Question about Kucinich

[leftist_rebel1569]

What's so wrong with him? I keep hearing about how the Kucinich people are always being attacked supporters of other candidates. not pointing out anyone in particular or saying you do because you support some candidate...I'm just curious to know why he's getting flamed all the time. Also, please don't say that Kucinich supporters attack your candidate in this thread...first of all, i'm ASKING A QUESTION that has nothing to do with that, and I really don't care who's flaming who. So please, just answer my question. Post a thread of your own if you must...

Why is Kucinich so bad?

(BTW, I'm neutral on Kucinich)

[JohnKleeb]

1. thank you much

I am supporting Kucinich because of the issues important to me and I in some ways identify with him.

[leftist_rebel1569]

2. well, it kinda doesn't answer my question,

but you're welcome, buddy! :hi:

[JohnKleeb]

3. well you know how I feel about him

[lams712]

57. Dennis Kucinich is my FIRST choice!!!

I have been away from DU since April, and I just wanted to see what was up. Dennis Kucinich is a TRUE progressive and I agree with him nearly 100%. I know early on many "progressives" didn't care for his "wishy-washy" abortion stance, and that might be one reason why more people on the left aren't supporting him. Also, he has been virtually ignored by the media, who believe that Howard Dean is the only progressive in the race.

[JohnKleeb]

58. Hi Lams I didnt know you too well before but welcome aboard

How was your summer? You are so right about the media. I dont know about the abortion stance could be could not be. See you around if you plan to stay on.

[DuctapeFatwa]

4. Well, he isn't a criminal, a sleazeball, and he's not a war mongerer

Thus he is neither qualified or suitable for American politics and it is a mystery to me how in the hell he ever got to Congress.

[JohnKleeb]

5. heh lol

How he got elected to congress, hes the peoples candiate and he stands up for them.

[dpbrown]

6. People say Dennis is bad for several reasons

1. They say he flip-flopped on abortion (it's really more complicated than that - he's been "full safety net" and full sex ed, and full contraception availability but voted for some restrictions that are allowed under Roe, and to cut some international family planning funding and against abortions at overseas military hospitals - and he's since moved further towards the "choice" positions).

2. They say his supporters are overzealous (generally this comes from supporters of candidates who are weaker on the issues than Dennis, although some Dennis supporters are overzealous - it's hard not to be when you've got a candidate like Dennis).

3. They say he bankrupted Cleveland (what really happened is the banks refused to "roll over" the debt when Dennis followed through on not selling off the municipal power utility - he was later commended by the City of Cleveland for saving it, and elected to the Ohio State Senate and the US House partially on the basis of his vindication).

4. They say he's "unelectable" (ignoring that Bush's numbers are way below 50%, he's losing to "unnamed Democrat", and that Dennis takes 50% of the Republican vote in his district).

5. They say his plans will never pass and that he's too liberal (betraying the lowered expectations that have been beat into our heads after 15 years of Reagan, Bush, and Bush, and the warnings of other candidates to essentially "not get our hopes up").

There may be other reasons, and some people will probably post some.

But:

Dennis has a better position on Universal Single Payer Health Care.
Dennis has a better position on helping farmers.
Dennis has a better position on getting out of Iraq.
Dennis has a better position on banning the death penalty.
Dennis has a better position on stopping NAFTA and the WTO from robbing us of jobs.
Dennis has a better position on saying no to the inevitability of violence in society.
Dennis has a better position on making the Pentagon accountable to taxpayers.

Kucinich is the candidate who challenges us not to settle. There will be plenty of time to settle for less after the election. We don't need a "tinkerer" who doesn't want to change things. We need someone who is ready to clean the White House of trickle-down deregulation, corrupt multinational pirates, and fundamentalist zealots. We need someone who can help us envision a post-BFEE world. We need Dennis Kucinich.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

P.S. It was nice talking with you at the Fair.

[dpbrown]

17. See #7 and #15 for examples of "4" with a little "5" thrown in

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with something other than what's in my list of five above. So far, same old, same old.

[dpbrown]

20. See #16 for an example of "1"

Not well-formed, but making the overall point.

[leftist_rebel1569]

38. nice meeting you too!

:hi:

hmm...it's different posting to a response of yours, now that i've met you. It's kinda cool...

[dpbrown]

46. Hope to see you at the next MN DU get-together

Look for Myrna Minx to set something up in Sep. or Oct.

:hi:

[leftist_rebel1569]

93. well...

if it's that early, I suppose I can start asking my parents NOW and I might be able to go...

If it's in April or later...then I could prolly make it no problem because then I would have my license...:)

[HPLeft]

61. Remember McGovern?

People say that running Dean would be like running McGovern, but I don't agree. I think Dean could be a Jimmy Carter-like candidate.

Kucinich would be McGovern. He's way out in front of consensus opinion on Iraq, and has IMHO almost no chance of bringing a post 9/11 America along with him, especially in the face of the Bush spin machine. And when he talks about further cutting the military budget from where it is today (which is considerable smaller than in 1991), he is clearly not paying close attention to the world situation.

Only a candidate who is convincing in the role of Commander-in-Chief is winning the 2004 election.

[leftist_rebel1569]

92. do you have the numbers

to back the military budget numbers up, by any chance?

I just want to see what the difference was in the spending, i'm curious...

[Egnever]

7. Kucinich isnt so bad

In fact a lot of kucinichs views are great.

I think kucniches biggest problem is the fact that he is so far left. I personally dont think far left anything will win in america right now when it becomes general election time. America in general right now is just way too far right to make such a huge swing. I think denis could do well following a democratic presidency but right now I just dont think he can do it in the curent environment.

Things that bother me alot about denis is his aparent freewheeling aproach to executive orders. I like the idea that the president and congress have to work together to get things done. Checks and balances are important to me. Denis's answer to a lot of things seem to be Executive orders to make them hapen and that worries me.

The department of peace is another place where i just dont get it.If the administration is comited to peace then its kinda useless in my opinion.

Theres more, My intent here isnt to bash kucinich I like kucinich a lot actually he is in my top three of who I would like to see as president out of our current bunch. But I dont seem him as having a chance in the general. I really hope he doesnt give up his seat in order to persue the presidency I think it would be a huge loss.

[diamondsoul]

12. Can't keep myself from responding. :)

"I personally dont think far left anything will win in america right now when it becomes general election time. America in general right now is just way too far right to make such a huge swing."

I think you're utterly WRONG about this. I believe that because of the people I've been talking with for the past several months about Kucinich and the entire situation. People are starving for radical change! It isn't that they are "too far right" it's that they're too well-conditioned to strive for less.

No flame or slam meant because certainly there are moderate people who will prefer Dean and a few very odd people who even still support Bush, however, based on my personal experience in telling people about Kucinich's platform is that they are suddenly energized and genuinely excited to find a candidate who supports the radical changes they really want and are afraid to hope or ask for.(holy crap that's a helluva run-on sentence, eh?!)

Now I'm going to say someting that isn't meant as flame-bait but just might incite it- I don't think Dean's campaign is reaching the people I'm speaking of in this post, and I sincerely doubt that they will. The Kucinich campaign will because his nomination and eventual election hinges on it. And no, I won't define those people so that you all can get after that bloc of voters, either. :evilgrin:

[Egnever]

15. understood

This part is what i am talking about

"I don't think Dean's campaign is reaching the people I'm speaking of in this post"

Dean is not a liberal or far left candidate. He will never be thier chosen one. Kucicnich definately is.

However that goes to the whole problem I see with kucinich. In order to win you need the most votes period. Not the most liberal/left wing votes. There are far more central or even right wing leaning people voting than liberal people. Were America truely liberal Kucinich would win in a landslide. Thing is unfortunately it isnt. In fact there is a lot of direct hatred for anything liberal in america. This is why he would instead loose in a land slide IMHO.

Again I am not trying to bash Kucinich. I think he is a geat candidate I love that he is pushing iberal ideas and pushing them hard. I just dont think america as a whole is ready for that.

I was just speaking to a friend today on the phone from high school. He is a republican .... ewwww. I was telling him about how i was working for deans campaign(by going to meetings writing emails etc... not a paid supporter) and he said "your suporting that clown huh?" I said yes and went on to explaining why in ways that would apeal to him. Because he suports state rights on gun controll because he doesnt oppose the death penalty in child rape and terorist cases.because he balances the budget ( this guy lives in CA so this was a zinger for him :P ). His reply was yea i agree with all that but i hate these liberal bastards with a passion. I told him dean is hardly a liberal and he said hmmm well ill have to look at him more closely.

