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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 11:25 AM
Original message
"It's not time to put a rookie in charge of America's future."
This is what Lieberman said about Dean after the debates.

The Hartford Courant Focus: Latino Vote -- No Clear Winners Or Losers As Presidential Candidates Bid For Key Support

<SNIP>
...the senator said he was ready to criticize others but the opportunity did not come up. He went after Dean, Lieberman said, because, "It's not time to put a rookie in charge of America's future."

But the Lieberman attitude was not the norm, and after the debate, there were several theories behind the calm. One was that there are still nine candidates, and it may be too early to risk looking unpresidential by demonizing Dean.

Also, some said, this was a debate with a different kind of mission because of the focus on Latino issues. Hosted by the nation's only Hispanic governor, it was simultaneously translated into Spanish. Many questions were asked both in Spanish and English, and most of the candidates sprinkled their answers with Spanish phrases.

"We put the debate out here to appeal to the Hispanic community. We want to bring them in earlier," said party Chairman Terry McAuliffe.
<SNIP>

What makes Lieberman think he is not a rookie himself? None of the candidates have Executive office experience, save Dean and Graham. Kerry's Lt. Gov stint really doesn't qualify, since the governor handles the pressure head-on.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. commanding a swift boat in hostile waters sounds pretty executive to me
:)
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. that probably isn't the kind of thing
that will impress an angry anti-war base.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. That was a long time ago and Kerry's 2 Iraq War votes nullify that
experience.

Kerry's votes against the 1991 Iraq War and for the 2002 Iraq War indicated that Political Kerry has not learned the lessons of Vietnam.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. Kerry had an actual plan
not just a criticism. Dean was saying at the time that forcing inspectors on Iraq was unnecessary because they were so weakened and already monitored through no-fly zones and satellite photos.

I want someone who gets it right the first time.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Doesn't it look like Dean was right the first time
and "evolved" towards Kerry's incorrect view over time?

Saddam was already contained and weakened. Just because Chimpy got everyone's panties in a bunch about what a threat he was doesn't mean it was true. Eventually it seems that everyone figured, "well, I guess we'd be safer if we found out what wiley Saddam really is up to", but the whole thing smelled like a marketing campaign to me (the Bushies even admitted as much in August).

It's not like Bush was publically talking up the "massive threat" from Iraq, apart from putting it in the AoE, at any time before Sept, 2002.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. I Still Agree With Kerry/Late Dean
Unfettered inspections needed to happen. It really wouldn't be difficult to do. In fact, you'd have to be some sort of idiot chimp to screw it up.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. ha ha!
Well, I'd have to agree that I don't mind keeping half an eye on Saddam, even if he hadn't been giving us any trouble for five years.

Except instead of keeping an eye on him, we are wading through his cesspool and his house has a "be back in 5 minutes" note on the door. :(
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. That's not what Dean was saying.
Dean was saying there wasn't enough evidence to support a unilateral invasion, or any authorization of one.

That was Kerry's position as well, until he actually had to vote on it.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. You Are Changing The Terms of the Debate
To whatever is most convenient.
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Jivenwail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. And I suppose ole' Joe wouldn't consider
whistle ass a rookie??? What a joke. And what arrogance this man has. I think it's obvious he knows he's a long shot and Dean represents all the things holy joe only wishes he had the guts to represent. I thought holy joe sucked last night in the debate. And after watching him, I was left shaking my head wondering how in the hell Gore selected him in the first place.
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. I am sorry to say, but for me Lieberman is just a notch above Bush.
Sorry because I am still Anybody but Bush, but it is getting harder and harder to keep Lieberman as part of the anybody.
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SCantiGOP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. I agree, littleapple
I railed against the Greens who cost Gore the Presidency in 2000, but if Leiberman gets the nomination I will most likely cast a vote for whomever the Green Party nominates. I am actively working for Dean in SC, but all indications are that Leiberman is going to win the primary here, perhaps by a large margin. We are working very hard on the African American vote, since that will likely comprise at least half of the total. But Leiberman's "republican lite" message goes over very well in this very conservative state.
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searchingforlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I am not a Green but the Green's did not cost Gore the election.
Political chicanery by the RNC and Bushco is what cost the election. The Greens have a right to vote their conscience just like we do.

