candidate.

If Renie is conservative, she will go for Dean. If liberal someone else....Anyone else, even Lieberman.

[Egnever]

12. Or....

"I represent the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party" thus trying to align himself with the most liberal/progressive/ leftist member of congress

It could be he was trying to align himself with someone he has repatedly said he thought stood up for what he thought was right! Unafraid of the political wind. He has said many times he didnt agree with everything wellstone stood for but that he admired him for standing up for what he believes. Something that is sorely lacking in a few of our candidates.


The rest of your post i will leave alone as it is your typical try to paint dean badly by presenting tiny snipets of complex pictures even though they have all ben debunked for you many many times.

[Nicholas_J]

14. He could have have quoted

Any conservative who was more closely aligned with his policies. That is a crock. Dean quoted Wellstone to try to align himself with the liberals who are piised with the DLC. Dean himself has stated that he would let people think he was a Green to get voted (in the same interview in which he was quoted aas saying "If I am seen as the most liberal candidate running that is a pethics incictment...."


Sorry, Dean has been running a duplicitous candidacy, letting people think he was ANTI-WAR in Iraq with Anti-War crowds, not elucidating his position, and this is why the Washington Post did the article about his continula shifts in position. Dean will simply say whatever is necessary to get one group to support him, especially if he knows it is unlikely that they will ever be aware of him reversing himsef in another area.

This is classic Dean, andit was well know of him as governor.

[Cha]

21. A supporter first called Dean that when she was introducing him...

It wasn't Dean at all that started that and he just kept it up and has, of course, attributed it to Wellstone!

And bashers just pick on it cause they got nothin' else!

[acerbic]

13. Propaganda analysis:

Claims, claims, claims... no proof, except for something that Vermont's current repuke governor is doing.

The logical explanation to the lack of proof is that e.g. links to the alleged sources would show the claims to be "misinterpretations"...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=31378&mesg_id=32225&page=

[Nicholas_J]

15. Who Brought IBM into Vermont

Howard Dean:

May 17, 2002: Dean works to calm IBM fears

After talking with IBM officials Thursday, Gov. Howard Dean tried to reassure the state that its worst fears regarding Big Blue were just that - fears.


Dean provided no news on what IBM Corp. has in mind for its Essex Junction plant, but he said he does anticipate “adjustments” at the state’s largest employer. He declined to be more specific about whether that means layoffs.


“Based on my conversation today, in my opinion, this plant has been and will remain a vital part of IBM’s core,” Dean said.


Still, the uncertainty of the state’s largest employer’s future here, along with other manufacturing volatility throughout Vermont, prompted the governor to call for revamping the state’s economic development policy to refocus on small business.


“Big companies are no longer citizens of Vermont or even of America,” Dean said. “They are citizens of the world. Their decisions have nothing to do with Vermont.”


Thursday, Dean spent 45 minutes on the phone with IBM’s plant manager, Hank Geipel; spokesman Jeff Couture; and community relations manager John O’Kane. Dean called the conversation confiden tial, and IBM refused comment.


http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/specialnews/IBM/051702.htm


Dean looking for compromise on Chittenden Co. highway
January 21, 2001

By JOHN DILLON

Staff Writer

The Dean administration is hoping to avoid a lawsuit challenging construction of a new highway in Chittenden County by gathering all sides together to work out a compromise.

The 16-mile Circumferential Highway is designed to ease traffic congestion between Burlington suburbs. Yet environmentalists had threatened to push the road project into the slow lane by filing suit in federal court and raising claims that the original environmental impact studies - completed almost 15 years ago - are out of date.

The idea for the "stakeholders" meeting arose after Brian Dunkiel, a lawyer for the Friends of the Earth environmental group, met with executives at IBM, whose Essex Junction plant is the state's largest private employer. IBM officials say the new highway is necessary to solve traffic problems and to accommodate new growth planned at the company's campus.

But Dunkiel and other environmentalists say IBM's needs could be addressed with a smaller road, a commuter rail link, more car pooling or other alternatives. "It appeared to me it might make sense for a dialog," Dunkiel said.

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/State/Story/18854.html


Environmental Excellence in Pollution Prevention

Each year since 1993, Governor Howard Dean has hosted a Statehouse ceremony to recognize Vermont individuals, organizations, institutions, public agencies, and businesses using innovative approaches that reduce or eliminate the generation of pollutants and wastes. To date, nearly 90 Vermonters have been recognized for their efforts. The Governor's Awards for Environmental Excellence in Pollution Prevention honor the foresight and actions taken by those Vermonters who have contributed to the protection of Vermont's environment, the safety of its citizens, and the health of its economy.

At the most recent awards ceremony, held in the fall of 2000, the accomplishments of Governor's Award winners were impressive. Through their individual and collective efforts, the three companies in the Large Business category alone, IBM, Stratton Mountain Resort, and Tivoly, had eliminated the need for 102,000 gallons of acids and solvents, 32,000 pounds of salt, and 73 tons of sand. They had prevented the generation of 850,000 pounds of hazardous waste and 13 tons of carbon dioxide emissions. In aggregate, these companies achieved annual energy savings of more than 1.2 megawatt hours and conserved 2 million gallons of water. Annual cost savings for the four projects alone exceeded $750,000. (See sidebar) Again, proof positive that pollution prevention pays!

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/env01/waste.htm

Sorry..If it was not for Dean, the issue of pollution would not even exist. Virtuallt all vermont environmentalists did not agree with anything Dean did as governor


And nowhere will the tales of glory be more off the mark than when the Dean team gushes about his environmental record. "EP under Governor Dean means Expedite Permits, not Environmental Protection," proclaims Annette Smith, the director of the Danby-based Vermonters for a Clean Environment.

Smith is no stranger to Dean's record, having tangled with the Dean administration on everything from mining in Danby to pesticide usage on Vermont's mega-farms. When Smith learned that Dean was holding a press conference at the Burlington Community Boathouse recently to celebrate his eco-legacy, she fired off e-mails to Vermont environmentalists calling for a protest of the event and asking if they were "going to let Governor Dean ride out on his white horse of environmental leadership?"

It was Smith who stumbled onto Dean's official gubernatorial Web site a couple of years ago and found a bucolic photo of her home town of Danby featured with this caption: "Time stands still here -- you might even forget when it's time to go home." Ironically, the location depicted in the photo was the same spot Dean was pushing to host a massive gas pipeline, a plan that would have required timber clear-cuts and other dramatic topographical changes. The Dean team removed the photo within a couple of weeks, but not before Smith made hay with his apparent hypocrisy.

"Dean's attempt to run for president as an environmentalist is nothing but a fraud," Smith told Seven Days. "He's destroyed the Agency of Natural Resources, he's refused to meet with environmentalists while constantly meeting with the development community, and he's made the permitting process one big, dysfunctional joke."


http://www.vtce.org/deanenvironmentomya.html

Dean shines up his own image about environmentalism on Dean for America, yet no ennvironmentalist will give Dean credit for anything except the Champion Deal, and they are not too happy with that either.

[acerbic]

16. So what if Dean brought IBM into Vermont?

Are you saying that he should have kept all companies from coming to Vermont just in case they'd still be there when some future governor decides to loosen the environmental regulations? If you're not, what's the "point"?

[Nicholas_J]

18. Yup

Stating that Dean is not responsible for deteriorating environomantal conditions in Vermont is like saying that Pandora was note responsible for what happend when she opened the box.

It was Dean and the Repuplican House of the Vermont Legislature that created and set up s set of envoronomental rules that determined HOW much pollution was acceptable in order to bring big business in and then a Governmental Agency that was under Deans authority enforced it....

This is what is called' letting the fox guard the Hen House.

Again, do not divert attention from the issues. Stating that some future Governor would have is meaningless smoke. I WAS Dean who did it, and Dean who desired it.