Now My point here is just to give evidence that a lot of america is on a heavily anti liberal crusade. I atribute it to the mass media blitz from fox and friends and all thier cohorts. This will take time to change it wont hapen over night nor will it hapen by the 2004 election. Hell you can hardly find a liberal voice on many airwaves accross the country. Till the people start hearing the good side from many sources Denis has no shot IMHO

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. People have been conditioned to hate "liberals"

without even understanding what "liberal" or "left" means.

The freeper/Fox stereotype is someone who wants to give the U.S. to Osama bin Laden and who wants to hold public orgies on the White House lawn and wants to tax the middle class at 75% to give to crackhead welfare mothers (racist codeword). in other words, someone who, as the stereotype says, is "soft on defense" and "against traditional values" and "a soft-headed tax and spend liberal."

But DK is not a stereotypical liberal. He's not "soft on defense"--he's smart on defense and wants to cut the waste out of the Pentagon (hello? Missing a trillion dollars? What do you want to bet it went into either black ops or kickbacks to the well-connected?) and concentrate on the real needs of the country and the military personnel rather than on the wish lists of the major contractors.

While he's for gay rights and other things that give freepers apoplexy, he's also someone who came to the pro-choice position late, as a gradual shift, and after much thought. (Even then, his anti-choice position was part of the liberal Catholic "seamless pro-life position," that also condemns war and capital punishment, not the Victorian hatred of female sexuality that drives the abortion doctor killers.)

As for the rest, no one else is even talking about universal health care that doesn't involve the greedy, corrupt, overpaid insurance company vultures (sorry if I sound bitter, but when you're a healthy self-employed person who is having a hell of time finding affordable health insurance that might actually provide some benefits for your three-figure monthly premium, you quickly become bitter), saving Social Security without privatizing it or cutting benefits, or killing two birds with one stone by putting the unemployed back to work rebuilding the nation's infrastructure.

These ideas are so foreign to conventional political discourse that I'd bet the typical voter wouldn't even know enough to classify them as "far left."

[JohnKleeb]

37. that liberal catholic view is shared by my grandparents

[Egnever]

69. Agree with a lot of what you say

Denis has some great ideas I am not debating that at all. Unfortunately most of america wont pay close enough attention to hear them.

You list hes not soft on defense wich I agree with bottom line denis isnt really soft on defense but tough on defense spending. However the soundbite the sheeple will have pounded into thier head is that he wants to cut defense spending. This will send the freeper leaners into a frenzy of liberal this liberal that and denis will be labeled as he allready is as soft on defense even though he really isnt I dont think. His whole peace department thing doesnt help to make the point that hes not soft on defense though.

Health care again is another issue where i think hes got great ideas but again america isnt ready for them yet I dont think. I understand that he says that we can do his plan using mostly the money we allready spend. and that it will get the money out of the special interests hands. But thats part of the problem with his plan and why it wouldnt pass. The special interests pharmacutical companies etc. own our government right now. Till we get congress back frimly in our hands a single payer plan just wont float. Wich means we end up with nothing again. We need to take our country back first.

I honestly thing Civil unions time has come in america. I dont think this will actually hurt any of our candidates to any noticable extent. I may be way off base on this and it may be wishfull thinking. But I think many in america either have a family member who is openly gay or know someone who is. I dont think they want people to be denied hospital visitation or any of the other rights that married people or even blood relatives have. I do however think that the churches will rebell still at this point at calling it marriage. If the churches rebell we loose.

Again I think deniss is a great candidate I love a lot of what he has to say. I just dont think america is ready for him right now for president.

[diamondsoul]

55. Eg, you're so cool! I love posting with you. :)

I think a lot of people are underestimating Kucinich's support base, and the people I'm speaking of. There are more of us *invisible people* than most of us realize. You won't see them online because they don't care enough to be online, assuming they can even afford it.

You won't get an accurate count of Kucinich's support base by polling registered voters with phones or other technology because they either don't have the time or don't have the money to use it. IOW, I honestly believe Kucinich's support is alot bigger than most realize. I believe this country will be shocked when the truth of his support base finally comes to light.

Not to make a purposeful slam against Dr. Dean because I think he means well for everyone, but we're still invisible to him. I want a guy who sees us invisible people as important. That's not Dean, that's Kucinich, and we invisible people are going to come out on his side enmasse and shock a lot of people.

Still you are one of my favorite people here, agree or disagereee onanything else. Thanks much for being a reasonable person to talk about the issues with.

[Egnever]

65. Wow!

I agree I think theres a tremendous amount of suport for Denis. There are many people that align with him perfectly. I think he fits a certain nich like a well worn pair of jeans. Perfectly!

I am certainly not trying to bash him in any way. I disagree with him in a lot of places but I see his viewpoint clearly even when I dissagree and I think it reasonates with many people many many people.

Howerver it is the far left voice of the democratic party. I think its a great voice it just cant win right now as I see it in the current climate in america that is all.

Theres just too much media stacked against a true liberal at the present time. Liberal is considered a dirty word by many in America. They have been taught well over the past few years by people like limbaugh hanity savidge etc.... Hell these guys dont even use the word democrat anymore its all liberal this liberal that blah blah blah. The sheeple in america have been trained to hear liberal and go UGH!!!! This will take time to overcome is all I am saying and Denis is a little early is all. If bush gets another four years in office the time for denis on the other hand would be ripe. The country would be so screwed up by that time the people would all be looking for a radical change and dennis would clearly offer that. Right now the country is almost evenly split.

Thank you for the kind words I try to be fair but I get pissed and spout off with the best of em.

[dpbrown]

56. It's "conservative" to expect accountability from the Pentagon

I think there is more than one way to look at the positions Kucinich has taken.

For example:

1. It's fiscally conservative to expect that the Pentagon do away with programs and weapons that no one wants (except defense contractors), and be able to fulfill its responsibility under the Chief Financial Officers Act of 1990 to certify that it has spent money Congress gave it in the way Congress mandated (it has been unable to do so for the past 14 years).

2. It's fiscally conservative to come up with a plan for using the saved money culled from eliminating the multiple ponzi schemes of private health insurance, and the combined mountains of administrative cost, to fund a single-payer universal health care system without raising taxes, or relying on "reallocated" tax money saved by repealing Bush's tax cuts (and then not funding whatever programs that money used to go for).

3. It's "supporting small business" to empower small farmers to create their own energy sources, allowing them to get off the "energy grid" if they'd like to, and to empower small farmers to become more powerful "player" in the agribusiness distribution business.

Those are just three examples I was thinking of, that illustrate the potential appeal of a man who already takes 50% of the Republican vote in a district that gave him 70% of the overall vote in his last reelection campaign.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[renie408]

63. Location, Location, Location

I think the problem is that people get type cast and then are stuck with the view others have of them. I can't even get any of my more conservative friends to talk about Kucinich. "Oh, he's way too liberal." they say, and that's that. Here, he doesn't get any play at all.

BUT...amongst what I would consider my 'independent' (or perhaps 'hippie' is the better word?) friends, he is well supported. Unfortunately, in southern central NC, my hippie friends are WAY outnumbered by my conservative friends.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

78. When people say "He's too liberal"

about any politician, I usually ask them what they mean by that or to give specific examples.

They usually can't answer. That opens the way for discussion.

You have to circumvent the carefully inculcated Repiggie talking points.

[diamondsoul]

8. He's completely different.

It scares a lot of people to be faced with a truly decent person who doesn't dissemble, pull punches or pretend to be something he isn't.

There is also a tendency in this country to sneer at idealism. For myself, I think that's foolish. Idealism is what motivates change. People who dream about better things, better days and better ways are how we make progress. That's what Kucinich does, only he publicly announces those dreams, and that makes him a subject of ridicule. Undeservedly, imho.

I suppose what's so awful about Kucinich, according to the more cynical among us, is that he's promising things "he may not be able to deliver". I don't happen to accept that because I've gone back over his record. When he makes a promise he knocks himself out to deliver it. That's why Muny Light wasn't sold, because he made a promise to the people of Cleveland. He makes promises to the people of America now, and I firmly believe he will carry them out.

Also, I suspect you won't get too many replies different from what I've said from non-supporters, which should tell you something.

[kimchi]

9. I don't think most people think he's BAD, but a long shot.

Most DUers are more middle America than radical. Because Kucinich is the most liberal candidate, he has been spun by the cheap labor conservative loving media as unable to win, which is horseshit. Some here even fall for that.

Just a speculation. That is the only reservation I have about him. I adore the man, but I am a pragmatist, too. I also think his day hasn't quite come yet.