We rally against our lost freedom due to the Patriot Act and then we deny by our very statements freedom to others.

It is a slippery slope and we must get over it.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. You "get over it"...
the Greens are the most culpable for the straits that we find ourselves in today. They should be ashamed!
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Here we go again
Apparently Gore's message wasn't 'Green' enough to capture the Green vote. Let's put the blame where it belongs, including Katharine Harris and SCOTUS.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Apparently Gore's message wasn't 'Green' enough to capture the Green vote"
So, of course the blame is all Al Gore's, he should have run to the left...that would certainly have drawn more support than it would have lost,right? Is that your argument? All he had to do was embrace Green policies and he would be Prez? Thanks for setting me straight, all of this time I assumed that it might have been best for the Greens to vote for what's best for the country. Forgive me for not realizing that what's best for the country is to have politicians pandering to their fringe.
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searchingforlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Do you not believe tht the Greens believed they were voting for what they
thought was best for their country? What would you say to a Green who felt that the majority of Democrats had sold out to a centrist point of view and should have voted for their candidate who more represented the true Democratic Party?

I am not saying it is true. My point is that each individual has a right to follow his conscience in the voting booth. To deny him/her that right is not supporting our precious freedoms. I wish more Greens had voted for Gore. I wish more people had come out to vote. I wish we had been more aware of what was going on behind the scenes in Florida for months before the election. None of that happened.

Reality is that the Greens came out and voted their conscience. At least they voted.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I would ask them...who with a legitimate chance of winning...
offers them the best choice?

Reality is that the Greens came out and voted their conscience. At least they voted.

And that they must live with.
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searchingforlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Okay, you win.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. Greens did vote for what's best for the country
There you go (I'm not one, by the way). Stop whining about what happened in 2000. If Gore had any clear message whatsoever we would have snowed Bush. Gore was a lackluster candidate who lost a rigged election to a more lackluster candidate.
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CMT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
4. I don't see how a five term governor
could be considered a rookie. If that is the case then Bill Clinton was a rookie too.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. post 9/11 landscape not 1992.
new rules.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. And I suppose these rules preclude
a Governor from being elected President (the bombers who attacked the WTC on 2/26/93 are all serving life terms thanks to the administration of a 'rookie' President).

K.
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Yeah, and according to these "post-911" rules...
...only a Bush may be President, right? I mean, he's the only shmuck who'd they'd have us believe qualifies... Just what ARE the "post-911" rules? I have yet to see this explained. I myself think that S11 changed NOTHING. These "post-911" rules are BULLSHIT!
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Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Exactly. The guy who ignored terrorism reports is
considered tough guy under the new rules. And Lieberman is another tough guy. HAH! Please don't let Lieberman dress up in a flight suit and embarrass us anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a crock of shit.

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Parche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
8. Kerry
I am for Kerry, but Dean is not a rookie as
Joe Whinerman has stated
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
9. A rookie like Clinton
Oh Joe. You sound more pathetic every day.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
12. Keep sinking, Joe.
You deserve it.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
17. Historically
Edited on Fri Sep-05-03 01:26 PM by Nicholas_J
duplicate post
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
18. Applause to McAuliffe
for selecting this venue.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
20. Historically
Edited on Fri Sep-05-03 01:29 PM by Nicholas_J
Most of our greatest presidents have had either legislative experience first, either in state or federal legislatures, and later perhaps, executive experience, and then became preisdents. All of the founding fathers who were presidents were legisltoris in colonial legislatures.



Dean as been describes a a strutting, dicatorial little Napolean, not by the Reublicans, but other elected Democrats of Vermont. It is well known that Democrats referred to Dean as a Napolean in Drag. A Democratic Party remade in Deans political image would certainly become more conseravative, and even more, cause enormous gridlock in Washington.

THe president must furst be able to compppromise, on issues, not completely insisting that he get Everything he wants".

Even now, Dean already threatesn to veto budgets in order to keep a balanced budget, which is sheer folly.

