From ABC's The Note--Another Dean flipflop?

[flpoljunkie]

The Wall Street Journal 's Jackie Calmes reports that Dean "plans a 'tax reform' plan preserving middle-class taxes at current levels. That's a switch from his call to repeal all Bush tax cuts and fund health care. Kerry blasted that as a tax on the middle class."

Here's something we'd add: In his stump speeches nowadays, Dean says that he'd get rid of as many tax cuts "as we can" … auguring a slow move to the position that some middle class tax reductions may have to be kept.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/TheNote/TheNote.html

[KC21304]

1. And two more flip -flops noted by Slate.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087877/

[w4rma]

14. On that Slate article smear (no changes on position)

…
MISLEADING THE AUDIENCE?

And the Dean campaign issued a statement that said Lieberman had misled the audience by using a paraphrase from the Washington Post story, not a direct quote from Dean.
…
http://www.msnbc.com/news/962135.asp?0cv=CA00

No change of position on the number of U.S. troops in Iraq:

Dean Presents 7-Point Plan for Multilateral Reconstruction in Iraq
Wednesday April 9, 2003
…
A NATO-led coalition should maintain order and guarantee disarmament.
Civilian authority in Iraq should be transferred to an international body approved by the U.N. Security Council.
…
A democratic transition will take between 18 to 24 months, although troops should expect to be in Iraq for a longer period.
…
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5364&news_iv_ctrl=1441

Also, this statement in the article is wrong:
The best thing Dean does during the debate is refuse to pander to the Albuquerque audience by spewing tortured Spanish

…
Dr. Dean, who speaks Spanish more smoothly than any of his rivals, largely because of a summer he spent as a teenager working on a Florida ranch with Cuban immigrants, weighed in with a full sentence saying his health care plan in Vermont covered everyone under age 18.
…
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/05/politics/campaigns/05DEBA.html?pagewanted=2

[Nicholas_J]

35. Slates been wailing on Dean since the end of July:

Howard Dean's Low-Rent Allure
Taking a ride on McFun with the presidential candidate.


http://slate.msn.com/id/2086258/

But since the Washington Post article. Dean is not goinmg to be able to go to the bathroom without reporters knowing what hew ate yesterday. Its open season on Dean for the media, the top tier candidates are going to play taking the high road, and the lower tier candidates are going to attack Dean mercilessly. DLc has this onne plotted put perfectly.

[demnan]

2. You mean he actually listened to Lieberman?

x(

[JI7]

3. it says he "plans"

i will believe it when or if he actually does it. but i don't take the wall street journal itself to be credible. at the debates he opposed it which was only yesterday.

[Freddie Stubbs]

4. Good for him

Telling the middle class that he is going to raise their taxes isn't exactly a winning foumula.

[Larkspur]

5. This middle class taxpayer did NOT get a tax cut, so I have no problem

with Dean replealing all of Bush's tax cuts. As a single and child-free person, I did NOT get a tax cut.

On top of not having a federal tax cut, my taxes -- property and state -- have increased because the federal government cut funds to the states, who cut funds to towns and cities. My property taxes are being raised primarily to fund the local schools, which I don't use. I'm getting socked with local and state taxes thanks to Dubya's tax plan and my Repub governor's mismangement of the state's budget.

Most middle class folks were happy with the tax package that Bill Clinton had in place prior to Dubya taking over, so it's not raising middle class folks' taxes by repealing Dubya's since they have NOT helped the middle class and the economy.

[flpoljunkie]

6. Tell that to the family of four who will have to pay $2,000 more in taxes

if all of the Bush tax cuts are rolled back.

[Kolesar]

8. What about the voters who do not have minor age children?

My mother's income has been fixed since 1980 when the mill closed--she could use some tax relief. What about those getting lean wages in the service sector while trying to go to college? They could use tax relief. None of them got tax relief.

[flpoljunkie]

9. The Repugs are not interested in helping people like your mother...

All the Democrats are.

[virtualobserver]

13. Since Dean explained clearly that he intends.....

......to reform the tax system and give middle class relief and explained it in a Wall Street Journal editorial two weeks ago, why are you still making that argument and why did Kerry make it when Dean clearly is saying something else.

[deutsey]

17. I'm part of a family of five (the dad/husband)

I'd rather have that money we got go back into building up our national infrastructure, frankly.

Wasn't there a report that came out saying how our infrastructure is falling apart? That's not the legacy I want to leave my kids.

[Nicholas_J]

68. In Florida as well

For the most part, no taxes were increased in order to adjust for the states loss of funding to from the federal government.

Most working class people who did not own property but rent got a noticable increase in their paychecks if they were earning 30,000 dollars, and did not see any particular increase in other forms of taxation. SO this argument is political bull. It is a joke and an inaccurate way of trying to protect a terrible fiscal move that is purposefully designed to burden the poor and middle class more in order to get rid of the deficit. Dean was notorious for saddling the poor and middle class, and protecting thr rich in Vermont by shifting the tax burden in EXACTLY the same way that Bush tried to do it.

Getting rid of the Bush tax cuts is NOT going to get rid of the higher taxes people who live in states that have had to raise their consumtion, property and excise taxes in order to adjust or cuts from the federal money even if those funds start being snet again. Becasue they are running deficits, they as well as the federal government running deficits, they are going to STILL be paying those higher states rates, adn Dean is going to cut their paychecks by re-in stating middle class taxation, which no matter how you and he ties to spin it is RAISING taxes.

When Clinton raised taxes in order to elimiate the deficit, the increases were primarily on the rich. But state taxes DID not increase. Reversing the Bush tax cuts will not bering the nation back to CLinton Prosperity.


It will send the economy into a tailspin and the poor and middle class into third world style poverty.

[stickdog]

82. Yep. No rents have gone up in the last 10 years.

No siree.

[w4rma]

83. {/sarcasm} I thought I'd add the tag for the sarcastically challenged(n/t)

[virtualobserver]

10. The Kerry \ Lieberman arguments mean that Republicans win

It means that we are arguing about what is right and wrong on their terms.

Repealing a tax cut that never should have occurred is a stupid issue for Democrats to raise.

[blm]

19. Dean said last January the others wanted to raise taxes

on the people of NH after they supported Bush's taxcuts for the wealthiest.

Was that constructive? No.

Was it even true? No...none of them voted for Bush's taxcut.

Let's give Dean a pass, though.

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/local2003/012303dean_2002.shtml

I can't wait for those four guys from Congress to come up here and explain to us why they wanted to raise your property taxes after they supported a tax cut for the wealthiest people in America," he said.

Dean also criticized his opponents for voting to give Bush a "blank check" on military intervention in Iraq - and, now, changing their tune on the issue.

"Today, they're running around telling you folks they're all anti-war," he said. (Later, he acknowledged that Lieberman's vote was consistent with the senator's comparatively "hawkish" position on Iraq.) "We're never going to elect a president that does those things. If I voted for the Iraq resolution, I'd be standing in favor, supporting it right now in front of you."

Dean said he would have voted instead for the Biden-Lugar resolution, which he said supported disarming Saddam using multilateral action, and which did not call for a "regime change."