Kucinich/Clark- now that's MY dream ticket.

[JohnKleeb]

10. I dunno

Also Kucinich/Clark I dont think that would do, no offense if any of you all supported Kosovo but Dennis didnt so it would be odd.
Heres a ticket I like
Kucinich/John Lewis
Win or lose this primary DK will be back.

[diamondsoul]

13. Hang on, wasn't there one Dennis and Edwards

contradicted on too? That doesn't seem to bother anyone so it shouldn't be a problem for Kucinich/Clark, either.

The reason I've personally mentioned Kucinich/Clark is this, people right now are worried about Dennis mucking around with the defense budget. Now I don't know how much information the Ways and Means committee gets as far as where the finds are going, for National Security reasons, but Clark DOES know what goes on behind even those scenes. He'd HAVE to in order to command effectively. IOW, Clark would fill in any gaps in Kucinich's military knowledge and reassure military people that Kucinich isn't going to make a cut with disastrous consequences.

[JohnKleeb]

14. I dunno about that

I am just saying that Dennis opposed Kosovo a lot. I tell you again
Kucinich/Harkin would be good.

[Egnever]

19. Kucinich /Clark Strikes me as an odd mix also

They seem to be complete oposites when it comes to foreign affairs.

[JohnKleeb]

21. well the fact that DK opposed that war gots me saying the same

Also Egne I think the people diamond says that are most likely to support Kucinich are those without computers those who are like poor.
I say DK/ John Lewis or Barbara Lee or who knows Harkin.

[dpbrown]

22. Kucinich/Edwards or Kucinich/Braun perhaps

Those combinations seem more likely to bring out the strengths of each candidate in an overall race...but it's all putting the cart before the horse, so to speak, so far.

[JohnKleeb]

23. I like Kucinich/Lewis

Imagine the winner of the Gandhi peace award with a former associate of MLK, the American symbol of peace through progress.

[Desertrose]

11. What I've seemed to pick up is that he...

just doesn't fit into people's expectations and projections of what a "politician" looks, acts or sounds like.

For me that is very refreshing and uplifting.

Kucinich will tell it like it is regardless of the political ramifications- if he believes in something or someon- he will speak up for them /it.
He has a vision and sees the world with out the taint of fear...where all people regardless of economics gave a fair chance at health care,education decent jobs.

What is so "bad" in some peoples eyes is what makes him so special in mine!


Dennis gives me feel hope...thats a nice feeling for a change....

please check out his website/s
http://www.kucinich.us
http://www.denniskucinich.us
http://www.wewantkucinich.com/wewantkucinich.htm
Thank you for your sincere question leftist rebel...

Peace
DR

[jos]

16. Abortion, family planning

His views, past and present, are issues that a lot of DUers have had trouble with.

[JohnKleeb]

18. isnt that a little harsh though being that Clinton and Gore were once that

Its not like he was a warhawk during this time, or a die hard supporter of the death penalty, and in favor of disabling aid to the poor.

[jos]

24. I don't have a problem with it

I support him. But I think a lot of "social liberals" on DU, i.e., those who think abortion if the number one issue, do.

I think it is harsh. Kucinich has stood for peace and human dignity.

[JohnKleeb]

25. thanks I agree with you

Although I myself am pro choice and very socially liberal. You hear about the award he got?

[jos]

26. Yes I did

Well-deserved.

BTW, I am also pro-choice and socially liberal. But issues like abortion are not black and white. So I could support a pro-life candidate if he or she had a progressive record on economic and foreign policy issues.

[JohnKleeb]

27. and thats DK :)

BTW the guy as your avatar, Bobby Kennedy another one of my heroes.

[jos]

28. Thanks

The first, and really only candidate, I've "fell for."

[JohnKleeb]

29. RFK was great

I am reading on him now. DK and RFK talked about simliar things like the beauty of peace and compassion.

[jos]

30. He's one candidate who really could have made a difference

Especially in race relations and the trigger-happy American foreign policy and culture.

[JohnKleeb]

31. yep

had he not died, progressivism would be the norm.

[Mairead]

32. My sense is that the biggest thing 'wrong' with him

is that he scares the snot out of people who have an investment in the status quo. And, being frightened of losing their (mostly imagined) privileges, they hit out.

I myself think he's the best --perhaps only-- hope we have of avoiding having to choose between virtual enslavement and genuinely-bloody revolution. As Justice Brandeis reminded us, democracy and great wealth disparity cannot coexist.

But he's not flawless.

He seems to have pandered to white ethnic racism in the '70s, though I'm not yet clear about how much that really amounted to. A Black man and former political opponent, George Forbes, describes it as 'he played to his constituency, and I played to mine'. But Forbes is quick to add 'I can tell you right now: he was not a racist'.

Until 2 years ago, he repeatedly voted against Choice in Congress. Dan rightly softens it by mentioning that his voting record is not unmixed, but from my feminist standpoint his record was totally unacceptable. Had he not changed his stance, I would not now be supporting his candidacy.

He seems to have also supported DOMA as a candidate for Congress, though I'm still trying to get to the bottom of that. I think I believe it, though, because it would fit within the general picture I have of him.

His change of attitude toward Choice is characterised as a principled change in the direction of supporting women's equality. At first I believed that, but now I don't. At best, I think his motivations are mixed. I believe that the change is mostly down to his lifelong commitment to taking care of his constituency. He represents a rather conservative RC district, so he toed the conservative RC line on core positions such as Choice and LGB rights. He represented his constituency. That's awful on one level, but very hard to criticise on another.

As President, the whole US would be his constituency, so he has to make the appropriate shift in position. In other words, if the US as a whole were anti-Choice, he would still be, too. But it's not, so he's not. There is some women's-Constitutional-equality motivation there too--and I think that's a real part of him, not merely expedient--but I simply don't believe that it accounts for the majority of his shift. Now, if we elect him and the population shifts away from Choice, will he abandon us? No, I don't think so for a moment: his record is solidly that of dancing with those what brung him.

He has major backbone. Tool steel. That's a mixed blessing--pigheaded on one side (less so now than formerly), but someone we can count on to go to the wall for us on the other. His sense of self-worth won't permit him knowingly to let us down. So he was willing to put his entire livelihood on the line to keep faith with Cleveland's citizens who were counting on him. He came through for them and, once they sobered up and realised what his sacrifice had saved them from, they have repeatedly come through for him. His sense of self is also where his work-while-campaigning comes from. He's been re-elected with big enough margins that he could miss some votes to campaign, but that would be letting the side down. So instead he keeps a schedule that would fell an ox. (Which might explain his lackluster showing on that recent program: exhaustion.)


FWIW, that's my take.

(edit) Let me toss in another quote from George Forbes:
'Nobody likes him but the people'

and one from a Republican :evilgrin:

"Dennis is almost like a cult hero," says Republican state Sen. Gary Suhadonik. "We were at a national conference of state legislators last year in Milwaukee and people were coming over like ..." He slips into a dramatic whisper. "Are you Dennis Kucinich? Are you the former mayor of Cleveland? Even people from other states. He has a nationwide following out there. It's just unbelievable."

[JohnKleeb]

33. Hes always been pretty good on gay rights

The good thing he was as a pro lifer was, was a guy who opposed the death penalty, wars, and the like. Also Malread thanks again for defending me and did you get my pm, much thanks.

[dpbrown]

48. I'd be curious what you find out about DOMA, I don't think he's for it

The Defense of Marriage Act passed in 1996.

Dennis Kucinich did not take office until 1997.

When Kucinich did have a chance to vote, in 1998, on something related to domestic partners, he voted in support of the use of federal funds to implement San Francisco's ordinance requiring organizations that have contracts with the city to provide benefits to unmarried domestic partners.

And in 1999 he voted against banning adoptions in District of Columbia by gays or other individuals who are not related by blood or marriage.

In contrast, Governor Dean simply signed into law a recognition of domestic unions that was mandated by a ruling by the Supreme Court of the State of Vermont. He didn't even have a choice in the matter.

Rep. Kucinich is the only candidate who has said that he would support a federal law recognizing gay marriages. That's the strongest stand in support of civil unions of any of the candidates. Dr. Dean has said that it should be "up to the states."

While your statement is that he supported it "as a candidate" his record since being elected (not just since running for President) has been in support of gay rights.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Mairead]

49. I agree with you

I'm sure he's not for it. I phrased that para badly, but by the time I realised that, the editing window had passed.