Howard Dean in Wall Street Journal
Howard Dean writes in The Wall Street Journal:

The economy is going through tough times. The average American family is in trouble. The economy has been losing good jobs, and the benefits that went with them, at an astonishing rate.
To keep spending in line, I will not be afraid to use the veto — a power President Bush has yet to exercise.

http://stareat.us/eric/archives/000335.html

A balanced budget is not the ONLY way to keep the governoment runniing, and in times when people are short of jobs, it is completely insane. There are times when even businesses run a defit by borrowing more than they have in assets in order to ensure future gains. Dean monomania regarding blaanced budgets in Vermont frequently cand at the expense of harm to individuals.

NO economist would state that a policy of keeping a balanced budget at all times is SOUND FISCAL POLICY. It is hoverever conservative fiscal policy.

Dean’s veto prods Senate back to work
June 24, 2002

By TRACY SCHMALER Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — The session that wouldn’t end isn’t over yet.

Lawmakers will return to the State House next week to respond to Gov. Howard Dean’s decision to veto a bill regulating the possession of abandoned vehicles, Senate President Pro Tem Peter Shumlin, D-Windham, said Wednesday.

http://timesargus.com/Legislature/Story/48951.html

Senate adds money to budget, angers Dean
May 9, 2002

By ROSS SNEYD The Associated Press

MONTPELIER — Senators passed a 2003 state budget Wednesday that the governor made clear he would veto if it ever reached his desk.

http://timesargus.com/Legislature/Story/46513.html


Senate passes Champion land bill
February 6, 2002

By DAVID MACE

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — The Vermont Senate has passed a bill that reaffirms the right to hunt, fish, and do other recreational activities on the state’s portion of the former Champion lands.

Shumlin had originally proposed giving lawmakers the final say in any land management plan. But Gov. Howard Dean threatened to veto a bill that contained such a provision and it was dropped.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41993.html


Senate tackles medicinal marijuana issue
March 19, 2002

By TRACY SCHMALER Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — The sleeper issue of the session may find permanent slumber in the Senate if opponents of medicinal marijuana, including Gov. Howard Dean, get their way.

Dean strongly opposes the bill. He has called it a move to circumvent the federal regulatory process and legalize marijuana. The Democratic governor has been evasive about whether he’d veto the bill if it makes its way to his desk.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Story/44219.html

Medical marijuana clears Senate hurdle, but time is running out
April 25, 2002

By DAVID MACE Vermont Press Bureau

But the bill, which passed the Vermont House with bipartisan support, faces two huge obstacles. The first is time; the second is Gov. Howard Dean.

Dean is a staunch opponent of medical marijuana, which he’s has characterized as a backdoor effort to legalize pot, and as the Democratic governor explores a possible presidential run that stance is unlikely to change.

But because the gay community — which supports medical marijuana for its use by AIDS patients — is a group that Dean has won points with for signing the landmark civil unions bill granting same-sex couples marriage rights, he would prefer not to be forced to veto such a bill.

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/State/Story/45850.html

Article

Fast track for lottery expansion
January 29, 2003

(from the Top Story section)
By Ross Sneyd

ASSOCIATED PRESS

MONTPELIER — Lawmakers appear to be moving quickly toward expanding the state lottery so it can offer a multistate game such as Powerball as early as this summer.

Up until now, there was nearly no possibility of Vermont joining one of the two leading multistate games because former Gov. Howard Dean consistently said he would veto such a bill.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Search/Categories/Article/59827


Additional pay for lawmakers moves forward
May 13, 2002

By Tracy Schmaler

VERMONT PRESS BUREAU

MONTPELIER — There was a sign Friday that the Legislature is inching closer to adjournment.

Like the other rites of spring that signal the end is near — opening the front doors of the Statehouse and the perennial budget criticisms from Gov. Howard Dean — the appropriation to pay lawmakers for working beyond the projected adjournment date is an indicator the Legislature is in the final stretch.

It capped a week when Dean issued his annual threat to veto the budget as well as a public tongue-lashing of lawmakers for being fiscally irresponsible.

http://timesargus.com/Legislature/Story/46751.html

Bill allowing longer bar hours runs into trouble
February 22, 2001

By TRACY SCHMALER Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER - Gov. Howard Dean on Wednesday promised to veto a bill that would give communities discretion in extending weekend bar hours, describing it as a "time bomb" for drunken driving.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/legislature/feb19/billallowing.html


Senate, Dean at odds over methadone
By ROSS SNEYD The Associated Press

MONTPELIER - Senators are poised to rescue the governor's money to fight heroin at the local level, but they're on a collision course with him over treating heroin addicts.