[Nicholas_J]

42. That another inaccuracy.

Ever Dem in 2000 had to come up with some sort of alternative tax cut plan in order to deal with the popularity of the Bush plan. ANd Gore had to run promising a middle class tax cut.

[bread_and_roses]

45. I understand your ire, but...

you do use the schools. That is, if you care to live in a society with educated people, whether you have a child in school or not. But your frustration is, believe me, shared by those property owners who ARE parents, and who have seen the entire burden of education gradually shifted onto their local backs. I would like to see any of these candidates talking about fair funding for schools...making federal aid predicated on the kids in the inner cities getting the same per pupil funding as the kids in Scarsdale. If the issue interests you at all, check out NY's Alliance for Quality Education.

on edit: I do understand that expecting any "candidates talking about fair funding for schools...making federal aid predicated on the kids in the inner cities getting the same per pupil funding as the kids in Scarsdale." is not on the cards. But it is important to realize, I think, that the burden of local and state taxes are one reason that people making $100,000 yr. feel "oppressed" by their taxes. (If anyone wants to make hay of that, yes, I know very well that most people don't make that much - but a lot of voters do, for example a teacher and a manager could easily be in that range). I am far from enamoured of Dean, but supporting tax relief for the "middle class" is a smart thing to do. Why don't the Democrats concentrate on progressive taxation for the wealthy, and eliminating corporate loopholes?

[Larkspur]

65. No, I don't use schools

And my mother, who was a widow raising 3 kids on her own and was not rich, sent me to Catholic schools, so I was not a product of public education. My mother paid for my education and she made sure that I learned

I don't mind supporting public schools per se, but I think that parents, who get tax credits for having kids, should pay higher property taxes supporting schools than those of us who don't have kids, especially when it comes to extracurricular activities. In my area, property taxes are being raised not to support basic education, but to become giant baby sitters for the kids via extracurricular activities (not all are sports) because the parents aren't home.

If I could trust that parents actually prepare their kids for school and encourage them to learn, then I wouldn't be so angry at my taxes being raised to support schools. My mother, who was a teacher, saw the degradation of parenthood when she was teaching in public schools during the mid-1970's thru mid 1980's. She concluded that the kids, who were chronic disrupters in class, were the result of bad or ignorant parents and my mother thought that these parents should be required to reimburse the taxpayers for the amount of money wasted on disciplining their brats.

What I want is accountability from the parents. Dean had a program in Vermont which allowed every parent to have a visit from a social worker, who could assist them with how to become a parent. This helped decrease child abuse. Most child-free would support this program, but think that it should also happen BEFORE people become parents. Too many people in this country bring kids into the world without thinking about the consequences. Having children is a choice, not a legal requirement.

[Trajan]

7. Every human being ....

Is imperfect and prone to miscalculate and REcalculate their beliefs and opinions ...

Those who would denigrate those human beings apparently expect perfection .... but politicians arent perfect gods: they are human beings ....

Liebermann happens to be another imperfect human being .... even a broken watch is right twice a day ....

[killbotfactory]

11. He's been open to middle class tax cuts if we can afford it.

He hasn't come out with a final plan so they are probably running numbers. He wants to get rid of Bush's tax cut and start over. If he can work a tax cut into it, good.

[burr]

12. primary just getting better everyday!!!

Kemp-Forbes-and Gramm :7

[sandnsea]

15. He's been saying this for at least a year

Sometimes he says people will choose to give up their tax cuts for health insurance. Obviously he believes they got some if they have to give them up. Other times he says he'd like to repeal almost all, keep some middle class tax cuts, various other versions. Since at least last September he's presented both views. It's not a new flip flop, it's Dean wanting to have it both ways like he does with almost every other issue.

[RamboLiberal]

16. Oh Good Grief can't he work out his positions

Or do we want to be like the friggin media and make sure a candidate has to stick like glue to every position or risk being labeled wishy-washy or a liar.

I favor Dean and Clark, but I want to see the Dem candidate establish the winning position that gets Whistle-Ass out of the people's house.

[sandnsea]

20. For a year?

No, he and his supporters have made a big tadoo out of repealing all the Bush tax cuts in order to give all Americans healthcare. Big bashing of the other candidates for being Bush-lite. I'm sick of Dean and his wishy-washy campaign and all the justifications every time it comes out that he's never been clear from the beginning; or worse, is 'evolving' on the issue. If he wasn't sure where he stood on the issue, he shouldn't have said he was and he certainly shouldn't have been slamming other Democrats on it.

[ModerateMiddle]

24. I agree with you

evolving and changing your mind as facts come in, or frankly, as facts change in this mess of an administration. But having dis'ed the other Dems for having a position closer to where he now is, he really ought to apologize.

[Nicholas_J]

43. Dean always has done that..

He give a kernal of something that everyone inb his audience can interpret as support for their own beleifs, but when he gets into office all Dean does is cut budgets and state that trying to keep the very programs he promised to start is fiscal irresponsibility.

And uses government funds on projects that companie would have to pay for on thie own if Dean wasnt their pal.

[stickdog]

84. Yeah, Dean will be beholden to all those who big corporations who

contributed $25 to his campaign.

[w4rma]

85. {/sarcasm} :-) (n/t)

[valphoosier]

18. Rethinking views is bad?

Just because Dean has rethought many of his views, does that mean that he is pandering? I dont' think it does....

For example, saying that other countries should observe AMERICAN labor standards could be seen as pandering to labor (and, indeed, would help dean with labor), and changing that position to advocating INTERNATIONAL labor standards is move that might hurt him politically (with labor), but it is a legitimate policy correction from his previous (what must have been either an error or a policy statement that was not thought through) error in stating "American labor standards".

That's just one example but, just because Dean changes his positions on some issues doesn't mean that he's pandering. We need a president who is willing to admit when he is wrong. Dean, in this campaign, has shown that ability.

[Nicholas_J]

46. Not just rethinking views

Dean always remains vague about issue, and he is well now to say what one group wishes to hear about his point of vire, leaving out enough details to make a particular group or individual belelve that Deans point of view is alighed with his point of view.

Dean will tell people about his environmantal accopmplishments, but no let them know that if it comes down to accommodating buig business and the environment, big business will generally get its way.

Dean in the last ten years has shifted his stance on the death penalty 3 times alone.

As lieuenent governor he has cited that he supported and got "life sentences"into Vermont rather than the death penalty. In 1992 he totally opposes the death penalty as it is always possible that you will kill an innocent person, thann 1997, he shifts again towards the death penalty,and again shifts as presidential candidate towards harsher punishements.

THe problem with Dean is that his entire argument and set of shifts is really not base on anything except the fact that in the U.S. it is not easy to win the presidency if you do not support the death penalty, which is after all one of Americas dearest traditions.

The problem is that Deans original stance WAS the correct one.

Nothing has proven that more than the fact that one third of the people who have been on death row for the last ten years have been totally exhonorated due to the introduction of new DNA evdence being present.