What I should have said is: he is alleged to have supported DOMA as a candidate. I think that's quite possible that he did on some level, that he equivocated or did something that could somehow be interpreted as support, though I've not found any actual details. He seems to have been willing, in the '70s, to 'play to his constituency' in order to get elected. But as recently as 1996? I don't know. I'd prefer to think not, but expressing support for DOMA does fit with voting anti-Choice: both are conservative-RC positions that would go down well in his district.

What we know for sure is that, as you say, he's solidly on the side of the angels now.

His reputation among political pros is one of being an outstanding rep for the people who elect him. He supports their views and takes care of them with a dedication nobody else can match. One of his former opponents reckons that he (the opponent) did the best job of campaigning he could imagine doing, the best he'd done in his political life -- and Dennis still won going away with a 12% lead in hand.

I said that I think only part of his shift to Choice is based on his touted concern for women's equality, and that's true, I do. But, as I also mentioned, I think that that concern is 'real Dennis' -- in a way that his anti-Choice position was not. He's too committed to fairness and not narrowly devout enough, I think, for his anti-Choice (or his putative anti-LGB) views to have been more than a reflection of his willingness to represent.

What I'd really like to know is whether he feels he's again risking his livelihood, but this time for the nation. Does he expect to be out of a job again, if we fail him? I'd love to know the answer to that one.

[dpbrown]

50. I usually don't give up the "anti-choice" ground very easily

When challenged, since, while his vote was "bad" on three things that are obviously on the "choice wishlist" (int'l funding for family planning, abortions at overseas military hospitals, and 'partial-birth' restrictions when the health of the mother was protected), he also was voting, as early as 1998 he was voting for access to contraception and a full social safety net, prongs supporting "choice" that are completely opposite the Republican position. And when the bill on 'partial-birth' abortion came to a vote without the protection for the mother in it, he voted against that, too.

[Mairead]

60. Do you have access to different information than I do?

Because when I look at vote-smart--admittedly not exhaustively--I can't find anything that looks good. Do I need to review it exhaustively? Because the ones I have looked at have been really ugly from my feminist standpoint.

[dpbrown]

62. These are five I found at Vote-Smart

1. Voted against requiring counselors to notify parents and impose a five-day waiting period when minors entered family planning clinics to buy contraceptives.

2. He voted to force federal health care plans that include drug coverage to include coverage for contraceptives.

3. He voted against creating a new crime of assaulting a pregnant women based on causing harm to a fetus.

4. He voted against a measure that would have banned the use of US Population funds to advocate abortion as a family planning measure.

5. He voted against banning "partial birth" abortion when the health of the mother is not specially protected as an exception to the ban.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[peaceandjustice]

34. 4 reasons why Dennis Kucinich is "bad"

1. Dennis Kucinich has a lousy idea. His major policy initiative is expanding government bureaucracy and squandering resources-streched as they are already- on creating a Department of Peace. Every cent spent rearranging the federal infrastructure for this plan is a cent denied to health care, alleviating poverty, providing adequate counsel to poor defendants, etc. And the Department of Peace will only be as good and noble as the President-appointed Secretary of Peace would be. All of those resource will easily be redirected to obscene projects, quite possibly things like the wall in Palestine, as soon as the political winds shift and a conservative Republican is elected.
2. Kucinich flip-flopped on abortion at a politically convenient time. He previously opposed a woman's constitutional right to surgical abortion but shortly before declaring his Presidential intentions.
3. His record on civil liberties is yet more questionable. He voted for a constitutional amendment prohibiting acts of free speech specifically burning or otherwise "desecrating" the American flag.
4. His resume is somewhat lacking. He has served as Mayor of Cleveland and as a congressman from Cleveland. He has never been elected to a statewide office. His ability to appeal to rural and suburban voters is largely untested.

[JohnKleeb]

35. 4 counters

1. If we can prevent uneeded wars with that department of peace would it be so bad, btw this was Washington's idea.
2.I wouldnt say he flip floped on abortion but I ask you this was he voting for the death penalty related mesaures, voting for war in Iraq, etc
3. I disagree with him on the flag desecration but he is introducing legislation to repeal the patriot act and he was the only presidential candiate to vote against it.
4. He has been elected to state office, how can he appeal to rural voters, he is a big farmers rights activist.

[peaceandjustice]

71. responses but first, props

Big-time props to you for well-written and concise counterarguments to my post. Props to hippywife too, if you're ever in Pennsyltucky (that part of Pennsylvania James Carville affectionately compared to Alabama) I'll buy either of you a drink.

No props to Diamond soul. I'm sorry if I didn't respond soon enough to suit you. I don't see how anything I said is a smear or propaganda, I think you're just using those words as a cop-out.

1) I don't think the Department of Peace is needed to prevent wars. I think the State Department is equipped to do that if we have a President interested in preventing unneeded wars. And I don't think a Department of Peace would prevent a President like the one we currently have from pursuing unneeded wars if he or she so chooses that course of policy.

2) I have to admit that Dennis Kucinich is admirable in his steadfast opposition to the death penalty and I thank him for that. He did vote for war in Afghanistan though, which balances out his opposition to Iraq.

3) Also true. I don't think I should have to pick and choose between one anti-free speech position or another anti-civil liberties position. I think the Democratic Party should be able to nominate someone consistantly in favor of civil liberties. I wish Russell Feingold was running.

4) I hadn't considered how his commitment to fighting agribusiness could impact rural voters. He has not been elected to statewide office though. He was elected to State Senate, a state office with distinct districts. He has never successfully ran for office outside of the Cleveland area.

[JohnKleeb]

73. ok

Feingold is great I do like him no denying that. Every candiate will have flaws. The department of peace btw is not just to prevent wars, look at the website. Actually I think Afghanstan was different than Iraq. BTW I think the best person if you want to prevent future Iraq wars is him. Also if you are pro labor, hes very good, and he wants to repeal taft-hartley.

[diamondsoul]

77. You're right, I was obnxious, and I'm sorry

for that.

I had just read some rather nasty articles about Congressman Kucinich, and several threads with hit and run posts, both of which tend to irritate me more than they probably should.

I try hard to speak to arguments against Congressman Kucinich with decent manners and without that sort of nastiness, and I think most times I'm successful. This wasn't one of those times, and again, I apologize.

[hippywife]

79. Counter counter

1) The Dept of Peace is not a new idea actually. The Institute of Peace was initially proposed by George Washington. It already exists, created by Congress, but not as a function of government.

http://www.usip.org/

I think that it would be an incredible idea to have just such an organization as a function of government. This would reinforce Kucinich's commitment to peace as something that takes much work but is worth the effort necessary. It isn't something that is declared one day and not the next.

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/issue_departmentpeace.htm

http://www.oriononline.org/pages/om/03-2om/Berry.html
Exerpt from above article by Wendell Berry:
We can no longer afford to confuse peaceability with passivity. Authentic peace is no more passive than war. Like war, it calls for discipline and intelligence and strength of character, though it calls also for higher principles and aims. If we are serious about peace, then we must work for it as ardently, seriously, continuously, carefully, and bravely as we now prepare for war.

Also consider that Kucinich's Dept. of Peace would not deal with international efforts alone. He proposes to use it in the effort to stem domestic violence: spousal abuse, child abuse, gang violence, etc.

2)Re: Afghanistan: It doesn't balance out Iraq. We were directly attacked. Huge, monumental diff. Apples and oranges. If anyone wants to call Kucinich "soft on defense", that yes vote proves that he is willing to defend our nation under attack.

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=3064&can_id=BC032003

Representative Dennis J. Kucinich voted YES.

Vote to pass a joint resolution that would authorize the president to use all necessary and appropriate force against parties responsible in any way for the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States.

Also, note that the resolution called for "necessary and appropriate force". It was the admin that bungled that part of it in it's execution. They totally ignored the concept of an equal and measured response.


3.) I understand the sentiment that it is a free-speech issue and I don't agree with an amendment for it, either. I, too, was disappointed to hear that he had voted yes. However, given his overall platform and what I believe to be his motivation for this particular vote, to win our national emblem back from the warmongers, I can live with it.

4.) He may not have run successfully for office outside of the Cleveland area but since taking office in D.C. as U.S. House Representative, his advocacy and activism regarding issues of global importance and impact have made him widely known and respected as well as very much the type of American president the entire world could breath easier about. And now I'm hearing he has been presented the Ghandi International Peace Award.

http://www.kucinich.us/aboutdennis.htm

And, BTW, thanx for the props. I'm an Ohio girl originally and still have the majority of my ties there so you never know when I may be up in that neck o'the woods. ;)

[peaceandjustice]

95. Probably my last reply on this topic

because we've all seemed to hash out our arguments and now it is just in how we prioritize his strengths and weaknesses, but I wanted to say one last thing: Afghanistan did not attack the U.S. Al-Quida did, and Afghanistan did not refuse to extradite Osama bin Laden and the al-Quida leadership, they just required evidence of his guilt, a reasonable request. War was never an effective means of killing or capturing the guilty parties, as it destabilized the region and enabled their escape.