But the budget adjustment act now pending in the Senate could face a veto over how to treat heroin addicts.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/legislature/feb12/sdatodds.html





Dean has a reputation of simply being unable to come to concensus with legislatures, frequently threateend to veto bills, than George Bush did as goveronr of Texas.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Story/44219.html

One of the words most closely associaated with Howard Dean is "veto" or the term "threaten to Veto"

One of Deans Worsse Veto thread revoves around his own ideas on universal health care...




Vermont
In April 1992 Vermont passed the Vermont Health Care Act of 1992 to ensure universal coverage for state citizens, control healthcare costs via a global budget, implement insurance community rating, reform medical malpractice laws, and place the state's healthcare under one state authority. The legislation did not specify how the state would pay for and achieve universal coverage. This led to development of two state proposals--one backed by a group of 55 legislators for a single-payer plan and one pushed by the governor for an employer mandate.

Although the single-payer plan was not brought to the floor for a vote during the current 1994 session, many predicted it would have been defeated. Additionally, Gov. Howard Dean, MD, had promised to veto it if passed. Dean, the nation's only physician governor, allied with the state's medical community in pushing for reform that was not government run. As Linfield College political scientist Howard M. Leichter describes it: "When Governor Dean speaks, the views of Dr. Dean are never entirely obscured. Dean, for example, shares the distaste of his colleagues for federal micromanagement of medical practices, especially through the much-hated Medicare program."1

Dean's employer mandate bill was killed (7-0) in Vermont's Republican-dominated Senate Finance Committee in May 1994. Earlier in March, the House passed a bill without an explicit financing mechanism. This essentially puts the state's universal coverage effort at square one. Some Vermont legislators are predicting action in future sessions on an individual mandate; and the single-payer advocates have not yet given up hope.

http://www.chausa.org/PUBS/PUBSART.ASP?ISSUE=HP9410&ARTICLE=L

Deans health care ideas for the United States are similar to those he proposed in Vermont, which were incremental in Nature but never came close to even providing health a care for more than a small minority of those uncovered. When Dean started trying to works towards health care in Vermont. more than 90 (90.7) percent of Vermonters had health care service, either through employment, medicare, or medicaid.


Governor's Bipartisan Commission
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Health Care Availability & Affordability
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quoted From Testimony #166


C. Access to Care Issues Under Insurance Plans
| RETURN TO THE TOP |
Given the amount of strong consumer protections already existing in Vermont regarding insurance coverage (particularly, managed care), it is difficult to identify why access and accountability is failing so seriously for all types of health care coverage, and even more difficult to imagine solutions.
The result of the degree of billing errors and impaired access has a serious effect on perceptions as a whole, because the helplessness felt in confronting it can evolve into a generalized sense of dissatisfaction with "the health care system," even if quality and cost as a whole are good.

I have the advantage of both flexible work hours and being a strong and informed self-advocate. I would estimate that one in five insurance/provider billings are incorrect. They often takes hours at a time, and a course of weeks or months of follow up, to resolve. I suspect complaint records do not accurately display anything close to the extent that consumers are inaccurately paying costs. I think there are multiple causes: bill explanations are often much too difficult, in coding, dating, and procedure identifications (to the extent they are even included), for many people to interpret; there are multiple possible sources for each error; and most people with a 9-to-5 job cannot spend several hours of work time on the phone on personal business.

I had an encounter with a hospital where I asked to have the listed billings identified. They could not identify what the service was for any given billing code or date, and offered instead that I come in and try to read through their billings files to match services, dates and insurance payments.

Some charges may be valid, but leave consumers feeling they are paying inappropriately, such as charges for a service billed under a different provider billing name. I received one such provider charge just this week which, in addition, identified the charge only as being for "services." The co-pay listed as due and owing immediately turned out to actually mean, due if full payment is not received from insurance; when I called, I was told to ignore the bill. If I had paid it instead of calling, eventually they would have had to process a refund: all paperwork for a billing amount of $4.60!