Among other similar companies Dean Brought in were Monsanto, Husky Injection, ADM, and the Lucien Breton's Vermont Egg Factory, a large Agri-Business that is fam more polluting. Dean Telked a great Deal about protecting small family farms but during Deans tenure, Vermont lost 36 percent of its smalls as a result.

HE brought in Wal-Mart


This was done in the name of creating jobs. But likevthe Bush Tax Cuts not being really tax cuts but tax shifts. Dena job creations were not job creations, but displacements. All many small family owned businesses in the downtown areas Dean required Wal-Mart to setup in went out of business.

Re: Greater Burlington Industrial Corp. and Husky Injection Molding Systems, Inc.,
#4C1007-1-EB, Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, & Order (June 25, 1998)

VERMONT ENVIRONMENTAL BOARD
10 V.S.A.  6001-6092

Re: Greater Burlington Industrial Corp. and
Husky Injection Molding Systems, Inc.,
Land Use Permit Application #4C1007-1-EB
Docket #677


http://www.state.vt.us/envboard/decisions/eb/1998/4c1007-1-dec.txt

Leon Graves Should not be re-confirmed as Commissioner of Agriculture
Commissioner of Agriculture Leon Graves has lost the respect of both farmers and the consumers of this state. By his actions, he has shown disdain for small farmers, thumbed his nose at laws set by the legislature and sold out to corporate special interests. The issues are many, but the common thread is that unprecedented amounts of lobby money have been involved and Graves has always moved in the direction of the money. For these reasons he should not be reconfirmed as commissioner.

The Vermont Egg Factory in Franklin County is a prime example. The Vermont Egg Factory has spent $11,000 in 1996 for lobbying. The Department of Agriculture knew about this project for at least a year before the public found out. There was ample evidence that this would be of great concern to the public. . In Maine and Connecticut, odor, traffic, fly infestation, environmental degradation and taxpayer costs have become the community's burden. And yet Graves has insisted on his option to use a complaint driven policy that gives him absolute power. Both section 4495 and the Large Farm Act take away local control and give it to exclusively to the commissioner.

Mr. Graves has worked closely with the owner of the Vermont Egg Factory: Mr. Breton, and his agents, helping them to anticipate problems. He went as far as skewing testimony at the Environmental Board hearing on behalf of Mr. Breton and factory farming in general. Mr. Graves created his own data to make the facility seem smaller. The plans filed with the Department of Agriculture show the final phase with a total of one million chickens; this was never mentioned in Mr. Graves' testimony.

Aerial spraying of Vermont's forests became an important issue when Mr. Graves did not follow the Agriculture Department's own rules for allowing a public review process, including advisement from the Vermont Pesticide Advisory Council. These rules were created to reduce pesticide dependence and usage in Vermont. Were Monsanto and Champion influencing his opinion?

http://together.net/~wudchuck/987_watchman_34.html



Crisis in Agriculture in Vermont
A Special Report about Governor Howard Dean's Agriculture Department
From Vermonters for a Clean Environment, Inc.

DAFM is not responsive, is not providing a high level of service, is not regulating pesticide use, is not providing information, and is not supportive of Vermont's dairy farmers. Something is terribly wrong when our agriculture policies expose Vermonters to unhealthy pesticides and infringe on the economic viability of our family farms. Vermonters should have a right to farm, but no one, not even farmers, have a right to pollute the waters of the state, nor do they have the right to expose neighbors to the increased risk of birth defects or cancers by their misuse of highly toxic pesticides. The right to farm that DAFM is protecting in Highgate is factory food production, at the expense of the family farm. Allowing collateral damage is not acceptable agricultural practice.

The legislature set up the Vermont Pesticide Advisory Council “to suggest programs for wise and effective pesticide use that lead to an overall reduction in the use of pesticides in Vermont.” In its 15 years of existence, VPAC has not dealt with the subject of the use of pesticides in agriculture.

Our Governor, our legislators and our courts have failed to protect Vermonters from the big money, corporate farming and chemical company interests whose agenda is being carried out by the current Agriculture Czar.

http://www.vtce.org/deancrisisagvt.html



Dean's record, however, shows just the opposite. Remember, when Dean took office there were no Wal-Marts in Vermont; there was no Home Depots; Burlington's downtown was dominated by local stores not the national chains that now rule the roost; there were 36% more small farmers in existence; there were no 100,000-hen mega-farms; and sprawl wasn't a word on the tip of everyone's tongue.

Interestingly, Dean told the Free Press last week that he wished the rest of "the country were more like Vermont." But it certainly seems Dean has been doing his best to make Vermont more like the rest of the country.

Stephanie Kaplan, a leading environmental lawyer and the former executive officer of Vermont's Environmental Board, has seen the regulatory process under Dean become so slanted against environmentalists and concerned citizens that she hardly thinks its worth putting up a fight anymore

A year after receiving their public rebuke from Dean, four of the Environmental Board members ­ including the chair ­ were up for reappointment. With the not-so-subtle clues from Dean that he didn't approve of the Board's political direction, the Republican majority in the state senate shot down each and every one of their appointments, thus dramatically changing both the structure and climate of the Board.

"After the post-C&S purge," says Kaplan, "the burden of proof for Act 250 permits switched from being on the applicants -- where it's supposed to be -- to being on the environmentalists. That's why 98% of the permit requests are approved and only 20% ever have hearings."



http://www.counterpunch.org/colby02222003.html


From the beginning of Dean tenure, his ENVIRONMENTALISM was apparant:


Sprawl-Mart' Endangers Vermont
Keith Henderson, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor, 12/6/93
WATERBURY, VT.

THE tension between environmentalism and capitalism has special meaning in Vermont. Here, the environment that rallies protectors isn't only the dense forests and wild streams of the Green Mountain and Taconic ranges. It's also the village centers and rustic farmsteads that seem like backdrops for Norman Rockwell paintings.

Last summer, the National Trust for Historic Preservation turned up the perennial debate over how to manage growth in Vermont by designating the whole state an ``endangered historic place.'' The danger, said the Trust, was ``sprawl-mart,'' a none-too-veiled reference to Wal-Mart, the mega-retailer currently battling to set up shop up here. From the state house and editorial pages came appreciation for this ``needed warning.''

From other quarters came the comment that the warning was misplaced - that what really ought to stir Vermonters is the loss of thousands of well-paid jobs in their state. Downsizing and plant closings by IBM, General Electric, Johnson Controls, and other manufacturers have hit Vermont disproportionately hard, given the state's small manufacturing base to begin with.

It's a different climate from the 1980s, when New England's economic boom washed into Vermont and a revenue-rich state government put even more resources into a regulatory system often called a model of environmental vigilance. Now demands to adjust the balance in favor of economic development are far more determined.

http://perth.uwlax.edu/faculty/stoelting/Landuse/Articles/sprawl.htm


Now if you want to tout Dean as creating jobs, thats fine, but dont try to laabel him as a superb environmentalist from his own screed.

Thats simply unacceptable. IF you can find environmentalists who praise Dean, for anything other than the Champion Deal, then MAYBE a SMALL claim for his care for the environment would be possible to state.

Deans real record in this area is atrocious.

By the way, why is it that if I make statement about Dean they require a propaganda analysis, but your undocumenteed statements are to be accepted on faith?

[acerbic]

19. A-ha.

To recap, the question was: Are you saying that he should have kept all companies from coming to Vermont just in case they'd still be there when some future governor decides to loosen the environmental regulations?

"Nicholas_J"'s answer: "Yup".

That doesn't really need much commenting... :eyes:

By the way, why is it that if I make statement about Dean they require a propaganda analysis, but your undocumenteed statements are to be accepted on faith?

What statements might you be trying to talk about?

[Nicholas_J]

26. And now provide YOUR

NON-PROOAGANDA...

Provide sourcesn not from Dean campaign, or sourced back to Deans own campaign or from Dean himself or his supporters, that support Deans stance...



Get off of your propagandizing and attacking me, If you cannot provide good reason fopr Deans actions. And people who supported those decisions he made from the environmentalist community and other stakeholders in the area.