[hippywife]

39. 4 more counters

1.) Single-payer universal health care can be implemented for what we are paying now according to industry experts so no big additional expenditure there since higher overhead costs of private insurers would be eliminated. That means that the Dept. of Peace can be funded from the 15% reduction of the pentagon budget. With 1.2 tril missing, I don't think anyone but those getting their pockets lined and their palms greased would even notice the diff. (Damn was that the seed money for the terrorism futures market?) Not to mention the fact that we will no longer be bleeding obscene amounts of money into Iraq every month.

2.) This doesn't hold up to the light of day when you really do the required reading that is necessary when considering candidates. Look at his voting record for the past two years...not just yeas or neys, but also what all is contained in the bills, not just the major thrust of them. Then look at when he decided to run. And also consider the fact that we drafted him.

3.) Dennis is trying to bring meaning back to the symbol of our nation. For anyone that stood against the Iraq war, the sight of our national emblem flying furiously because "We're kickin' little brown ass!!" is truly obscene. See my essay at commondreams.org:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0604-05.htm

4.) City Council for Cleveland, Mayor of Cleveland (youngest mayor of any major city in history) where he saved working class families more than $200,000,000 dollars, 3 times elected to the national office of United States House Representatives, the last two times with nearly 75% of the vote, a 100% voting record in congress despite being on the campaign trail, where every chance he gets, he stands and blasts Bush on his illegal war and demands to see the evidence used to mislead this nation to that war, where he is the head of the Progressive Caucus, where he worked to gather the support of 30 congresspersons to vote against the resolution for war. Yeah, that's one hell of a shabby resume.

[peaceandjustice]

70. responding to 3 of your points

1) Even if this all ends up being true, and I have my doubts that Kucinich or, to keep this from being too anti-Kucinich, anyone can reform our health care system effectively enough to genuinely eliminate the high overhead costs of private insurance or cut 15% of lard from the defense budget, that is still 1.2 trillion that could be spent on projects other than building a new office building, hiring middle-management, buying desks, staplers and the other sundry items that a cabinet-level department requires.

3) It isn't Dennis' job, or anyone else's job, to dictate what the American flag should mean to the rest of us. Everyone should be allowed to decide for themself, from the WWII vet who thinks of Iwo Jima and the liberation of the concentration camps when he salutes a flag passing him in the Fourth of July Parade to the Black activist who thinks of the flag on the shoulders of the Sheriff's Deputies at the Edmund Pettis Bridge when he or she doesn't salute the passing flag.

4) Mayor of one of America's smaller major metropolitan areas, never competed on a statewide ballot as John Kerry, Howard Dean, Bob Graham, John Edwards, Carole Moseley Braun and Joe Lieberman have, leads a caucus whose membership consists of less than 10% of the House's overall membership and is made of people of similar if not nearly identical idealogical background.

[diamondsoul]

42. I didn't even finish reading and here are 4 more-

even though I doubt you'll come back to defend your statements.

"1. Dennis Kucinich has a lousy idea. His major policy initiative is expanding government bureaucracy and squandering resources-streched as they are already- on creating a Department of Peace. Every cent spent rearranging the federal infrastructure for this plan is a cent denied to health care, alleviating poverty, providing adequate counsel to poor defendants, etc. And the Department of Peace will only be as good and noble as the President-appointed Secretary of Peace would be. All of those resource will easily be redirected to obscene projects, quite possibly things like the wall in Palestine, as soon as the political winds shift and a conservative Republican is elected."

Dennis Kucinich has the MOST rational idea. His "major policy initiative" is NOT expanding Goverment beaurocracy, it is working to make the common man and woman's life livable. The Department of Peace, while a valuable and integral componenet of the Kucinich platform is by NO means the "major polciy initiative". If you want to discuss "major policy initiative" try healthcare for all, education for all, and workers rights. Those you see are the cornerstones of the Kucinich platform. PEOPLE are the cornerstone of the Kucinich platform.

The rest of your remarks are unwarranted and unsupported smear and will not be replied to with anything but the disdain they deserve.

"2. Kucinich flip-flopped on abortion at a politically convenient time. He previously opposed a woman's constitutional right to surgical abortion but shortly before declaring his Presidential intentions."

Interesting that you consider a full year to fit the phrase "shortly before". Most rational people, however, do not. His first vote in favor of women's rights (note not the same as "in favor of abortion") came in March of 2002, not 2003. That was a year ago, and prior to that it was a full 6 months of difference between his last PL vote and his PC vote.


"3. His record on civil liberties is yet more questionable. He voted for a constitutional amendment prohibiting acts of free speech specifically burning or otherwise "desecrating" the American flag."

Yep, he did vote for a constitutional amendment allowing Congress to limit free speech by banning flag-burning. Unfortunately for your contention, the bill alone would NOT have banned flag-burning and since we don't know what his vote would have been regarding the right to do so, your argument falls flat. That's ALL you can come up with RE: free speech infractions?

Uhhh...anybody but me call that a damned sight better than Bush and companies "Patriot Act"? :eyes:

"4. His resume is somewhat lacking. He has served as Mayor of Cleveland and as a congressman from Cleveland. He has never been elected to a statewide office. His ability to appeal to rural and suburban voters is largely untested."

Right. Ok so what, so was Clintons and so was Carters. Who gives a flying fig?

Tell ya what, when you can debate me with something other than canned crap, come on back and we'll debate Kucinich's merits and flaws. I'm up for it, how about you? Can ya do it without propaganda and BS?

[peaceandjustice]

66. responses

Plenty of other candidates are tackling workers rights, expanding health care and education. The department of Peace is what sets Kucinich's campaign apart from Gephardt's, Dean's and Kerry's. You say nothing to discount my contention that the Dept. of Peace would use up the resources needed to implement expanded health care and other more important goals or the pragmatic reality that a Dept. of Peace is only as noble as the administration that presides over it for any given term.

It is a hairsplitting difference between raping the constitution to permit congress to limit free speech and actually limiting free speech. While we don't know if he would as a congressman vote for prohibiting flag-burning if the amendment passes, we don't know if he wouldn't either. And I don't think we need to choose between a pro-Patriot Act/anti-flag-burning amendment candidate and an anti-patriot act/pro-flag burning amendment candidate, I think we can insist on someone who opposes both.

How were Carter and Clinton untested with rural voters? both were elected statewide in states with large rural populations. And while State Senate may be a state office, it is not a statewide office in the sense that voters across all of Ohio had a chance to vote for or against Kucinich.

Kucinich has done some good things. His record on energy policy and on standing up to the electric monopolists is strong. His involvement with the Progressive Caucus is admirable.

[diamondsoul]

74. First I apologize for the tone of post #42

"Plenty of other candidates are tackling workers rights, expanding health care and education. The department of Peace is what sets Kucinich's campaign apart from Gephardt's, Dean's and Kerry's."

I disagree with your statement. I think every position Kucinich takes sets him apart from the others. The Department of Peace may be what grabs people's attention but it is definitely not the only thing setting Kucinich apart.

"You say nothing to discount my contention that the Dept. of Peace would use up the resources needed to implement expanded health care and other more important goals or the pragmatic reality that a Dept. of Peace is only as noble as the administration that presides over it for any given term."

The Department of Peace WON'T use up resources needed to implement healthcare and other goals. Those resources have already been identified, and the implmentation of a new WPA system will increase government funds via increased taxes being paid in. Combine those things with the defense spending cuts and other reorganization of spending, and the resources will be there. Tax the corporations and the extremely wealthy their rightful share of the burden and you've got a sound financial flow into government programs. More people working means more taxes, more taxes means funds are there to be used, and particularly so if the burden is evenly distributed for a change.

I will concede the point about the presiding administration, because that's a concern of my own in some of Kucinich's plans. If it makes the United States a respectable, decent, and more sound country over-all, I'm willing to take a few risks.

"It is a hairsplitting difference between raping the constitution to permit congress to limit free speech and actually limiting free speech. While we don't know if he would as a congressman vote for prohibiting flag-burning if the amendment passes, we don't know if he wouldn't either. And I don't think we need to choose between a pro-Patriot Act/anti-flag-burning amendment candidate and an anti-patriot act/pro-flag burning amendment candidate, I think we can insist on someone who opposes both."