Denials for "uncovered benefits" are often hospital code errors, unknown to the consumer; insurers refuse to tell a patient even whether a denial was due to an uncovered "procedure code" or "diagnosis code," telling the patient it is confidential doctor-patient information -- but, of course, the doctor also does not know why it was denied.

I had coverage for a routine annual mammography denied because the insurer said it was not used to getting the referral approval from a primary physician rather than a specialist/gynocologist; they agreed it was an error, paid for it, and then charged me the co-pay for a specialist physician visit rather than a primary care visit.

In addition, people see the short-sightedness of computerized coverage limitations. When I was having a severe daytime somulance problem, I was going through rounds of referrals to specialists who were of different opinions on courses of treatment. This could have gone on for some time, all approved and covered by insurance. Instead, the physicians involved decided to have a four way teleconference: primary care, neurologist, sleep expert, and psychiatrist. The result was a single plan of action implemented by my primary care physician, and an end to the continuous specialty visits. The primary care physician billed for the half hour of time spent on the teleconference. Teleconferences, however, turn out to not be covered in my plan, so I had to pay $121 for the privilege of saving the system $1, 000 or more.

Recomendation: An industry task force might be the best able to assess the means of self-improvement in user-friendly documentation for billing and clearer instructions for appeals on each statement. Customer service access must include hours after 6 p.m.


http://www.state.vt.us/health/commission/testimony/166.htm



Introduction One of the most-watched measures of health care financing systems is the uninsured rate. This is the percent of the population that lacks any coverage at all for health care expenses. Although there is no “gold standard” measure of the number of uninsured in Vermont, by available measures the state has one of the lowest uninsured rates in the country.

Based on an annual survey by the Bureau of the Census, the U.S. uninsured rate has climbed from 12.9% in 1987 to a high point of 16.3% in 1998, fell to 14.0% in 2000 and rose to 14.6% in 2001. Using the same survey, Vermont’s rate is consistently below the national rate.

Vermont’s rate has fluctuated substantially, but appears to have a long-term rate of around 10%. Using a state-sponsored survey, Vermont’s rate was 11% in 1993, 6.8% in 1997, and 8.4% in 2000. Background All estimates of the percent uninsured, both in Vermont and nationally, are based on surveys. Like any survey, there is some uncertainty around these estimates.//


Several of the states with the lowest uninsured rates, including Vermont, have implemented Medicaid “1115” waivers (indicated with *)2. These waivers are intended to allow states to develop ways to expand Medicaid coverage to populations that are not normally eligible, such as working adults without children. However, some states with moderate to high uninsured rates have also received waivers, so the influence of a waiver on a state’s uninsured rate is not straightforward.

Table 23, below, shows the results of the CPS for 1987-2001 and findings of the three state surveys. Concerns have been raised about the magnitude of the difference between the state and CPS survey figures for 1997. Unfortunately, there is no way to determine which estimate is more accurate. Some health care analysts believe that the CPS underestimates the number of people on Medicaid and thus overestimates the number of uninsured.

At least one other state (Wisconsin) that does its own survey reports an uninsured rate substantially lower than the CPS estimate5. Table 2 – Estimates of the Percent

Uninsured in Vermont, 1987-2001

1987 9.8%
1988 10.7%
1989 8.8%
1990 9.5%
1991 12.7%
1992 9.5%
1993 11.9%
1994 8.6%
1995 13.0%
1996 11.0%
1997 9.5%
1998 9.9%
1999 11.1%
2000 8.6%
2001 9.6%

Several of the states with the lowest uninsured rates, including Vermont, have implemented Medicaid “1115” waivers (indicated with *)2. These waivers are intended to allow states to develop ways to expand Medicaid coverage to populations that are not normally eligible, such as working adults without children. However, some states with moderate to high uninsured rates have also received waivers, so the influence of a waiver on a state’s uninsured rate is not straightforward

State % uninsured

Rhode Island* 7.2%
Minnesota* 7.8%
Iowa 8.0%
Wisconsin* 8.5%
Pennsylvania 8.7%
Massachusetts* 8.7%
Missouri* 8.8%
New Hampshire 9.0%
Delaware* 9.5%
Nebraska 9.6%
Vermont* 9.7%
Connecticut 9.7%
Hawaii* 9.7%
Michigan 9.9%


http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:FzuHwx-xM74J:www.leg.state.vt.us/jfo/Vermont%2520Uninsured.pdf+%22Vermont%22+%27uninsured%22+%221992%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&client=REAL-tb

This study how wide variances in the unusured in Vermont while Dean was governor, with almost as many years in which Vermont came within one percent of the total uninsured in the United States, as years in which it was less than that of the U.S. Average. It also indicated that Deans ability to implement extending coverage to those who would be ineligilble under standard medicaid, was implemented by program available through the federal government, not through any special changes made by Dean as governor.