If yuo are pro-destroy th environment for profit, just state it and that your candidate represents that point of view of your and be done with it.

All yoo are doing here is attacking the messenger, because the message about Dean is TRUE.

When you cannot justify your position, you attack me...

I say it again, If you want to credit Dean for creating Jobs at the expense of the environment do so....

You just will not admit that this is the case.

Yes Dean should have kept the large companies out of Vermont rather than bringing them in and destroying a large number of smaller family in businesses in the process.

Yes Dean is a coprorate whore.



If you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.

— Mohandas K. Ghandi (1869-1948).

http://www.jimpoz.com/quotes/truth.asp

There have been frequent references to another quote, i forget from who, but to paraphrased, the more a person is attacked ,the more likely they are to be telling the truth...

Being one of the most attacked people on DU I am honored as it makes me one of the most truthful.

[ProfessorPlum]

27. You're the most, all right.

:eyes:

and now look, you've forced me to use a stupid smiley.

[acerbic]

29. Silly...

Yes Dean should have kept the large companies out of Vermont rather than bringing them in and destroying a large number of smaller family in businesses in the process.

Oh, those poor destroyed mom-and-pop chip design shops... :silly:

[Nicholas_J]

30. Sorry...

He didnt need to bring high tech businesses to Vermont to create jobs. There are very intelligent and innovative politicians who use innovative techniques to revitalize existing businesses rather than use old fashioned Wall Street Style solutions to create jobs.

And since 80 percent of ALL jobs in the us are generated in those SMALL businesses you are mocking, Deans big ideas are archaic.

Even worse, they are self serving sources of campaign funding.


People like Kerry Kucinich, Gephardt and Edwards are the most forward looking people in these areas. Dean is a Deanosaur

[acerbic]

33. Sillier:

in those SMALL businesses you are mocking,

I was mocking your claims that bringing IBM to Vermont destroyed small businesses, but then you have that habit of claiming that other people are saying things they aren't saying (your "misinterpretations")... :eyes:

[Nicholas_J]

34. IBM

Destroys the environment...

Wal Mart destroys the small businesses.

Dean goes two for two in destruction.

You made the decision to cross the message in my post in order to misrepresent my post.

[MercutioATC]

39. "Wal Mart destroys the small businesses"...well, yeah, but...

they're only successful because they're providing a service that a lot of people want (one-stop discount shopping). In fact, it's OUR fault for providing the economic climate that MAKES them so successful.

Actually, I don't even consider it a problem. If we expect different behavior from corporations, we have to write laws that will encourage them to be socially responsible. In the absence of these restrictions, who can blame WalMart for giving us exactly what we ask for?

[KaraokeKarlton]

54. There's no Walmarts in my area of Vermont

And if there are any at all, they have to be pretty new. The last I knew Vermont didn't have any Walmarts. NH has them, though...and since there's no sales tax in NH, that's where most Vermonters go (if they are close enough) to shop. I can find reference to one in Rutland and one in Berlin, and I'm guessing there's probably one in Burlington. I'll say this much...there are not a lot of Walmarts here. There are some areas of the state that would really benefit from one, though. The town I lived in a couple of years ago had an old Ames store and a small Family Dollar store. There were NO other places to buy clothes, electronics or household items. Ames closed and left people having to drive a half hour to shop for things they need. Walmart would be a miracle for that town. Before anyone criticizes Walmart opening a store somewhere, people ought to look at what other stores are in the area. Obviously, if there are virtually no stores in the area, Walmart isn't going to hurt anyone, but instead, will help the community and provide jobs. I just told my 17 year old that someone is arguing that Vermont has too many Walmarts. She said "I've never even seen one Walmart in Vermont! You have to go to NH to see a Walmart!"

[ProfessorPlum]

58. Hi KK

Thanks for your great posts about Vermont. So different a picture than the one some others around here are painting.

My (unscientific) search of the Walmart website reveals only three Walmarts in VT: Williston, Berlin, and Rutland.

Cheers!

PP

[KaraokeKarlton]

59. Yep, and Williston is near Burlington

Each of those areas have enough people to shop at Walmart AND other stores. Some people fail to mention that those are basically Vermont's biggest cities. I know there are malls in Burlington and Rutland and K-marts as well. People from all over the state drive to those places to shop at all the stores, not just Walmart. Those have been there for years and if K-mart and the malls didn't destroy small businesses, why would Walmart? Retail has never been where Vermont has shined, and there aren't a lot of small businesses that offer the same items large department stores do. Why should Vermonters have to drive to NY, NH and MA to buy clothing? Maybe some people can't afford to pay $75 for a pair of designer jeans most smaller stores sell. Those stores offer jobs and access to items that wouldn't normally be available to those communities. I have to go to NH to buy anything but antiques, skis and maple syrup because of our radical liberals who try to block any growth whatsoever. I work in NH, too. Good for Dean for providing jobs and a service that was much needed to my state.

[Nicholas_J]

32. Not Every time you praise Dean for something

Do you provide any reasoning other than Deans propaganda for doing so...


So you are therefore propagandizing.

[acerbic]

35. Again claims, no proof:

Not Every time you praise Dean for something
Do you provide any reasoning other than Deans propaganda for doing so...

A very very simple question: where have I supposedly praised Dean for something without providing any reasoning other than Deans propaganda for doing so as you claim/"misinterpret"? Quote and link, please. This is an example of how quoting and linking is usually done:

O.K. I am wrong I misinterpreted the article...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=31378&mesg_id=32225&page=

[Nicholas_J]

62. Let rephrase that

You're totally wrong about that:
but nice try.
Nope, a really lame try.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=21582#21590

I beleive you have just stated that someone was wrong about a statement madae about Dean here, but you have done nothing to back this up, simply given your opinion.

[acerbic]

64. "Rephrase"?

Your claim that you pretend to only "rephrase" was that I have supposedly praised Dean for something without providing any reasoning other than Dean's propaganda for doing so.

In that "example" you found I commented on the lameness of typical BS conjecture that I see you've dredged up again in your typical obsessive manner. Anyone who can actually read sees that I didn't praise Dean of anything.

[XanaDUer]

17. If compared, the Dean supporters' list compared to the one supplied

by nicholas_j is more research-oriented.

The other list is what researchers would call self sourcing. i.e.,

even articles not off the Dean campaign site rely on information garnered from it.

Better to have neutral information from myriad sources, and these look liberal or progressive.

Is there a group of envirnonmentalists who support what Dean did in Vermont? If so, that *would* be better proof for the environmental state in VT.

[w4rma]

22. Nic's research relies mostly on second-hand sources and editorials, IMHO

I tried to get as close to the original sources as I could for the information I provided, rather than providing a source that would filter the original sources through a more ideological lens.

Also, my research is geared more towards Dean's positions on national policy. I (and most of Dean's supporters, IMHO) already know and that Dean governed as a moderate Democrat in Vermont.

[Nicholas_J]

25. Doesnt matter

As long as you are only finding Deans opinions of Dean from Dean, his campaign, or his supporters, it is about as valid as a racists opinion of the KKK.

Self sourcing is the most riduculous type of research on a candidate, because eventually all of the information you provide come the candidates own opinion of himself, the worse sort of editorial of all.

Even editorials from newspapers where Dean lived and governed have a grteater value than info from Dean himself. It comes from working people who worked while Dean wwas their governor, envoronmentalists who tried to protect the environment while Dean was thwarting them, from progressives who tried to get just and fair taxation in Vermont while Dean opposed them.

All you provide is Dean looking into a mirror telling himself how wonderful he is.

[w4rma]

36. I'm going to repeat myself here for emphasis

I (and most of Dean's supporters, IMHO) already know that Dean governed as a moderate Democrat in Vermont.

Also, editorials always look at facts through a filter. I'd rather look see the facts without the filter and make decisions on my own.

[AP]

40. This is my very personal opinion, and I don't mean to impose

it upon anyone.