Why? I grant you a valid argument as far as hair-splitting difference, though I'm inclined to disagree with it. Congress may have the power and never be able to excercise it because support just doesn't add up. In which case them having the power to do something is nothing more than show. Given the date of the flag-burning amendment vote, I'm not inclined to consider it a major issue to be concerned with at this point in time. Congressman Kucinich has proven himself to be a reasonable man capable of re-evaluating positions and seeing the valid individual right arguments against his initial stand. Again, it's a risk I'm willing to take on this candidate.

"How were Carter and Clinton untested with rural voters? both were elected statewide in states with large rural populations. And while State Senate may be a state office, it is not a statewide office in the sense that voters across all of Ohio had a chance to vote for or against Kucinich."

So is your contention, then, that nobody should run for President unless they've previously been elected Governor of their State? If not, I fail to see the relevance of Statwide office elections. Who cares what he's been elected to previously? I'll take his record to date, his proven integrity and his definite determination to properly serve the people who vote him into office, no matter how local that election may have been. He's an all around good man, something we need a helluva lot more of in politics.

[peaceandjustice]

99. I lied, here's another post.

thanks for the apology. I understand that at times people here go overboard in candidate-bashing and it can be trying.
I understand that Kucinich has an explanation, and a commendable one, for how the Department of Peace will not deny social programs any resources they currently recieve and how he would still be able to expand health care coverage, but ANY expenditure on creating a new department, which includes such mundane costs as building facilities, buying staplers and desks and filing cabinets and computers, is money that could be spent on expanding the social safety net.

I do consider experience as governor a major advantage. U.S. Senators are also more experienced in general with campaigning for votes from a diverse electorate as they run statewide. Even having served as for state treasurer or attorney general at some point, I think, would be advantageous for Pres. candidates.

[Mairead]

105. "I do consider experience as governor a major advantage."

Don't forget --if the governor you're thinking of is Dean-- that Dennis's city is and was as big as Dean's whole state and MUCH more complex and diverse--Cleveland has neighborhoods that are bigger than Vermont's cities. So when you talk about 'campaigning for votes from a diverse electorate', Dennis is the one with all the experience. He has successfully done that over and over again whereas Dean has never had to.

Massachusetts is similar, though again much more diverse than Vermont. There is what amounts to a South-Bronx-type Black ghetto in the Boston area (painful to drive through because the desolation reminds me irresistably of the sardonic Black catchphrase from the '60s and '70s: 'urban renewal means n*gg*r removal'), the Springfield area has a very large Spanish-speaking population, and there are smaller east- and southeast-Asian communities in Boston, Worcester, and Springfield. But overwhelmingly, the state is whitebread and small-town.

[JohnKleeb]

106. Are you from Springfield

because my philosophy teacher is and another teacher is too. Yes Vermont and Cleveland are about the same size roughly.

[dpbrown]

47. Ohio State Senate is a statewide office

And he takes 50% in the Republican suburbs in his district. He's the only candidate who's calling for empowering farmers to create their own electrical power and be made a greater part of the agribusiness distribution network. So you're wrong on number 4.

As to 3, putting the matter as a referendum to the people of the nation is a way to put the matter to rest once and for all. A Constitutional Amendment only happens when three-quarters (or two-thirds) of the states vote for that Amendment. Calling for an amendment is calling the right-wing on their bluff.

As to 2, he only voted for late-term partial birth abortion restrictions when the life of the mother was protected (why do people forget that this procedure is almost only implemented when the life of the mother is at risk?), and when the bill was amended to remove that protection, he voted against it. He never voted to restrict any other procedure, so your statement is overbroad as well.

As to 1, the money is already there and being wasted. We're paying for Universal Health Care and not getting it, in wasted CEO pay and administrative waste. The Pentagon couldn't account for more than $1,000,000,000,000 in its own spending last year. Kucinich says it can be made 15% more efficient, and I believe him.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[OzarkDem]

110. Not exactly

Ohio Senate is a state- level office, but Ohio senators run from districts that are slightly larger than state representatives districts.

That said, Dennis is a terrific legislator and elected official with a well known record for doing what he says. He also has made a career in taking on difficult issues for regular people and not backing down. He researches issues carefully, takes a position and fights for it. He's also one of the most brilliant political strategists in the Dem party.

[genius]

40. The attacks are mainly from the Dean camp

I can only figure that Dean thought the anti-war crowd would fall behind him. However, most of these people are falling in behind Kucinich. A 12 year old girl did a survey and an overhwhelming majority of these people support Kucinich. Clark even came in ahead of Dean with the activist crowd. I used to work for the Dean campaign and left to work for Kucinich. I have been personally threatened by people working on the Dean campaign. I know of one instance where a Kucinich child was roughed up by a Dean person. Part of the problem is that some of the meaniest, nastiest people in politics are attracted to Dean's campaign. I don't know if Dean knows what his people are up to. But, even if Dean gets the nomination, there are now a great many Democrats who won't vote for him - even against George Bush.

[JohnKleeb]

41. I was once for Dean too

Changed when I looked at Dennis on the issue. That girl you mean Nastasha, she does great work, I am subscribed to the kids for Kucinich thing.

[acerbic]

43. Got anything to back up those CLAIMS?

I have been personally threatened by people working on the Dean campaign. I know of one instance where a Kucinich child was roughed up by a Dean person.

If you don't, it would look pretty loony...

[Desertrose]

51. There was an instance I witnessed about 2 weeks ago

we were tabling at a Dem gathering and the Kerry table was between the Dean table and the DK table. My friend- who is a coordinator of a city here in N AZ, was basically accosted by a very angry Dean supporter who grabbed her arm as she was walking from the lavs back to our table.

My friend had her DK t-shirt on and this woman just came up out of her seat and got in her face going on about the abortion thing. It took her a while to get a way form her...I was on my way to the table to help but she broke free and walked away. Absolutely no provocation because we were friendly with the ohter Dean folk there.

I have noticed a LOT of angry folks attracted to Dean.
:shrug:
I'd say there's a clue....


Peace
DR

[JohnKleeb]

52. what the hell

is up with that. Tell your friend I am sorry about what happened, I hope shes ok. I am angry myself but like the frustration I get here I hold it in and its mostly sad anger not anger anger. You know DR I am real happy to be supporting Kucinich. Reading about his great vision, his great story, and his work etfic inspire me. I wear those Kucinich buttons on my backup for a reason. Thats real sad, I just wish people would respect our fight and who we are and what we stand for. That said DR win or lose the primary, I will never be ashamed of who I supported.

[acerbic]

53. Something missing from your story...

My friend- who is a coordinator of a city here in N AZ, was basically accosted by a very angry Dean supporter who grabbed her arm as she was walking from the lavs back to our table.

How did you know the "attacker" was a "Dean supporter"? Because she behaved as you believe "Dean supporters" to behave, which is why you believe "Dean supporters" to behave that way...?

[diamondsoul]

54. Um, I believe they said the Dean supporter

got up from her chair to get in this Kucinich supporters face. If she's sitting in a chair at the Dean table, what would anyone think?

I know I certainly never got up and got in anyone's face while tabling the Labor Day events and myself and another Kucinich supporter decided to agree to disagree on abortion, as it applies to law.

[Desertrose]

59. Maybe the part about her bright red Tshirt ....

.........that was covered with Dean buttons and stickers ...and I belive it the word D E A N printed on it as well....
You mean that part??

ooooh, my bad!

Plus the fact she was sitting there the entire day handing out info at the Dean table?? (To give her the benefit of the doubt- she was from another city and was not a local person )

OK...does that fill in the missing blank for you acerbic?

peace
DR

[LWolf]

44. Absolutely nothing.

He offers a significant contrast to business as usual and a significant change from our current quagmire. The fact is that many people have lost the confidence to believe that we can achieve change. Many are willing to surrender the dream for a feeling of security or for what they perceive as victory.

What I see is that when we compromise our ideals to win, we haven't won anything.

[Mairead]

45. Right on, LW

'Never compromise yourself. You're all you've got.' (Janis Joplin)

[revcarol]

64. One reason he gets flamed is that he

is AGAINST mega-monopolies, corporate corruption, huge media, and agri-business.

ALL the other candidates except JL say they are against these things, but they don't have a PLAN to counter these evil influences on our society. Some even subscribe to the DLC"s "If they contribute to Democrats they must be OK" view. (Especially one $2000 a dinner one, not Bush)
So look past the lip service to see what their PLANS for this country are regarding these issues.DK says that there has not been this much business consolidation since the ROBBER BARONS' DAYS.AND HE WILL SIC HIS JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ONTO THEM FOR ANTI-TRUST VIOLATIONS AND RESTRAINT OF TRADE!!