Deans moronic statemtns on meet the press:

Dean: You know, I had said this before and I’ll say it again: I don’t think what’s cheap and what’s not cheap has a bearing on whether you use the death penalty or not. Other people have said it’s cheaper to do the death penalty because you get rid of them. You don’t have to give them room and board for life. Those kinds of arguments are irrelevant here. So I just—life without parole, which we have which I actually got passed when I was lieutenant governor— the problem with life without parole is that people get out for reasons that have nothing to do with justice. We had a case where a guy who was a rapist, a serial sex offender, was convicted, then was let out on what I would think and believe was a technicality, a new trial was ordered and the victim wouldn’t come back and go through the second trial. And so the guy basically got time served, and he was the man who murdered a 15-year-old girl and raped her and then left her for dead and she was dead. So life without parole doesn’t work either. If life without parole worked 100 percent of the time, there’d be no need for the death penalty because I agree with the bishop. Vengeance should never be a piece of this. As human beings, we all want to get revenge. That should never part of public policy, to get revenge, but the trouble is that life without parole is not perfect either and the victims in that case are 15- and 12-year-old girls. That is every bit as heinous as putting to death someone who didn’t commit the crime.

http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp?0sl=-13

And his rethink of the death penalty rings of the allegorical stories told by republicans about not requiring seat belts becasue of one person who they knew who got killed by one, or not raising the minimum wage becasue they knew a guy who lost his job when the minimum wage was raised by 25 cents.

The horse pucks he spews about only appying the death penalty after people get a fair trial, is ridiculous when you realize that it is ALWAYS possible for an innocent person to be accused and executed.

So in the end, what Dean is really saying is that he beleives that in order to make sure a guilty person gets executed, he is willing to allow some innocent people to die....

When you combine this with Deans other actions regarding judicial appointees and he cutting of finds to public defenders, and firing the person who managed to get federal grants to replace Deans cuts in order to make sure indigent dedendants at least recieved a semblence of a fair trial:


Support Your
Colleagues Under Siege
•
After fighting the “good fight”
as head of the Vermont defender
system for eight years, Defender
General Robert Appel has just
been notified that the Governor will
not reappoint him. Vermont news-
papers report that Robert’s zealous
advocacy to obtain resources and
other initiatives to support and im-
prove Vermont’s indigent defense
system had many times put him at
odds with the states chief executive

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:OpvVyQ9UsIkJ:www.nlada.org/DMS/Documents/1007060084.73/ACCD%2520Executive%2520Summary,%2520Vol%25201%2520No%25203.PDF+%22Robert+Appel%22+%22Federal+Grant%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&client=REAL-tb

or

http://www.nlada.org/DMS/Documents/1007060084.73/ACCD%20Executive%20Summary,%20Vol%201%20No%203.PDF


Vermont Defender General Robert Appel Not Re-Appointed to Post: Underscores the Value of Indigent Defense Commission Model and Need for Independence of the Defense Function

August 17, 2001 - In August, Vermont Governor Howard Dean appointed Matthew Valerio as Defender General ending the tenure of Robert Appel, who held the post for over eight years. In Vermont, the Defender General serves at the will of the Governor. The appointment of a new Defender General had been rumored for many months, because of public disagreements Mr. Appel and Governor Dean had over the funding of the state's indigent defense system. (Further details to be published in the next issue of The Spangenberg Report).


http://www.spangenberggroup.com/pr_081701.html



For the defense
August 16, 2001
(from the Editorials section)
Dean chose not to reappoint Appel for a third four-year term as defender general, the state official who heads the state’s public defender program. In appointing Valerio, of Proctor, the new defender general, Dean had kind words for Appel.

But Appel had clashed with Dean on numerous occasions in his efforts to secure for his office the resources necessary to fulfill his duties conscientiously.

Just two years ago Dean tried to prevent Appel from accepting a $150,000 federal grant aimed at assisting defendants with mental disabilities. For Dean to block a government agency from receiving federal money was unusual in itself. But Dean’s openly expressed bias against criminal defendants provided a partial explanation.

Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.

The problem with giving a disproportionate share of state resources to prosecution and enforcement is that it throws the justice system out of kilter. A just result occurs in court only when the prosecution and defense both are ably represented.

http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792

Of course, since Dean supporters object to ALL editorials, they will object to the last article, but the editorial gives an editors opinions or real decisions made by Dean.

Deans made budget cuts to public defenders, but increased police budgets and prosecutors budgets. These are facts.

The only thing that makes the editorial personal is that it states that the editorial board thinks these cuts are bad ideas.

When you combine Dean shifting stance on the death penalty, and his abuse of his authority as governor to create an imbalanced system of justice in Vermont one must stae than rethinking ones position on an issue is not always wrong.

But they certainly are when you do that rethink based on your own emotional reaction to some crimes, and not think about the cases in which the reverse happens and it is the accused who is the victim of the state.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

48. Who objects to editorials? Here's a good one

Here's a much more recent one from the Rutland Herald

http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/58788

Excerpt:
As Dean leaves office it is possible to point to areas of accomplishment with which Vermonters of both parties can identify. These include Dean’s aggressive efforts to conserve open lands and his determination to extend health care to all Vermonters. The details of his programs were subject to partisan differences, but his agenda touched on values most Vermonters appreciate and understand: love of the environment and responsibility for our neighbors.

On that sad day when Dean assumed office in August 1991, few would have guessed that he would grow into the role of governor with such relish and aplomb. Now that he is departing, Vermonters appreciate the job he has done and the gracious manner in which he has made his exit.

-----------------------
I just had to counter that silliness about editorials. Some will be positive, and some negative.

[dsc]

21. The curious standards of Dean bashers

I looked, in vain it must be said, for anything written by, spoken by, or uttered by Dean, a spokesman for Dean, an employee of Dean, or heck even Dean's dog that stated, implied, or in any way suggested, that Dean had changed his position. What we have here is third degree hearsay. A reporter at the note is told by an employee of the WSJ, that they heard that . . . Is there no level to which Dean bashers won't sink?

[sandnsea]

22. *sigh*

tsk tsk tsk, you know better than that. I've posted 3 separate articles/interviews, to you, with quotes, on the matter. One of which specifically stated Dean was going to release a plan in September and it might not repeal all the Bush tax cuts. The first one was from Aug or Sept 2002. I'm not going to go back and forth on it again, I'm certainly not going to repost the articles you've already read. But you know he hasn't been consistent, while bashing the other candidates as 'Bush-lite' at the very same time.

[dsc]

23. Maybe you need to post those again

First you posting nothing whatsoever saying anything about any future economic plan. Certainly not to me.

You did post things you claimed were evidence of flip flops but they weren't. One was a quote to the effect of "We need to repeal all of the President's tax cuts. We might have some stimulative tax cuts." I know this is a paraphrase and I am too lazy to go hunting. But I know that one part said President's while the other didn't. You pretended they both said President's. Again curious standards for curious people.

[sandnsea]

28. I sure did

Not doing it again. Yes, you tried to differentiate between the 'President's' tax cuts and the 'Bush' tax cuts. I can't even begin to comprehend those standards, so just say what you will. I happen to believe you really know better.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

40. I would like to know

why that poster can claim I responded to something they didn't even post (and all but call me a liar) yet I can't point out that they were dishonest in doing so. This poster claimed, falsely, that I had distinguished between Bush's tax cuts and the President's tax cuts. Had your board not been down I would have posted that link but I had to leave before it came back up. The link bore me out. No where in that quote was the word Bush. This is crap. By the time you removed that post there was no doubt who was right on the merits as I had already provided the link and the text to back me up. That poster, refused to provide that quote and dishonestly reported what it said. Yet their dishonest charge against me stands and my honest, backed up charge against them is deleted. How is that fair?