I think it's wiser to be a progressive who tries to appear moderat to voters, than a moderate who tries to appear progressive.

Bush ran as fascist who looked like a moderate to voters. Clinton was a guy who shifted wealth to the middle class from the rich in Arkansas, and ran as a moderate. Kennedy ran to the right of Nixon, practically, on national security, but governed as a progressive. TR only got inot office because he nobody knew how crazy he was when Mark Hannah picked him as a VP for an imperialist fascist. And when it turned out TR was kind of a progressive, his party rejected him and he couldn't win as third party candidate. Pattern?

[w4rma]

42. Dean's strategy is precisely Bush's strategy from 2000

Pick up the activists and the liberals (in this case) during the primary. Then move rightward along the spectrum in policy emphasis until the November.

Same exact strategy but applied to the Democratic Party instead of the Republican Party.

[AP]

43. Bush started with "compassionate conservativism" to get the moderates

first. He didn't shoot for the right wingers until SC and the Bob Jones Uni. thing. And as soon as the right wing destroyed McCain, it was back to the moderation talk. In fact, in the debates, the only think I remember hearing him say that I think was out of synch with most Americans was when he said the global warming was not universally embraced as proven by science. I believe that it is, and that most Americans believe that it is. Nothing else that Bush said was really firm, or extremely overtly right wing (althoug I'm sure that smart people could see where he was going).

I think you have it reversed. But I could be wrong.

[w4rma]

44. Bush shored up the right-wing while

only the right-wing was paying attention. After his dirty tricks against McCain and Bob Jones University he then moved towards moderate rhetoric since he had the right-wing solidly behind him at that point.

That's been my understanding for years now.

[AP]

45. The first time I heard 'compassionate conservative" was '96

They were laying the groundwork for moderatioin for 4 years.

[w4rma]

46. Dean governed as a moderate in Vermont for 11 years (n/t)

[AP]

47. Bush was running for president from the minute he bought into

that baseball team. Everything he did was to create a persona that could be elected president. Looking moderate and abandoning the overt racism of the Atwater-managed Republican party was part of that plan. Dean started running for president by trying to sweep parts of his VT record under the rug and then casting himself as the liberal savior.

You can't deny that Dean rushed straight to the left.

And as far as the Dem-Rep parallel (that Deans doing the Dem version of Bush's "successful" campaign -- Bush actually governed as an extreme right winger. His public persona was moderation. The parallel would be if Dean governed as a progressive while appearing to be moderate. In fact governed VT as a moderate and presented himself as a moderate, then drue a line underneath that, and started running for president from the democratic wing of the democratic party (ie, the left). It's not the same strategy. And i'm not sure it's a strategy that has ever worked. But I'll keep watching this space. We'll see what happens.

[w4rma]

49. On that point Dean is obviously not at all similar, but

I'm not trying to deny that Dean shored up the left, first. It's exactly what Bush did. Bush rushed to the right and shored them up first while noone was paying attention. Then he moderated for the end of the primary and the general election.

[AP]

50. He needed a hit squad to take out McCain. He contained it to SC

The media refused to tell the rest of the country who or what Bob Jones was.

Remind me if I'm forgetting something, but I think Bush ran as a moderate all the way (except for the SC-McCain thing).

Dean is overtly trying to appeal to the left, and the covert message is that he's economically conservative, and leans towards helping out the businesses, and that he'll place progressive taxation lower on his list than balanced budgets, which the bond marketers, or whomever, prefers.

[w4rma]

63. Anyway. Bush ran to the right, then to the center

Dean is doing the same.

And, as far as I can tell, before Dean came onto the scene the other Democrats running didn't seem to think they had a chance against Bush. That doesn't help their credibility with me, that's for sure. But it sure does help Dean's credibilty with me.

[AP]

65. Name one thing Bush did other than going to Bob Jones Uni. (which

was AFTER IA and NH) that was designed to appeal to the far right of his party.

He didn't do a thing. He said that he was a compassionate (read, not a racist anti-poor) conservative, and he, according to Bill Clinton, ran on the meta-message that he was going to do all the same things the Democrats did but he was going to do with lower taxes and less government. Of course he was lying, but that's what he did.

[XanaDUer]

28. Actually, nicholas_j's

sources would be considered more valuable by a reseacher (and I was one), as they provide quoted information from people outside Dean's campaign who have been affected by the decisions Dean had made.

Information from an environmentalist group in VT that comes from an editorial is more valid information than that from any candidate's own press releases or interviews. ALL politicians are self-serving and will gild their own lillies.

Better to have information from people and groups unrelated or neutral about the campaigns and that only deal with issues.

The information he provides looks valid and is still more informative than self-sourcing information.

[w4rma]

37. Dean is a moderate. Most supporters know he governed as a moderate.

As I said in my previous post:
I (and most of Dean's supporters, IMHO) already know that Dean governed as a moderate Democrat in Vermont.

[Nicholas_J]

38. No, most do not know it

Even on DU, today, there are posts charaterizing Dean as a progressive from Dean supporters, and the BBC gave a breakdown of the candidates with Lieberman being a Conservative, Kerry the most liberal, and Dean a leftist.

The BBC is not stupid, and most of their information is culled from their own interviews with Dean who omits or includes information to suit his audience.

Most Dean supporters on DU know Dean is a moderate, but those who liste to his tailored speaches for particular audiences and decide they like him do not do so on FULL knowledge of Deans platform.

Nor does Dean fully inform them. Dean is know to have reveled in this type of campaigning as governor, telling separate groups exactly what they wanted to hear.

A groupt of three progresive Vermonter point it our here, and a number of other sources I have posted state the same thing:

Howard Dean: the Progressive Anti-War Candidate?
Some Vermonters Give Their Views
By DONNA BISTER, MARC ESTRIN
and RON JACOBS
(The Editorial Collective of the Old North End RAG)

Howard Dean the liberal, anti-war candidate? The laughter rings most loudly in Vermont.

I know that a lot of you are going to vote for Dean -- he talks a good game; he can be charismatic and charming. But I'm warning you. This man will tell you what you want to hear, or at least tell you something that has some little kernel of something that you can interpret as support for the things that are important to you. But when the time comes to stand up and lead on the issue, to take on the money interests and backsliders in his own party, that stiff little spine will turn into a slinky.

If you vote for him, it's your job to stand behind him with a poker and keep him headed in the right direction. Don't give him any honeymoon period, either--keep the pressure on from the second you drop that ballot in the box. The minute you relax, he's going to turn right back into what he really is...a privileged, arrogant, middle of the road republican. Put your political energy into getting some truly progressive folks into the House and Senate, and into State legislatures around the country so that there will be more pressure from more directions. We need to get together our sophisticated progressive thinkers to develop policy ideas in every area, so that we're ready with real, well-thought out counter-proposals for the incremental changes a Dean administration might put forth. If you feel you must, support Dean, do--but then go do the work necessary to make real change.

Ron Jacobs, Donna Bister and Marc Estrin comprise the OLD NORTH END RAG collective. The RAG is an agitational community newspaper serving the Old North End of Burlington, Vermont. This neighborhood is a primarily working class section of Vermonts largest city that has a history of political activism

http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html

These people are talking to a group of Dean supporters who actually think he is that Anti-War Progressive candidate.
And that wasnt last year, that was last week.

[w4rma]

41. Most supporters do know it (and I think we need to make sure others do to)

…
Of course last week's Dean hype managed to do both at once. It knocked him down by setting him up, in a way. No longer was the question "Is he too liberal to be electable?" Reporters belatedly scoured his record and discovered a fiscal conservative who put balanced budgets before social spending in Vermont, who opposes federal gun control legislation and backs the death penalty for certain crimes. Now the make-or-break question about Dean became: "Will liberals desert him when they figure out that he's actually a moderate?" Then came other pre-fab worries about the problems of sudden success: Had Dean peaked too soon? Could his fledgling campaign handle the attention? And OK, maybe he was moderate enough to be electable, but was he likable enough? Was his reputation for "straight talk" just a euphemism for brusque and arrogant?

Hanging out with the local Dean folks was my way of getting out of what his campaign dismisses as "the media echo chamber," and trying to figure out what's really going on. I've lived here almost 20 years. I know the San Francisco Dean phenomenon is not a microcosm of what it will take to get him elected; I saw the way the GOP smeared House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi -- and pushed her to the center some -- by calling her a "San Francisco Democrat" before she even took over the leadership post. I know we're DLC founder Al From's worst nightmare. But I also saw some intriguing things following Dean around San Francisco at the end of July, and talking to his supporters the week after he'd gone. The Bay Area Dean machine is attracting more than the usual suspects: It's neither the Greens nor the City Hall regulars; it's neither the moneyed elite nor the rabble; it's not just the young and the hip; it's not ponytailed '60s holdovers -- it's all of them, and then some. I met Republicans and Ross Perot voters who were supporting the antiwar candidate who promises to repeal Bush's tax cuts. And I met Dean himself, and watched two speeches. You can't get his charisma without seeing him in person.
…
The UFCW crowd seemed a lot like Donna Brazile: They were ready to love everybody. Only the leftier candidates -- Kucinich, Carol Moseley Braun, Gephardt and Dean -- showed up; Sharpton couldn't make it, but Kerry appeared by satellite, as befits his attempt to be a more centrist liberal. All of them got big cheers. These were the folks Al From tried to warn us about. But if Dean hadn't been red-baited by the DLC, you might well hear him as the moderate in the race. He criticized Kucinich and Moseley Braun's call for single-payer universal healthcare, the left's politically impossible dream, as well as Gephardt's expensive public-private hybrid. Kerry vied with Dean for the moderate mantle with his relatively modest healthcare plan, but overall Dean came off as the fiscal conservative in the bunch. Amazingly, he got the biggest hand from this union audience when he called George Bush a "borrow and spend, credit-card Republican" and promised to erase the deficit if he's elected.
…
One thing I don't worry about is that his lefty base doesn't know what he stands for, and will bolt when they realize he's a moderate. His base knows exactly how moderate he is. I interviewed dozens of his liberal devotees, and they all know the not-so-liberal aspects of his record. Someone at the Meetup lamented his staunch pro-Israel stance; several people I met said they differed with him on the death penalty. Brilliant says he has issues with Dean on all of his more conservative stands. "But he's not afraid to say what he thinks. Dean asks the fundamentally sound questions and does not have an ideological answer that trumps reason, as Bush does."
…
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/08/11/dean/

[AP]

23. Characterizing this stuff as anti-environmental is just scratching the...

...surface of what's wrong with it.

The real problem would be if all this revealed a pro-big business tilt by Dean (which would seem to be more in line with his background -- a product of wealthy NY suburbs and Wall Street).

For example, if you bring Walmart to your town to 'create jobs' what you're doing is bringing an employer which will under-price local businesses until they're gone, and then monopoly price afterwards. And are they passing their profits on to their employees? No they're passing out information on how to apply for food stamps and medicare at their employee orientations. And they're sapping wealth from the community by sending profits off to Arkansas, and by monopoly pricing, if they reach that stage.

Also, I'm shocked when I here his supporters speak proudly about how he turned a railway track into a foot path. You people don't even know what the real story is here. The government owned miles and miles of track at one time. The petroleum industry and the auto industry destroyed the rail industry. Governments truned over those rail lines for a pittance to companies with tight Bush connections, like CSX, who are now dividing up those rail right of ways and selling them in pieces so that they can never be joined up again, and they're tearing up tracks that were laid down for 6 cents per mile wages. We're never putting those rails back down again folks (at least until Republicans figure out a way to transfer a lot of social wealth into their pockets in the process), and you can thank people like Howard Dean for that shit. But, hey, maybe it created a few jobs.

[Nicholas_J]

24. Dean's decisions massively effected small busineses

And actually, lower end wage earners incomes declined whil Dena was governnor:

Vermont at a Glance

Many families in Vermont saw moderate improvements in their standard of living over the 1990s as the wages of median-wage workers grew. However, low-wage workers saw their wages decline over the 1990s, and median income stagnated. The poverty rate and income inequality in Vermont grew over the 1990s (see link below for table).

Median family income for four-person families
Middle-income families in Vermont have not fared particularly well during the current economic expansion. The incomes of families in the middle of the income distribution stagnated over the 1990s. Median family income for four-person families was $53,691 in 1998, compared to its 1989 level of $53,103 (in 1998 dollars).

Income inequality
Income inequality in Vermont grew over the 1990s. In the late 1990s, the income of the wealthiest 20% of families was 8.4 times that of the poorest 20% of families. By comparison, in the late 1980s, the wealthiest 20% of families had 7.4 times the income of the poorest 20%.

Poverty rate
The poverty rate in Vermont grew during the 1990s, from 8.1% in 1987-88 to 9.6% in 1997-98. However, the poverty rate in Vermont in the late 1990s remained below the national rate (13.0% in 1997-98).

Wages
In Vermont in the 1990s, the wages of low-wage workers declined, while the wages of similar workers grew at the national level. In 1999, the inflation-adjusted hourly wages of low-wage workers (workers at the 20th percentile) were 0.4% lower than they were in 1989, but due to wage gains in the 1980s they remained 10.5% higher than they were in 1979. The wages of workers in the middle of the wage distribution grew over both the 1980s and 1990s. The inflation-adjusted median wage (the wage of workers in the middle) in 1999 was 12.2% higher than it was in 1979


ACtually, the title should be DEAN'S Vermont at a glance.

[Nicholas_J]

31. Yup and while I support Kerry

Edwards has been most active in trying to upport small business development in his state.

I do not rule Edwards out as nominee as he is tracking EXACTLY the same way that Clinton did in the polls, and he is campaigniing EXACTLY the same way as Clinton did at this period. The same small meeting in libraries with small groups. My girlfriend sat in a room with Clinton at this period of time in Clinton's campaign and the group was small enough to sit around a table with Clinon and shoot the breeze with him. HE lost New Hampshire, Iowa, most of the super tuesday states and 4 months after March of 1992, HE was by far, ahead of everone and nominated.

I first became aware of Edwards in the attack of the Bush situation in Florida. Within minutes of hearing him I speak I said, someday this man WILL be president to the people I was sitting with. It may still hapen in 2004.

[MercutioATC]

48. He DOES list more links. Look at them, though...

They're mostly op/ed pieces or admitted Dean-bashing links (like the stover.net forum links he constantly posts). I'm sure I could find a bunch of biased weblinks and crown myself the "savior of the poor masses that have been duped by..." whomever....until I made a dozen or so of these posts and people realized what, exactly, my posts really were - somebody else's opinion - no more, no less.

Oh, by the way:

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/deanenviron.html

http://www.serconline.org/Wildlines/Wildlines_vol1/1.html (about halfway downthe page - piece about Vermont and electric cars)

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16059


a few non-Dean-paid-for sites that give a picture of where he stands on the environment.

[Nicholas_J]

61. Yeah

Dean put together a small group of people who were not crrently involved in environmetalism or enviromental law, and his opposnet. Progressive Anthony Pollina had a coalition of 40 major Vermont envoromental activists backing him up.

The concensus about Dean among most environmentalists is summed up by Vermont environmental attorneys like this one:

Stephanie Kaplan, a leading environmental lawyer and the former executive officer of Vermont's Environmental Board, has seen the regulatory process under Dean become so slanted against environmentalists and concerned citizens that she hardly thinks its worth putting up a fight anymore.

"Under Dean the Act 250 process (Vermont's primary development review law) and the Agency of Natural Resources (ANR) have lost their way," contends Kaplan. "Dean created the myth that environmental laws hurt the economy and set the tone to allow Act 250 and the ANR to simply be permit mills for developers."

Kaplan points to the "Environmental Board purge" in the mid-90s that allowed Dean to set the pro-development tone. In 1993, the Board issued an Act 250 permit to C&S Grocers in Brattleboro with conditions that restricted the diesel emissions from its heavy truck traffic. After C&S execs cried foul and threatened to move to New Hampshire, Dean broke gubernatorial precedent by publicly criticizing the Environmental Board for issuing what he called a "non-permit."

A year after receiving their public rebuke from Dean, four of the Environmental Board members ­ including the chair ­ were up for reappointment. With the not-so-subtle clues from Dean that he didn't approve of the Board's political direction, the Republican majority in the state senate shot down each and every one of their appointments, thus dramatically changing both the structure and climate of the Board


http://www.counterpunch.org/colby02222003.html

Again stating that Dena has gottentogetther a group of people to back his environemtal positio is no evidence that THEIR positions are favorable to the environment, or that they are actively involved in advocating for environmental issues....

You must have worn out your fingers searching for trhese. Most articles by ENVIRONMENTALISTS or enviromental organizations do not praise Dean at all, andhave a rather low opinion of him.

And it is the OPINION of expert in the area of enviromentalism, the lawyers, the working environmentaliusts, who's opinion matter much more than simply giving an article which states that Mr XYZ supports Deans environmental stance.

Provide THEIR opinions and reasons for supporting Dean from the stance of environmentalists and not out of politics, and then, you will make a point.


THis info is actually LESS accurate than the editorials and secondary sources as it does not indicate WHY thises people think what they think of Deans decisions.

And the Rutland Herald Dean brings in enormously polluting industries, but requires auto makers to up the number of electric cars that they sell in Vermont from 67 to 300.

Lets put a little maple syrup on that terrible environmental record Howie....


Electric car requirement short-circuited
December 20, 2001

By DAVID MACE Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — Legislators have rebuffed another effort by the Dean administration to change rules requiring the sale of electric cars in Vermont, setting up possible battles in court and in the Legislature over the issue.

In what both sides characterized as a power struggle between the legislative branch and the executive branch, lawmakers and the automobile industry were the winners as a joint legislative committee continued to register formal objection to the rules.

At issue is a change in regulations governing the sale of cleaner cars. Vermont’s rules are based on California’s, which are stricter than the federal requirements.

Vermont must update its rules to keep them consistent with California, which is relaxing its electric car requirements but is still making manufacturers sell some electric cars starting in about a year.

In Vermont, officials say that would be 67 electric cars. Under the current rules, manufacturers would need to sell almost 300.

to sell almost 300.

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/68805.html

Talk about SELF SOURCING.

Q&A: Howard Dean on the Environment

By Amanda Griscom, Grist Magazine
June 4, 2003

With George W. Bush boasting perhaps the worst environmental record of any president in U.S. history, it almost goes without saying that any contender in the 2004 election will appear to be an environmentalist nonpareil by comparison. Indeed, nearly every Democrat running for president is advertising himself as just that, and former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean is no exception. On April 22, Earth Day 2003, Dean posted a message on his website that read, "As an outdoorsman, I have experienced the incredible power of the natural world. I am horrified by what the Bush administration is doing to our land, our air, and our water. The United States must play a leading role in combating climate change and the ongoing loss of the world's diversity and natural heritage."

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16059

An interview with Dean lying about his record is what you are citing as an unbiased source for Deans enviromental record.

What acerbic irony.

[renie408]

53. Renie is relatively liberal, I think

And your points scare the shit out of me. BUT...Bush scares me more. So...I think I am back to supporting the guy I think is most electable until after primary time and then supporting whoever gets nominated and praying like hell they don't have too many holes in them.
My main fear is that we will nominate somebody that can too easily be ripped apart by the Bush campaign machine. I KNOW that is not idealistic enough for a lot of people. I KNOW I should be supporting the candidate who most closely represents my thoughts on matters. From what I have read so far, I think that would be Kucinich, BTW. But (and PLEASE Kucinich people, don't kill me for this) I just don't think he can win in a general election. As much as I like Kucinich, I think Edwards is a more viable national candidate. Now, that is probably a horrible and dishonorable way to choose a candidate, but I can live with Edwards in the places where he doesn't exactly match how I think and I actually admire many of his positions and what he represents. OVER ALL, when I take everything into account that I have learned so far, I still find Edwards my most viable candidate. I also trust him. And no matter how I try, I can't trust Dean or Lieberman. There is just too much contradictory stuff floating around about Dean and Lieberman seems like a sellout to me. Kerry seems to be a good guy, but TO ME (and that does not mean that anybody else has to feel this way) he is uninspiring and I don't like the way he is now trying to sugarcoat his voting for the Iraq authorization. At least Edwards says "I voted for it and I believed I was doing the right thing and that's that. We are there now and let's try to manage this peace better." I heard Kerry make a statement that he voted for 'the use of force as a threat'. That sounded like hedging to me. Kucinich is a wonderful man, but I honestly think he would be chewed up and spit out in a general election. I don't know enough about Gephardt and can't get excited about what I do know. Braun and Sharpton just don't seem like 'real' candidates to me (this is MY perception. I know there are people who support them passionately and that's fine) and for all I know, Graham has left the country he is keeping such a low profile. If Clark declares at this point, he has dragged it all out for so long that he has annoyed me. Now he just seems coy to me. What is all that crap about 'finally' deciding to 'admit' that he is a Democrat?

SOOOO...for now I am sticking with Edwards. NOT because my decision is set in stone or because I feel that I cannot support any of the other candidates or that they are particularly 'bad' candidates. From everything that I have learned, I feel that I could support any of them, if not with a whole heart, at least with a clear conscience. And when the time comes, I will. I am supporting Edwards because he has a combination of stances that I find either acceptable or that I support, trustworthiness and electablity. Again, if Dean gets the nomination, I will not be in any kind of moral quandary over voting for him. I find much to admire in him. Same thing with Kerry or Kucinich. I think Lieberman is creepy, but I would rather have him than Bush.

[Nicholas_J]

60. I absolute think edwards is great

as well as kucinich.

I support Kerry as a candidate who is closest to both, and is has the MOST liberal record of members of the senate, accrding to voting record.

I would dance in the streets if either Edwards or Kucinich got the nomination, and I absolutely am not one of those who rules out Edwards coming out from behind.

As a matter of fact, when Edwards was furious about Dean lying about his stance on Iraq in San Francisco, it was Kerry who backed him up and told him to stay calm, that Deans errors would soon turn against him in the media. Kerry and Edwards are very close friend in the Senate.

When I first became aware of Edwards in November or 2000, when he spoke up in the senate againt the election fraud in Florida, my first thoughts were that this guy is going to definitely be president some day. He is not the youngster he is being made out to be, and not much less experienced than Dean. As a matter of fact given the nature of running the U.S. senate, as opposed to being the governor of a state with a smaller population than several thousand U.S. cities. I would say his experience is considerably greater. WHich is why I have always preferred senators or congressmen or peopoe with at least SOME legislative experience for the Presidency. They at least have some experience in playing well with others.

[w4rma]

9. More: trade (pro-fair trade), health care, social security, Iraq war

trade (pro-fair trade)
…
While U.S. unemployment improved in June, Dean said it’s still at a nine-year high and ignores the underemployed, which he pegged at 6 percent.

“These are people who had $50,000 good jobs and now they are making $25,000 or $30,000, and they have two of them, in some cases,” Dean said. “I am tired of having an economy where our best jobs are shifted elsewhere in the world.’’

Dean fans made up a thick portion of the crowd, often turning Dean’s 25-minute stump speech into a rally of revival proportions with interrupted calls of “amen’’ and “yes, yes.’’
…
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/Main.asp?SectionID=25&SubSectionID=377&ArticleID=85948
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=11856&mesg_id=11856
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=124665&mesg_id=124665

…
HOWARD DEAN: No. What I said-- Well, I'll tell you what I said in a minute. But I'll follow my train of thought here, most briefly. Free trade has benefited Vermont a great deal. Here's the problem with free trade, and here's why I support fair trade, and why I want to change all our trade agreements to include human rights with trade, as Jimmy Carter included human rights with foreign policy. I still think NAFTA was a good thing. I think the president did the right thing. But the problem now is that, 10 years into NAFTA, here's what we've done. We have shipped a lot of our industrial capacity to other countries. And the ownership pattern, and the ratio of reward between capital and labor in those other countries is what it was 100 years ago in this country.

So the reason for NAFTA is not just trade. It's defense and foreign policy. That is, a middle class country where women fully participate in the economic and political decision making of that country is a country that doesn't harbor groups like Al-Qaeda, and it's a country that does not go to war. So that's in our intersect. That's why trade is really in our long term interest. What we've done so far in NAFTA is we've transferred industrial capacity, but we haven't transferred any of the elements that are needed to make a middle class. The truth is, the trade union movement in this country built America, not literally-- Well, they did do it literally with the Brooklyn Bridge and the Empire State Building, and things like that. But they built America because they allowed people who worked in factories and mines to become middle class people. And America was the strongest country on earth, and still is, because we have the largest middle class on earth, with democratic ideals. That is, working people in this country, by and large, feel that this is their country, and they have a piece of the pie, and it matters what they think.

Now, if you want trade to succeed, ultimately, we're going to have to create a climate in other countries that are beneficiaries of NAFTA where they can create a middle class with democratic ideals. That means we should not have any free trade agreements, and we should go back and tell the WTO that "you need also to include environmental standards and labor standards." Here's why. Today, if you run a factory in Iowa-- Let's suppose you spend a million dollars a year disposing of all the waste products that come out that are toxic. You can go to another country and dump all that stuff in the river and on the ground. So America, because we have environmental standards, and we're willing to trade, straight out, free trade, with countries that it's cheaper by a million dollars, before you even get to wages, to do business there, I think that's a big problem. We're essentially saying, "Our environmental laws are strict. It's cheaper for you to go into business someplace lese. Go ahead." That's the wrong thing to do.

The same with labor standards. I don't know why we should be shipping our jobs offshore when kids can work 12 hours a day, seven days a week, for a small amount of wages. And isn't that what America fought against 100 years go? Wasn't that the victory of the trade union movement? So it seems to me that my position makes sense. We've gone through 10 years of free trade. We've gotten to a position where we now need to change our trade agreements.
…
HOWARD DEAN: What I would say is, we've gone the first mile. The first decade has worked, for exactly the reasons you say. I don't disagree with the premise of the free traders. I had this discussion with Bob Rubin, and I said, "Here's the problem. We need an emerging middle class in these countries, and we're not getting one. So now is the time to have labor and environmental standards attached to trade agreements." He said, "You're totally wrong. I can't disagree with you more." I said, "How would you address the problem?" I haven't heard back. You have to deal with this problem. It's a serious problem.

JOE KLEIN: What if they say no?

HOWARD DEAN: Then I'd say, "Fine, that's the end of free trade."

JOE KLEIN: What do you mean, that's the end of free trade? Then we slap tariffs on these countries?

HOWARD DEAN: Yes.

JOE KLEIN: So you'd be in favor of tariffs at that point.

HOWARD DEAN: If necessary. Look, Jimmy Carter did this in foreign policy. If you can't get people to observe human rights, and say that we're going to accept products from countries that have kids working no overtime, no time and a half, no reasonable safety precautions-- I don't think we ought to be buying those kinds of products in this country. We're enabling that to happen. I'm serious.
…
http://www.jfklibrary.org/forum_dean.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=46131&mesg_id=46131&page=

health care
…
For a year now, I have been traveling this country advocating a repeal of Bush's tax cuts so that we can provide universal healthcare and restore fiscal discipline. Many have questioned the political wisdom of challenging the president on politically popular tax cuts.

I believe, however, that given a choice between having health insurance or keeping all of the Bush's tax cuts in place, most Americans will choose health insurance. My plan will cost $88.3 billion -- less than half of the president's tax cut -- with money left over to pay down the deficits run up by this administration.

My plan consists of four major components.

First, and most important, in order to extend health coverage to every uninsured child and young adult up to age 25, we'll redefine and expand two essential federal and state programs -- Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program. Right now, they only offer coverage to children from lower-income families. Under my plan, we cover all kids and young adults up to age 25 -- middle income as well as lower income. This aspect of my plan will give 11.5 million more kids and young adults access to the healthcare they need.

Second, we'll give a leg up to working families struggling to afford health insurance. Adults earning up to 185% of the poverty level -- $16,613 -- will be eligible for coverage through the already existing Children Health Insurance Program. By doing this, an additional 11.8 million people will have access to the care they need.

Many working families have incomes that put them beyond the help offered by government programs. But this doesn't mean they have viable options for healthcare. We'll establish an affordable health insurance plan people can buy into, providing coverage nearly identical to what members of Congress and federal employees receive.

To cushion the costs, we'll also offer a significant tax credit to those with high premium costs. By offering this help, another 5.5 million adults will have access to care.

Third, we need to recognize that one key to a healthy America is making healthcare affordable to small businesses.We shouldn't turn our back on the employer-based system we have now, but neither should we simply throw money at it. We need to modernize the system so employers will have an option beyond passing rising costs on to workers or bailing out of the system entirely. Fortunately, we have a model of efficient, affordable and user-friendly healthcare coverage: the federal employee health system.

With the plan I've put forth to the American people, we'll organize a system nearly identical to the one federal workers and members of Congress enjoy. And we'll enable all employers with less than 50 workers to join it at rates lower than are currently available to these companies -- provided they insure their work force. I'll also offer employers a deal: The federal government will pick up 70% of COBRA premiums for employees transitioning out of their jobs, but we'll expect employers to pay the cost of extending coverage for an additional two months. These two months are often the difference between workers finding the health coverage they need, or joining the ranks of the uninsured.

Finally, to ensure that the maximum number of American men, women and children have access to healthcare, we must address corporate responsibility. There are many corporations that could provide healthcare to their employees but choose not to. The final element of this plan is a clear, strong message to corporate America that providing health coverage is fundamental to being a good corporate citizen. I look at business tax deductions as part of a compact between American taxpayers and corporate America. We give businesses certain benefits, and expect them to live up to certain responsibilities.
…
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_health

The plan will cost an estimated, "$88.3 billion". This is paid for from some of the money saved by repealing Bush's tax cuts.

The Dean proposal expands Medicaid and CHIP to ages 25 and under. CHIP is expanded to adults earning up to "185% of the poverty level" (currently, $16,613).

For the "capitalist" half of the Dean plan: Folks with high health premium costs recived "a significant tax credit" to cushion the costs. The current "employer-based system" in use now will be modernized by upgrading it to the same healthcare coverage that "federal workers and members of Congress" have available to them.

Small buisnesses of less than 50 workers get lower rates than their larger competitors. Employers pick up the tab for 2 months in between jobs, but the costs of the COBRA premiums for those 2 months are subsidized, at 70%, by the federal government for employers. Corporations will receive "business tax deductions" as an incentive for supplying health care to their employees.

social security
…
The actions of this President and this administration are threatening the soundness of our Social Security system and of our private pension systems as well. By creating the largest deficits in history and adding irresponsibly to the federal debt, he has given Americans worried about their retirement even more cause for concern.

As President, I will be committed to preserving the integrity and long-term stability of the Social Security Trust Fund. I will oppose privatizing the Social Security System. And I will pursue a responsible economic agenda, and under my plan we will never have to consider raising the retirement age.

The long-term future of Social Security and financial security for all of us in our retirement years depends on ensuring a healthy rate of economic growth over the next several decades. Even a modest increase in long-term growth rates will ease the burden on the Social Security Trust Fund. If we do need to bring more money into Social Security, then I'm prepared to look at reasonable options for expanding the ceiling on payroll taxes.

The best guarantee for our Social Security, therefore, is an economic plan with three basic principles:

First, we must create economic growth and jobs new jobs, more jobs, and better jobs for Americans;

Second, we must return to fiscal sanity, for the sake of future generations, yes but also for the sake of our very national security. We cannot be a world-class country if we are the world's largest debtor;

Finally, we must reform our tax system. When I am President, I will work to repeal the top heavy Bush tax cuts, and replace them with a system that is fairer, and simpler, and places less of a burden on working Americans who live off their paychecks.
…
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7343

Iraq war
Iraq Truth Center
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_foreign_iraq

Dean's supporters know where Dean stands on the issues
…
Of course last week's Dean hype managed to do both at once. It knocked him down by setting him up, in a way. No longer was the question "Is he too liberal to be electable?" Reporters belatedly scoured his record and discovered a fiscal conservative who put balanced budgets before social spending in Vermont, who opposes federal gun control legislation and backs the death penalty for certain crimes. Now the make-or-break question about Dean became: "Will liberals desert him when they figure out that he's actually a moderate?" Then came other pre-fab worries about the problems of sudden success: Had Dean peaked too soon? Could his fledgling campaign handle the attention? And OK, maybe he was moderate enough to be electable, but was he likable enough? Was his reputation for "straight talk" just a euphemism for brusque and arrogant?

Hanging out with the local Dean folks was my way of getting out of what his campaign dismisses as "the media echo chamber," and trying to figure out what's really going on. I've lived here almost 20 years. I know the San Francisco Dean phenomenon is not a microcosm of what it will take to get him elected; I saw the way the GOP smeared House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi -- and pushed her to the center some -- by calling her a "San Francisco Democrat" before she even took over the leadership post. I know we're DLC founder Al From's worst nightmare. But I also saw some intriguing things following Dean around San Francisco at the end of July, and talking to his supporters the week after he'd gone. The Bay Area Dean machine is attracting more than the usual suspects: It's neither the Greens nor the City Hall regulars; it's neither the moneyed elite nor the rabble; it's not just the young and the hip; it's not ponytailed '60s holdovers -- it's all of them, and then some. I met Republicans and Ross Perot voters who were supporting the antiwar candidate who promises to repeal Bush's tax cuts. And I met Dean himself, and watched two speeches. You can't get his charisma without seeing him in person.
…
The UFCW crowd seemed a lot like Donna Brazile: They were ready to love everybody. Only the leftier candidates -- Kucinich, Carol Moseley Braun, Gephardt and Dean -- showed up; Sharpton couldn't make it, but Kerry appeared by satellite, as befits his attempt to be a more centrist liberal. All of them got big cheers. These were the folks Al From tried to warn us about. But if Dean hadn't been red-baited by the DLC, you might well hear him as the moderate in the race. He criticized Kucinich and Moseley Braun's call for single-payer universal healthcare, the left's politically impossible dream, as well as Gephardt's expensive public-private hybrid. Kerry vied with Dean for the moderate mantle with his relatively modest healthcare plan, but overall Dean came off as the fiscal conservative in the bunch. Amazingly, he got the biggest hand from this union audience when he called George Bush a "borrow and spend, credit-card Republican" and promised to erase the deficit if he's elected.
…
One thing I don't worry about is that his lefty base doesn't know what he stands for, and will bolt when they realize he's a moderate. His base knows exactly how moderate he is. I interviewed dozens of his liberal devotees, and they all know the not-so-liberal aspects of his record. Someone at the Meetup lamented his staunch pro-Israel stance; several people I met said they differed with him on the death penalty. Brilliant says he has issues with Dean on all of his more conservative stands. "But he's not afraid to say what he thinks. Dean asks the fundamentally sound questions and does not have an ideological answer that trumps reason, as Bush does."
…
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/08/11/dean/

Dean / Clark ?
What started as a point-by-point review of his economic and health care policies turned quickly into his dissertation on foreign affairs in Cuba, Saudi Arabia, North Korea and Iraq. Dean has been getting tutored on foreign policy by numerous experts, including retired Marine Gen. Joseph P. Hoar. He has also had several private conversations with retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark, the former NATO commander who some Democrats see as an attractive running mate for Dean if Clark does not join the race himself.
…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34389-2003Aug22.html

Dean launches 'Sleepless Summer Tour'
Would consider Wesley Clark as running mate
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Dean-Clark in 2004?

On Sunday, Dean told CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer" that -- if nominated by his party -- he would consider tapping retired U.S. Army Gen. Wesley Clark as a vice presidential running mate.

"Yes," Dean said when asked whether he would consider asking the former NATO supreme commander to join his ticket.

"There would be a great many people, of course, that would be considered as a potential running mate. And I must say, I think it's much too early to discuss potential running mates. I mean, we're five months from the time the first official vote and delegate selection takes place.

"So I find it very premature. But I think Wes Clark, he's somebody I keep in close touch with. He's a terrific person, very bright, very capable, very thoughtful. Our views coincide on a number of matters, and he is -- I certainly can't say enough good things about him. It would be tough to run against him."

Clark, a former CNN military analyst, said Sunday on CBS' "Face the Nation" he would make a decision on whether to run for president "in the next week or two."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/24/dean/index.html

[Egnever]

11. You rock thanks for that!

:yourock:

Add another bookmark to my list!

[KaraokeKarlton]

55. renie...I'm a Vermonter

There is someone on this thread who likes to spin many yarns about my state. That individual does not live here and has probably never even been here. I have lived in 4 Vermont towns. I came to Vermont to get away from an abusive marriage. I had nothing. No money, no home, no job and got here with my 3 kids and only what I could carry. Vermont's social programs are top notch. Howard Dean was the governor when I got here. The state had me in an apartment with furniture and household supplies in less than 2 weeks. They paid for a motel room for my kids an I. My kids were young and I couldn't get a job that paid enough for childcare. The old welfare system was a trap that made it impossible for anyone in my position to go to work and survive. As soon as you got a job you lost help. Howard Dean led the nation in welfare reform. What he did was a Godsend to single mothers like myself. Finally, the system helped address the many barriers people in that kind of situation find themselves in. I got help with transportation, childcare, college courses, clothing for school and work. Because of those changes I was able to get off assistance. Now I am doing really well for myself. Anyonw who tells you that Vermont doesn't take care of it's poor, elderly and disabled are lying to you. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, anyone who gets help has some responsibilities...but they aren't repressive at all...they help people rise above their situations and improve themselves. If someone can't work because they are unable to, they don't have to. They can do other things instead...like education, and if things are so bad they are homebound, they will either have someone come to you to work with you, or you can get a waiver, which will be given when there's a good reason. The disabled automatically qualify for assistance unless they are in a financial situation where they don't need it. The state bends over backwards to try to keep people in their homes and out of nursing homes and long term care facilities. Dean has repeatedly testified to Congress in support of moving away from nursing homes and towards keeping people at home with support services provided to them. Although Dean is not a liberal, he genuinely cares about people and has worked very hard to make things better for people who struggle. Anyone who tells you differently is full of shit.

[renie408]

56. I believe you

And I don't think that Dean is the devil incarnate or even half of the things that I read about him. BUT...the constant barrage of contradictory information tends to make anyone not already sold on Dean a little trepidatious. Even if you cut everything in half as a rule of thumb (which I usually do), it still appears that Dr. Dean is inclined to take positions which are convenient at the time, but then he has to backtrack. This could simply be the legitmate evolution of his opinions as time goes by and more information becomes available to him. But it still leaves a great deal of room for him to be attacked and that worries me.

[KaraokeKarlton]

57. He only sometimes does what's convenient, it depends on the issue

For instance, with civil unions...convenient for him would have been to not sign it at all. He didn't have to sign it. He won't bargain on civil and human rights, period. When it comes to compromising on money and less important things, he sometimes goes for convenience if it means progress. Howard Dean tries not to say too much about something unless he is well informed. This is why you hear him sometimes come off as if he's changed his stand on something. As he gets information, he is going to adjust certain opinions appropriately. He'd make a great president.