Now that's a PLAN.
But the others have no plan so they say he's unelectable, he's just an idealist....When you consider the damage that has been done to this country by John Ashcroft's inJustice Department,and you consider the good that DK's Justice Department could do in these areas, you see that DK's plan HAS MEAT ON THOSE BONES.

[kang]

67. Just one opinion about Kucinich

First, he advocates tearing down NAFTA and WTO rather than reforming it. Many of you may agree with this (I do not since the US would lose even more credibility on our ability to stick to int'l agreements...thanks to Pres. Bush on Kyoto, ABM, ICC, etc.), but the fact is that Kucinich backs policies which will not get sufficient support to pass or get funded unless the Dems win back the House and Senate. Do you anticipate this happening? Maybe it will happen, but if it doesn't Kucinich's policies (if he was elected in the general election) are radical, which although appealing to some for their purity, are not going to be swallowed by many Americans.

Second, there will be a public perception that his experience as a mayor and congressman simply doesn't measure up to the office of the president. If Howard Dean and Edwards are having problems with their relative lack of foreign policy experience, well you get the point.

Third, everybody can admire the fact that Kucinich sticks to his guns and says what he believes. However, many of his statements make no room for compromise and he seems unyielding in many respects. Again, as an individual, that's great, but as a president one needs to build coalitions and consensus. Part of that is compromising and coming to a deal that a majority can live with (but not be thrilled about). That's democracy and the difference btw being a legislator with one vote and a party leader.

That's just my take on Kucinich. Also, he comes off as a little mean on TV (similar to Dean). If not mean, a little to overly serious. He should try throwing in some jokes or something. Yes, this is serious stuff, but I think voters want to feel that there's more to a guy than passionate rage (while with Kerry it seems people want to see some fire).

[kang]

68. Forgot to ask about the Guevera picture

I read his biography once (over 500 pages!), but I'm always curious what statement people are trying to make when they post his picture or wear a t-shirt. What's your message? After all, he did hate America with a vengeance (due to our policies in Latin America) and executed a good number of people in the name of the greater good.

[JohnKleeb]

72. ok

1. I see what you mean on NAFTA and WTO but hes seen what these have done to jobs. We dont know what the congressional makeup will be and the GOP congress will be an ass on any democrat president.
2. Hes been involved in foriegn affairs longer than Bush and Cleveland is as big as Vermont
Ok Ive seen him on TV he can be quite funny. I wouldnt call him mean really. Hes critical to say the least.

[hippywife]

80. In response

1.) Canceling NAFTA and the WTO is hardly comparable to Bush's backing out of Kyoto, ABM, etc. Bush offered squat in return for his reneges. Kucinich is offering the implementation of fair, bi-lateral trade agreements that would include conditions of worker's rights, a living wage, and environmental considerations for workers of all nations participating in these agreements. Kucinich is not only looking to make the lives of American workers liveable but those of workers around the world. How long now have people been condemning the import of goods that are products of slave and/or child labor in hideous sweat shops overseas? Now someone actually wants to do something about that issue other than talk about it. And with regard to the other treaties mentioned, how fast do you think he'll take us back into full participation with the rest of the world? I bet it would make your head spin.

2.) Same response to this as I gave in message#79:
He may not have run successfully for office outside of the Cleveland area but since taking office in D.C. as U.S. House Representative, his advocacy and activism regarding issues of global importance and impact have made him widely known and respected as well as very much the type of American president the entire world could breath easier about. And now I'm hearing he has been presented the Ghandi International Peace Award.

3.) There is compromise and there is compromise. As far as I can tell, he isn't the Demo version of Tom DeLay. I think in his 3 terms in the House, he has earned a reputation of working well with others to build consensus.

And he has an incredibly sharp sense of wit. He describes the current admin as "our unelected president and his undisclosed vice president." He called Ashcroft on his covering of the bosoms of the statue of justice "as if to indicate that justice will not be exposing herself in this administration."

Dennis is a serious guy when it comes to his work. That's where the 100% voting record comes from. He listens intently to others and what is going on around him and he responds passionately from the heart. Watch his schedule for the next time he is in your area and meet him face to face and watch him interact with his supporters.

[FluxRostrum]

82. Not this time.

"but I think voters want to feel that there's more to a guy than passionate rage"

Besides the fact that there is much more to Dennis than "passionate rage"; this time that's exactly what I want to see. That and solid plans. Dennis is well stocked with both.

[Mairead]

84. Perhaps I don't understand

First, he advocates tearing down NAFTA and WTO rather than reforming it. Many of you may agree with this (I do not since the US would lose even more credibility on our ability to stick to int'l agreements...thanks to Pres. Bush on Kyoto, ABM, ICC, etc.)

Why would you think the US would be less respected for walking away from bad treaties and ratifying good ones than for walking away from good ones and maintaining bad ones? That seems backwards to me.

[JohnKleeb]

86. Malread and he wants us to join with the International community more so

for the good of all
that is
the balistic missle treaty
the world court
kyoto
the landmine treaty
etc
This is a man who inspires me.

[belab13]

75. Saw Kucinich on The Daily Show last night

He's growing on me. That fire in the belly that he projects appeals to me, but it may put off other folks. I love his ideas/ platform..

[diamondsoul]

76. It's his fire that drew me in to start with.

Then I listened to the ideas he was putting out and just gaped. Pure unadulterated guts and determination.

There's not a thing wrong with any of Kucinich's platform except that some people are too scared to actually consider them. I understand it, but I don't have to like it.

[no name no slogan]

100. The same fire that Wellstone had

Kucinich's fire reminds me of the same fire that Paul Wellstone used to have.

I first worked w/ Wellstone in 1988 on a local legislative race. He came and helped organize a bunch of us college kids to defeat a very tough conservative opponent in a very conservative district. Needless to say, our local victory was all we could celebrate in that awful election year.

Because of Wellstone's fire and commitment, I jumped head first into the 1990 campaign and did what I could to get Paul elected against overwhelming odds, both in the primary and general election.

What I see in Dennis is the same thing I saw in Wellstone: he appeals to EVERYONE, not just liberals or Democrats. What I've seen locally in Minnesota is a lot of his support is coming from non-voters or disaffected voters, who feel that their vote doesn't make a difference any more because the Dems have become "Republican Lite".

I think once people hear him speak about the issues, they'll see what he's talking about, and that he's truly genuine about his positions. He doesn't try to hide the fact that he's a progressive and doesn't pander to what appears to be the "flavor of the week".

And despite the benign neglect of the media, his message is getting out. I think a lot of people are in for a big suprise in Iowa-- a caucus state where a candidate like Kucinich can do very, very well.

[JohnKleeb]

101. what a great first post

:hi: and welcome and :toast:
You are so right. BTW a lot of his supporters, my self not included are Minnesonians but I do have a unique wellstone connection. You may be aware of the fact that Paul grew up in Arlington, Va as a kid right? My dad did too and he had an older brother who went to Catholic school had my grandparents changed their views on the church earlier well my uncle would had been a classmate of the great Paul Wellstone. Thank you so much for this post I really liked it.

[no name no slogan]

103. Great Connection!!!

Thanks for the props! :yourock:

That's great about your uncle and the Wellstone connection. Paul was truly a great inspiration to so many of us. He made people like me (who often have views to the left of even Paul) feel empowered, and welcome in the Minnesota DFL. He talked the talk, and he walked the walk-- with farmers, working folk, students, all of us-- even getting arrested for his principals.

It was really fantastic working on that 1990 campaign. We were absolute underdogs from the start. The DFL establishment (Mondales, Humphreys, etc) had settled on a suburban lawyer as 'the candidate', and our grassroots efforts got Paul the nod at the state convention. I was a delegate that year, and the celebration on the convention floor when Paul accepted the nomination was one of the most electrifying moments of my life!

Paul flew entirely under the CW radar that year-- polls consistently showed him 10%-15% behind incumbent Rudy Boschwitz. However, the only poll that counts is election day, and he pulled out a squeeker. It was truly cathartic when we sent Rudy packing, and watched that Green Bus hit the road to DC.

We can do it again this year, on a national level, and scare the bejeebus out of the NeoCons and the naysayers. And finally get our country back from the greedheads and warmongers.

See you around!

NNNS

[JohnKleeb]

104. Thanks

I really liked how he united the people. I here in Virginia would had loved to have a guy like him. It was so sad to hear that Paul died, I remember that day, I went to young democrats at school so I came to DU yes Ive been a member for nearly a year now and theres a dedication to Paul, I felt so bad and sad I even dedicated my sig to him. It will be a tough road but if we learn from the past and remember the great we can do we will do amazing things. I hope to see you around too. RFK is also a hero of mine.