[dsc]

31. Here is your quote

and the link. I would like you to point out the word BUSH within it.

"All the cuts, though there are some tax cuts that we would look at as an economic-stimulus package. But right now the President's tax cuts are so irresponsible and so foolish that I would repeal all of them. The kinds of things I like in tax policy are things like rapid depreciation, with fixed time periods of eligibility. But the such a mess that it's better to start all over again."


www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=28342

Your post is 37 on that thread. Again, the word BUSH doesn't appear anywhere in that quote. You claimed it does.

[sandnsea]

32. Read Post #29

Which I posted previously, although it's possible you missed it. It's concise and to the point.

And I am not going to play some bizarre word games defining the difference between 'the President's tax cuts' and 'Bush tax cuts'.

[DrFunkenstein]

25. We Keep Digging Deeper

<>

[dsc]

26. Please

point out from this quoted article where Dean, Dean's spokeman, an employee of Dean, or anyone affiliated with Dean in any way, shape, manner, or form say a god damned word about taxes. I looked and there is not one god damned word. Not one. If you are saying I am lying here than back it the hell up. BTW the part of the article quoted is on the order of 25 to 30 paragraphs down.

[DrFunkenstein]

27. "If you are saying I am lying"

Um, it's a picture of a dog.

[sandnsea]

29. It's called reading comprehension

Some have read more than one article on Dean and know what he says. And I'll just go ahead and repost the damn quote one more time, the third one that is crystal clear but that was also said in Sept 2002. So it's rather easy to put all of the articles together and come to the conclusion that Dean has done more than flip flop. He's been peddling two views at the same time while pretending to be a straight-shooter. That's why some people say he's a 'wink wink' liberal and others say he's a centrist and still others say he's 'hard to categorize'. Again, say whatever you want, but I really suspect you know better.

TT: You’d reverse Bush’s tax cut, I gather…

Dean: Not all of it, almost all of it…

http://www.txtriangle.com/archive/1049/coverstory.htm

[dsc]

39. Two things

One, you had not posted this anywhere in the thread you inaccurately claimed that you had. You publicly accused me of "making distinctions between Bush's tax cuts and the President's tax cuts" when you had not once posted this quote anywhere that I saw it. In point of fact you posted this quote only AFTER making that accusation. You basically called me a liar by doing that and you in point of fact were the one who wasn't telling the truth.

Two, here you did produce what you said you would. Again, only after all but calling me a liar for saying you hadn't. But you finally did. Dean was obviously stating he would save some part of the tax cuts (the interview doesn't say what part) but this interview was given when the deficit was hundreds of billions less than it is now (around $200 billion vs $450 billion) and before the Iraq are ($0 vs $100 billion in cost). This is the situation Clinton faced (twice as big deficit than he had been told) only this time before he takes office. The choice now is between borrowing, cutting spending, and raising taxes. I prefer the third option.

[sandnsea]

49. This is just ridiculous

I posted two quotes in our first 'debate'. The one with the President's tax cuts where you said they weren't the same thing as the 'Bush' tax cuts.

Then, in another 'debate' I posted the third quote because it specifically said the word 'Bush' which seems so important to you.

In all three quotes between 2002 and a month ago, he said the same thing. He'd consider repealing some of the tax cuts.

That's what happened.

[dsc]

56. I never said any such thing

and unlike you I sited the thread. No where in your quote and no where in what I wrote do I say the President's tax cuts aren't Bush's tax cuts. YOUR QUOTE, THE ONE YOU HAD SUPPLIED IN THAT THREAD, DIDN'T HAVE THE WORD BUSH IN IT. It wasn't the first word, the last word, or any word in between. Instead the quote had tax cuts (which Dean was considering) and the President's tax cuts (which he clearly wasn't). I am not allowed, for some bizarre reason, to call what you are doing here the name it is. But we both know what it is. Here, you did supply it, and you get a very different answer from me. It is precisely and exactly the answer I would have given you in the first thread had you actually provided the quote you FALSELY said you had.

Again, no where in the thread we are discussing, as opposed to here, did you provide any quote in which the word Bush was mentioned. No where did I write, not here nor in that thread, that there was some difference between Bush's tax cuts and the President's tax cuts. I did say, and stand behind, the idea that there are tax cuts proposals out there that are not the President's. That, and only that, is what I said. I am not allowed, for some bizarre reason, to say what you are doing but we both know what it is.

[polpilot]

34. and deeper and deeper. It's called digging one's self a deep hole!!!!

Dean '04...Climbing higher (while others dig deeper)

[polpilot]

33. Dean, as always reveals the perfect plan, unapologetically, and moves

on. The put upon defenders of the also rans whine as usual.

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The New Democratic Party

[Nicholas_J]

36. Dean

The Trojan Horse of the conservatives.

[burr]

37. john malcolm Kerry...

the FORBES of the DINO party. :smoke:

[blm]

38. Wrong Forbes.

.

[Nicholas_J]

44. Yeah the Guy who criticized the DLC

For the defense
August 16, 2001

(from the Editorials section)
Dean chose not to reappoint Appel for a third four-year term as defender general, the state official who heads the state’s public defender program. In appointing Valerio, of Proctor, the new defender general, Dean had kind words for Appel. But Appel had clashed with Dean on numerous occasions in his efforts to secure for his office the resources necessary to fulfill his duties conscientiously.

Just two years ago Dean tried to prevent Appel from accepting a $150,000 federal grant aimed at assisting defendants with mental disabilities. For Dean to block a government agency from receiving federal money was unusual in itself. But Dean’s openly expressed bias against criminal defendants provided a partial explanation.

Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.

http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792


Acted with the same judicial philosophy as George W. Bush and appointed judges with a conservative prosecutorial philosophy.

Compare that to Kerry and his position on Miguel Estrada.



http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792

[burr]

54. I thought it was the other way around...

If the DLC and folks like Zell rabidly shred Dean and Kucinich, will Kerry be next?

I will not get happiness from money or doing better than others. Only when my work, my ideals, and my dreams are adding in smallpart to the happiness of the commanwealth of which we all belong...can I achieve true happiness. Not by obtaining personal wealth at the expense and suffering of others.

Dean started this campaign with moderate ideals. Like Kerry he embraced the DLC Breaux approach to healthcare reform, which Breaux introduced at the beginning of the year. It became the "radically moderate" blueprint for these candidates when they released their plans later in the year, but now it is a standard for McGovernik Communism. Does the DLC have guiding principles, or do they just go with the neocon flow?

<http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=111&subid=137&contentid=251186>

Democrats once backed fiscal discipline. And now the DLC, which also backed these ideals, are now ripping those who do not backpedal. They will go after any candidate, including Kerry or Dean, that they deem unelectable or too specific on any issue.

[Nicholas_J]

41. I have been waiting for Dean to begin

Edging away form total tax cuts. Within a month he willslowly move away and his position will appear to be exactly the same as Kerry's, adn then Dean supporters will be praising his brilliance for his innovative idea.

All of us in other camps are waiting for his final gaff and he starts trying to state that the war in Iraq was justified.


The great part is that the media that gave Dean so much attention is jut going to continue pointing out all of Deans flops ,and Dean will inevitably lose the support of those who support him and actually are able to think for themselves.

This is happening on ABC. Slate, the Washinton Post the New York Times, and only a few days after labor day, the traditional kick off for campaigns.

It is not going to stop, and it most certainly siphon support for Dean towards other candidates.

There are a GREAT many voters who do NOT come to DU in order to get the wisdom and long complicated explanations of how tis is really not a flip flop, but evolving. Lot more people not on DU than on DU or on the Internet.

THis sort of media attention will most certainly cost Dean support.

I just love the media for doing it.


And yeah, Kerry was SO wealthy that:

Kerry acknowledges money "was tight" for him in those days. "I was spending all I had," he says. Regarding honoraria, which Congress banned in 1991, Kerry says: "I did not take honoraria from anyone who had anything in front of my committee."

Kerry also signed on as chairman of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, the fund-raising arm for Senate Democrats, for the 1987-1988 cycle. This would help him tap the network of national Democratic donors.

Kerry's current wife, Teresa Heinz, calls the late 1980s his "gypsy period." For months at a time he had no fixed address and crashed instead with his daughters when Julia was away or with Julia's brother David.

Sometimes, he stayed with a girlfriend who had been his former law partner, Roanne Sragow, now a district court judge in Massachusetts. (She declined to be interviewed.) Or he stayed with a Vietnam buddy or on a per diem basis in condos owned by wealthy contributors: developers Finch and Edward W. Callan, and lobbyist and campaign fund-raiser Robert Farmer. Eventually, he rented a one-room apartment in Washington and an apartment in Boston.

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/062003.shtml



As I said, Dean and his supporters will stoop to any misrepresentation.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nicholas_J]

50. You mean

Dean's supporters trying to imply that John Forbes Kerry is related to Malcolm Forbes is NOT a misrepresentation?

[w4rma]

79. Post 74

As I said, Dean and his supporters will stoop to any misrepresentation.

A new Prez Preferece poll
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=190456

Clark V Dean
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=196331

Dean supporters make up from 1/3 to 1/2 of all DUers. It is my opinion that calling 1/3 to 1/2 of all DUers people who "will stoop to any misrepresentation" is a personal attack on *me* and on 1/3 to 1/2 of all DUers.

I didn't say I'd tomestone Nic. I, basically, said I'd be talking with the moderators about getting permission to do that. I did send an alert and since Nic is here, it is obvious that they disagree with me.

This has nothing to do with Dean, Graham, Edwards, Kerry or any candidate. This is a personal and rude slur against me and 1/3 to 1/2 of all DUers, IMHO.

…
If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger. For example, if someone posts factually incorrect information, it is appropriate to say, "your facts are wrong," but it is not appropriate to say "you are a liar."
…
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#civility

[XanaDUer]

51. Well, then it's a good thing you're no longer a moderator...

because then you would be applying YOUR OWN rules to DU , and not the rules set up by the administrators.

Disagreement is not against the rules-and I was NEVER a moderator, and I know that, so why don't you?

Dean has misrepresented John Edwards and had to apologize, apologize to Graham, and for Dean's SS statements after lying about them on TV in front of millions of Americans.

[dsc]

58. which puts him way ahead of Nic

Nic has said, falsely, that Dean increased the sales tax (it was 5% when he arrived and 5% when he left).

Nic falsely said George Voinovich is a liberal.

Nic falsely said Dean brought the death penalty back to Vermont (he had sited a US case brought by Ashcroft's Justice Dept).

Nic falsely said that Dean signed a contempt order against a home school mother.

Nic falsely said that a poll conducted by Planned Parenthood was an internet poll. When confronted on that falsehood, he then said it had been limited to members of Planned Parenthood.

He apologized for zero of these false statements (nor for several others). I guess you only like honesty some of the time.

[XanaDUer]

60. I thought nicholas_j said not that he raised the sales tax, but the

various consumption taxes. Then he described them as sales taxes.

He apologized for the death-penalty statement in the very next post after he made it.

He did not state the Voinivich was liberal, but more liberal than Dean.

Nevertheless, it still does not excuse someone saying that if they were still a moderator that they would have a member tombstoned, which is more to the point.

It is an abuse of authority.

[Nicholas_J]

61. Yup

When I described the taxation position that Dean took, I statend that Dean raised consumption taxes and cut income taxes creating a regressive tax system effecting the poor and middle class more than the ric., Then gave a DESCRIPTION of consumption taxes, by stating that consuption taxes are things like property taxes, hotel taxes, taxes on tobacco, sales taxes, and then Deanies accused me of stating that Dean raised sales taxes.

Same thing with Voinovich. I stated Voinovich was more liberal than Dean. And since Voinivich opposed a tax cut that favored the rich, while Dean opposed taxing the rich at least Voinovich has one thing in his fiscal record that is more liberal than Deans record:





By the same token, though, he also supported raising taxes — as long as it wasn’t the income tax — when school funding crises and other issues arose that required it.

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may%5F03/may%5F19/news/reg%5Fvt0519a.asp

[dsc]

62. sorry you are flat out wrong

He stopped saying he raised sales taxes, but didn't apologize for doing so, only after I tracked down the facts.

He did call Voinovich a liberal, and even if he said what you said he said, it is still a flat out lie. I live in Ohio and have been governed by Voinovich for 8 years, and misrepresented by him in the Senate for 8 years, and worked in the city he was mayor of for 12 years. The man's enviromental record is appaling. He has been sued by Vermont among other states for violations of the Clean Air act. He appointed a man with a 0 rating, yes 0, from the Sierra Club to head the Ohio EPA (that would be Gary Suadonic). He has a 0 from NARAL, refused to support even basic gay rights, cut income taxes, raised cigarette and sales taxes (to build ballfields), voted against the state fair housing law, executed criminals, sponserd a law which makes our school districts go to the voters for even inflation based funding increases (thanks in large part to that law our school bulidings were the worst in the entire nation while we were the 10th per capita income). Care to defend the idea that his man is more liberal than any of our current candiates. Go ahead I can provide list, after list, after list of things this man did.

I will see if he apologized for the DP thing.

[Nicholas_J]

64. Nope

I NEVER stated Dean raised sales taxes..That is a purposeful misreprentation of my statements.

If i state he did so provide the link. Find a place where I printed "HOWARD DEAN RAISED SALES TAXES"

I stated Voinovich was more liberal than Dean, and you do not live in Vermont so you have not way of comparing, other than your personal belief about Dean. Deans record as governor for opposing and cutting classically liberal programs is greater than Voinovich's doing so.
So you personal opinion has no bearing. It is real recod that counts here.


I apologized for the Death Penalty statement after posting from a Progressive source that said he did.

[dsc]

66. show me where Dean did ANY of the following

I do live in Ohio and Voinovich did ALL OF THE FOLLOWING.

He appointed the man with the worst enviromental record in the Ohio Legislature, and that is quite a feat one must add, to head the Ohio EPA.

He has a 100% pro life record. He even goes further than I do as he opposes out right a rape and incest exception.

He has just about the worst enviromental record in the US Senate.

He has opposed all gay rights except he let stand Celeste's ban on firing gay state employees. He was against ENDA. Against anti hate crimes. Against giving gays these rights as a governor.

He voted against Ohio's fair housing law (for African Americans).

Show me where Dean did just one of these. Put up or shut up Nick.

[Nicholas_J]

69. Dean

Bought in the stastes worse polluter, changed the pollution standards to allow additional pollution, and DID not enforce those so called standards that suposedlywere better than the Kyoto Treaty's.

Dean has ordered budget cuts to state social progrtams that wqould have:

Medicaid cuts will affect thousands of Vermonters
January 23, 2002

By DAVID MACE

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — Tens of thousands of Vermonters would see their state health care benefits rolled back or cut off completely under Gov. Howard Dean’s proposed budget, which seeks to wring $16.5 million in savings from Medicaid.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41169.html

Dean refused to raise income taxes on the rich, in order to avoud these cuts, stating that the rich were overburdened:

Progressives call for higher taxes for rich
January 25, 2002

By JACK HOFFMAN

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — Vermont Progressives renewed their call Thursday for higher taxes on the wealthy in order to avoid some of the budget cuts that Gov. Howard Dean outlined earlier this week.

The Progressives said their proposal was designed to mirror the surcharges adopted during that last budget crisis, but they have not proposed an expiration date for the new surcharges.

Dean reiterated his opposition to raising the income tax shortly after the Progressives unveiled their tax plan. Dean contends Vermont’s marginal income tax rate — that is, the top rate paid by those in the highest income brackets — already is too high.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41293.html

Dean threatened to Veto a senate restoration of the finds he cut:

Senate adds money to budget, angers Dean
May 9, 2002

By ROSS SNEYD The Associated Press

MONTPELIER — Senators passed a 2003 state budget Wednesday that the governor made clear he would veto if it ever reached his desk.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/46513.html

Dean numerous times attepted to cut programs for the elderly, the blind and the disabled:


To the anger of more liberal members of his own party, he insisted that the tax increases be rolled back on schedule and then went on to work for additional tax cuts later in his tenure.

By the same token, though, he also supported raising taxes — as long as it wasn’t the income tax — when school funding crises and other issues arose that required it.

Throughout, he held a tight rein on state spending, repeatedly clashing with the Democrats who controlled the Legislature for most of his years as governor.

Dean trimmed spending or held down increases in areas held dear by the liberals. More than once, Dean went to battle over whether individual welfare benefits should rise under automatic cost of living adjustments. Liberals were particularly incensed when he tried that tactic on a program serving the blind, disabled and elderly, which he did several times.

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may%5F03/may%5F19/news/reg%5Fvt0519a.asp

Dean massively imbalanced the judicial system, doubling the number of people in prosons, while cutting the amount of monsey available to defend possibly innocent people:

Support Your
Colleagues Under Siege
•
After fighting the “good fight”
as head of the Vermont defender
system for eight years, Defender
General Robert Appel has just
been notified that the Governor will
not reappoint him. Vermont news-
papers report that Robert’s zealous
advocacy to obtain resources and
other initiatives to support and im-
prove Vermont’s indigent defense
system had many times put him at
odds with the states chief executive

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:OpvVyQ9UsIkJ:www.nlada.org/DMS/Documents/1007060084.73/ACCD%2520Executive%2520Summary,%2520Vol%25201%2520No%25203.PDF+%22Robert+Appel%22+%22Federal+Grant%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&client=REAL-tb

or

http://www.nlada.org/DMS/Documents/1007060084.73/ACCD%20Executive%20Summary,%20Vol%201%20No%203.PDF


Vermont Defender General Robert Appel Not Re-Appointed to Post: Underscores the Value of Indigent Defense Commission Model and Need for Independence of the Defense Function

August 17, 2001 - In August, Vermont Governor Howard Dean appointed Matthew Valerio as Defender General ending the tenure of Robert Appel, who held the post for over eight years. In Vermont, the Defender General serves at the will of the Governor. The appointment of a new Defender General had been rumored for many months, because of public disagreements Mr. Appel and Governor Dean had over the funding of the state's indigent defense system. (Further details to be published in the next issue of The Spangenberg Report).


http://www.spangenberggroup.com/pr_081701.html



For the defense
August 16, 2001
(from the Editorials section)
Dean chose not to reappoint Appel for a third four-year term as defender general, the state official who heads the state’s public defender program. In appointing Valerio, of Proctor, the new defender general, Dean had kind words for Appel. But Appel had clashed with Dean on numerous occasions in his efforts to secure for his office the resources necessary to fulfill his duties conscientiously.
Just two years ago Dean tried to prevent Appel from accepting a $150,000 federal grant aimed at assisting defendants with mental disabilities. For Dean to block a government agency from receiving federal money was unusual in itself. But Dean’s openly expressed bias against criminal defendants provided a partial explanation.
Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.
The problem with giving a disproportionate share of state resources to prosecution and enforcement is that it throws the justice system out of kilter. A just result occurs in court only when the prosecution and defense both are ably represented.

http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792

Need another three or four hundred articles indicating Deans republican and super consevative ideology?

Deans environmental record....


Stephanie Kaplan, a leading environmental lawyer and the former executive officer of Vermont's Environmental Board, has seen the regulatory process under Dean become so slanted against environmentalists and concerned citizens that she hardly thinks its worth putting up a fight anymore.

"Under Dean the Act 250 process (Vermont's primary development review law) and the Agency of Natural Resources (ANR) have lost their way," contends Kaplan. "Dean created the myth that environmental laws hurt the economy and set the tone to allow Act 250 and the ANR to simply be permit mills for developers."

Kaplan points to the "Environmental Board purge" in the mid-90s that allowed Dean to set the pro-development tone. In 1993, the Board issued an Act 250 permit to C&S Grocers in Brattleboro with conditions that restricted the diesel emissions from its heavy truck traffic. After C&S execs cried foul and threatened to move to New Hampshire, Dean broke gubernatorial precedent by publicly criticizing the Environmental Board for issuing what he called a "non-permit."

A year after receiving their public rebuke from Dean, four of the Environmental Board members ­ including the chair ­ were up for reappointment. With the not-so-subtle clues from Dean that he didn't approve of the Board's political direction, the Republican majority in the state senate shot down each and every one of their appointments, thus dramatically changing both the structure and climate of the Board.

"After the post-C&S purge," says Kaplan, "the burden of proof for Act 250 permits switched from being on the applicants -- where it's supposed to be -- to being on the environmentalists. That's why 98% of the permit requests are approved and only 20% ever have hearings."


http://www.counterpunch.org/colby02222003.html



Smith is no stranger to Dean's record, having tangled with the Dean administration on everything from mining in Danby to pesticide usage on Vermont's mega-farms. When Smith learned that Dean was holding a press conference at the Burlington Community Boathouse recently to celebrate his eco-legacy, she fired off e-mails to Vermont environmentalists calling for a protest of the event and asking if they were "going to let Governor Dean ride out on his white horse of environmental leadership?"

It was Smith who stumbled onto Dean's official gubernatorial Web site a couple of years ago and found a bucolic photo of her home town of Danby featured with this caption: "Time stands still here -- you might even forget when it's time to go home." Ironically, the location depicted in the photo was the same spot Dean was pushing to host a massive gas pipeline, a plan that would have required timber clear-cuts and other dramatic topographical changes. The Dean team removed the photo within a couple of weeks, but not before Smith made hay with his apparent hypocrisy.

"Dean's attempt to run for president as an environmentalist is nothing but a fraud," Smith told Seven Days. "He's destroyed the Agency of Natural Resources, he's refused to meet with environmentalists while constantly meeting with the development community, and he's made the permitting process one big, dysfunctional joke."

Those are not the words you'd expect to hear from an environmentalist if you relied on the mainstream press for your news. The Burlington Free Press, for example, has spent the last week putting one coat of varnish after another on Dean's tenure, including a rather smarmy salute to his eco-record. The word from those quarters is that Dean is a friend of the environment and has done nothing but anger the business community by slowing development and stymieing growth.

His record, however, shows just the opposite. Remember, when Dean took office there were 36 percent more small farmers in Vermont; there were no Wal-Marts, no Taft Corners big boxes, and no 100,000-hen mega-farms. Sprawl was not the issue du jour.

Interestingly, Dean told the Free Press last week that he wished the rest of the country was "more like Vermont." But it seems he's allowed Vermont to become more like the rest of the country.

http://www.vce.org/deanenvironmentomya.html


DAFM is a poor regulator
Vermont's agriculture is in crisis, and not just because the Northeast DairyCompact was not renewed. The state has not developed a strategy to promote healthy, sustainable farming. Once called Department of Agriculture whose mission was just about farmers and farming, DOA is now DAFM, Department of Agriculture, Food and Markets and the agency’s mission is all Vermonters. The written mission of DAFM is “to provide consumers and the Vermont agricultural community with the highest level of service possible including ensuring and enforcing quality standards for agricultural products, regulating pesticide use, providing information, technical and marketing assistance to farmers and producers and developing new markets for Vermont products.”

DAFM is not responsive, is not providing a high level of service, is not regulating pesticide use, is not providing information, and is not supportive of Vermont's dairy farmers. Something is terribly wrong when our agriculture policies expose Vermonters to unhealthy pesticides and infringe on the economic viability of our family farms. Vermonters should have a right to farm, but no one, not even farmers, have a right to pollute the waters of the state, nor do they have the right to expose neighbors to the increased risk of birth defects or cancers by their misuse of highly toxic pesticides. The right to farm that DAFM is protecting in Highgate is factory food production, at the expense of the family farm. Allowing collateral damage is not acceptable agricultural practice.

The legislature set up the Vermont Pesticide Advisory Council “to suggest programs for wise and effective pesticide use that lead to an overall reduction in the use of pesticides in Vermont.” In its 15 years of existence, VPAC has not dealt with the subject of the use of pesticides in agriculture.

Our Governor, our legislators and our courts have failed to protect Vermonters from the big money, corporate farming and chemical company interests whose agenda is being carried out by the current Agriculture Czar.

http://www.vtce.org/deancrisisagvt.html

Need more?


Got hundres and hundreds and hundres of simlar articles about Dean and his cronies.

Leon Graves Should not be re-confirmed as Commissioner of Agriculture
Commissioner of Agriculture Leon Graves has lost the respect of both farmers and the consumers of this state. By his actions, he has shown disdain for small farmers, thumbed his nose at laws set by the legislature and sold out to corporate special interests. The issues are many, but the common thread is that unprecedented amounts of lobby money have been involved and Graves has always moved in the direction of the money. For these reasons he should not be reconfirmed as commissioner.

The Vermont Egg Factory in Franklin County is a prime example. The Vermont Egg Factory has spent $11,000 in 1996 for lobbying. The Department of Agriculture knew about this project for at least a year before the public found out. There was ample evidence that this would be of great concern to the public. . In Maine and Connecticut, odor, traffic, fly infestation, environmental degradation and taxpayer costs have become the community's burden. And yet Graves has insisted on his option to use a complaint driven policy that gives him absolute power. Both section 4495 and the Large Farm Act take away local control and give it to exclusively to the commissioner.

Mr. Graves has worked closely with the owner of the Vermont Egg Factory: Mr. Breton, and his agents, helping them to anticipate problems. He went as far as skewing testimony at the Environmental Board hearing on behalf of Mr. Breton and factory farming in general. Mr. Graves created his own data to make the facility seem smaller. The plans filed with the Department of Agriculture show the final phase with a total of one million chickens; this was never mentioned in Mr. Graves' testimony.

Aerial spraying of Vermont's forests became an important issue when Mr. Graves did not follow the Agriculture Department's own rules for allowing a public review process, including advisement from the Vermont Pesticide Advisory Council. These rules were created to reduce pesticide dependence and usage in Vermont. Were Monsanto and Champion influencing his opinion?

http://together.net/~wudchuck/987_watchman_34.html

[dsc]

73. None of this, of course,

is remotely on point. You have repeatedly claimed that Voinovich is more liberal than Dean. Ohio is the second most polluted state (after Texas) in the entire nation (last I checked that included Vermont). Ohio has more high ozone days than any state of similar size in the nation (again that includes Vermont last I checked). Ohio's pollution got worse, while it got better in virtually every other state (including Vermont) during Voinovich's rule. You either don't know Voinovich's record or you are puposely ignoring it. The first case you are an ignoramous. The second a liar.

[DemBones DemBones]

63. I often see you and certain other Dean supporters accusing

Nicholas J of lying but that's a cheap shot anyone can make when they don't like the message, an ad hominem attack on the messenger, AKA "shoot the messenger."

What I don't see is you or other Dean supporters refuting what Nicholas J posts here. He isn't making these reports up but if you can show other reports that say something different, post the quotes and links so we can all see them. That's what I do when someone posts something inaccurate about Dennis Kucinich.

It seems to me that many Dean supporters have an arrogance about being part of this campaign that's presently doing well. Whenever it's pointed out that history indicates being the top dog this early in a race does not guarantee the nomination or that Dean has some questionable things in his record, posters are accused of "sour grapes" or not "getting it" about Dean. Maybe some people will jump on the Dean bandwagon on the basis of unproven assertions about Dean or ecstatic statements about Dean, but many of us want a bit more than that.

At present, Dean supporters are treating those who support another candidate the way Bush* treated the UN before he invaded Iraq. You might want to think about how that's working out for Bush*.

[dsc]

67. that is total bullshit

I have refuted him when he posted this crap and I have refuted him in seperate threads. As soon as I figure out how to go back beyond August in searching I will prove it. If you wish you can try to find the thread entitled The Truth about Dean and taxes, authored by me and the Truth about Dean part 2 also authored by me. In both threads, Nick says Dean raised sales taxes. In the first thread I hadn't found the link to disprove him but in the second I had. At no time in either thread did he apologize. Both you and he are flat out baldly wrong. ANd that is not unusual for either of you it should be noted.

On edit Do not bother searching. Evidently there is a memory hole on DU now. There are only 20 pages of stored threads and that is all that can be searched (the last date of threads I could find was exactly correspondent to the last date on the last page). I have no idea what happened to threads previous to that but they appear to be gone and unsearchable. Thus my thread appears to be gone forever. I know what he said on it but can't prove it.

[Nicholas_J]

70. Never said it.

I stated that Dean refused to raise income taxes on the rich, stated that Dean raised conmsumtion taxes, and then gave a list of the kind of thing consumption taxes are, and included salestaxes. at NO tile did i ever make the statement "DEAN RAISED SALES TAXES"


Prove it.

[Nicholas_J]

71. Never said it.

I stated that Dean refused to raise income taxes on the rich, stated that Dean raised conmsumtion taxes, and then gave a list of the kind of thing consumption taxes are, and included salestaxes. at NO tile did i ever make the statement "DEAN RAISED SALES TAXES"

You CHOSE tio turn that description list into a statement that i indicated that Dean raised the sales tax. That is NOT what I stated,
As usual misrepresent, misrepresent, misrepresent.

Just like Dean


Prove it.

[XanaDUer]

72. I remember the post...

nicholas_j never stated that Dean raised the sales tax. Instead, he stated Dean refused to raise income taxes but raised consumption taxes, which nicholas_j said were regressive. They harmed the poor and middle classes. He gave a list of taxes demonstrating the types of taxes that comsumption taxes are.

[dsc]

75. That is totally false

The only reason I posted the second thread was to dispute his lies on the sales tax. That was the one and only thing I added to it. That is just plain false. I remember clearly due to my not being able to disprove it totally the first time (I couldn't account for two years). Again, thanks to the memory hole I can't prove it but I know god damn well what he was saying as I wouldn't have written the second thread if hadn't been saying what he had.

[w4rma]

74. Do I disagree with Nic on Dean? Yes. Is my disagreement the reason? No.

As I said, Dean and his supporters will stoop to any misrepresentation.

A new Prez Preferece poll
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=190456

Clark V Dean
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=196331

Dean supporters make up from 1/3 to 1/2 of all DUers. It is my opinion that calling 1/3 to 1/2 of all DUers people who "will stoop to any misrepresentation" is a personal attack on *me* and on 1/3 to 1/2 of all DUers.

I didn't say I'd tomestone Nic. I, basically, said I'd be talking with the moderators about getting permission to do that. I did send an alert and since Nic is here, it is obvious that they disagree with me.

This has nothing to do with Dean, Graham, Edwards, Kerry or any candidate. This is a personal and rude slur against me and 1/3 to 1/2 of all DUers, IMHO.

…
If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger. For example, if someone posts factually incorrect information, it is appropriate to say, "your facts are wrong," but it is not appropriate to say "you are a liar."
…
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#civility

[sandnsea]

78. Talking of slurs

Lying, lying, lying, lying. That's what a Deanie said to me. I'm lying, lying, lying. Now that's a slur. I didn't feel the need to cry to the moderators, why do Deanies have to do it every time somebody posts anything that puts Dean in a bad light. It's the cause of half the problems. Whaaa! They're picking on Dean. Gads.

Some of us have had 'debates' with so many Deanies and gotten such a vast array of answers that 'misrepesentation' is about the kindest way to put it.

[w4rma]

81. Did they call you a liar? No.

They said you were "lying, lying, lying, lying" (your description, not mine). Nic, effectively, called 1/3 to 1/2 of all DUers liars:

As I said, Dean and his supporters will stoop to any misrepresentation. (Note the use of future tense.)

Read the rules:
…
If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger. For example, if someone posts factually incorrect information, it is appropriate to say, "your facts are wrong," but it is not appropriate to say "you are a liar."
…
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#civility

[dsc]

80. That liar thing needs changed

Too many liars are taking advantage of that to lie with impunity. This thread has several perfect examples of just this conduct. Above here one poster says I said something I didn't even come close to saying. When I accurately called that a lie my post was removed (despite my siting the post in quesiton) and theirs stayed. We need to be able to call lies lies.

[MercutioATC]

52. S'ok, w4rma...read the rules that apply once an nominee is chosen...

...we're going to lose a few troublemakers around here if Dean gets the nomination.

[Nicholas_J]

53. And have a lot of people

whining if he doesnt.

[DemBones DemBones]

55. As Liberty Chick said, it's a good thing you're not a moderator if

you would take personal issues into moderating the forums. Nicholas J posts articles about Dean's waffling on positions and misrepresentations. You complain. You and other Dean supporters accuse him of being a "Dean basher" and "attacking" Dean.

This is politics. If you can't support Dean against Nicholas J's charges --most, if not all, of which are charges made by journalists -- and argue Dean's case on its merits, you should admit that you cannot refute what Nicholas J has posted.

I have seen Dean supporters arguing that Nicholas J is a troublemaker who doesn't belong here, however this is not Dean Underground but Democratic Underground and any Democrat can post here so long as they obey the rules.

[Nicholas_J]

57. Yup

95 percent of the articles I post come from journalists, well respected liberal and progressive political commentator like Alex Cockburn and Norm Solomon, editorials from Vermont Newspapers who rewport on Deans actions but then in editorials state that they beleive such policies and decisions are bad, as well as his style of campaigning being an embarassment to his state.

Anything that they do not like, or reflects on actual decisions Dean has made and were not popular, become invalid or bashiing sources.

[XanaDUer]

59. Using a moderator position as a personal-issue vendetta

is NOT what DU is for. It's kinda scary, actually , that a member would want to do that. :(

[w4rma]

76. I'll repeat my post 74 here for you also

As I said, Dean and his supporters will stoop to any misrepresentation.

A new Prez Preferece poll
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=190456

Clark V Dean
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=196331

Dean supporters make up from 1/3 to 1/2 of all DUers. It is my opinion that calling 1/3 to 1/2 of all DUers people who "will stoop to any misrepresentation" is a personal attack on *me* and on 1/3 to 1/2 of all DUers.

I didn't say I'd tomestone Nic. I, basically, said I'd be talking with the moderators about getting permission to do that. I did send an alert and since Nic is here, it is obvious that they disagree with me.

This has nothing to do with Dean, Graham, Edwards, Kerry or any candidate. This is a personal and rude slur against me and 1/3 to 1/2 of all DUers, IMHO.

…
If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger. For example, if someone posts factually incorrect information, it is appropriate to say, "your facts are wrong," but it is not appropriate to say "you are a liar."
…
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#civility

[RevolutionStartsNow]

77. Posting articles is one thing, ugly name calling is another

While repeated postings of the same articles is annoying, it's certainly not against the rules, nor does Nic corner the market on this.

But Nic has said that Dean is "a monster", "a petty tyrant", and "in a way worse than Bush". And that was just in one post. There are many other examples of this. He also once claimed that "if anyone is responsible for the Iraq war, it's Dean".

In another post, he suggested that Dean quitting his medical practice to go into politics was probably saving lives. Once I called him on his behavior and he responded with the subject line "You are such a *****" (which was of course deleted by the mods).

He does seem to have toned down the ugly attacks a little bit recently, or maybe I just don't notice anymore. This guy has a track record here that lots of people remember.

He's obviously smarter than the average bear, and I suppose I prefer his posts to those who just say "Dean can't win!" or "You're a bunch of 2-year olds!", but he is not above reproach.