If you look at the years prior to Dean becoming governor, one observes years in which the uninsured rate was as low or lower than during Dean years as governor.

This could indicate that Deans ideas about universal health are basiscally unsound and that Dean should be more flexible and simply give up on his ideas of incremental universal health without changes to the existing system.


Such fluctuations of health care in Vermont seem to be indicative of a broken system that needs to be replaced, not retained.

Deans stubborn adhereance to it is also indicative that execuitive experiece without the prior legislative experience with the politics of flexibility and compromised that executive experience alone seems to not provide, particularly if the executive is of an inflexible nature to begin with, is not necessarily the best item in a resume for the office of president.





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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Anyone else find LONG and RAMBLING posts tiresome?
n/t
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. Only if they are non-credible
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jbw121 Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
24. Deanistan
Dean can run Deanistan, but not the USA

Wrong Turn at Albuquerque
Howard Dean stumbles at the Democratic debate.
By Chris Suellentrop
Posted Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 8:55 PM PT


ALBUQUERQUE, N.M.—All eyes are on Washington tonight, but the Democrats, unfortunately, are in Albuquerque. In the press room before the first "official" debate of the Democratic presidential primary season (which inaugurates "the final pre-primary phase of the presidential election marathon," according to co-moderator Ray Suarez), a couple of journalists grumble that they'd rather be watching the debut of the NFL season with the rest of the country. "Redskins by three, Dean by six" is the joke about the early line for the two contests.


It's the first event for Howard Dean in his new role as the race's presumptive front-runner, and he marches into Popejoy Hall on the University of New Mexico campus with a screaming, chanting ("We want Dean! We want Dean!") throng of a couple of hundred following in his wake. He looks like a prize fighter with his entourage before a championship bout, and I sidle up next to him and tell him he ought to be wearing a boxer's robe. "Yeah, a red velvet robe I can fling off," he laughs.

Unfortunately for Dean, there are degrees of front-runnerdom. Dick Gephardt, Joe Lieberman, and Dean all spend the morning at different events with members the "Texas Eleven," the Texas state legislators hanging out in Albuquerque to prevent the Republicans' efforts to redistrict Texas' congressional districts. (They're now presumably the "Texas Ten," after one fled back to Texas.) When Dean arrives for his meeting at the Albuquerque Marriott, a local TV cameraman turns to me and asks, "Who's this guy?" It's Howard Dean, I tell him. The cameraman's response: "Is he a candidate?"

The buzz among the press corps before the debate is that John Kerry is finally going to go toe to toe with Dean, in an attempt to close the double-digit lead that the former Vermont governor has opened over Kerry in New Hampshire. But it's wallflower Joe Lieberman who pummels Dean instead. Rocky showed up to fight Apollo Creed, but somehow he ended up in the ring with Paulie.

Lieberman's attack on Dean elicits excited "ooohs" from the reporters watching the debate on television in the hall's basement. Lieberman brings up Dean's opposition to trading with countries that do not have the same labor and environmental standards as the United States, and he calls it "stunning": "He said he would not have bilateral trade agreements with any country that did not have American standards. That would mean we would not have trade agreements with Mexico, with most of the rest of the world. That would cost us millions of jobs." Then, after peppering Dean with jabs, Lieberman rears back to throw the knockout punch: If Dean were elected president and carried out his promised trade policies, "The Bush recession would be followed by the Dean depression."

Later, to drive the point home, the Lieberman campaign circulates a press release entitled, "HOWARD DEAN'S PROTECTIONIST TRADE POLICY WOULD DEVASTATE AMERICA'S ECONOMY."

Dean counters by insisting that trade agreements need mere "international standards," not American standards, on labor and the environment. But that's not what he told the Washington Post (as the Lieberman campaign helpfully points out in its release) on Aug. 25. More important from my perspective, it's the exact opposite of what Dean told me when I rode with him in July on his campaign van in Iowa. When I asked Dean if he meant just general "standards" or "American standards," he insisted that he would demand that other countries adopt the exact same labor, environmental, health, and safety standards as the United States. But the audience wasn't riding with me, and they rally to Dean in his time of need, applauding wildly. Lieberman is left to lamely reply, "That's a reassuring change of position."

Dean makes another shocking flip-flop in the debate. After repeatedly saying on previous occasions that the United States can't abandon its obligations in Iraq, he now implies that he wants to withdraw American troops from the region: "We need more troops. They're going to be foreign troops, not more American troops, as they should have been in the first place. Ours need to come home."

All the candidates support an increase in the number of foreign troops in Iraq, but Dean appears to have veered into Dennis Kucinich territory, something he had scrupulously avoided before. If Dean keeps this up, after flip-flops on trade, Social Security, and foreign policy, he risks losing a considerable element of his Carter-esqe "I will never to lie to you" appeal. Dean was already having trouble reconciling his promise that he wanted to renegotiate NAFTA and other trade agreements with his insistence that the United States must trade with other countries in order to turn them into sedate, bourgeois societies. Fairly or not, self-styled straight-talking candidates are held to a higher standard of honesty, and Dean's having trouble meeting it.

The best thing Dean does during the debate is refuse to pander to the Albuquerque audience by spewing tortured Spanish, as Lieberman, Edwards, and especially Kucinich do. He does, however, refer to Latin America as a "hemisphere." And his one specific appeal to the Hispanic/Latino voters that are supposed to be the focus of this debate is nonsensical. Dean insists that racial profiling "doesn't work," and then follows the sentiment with this one: "For 9/11 to have affected our immigration policy with Latin America is ridiculous. The last I checked, not one of those 19 hijackers was Latino." Isn't that racial profiling?

But for the most part, Dean resists making pandering references to Hispanics and Latinos during the debate, and he comes out the better for it. In the morning, during his visit with the fugitive Texas senators, Dean denounced racial gerrymandering. He said that America has changed over the past couple decades and that minorities no longer need to be packed into separate districts in order to achieve representation in Congress and in state legislatures. "That time is past," Dean said. And when he was asked how his campaign planned to appeal to Hispanic votes, he simply and admirably segued into his generic stump speech about health care.

But after the Democratic denunciation of President Bush and the Republicans for wanting to pack minorities into separate, ghettoized congressional districts, there was something distasteful about debate co-moderator Maria Elena Salinas' assertion that this debate was "the first time ever that a debate will emphasize issues of interest to Hispanic voters as well as to the general electorate," with its implication that previous presidential debates appealed to the general electorate but not to the Hispanics that are a subset of that electorate. After all, if it's wrong to pack minorities into separate congressional districts, why is it OK to pack them into separate presidential debates?
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peaceandjustice Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. I read that Washington Post article and Lieberman distorts Dean's stance
Dean did call for "American" standards but ONLY after further negotiation and multilateral discussion. Lieberman makes it sound like five minutes after being inaugerated, possibly while unpacking his housewares, Dean is going to pull the U.S. out of NAFTA.
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peaceandjustice Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. and come to think of it why SHOULDN'T our trade partners...
adhere to our standards of environmental protection and labor rights? I was under the impression liberals and progressives thought our standards didn't go far enough, our minimum wage was below the cost of living, and our West was being trashed by mining and drilling. Why should other nation's peoples suffer under even worse standards? Is Joe Lieberman suggesting Mexicans have less of a right to clean air and a living wage than Americans?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
27. HAHAH...you bash anyone without "executive" experience, then whine
when someone notes that Dean has no foreign policy experience.

HAHAH....what a bunch of hypocrites in that camp.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
31. We sure as hell don't want ANYBODY who was involved in bringing the
U.S. to this point.

Dean '04...
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dean4america Donating Member (390 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
39. well..
my response to LIE-berman would be: "Well, we sure wouldn't want to put a lying son of bitch/DLC whore in the White House either, now, would we?"
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UnapologeticLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
40. He's not a rookie
He has more executive experience than any of the other candidates, except maybe Graham and Kucinich

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