[Mass_Liberal]

81. in the debate last night....

Kucinich said that you can't balance the budget in the U.S like you could balance the budget of any other state because it has a military. He then made a fairly stupid wisecrack at Dean's expense. True vermont doesn't have a military, but neither does any other state, and they haven't been able to balance their budgets while paying off their debt. Because of what Dean has done for his state, his state is in much less trouble than others. That is nothing to be spat upon.

Peace!

[AnAmerican]

85. The point that was being brought up.....

Is that Dean has trumpeted his balanced budget in Vermont (and rightly so) but it is highly unlikely that Dean would be able to do the same for the country without cutting somewhere...the bloated DoD budget is the prime candidate. Dean says he will not cut defense, so there goes a balanced budget. Is he willing to forego a balanced budget? If yes, then say so, do not fall back on the fact that Vermont has a balanced budget. That is comparing oranges and apples.

[Mass_Liberal]

90. For one he has said he would roll back the Bush tax cut

which would go at least some of the way. Even so, when Kucinich preceded to say "UH HELLO?" it was immature and unbecoming. I normally respect Kucinich but that was beneath him

Peace:kick:

[genius]

83. Dennis is the best of the candidates

H'es the candidate supporters can feel proud working for.

[JohnKleeb]

87. genius I am proud to wear those buttons I own

No one has asked about them in school, my dad has gotten a few eyeballs on his Kucinich bumpersticker.

[Nicholas_J]

88. Nothing at all...

Kucinich is the right candidate at the wrong time.

The fact that a candidate with a record as CONSEREVATIVE as Deans is conmsidered a top tier democrat is a clear indication that the American public, even the Democrats are simply and extremely conservative. But Dean could not run on his own record, so he is playing centrist/liberal/whatever those who he is talking to him wish to hear in order to get those who are dissatisfied with DLC centrism to vote for him.

But if you support Dennis, you must be fairll progressive yourself, and s simply look into Deans record from the viewpoint of the left Democratic Party adn Progressive will find that Deans record is pure conservatism and the ONLY progressive thing he has ever done is pass the civil union act and this had to be forced on him by circumstance, HE did not support it, he was not in the trenches with gays fighting for it to happen.

If you are anything like the ledtis rebel your log on name indicates, simply check the record on your own nad not campaign claims.

I support Kerry, as his legislative records and in particular his fiscally progressive ideas are far more liberal than even Kucinichs.

Kerry backs a complete rewrite of the tax code and creation of a purely progressive tax system as Fiscal Resposibility, as opposed to Deans Fiscal Conservatism, which as governor, were based on income tax cuts and cutting government social programs to to the budget balancing.

Kucinichs only discreting record has been his years of support of anti-abortion laws, which he say he has abandoned, and even if he has not abandoned his personal beleifs, I beleive that like Kennedy, he will NOT let his personal Catholic beliefs influence his obligation to uphold the constitution and laws of the land.

I view Kucinich as a man who will keep his word. There is only one candidate who has a record, both as elected official, and as candidate, who has a record of having lied.

[JohnKleeb]

89. Yeah I am a progressive

Lefty I will tell you as a good friend of him, we are around the same age etc and chat a lot, Lefty is for DK but he didnt wanna say anything. Derek you dont mind me saying this do you? :hi: if you do see this. I've observed this though Nick with many of the Kerry supporters and some Dean supporters too but many of you all, Kerry supporters are real good to Dennis, there are some Dean supporters who do the same. I do like Kerry too, I think I would not be alone in saying that Kerry is my second choice that is for Kucinich supporters. My point on Kerry, I say it jokingly but I love his record, my joke is that you cant be so bad to get on Nixon's enemy list. Kerry is Catholic too right? I find it shameful for America the supposed land of diversity has only elected one Catholic and the most ethnic we have are German American presidents. I dont use that is a litmus test but it is rather shameful, I am a white boy :) but lol not your typical WASP, I am Catholic and one of my ancestral countries is right next to where the Kucinich's came from. No I am not a Serbian then I would be Eastern Orthodox, Slovenia thats where Tom Harkin and I like this guy too where his mom was from. Kucinich's history of standing up for whats right and his early on stance against the war's legalness and moral wrongness was dead on.

[leftist_rebel1569]

91. first of all, PLEASE spell my name right

It's a pet peeve.

also, explain this sentence please -

If you are anything like the ledtis rebel your log on name indicates, simply check the record on your own nad not campaign claims.

i'm sorry, but I don't get what you're trying to say...

[Nicholas_J]

109. Simply on a political scale

Kucinich is the candidate who is actually the closest thing to anything that could be described as a "leftist" if you are one.

Dean's record as governor actually places him further to the right of Lieberman in all practical matters, as Dean, of all of the candidates is the only one of them to have advised cutting social services and medical programs and other social program in order to balance budgets and has firmly and consistantly oppposed the creation a progressive income tax system in Vermont in order to prevent cutting such programs.

P.S.

Sorry about not using your full and crorect login.

[diamondsoul]

94. Some minor disagreements

"Kucinich is the right candidate at the wrong time."

I can say that about Edwards, and see it so I understand why people would say the same about Kucinich, but obviously I don't agree with this.

"The fact that a candidate with a record as CONSEREVATIVE as Deans is conmsidered a top tier democrat is a clear indication that the American public, even the Democrats are simply and extremely conservative. But Dean could not run on his own record, so he is playing centrist/liberal/whatever those who he is talking to him wish to hear in order to get those who are dissatisfied with DLC centrism to vote for him."

I can't agree with this either. Dean may be polling top-tier for the moment but the polls also show the field is still wide open with plenty of unclaimed votes to put even the lowest polling candidates in the running before it's over. Furthermore, I absolutely believe there are more Progressives than any other voting block in this country. The problem isn't that we aren't out here, it's that we're not hearing about the candidate we can actually be moved to support.

That candidate, sorry "Deanies", is Dennis Kucinich. Now I say this because I've been told repeatedly that the candidates have to stick to the established formula for winning a nomination by one of the two main parties. I have no idea who the hell decided there was some rule about the formula, but I do know it's left one hell of a lot of people unrepresented, invisible and forgotten by every other politician out there. We all just flipped the whole system the bird and decided not to waste our time voting for people who never once thought of us anyway.

Kucinich brought me back to National Politics, and I can promise you I will not be the only one nor am I even CLOSE to being the last. All the people I've spent the past 10 or more years commiserating with will come to the polls with me, along with millions more just like us, and why? Because I have every intention of doing what the press won't do- showing the invisible people we DO have someone who thinks of us.

[no name no slogan]

102. My story is very similar to yours

Hi diamond, my story is very very similar to yours.

I was a Democratic activist all thru college (1987-1991), and a good party member to boot. I went to my state convention twice, and supported the good "obvious choices" on many occasions. I was the co-coordinator of my campus's Dukakis '88 effort, even though my views were best represented by Jesse Jackson.

Back then, I used to worry about selecting a candidate who was "electable"-- not too liberal, mushy on the issues, able to flip-flop faster than a 5lb. walleye on the dock after you've fished him out of the lake. It appears the DNC thought that way too.

And what has this "centrism" gotten the Dems? No popular vote majority for president since 1976, loss of the US House and Senate, and a loss of governorships.

Clearly, taking the right turn is not working for the Dems.

In the 90s, I still supported the Dems on the local level in their campaigns-- I even did websites for legislative candidates. But finally, this time, we progressives have one of our own we can support, without reservation-- Dennis Kucinich!

[leftist_rebel1569]

96. okay, you guys have me convinced now

He seems pretty good...but I still dunno whether or not I want ot back the guy or not. Thanks for your opinions, though...

god, I was so close to having 100 replies, too...:(

[JohnKleeb]

97. at least you got this much replies

[leftist_rebel1569]

98. but I wanted 100!

One of my little goals to reach before school started was to start a thread that gets 100 posts. But, I guess it's a bit late for that anyways...:(

[LWolf]

107. okay, here goes.

It's too late to hit 100 before school starts, but you can still hit 100.

We just need to spend more time convincing you! :evilgrin:

Here's a suggestion:

Go to http://www.kucinich.us/

and watch the "This is the moment" video. Scroll down a little on the right hand side of the page.

Then come back and tell me if you're really convinced now!

[leftist_rebel1569]

108. YES! I HAVE A THREAD

with 100 replies! Thanks everyone! :yourock: