Very damaging Slate article on Dean today

[DJcairo]

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087877/

[w4rma]

1. That Slate article is about as full of errors as you could get.

…
MISLEADING THE AUDIENCE?

And the Dean campaign issued a statement that said Lieberman had misled the audience by using a paraphrase from the Washington Post story, not a direct quote from Dean.
…
http://www.msnbc.com/news/962135.asp?0cv=CA00

No change of position on the number of U.S. troops in Iraq:

Dean Presents 7-Point Plan for Multilateral Reconstruction in Iraq
Wednesday April 9, 2003
…
A NATO-led coalition should maintain order and guarantee disarmament.
Civilian authority in Iraq should be transferred to an international body approved by the U.N. Security Council.
…
A democratic transition will take between 18 to 24 months, although troops should expect to be in Iraq for a longer period.
…
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5364&news_iv_ctrl=1441

Also, this statement in the article is wrong:
The best thing Dean does during the debate is refuse to pander to the Albuquerque audience by spewing tortured Spanish

…
Dr. Dean, who speaks Spanish more smoothly than any of his rivals, largely because of a summer he spent as a teenager working on a Florida ranch with Cuban immigrants, weighed in with a full sentence saying his health care plan in Vermont covered everyone under age 18.
…
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/05/politics/campaigns/05DEBA.html?pagewanted=2

[DJcairo]

2. I don't understand...didn't Dean say "International Labor Standars"

not "American labor standards" as he has said before last night.

[RogueTrooper]

4. Who cares

as long as these people starting getting the basic human rights globalization has thus far denied them. That is the most important part of the policy.

[w4rma]

5. The quote from the WP that Lieberman used was a paraphrase.

Not a Dean quote.


Defining Dean
By Fred Hiatt
Monday, August 25, 2003; Page A17
…
One multilateral institution that might not fare so well in a Dean administration, though, is the World Trade Organization. In what would be a radical departure, China and other countries could get trade deals with the United States only if they adopted "the same labor laws and labor standards and environmental standards" as the United States. Whether or not that demand was consistent with WTO rules? "That's right." With no concession to their relative level of development? "Why should there be? They have the right to have a middle class same as everyone else."
…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40299-2003Aug24.html

[DrFunkenstein]

14. What Was/Is Dean's Position On Troop #'s?

Dean makes another shocking flip-flop in the debate. After repeatedly saying on previous occasions that the United States can't abandon its obligations in Iraq, he now implies that he wants to withdraw American troops from the region: "We need more troops. They're going to be foreign troops, not more American troops, as they should have been in the first place. Ours need to come home."

All the candidates support an increase in the number of foreign troops in Iraq, but Dean appears to have veered into Dennis Kucinich territory, something he had scrupulously avoided before. If Dean keeps this up, after flip-flops on trade, Social Security, and foreign policy, he risks losing a considerable element of his Carter-esqe "I will never to lie to you" appeal.

---

Did he just say the relatively (and typically) vague "obligations" or did he actually come out earlier saying that levels should be maintained or increased?

[Egnever]

17. Yea ok funk!

Quite the Funky comment I must say Keep pretending you dont know what he has been saying all along you will go far with that I am sure.

Its posts like this from you that make me want to slam kerry for all the crap he has hanging out there.

This post is complete bulshit spin period end of story.

[DrFunkenstein]

20. I Was Actually Being Nice

I was giving a back door out of the argument. If he only said "obligations" and not anything specific about troop numbers, then there technically is no contradiction (you can pull troops, and still somehow fulfill your obligations). I wouldn't exactly call it "straight-shooting," but you can find the logic.

The "vague" comment was just a pet-peeve aside.

[Egnever]

22. More funk?

You know exactly what he was saying. Hense your "trying to give a back door" crap.

His stance has been clear throughout regarding troop numbers.He wants the US troops out as fast as he can reasonably get them out without leaving Iraq in a shambles. Period end of story. He always has he always will.

You know at least as much about deans positions on everything as a majority of the Dean suporters on this board.

Your twist above of dean is nothing more than you attempting to slander him and you repeat your attempted slander in your reply to me here.

I have come to the conclusion at this point that you are on a mission to discredit Dean and quite honestly it tires me.

Few Dean threads go by that you dont make your presence known with some sort of an attempt to twist snipets of Dean speaking to convey a different position than the one he has clearly repeated over and over ad nausium.

you seem to not let it go even though you get into the lets stop bashing posts and say "yes please lets."

hell you even started a thread on it where you said

Kerry supporters should focus their energies on what Kerry can do, not what other candidates cannot

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=30963&mesg_id=30963

The post is titled

"Once And For All, A Plea For Fairness and Positivity From Kerry Supporters"

Yet here you are again

Why?

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

33. Funk's passive aggressiveness

is getting quite tiring. Thanks for posting this.

[RogueTrooper]

3. Or

"nasty piece of shit slinging". My guess is a coordinated attack with the Lieberman campaign.

Is this flamebait by any chance? Tsk! Tsk!. I am wondering because there nothing but the link and an editorialized subject to go with?

[blm]

18. Yea, sure...Lieberman regularly attacks Kerry.

But, I'm sure he coordinated that with him, too.

[RogueTrooper]

24. It would not be the first time that they

coordinated their response the Dr. Dean, BLM. There was that case where they all agreed not to share a stage with Dean unless it was one of the official debates. That was until the head of NCAAP came out with some strong words... Then Kerry and Edwards, I believe, broke their word to Lieberman and Gep and went scuttling on down to Florida.

[blm]

25. WRONGO...Kerry was ALWAYS speaking at the NAACP

event. They were only coordinating which day he would speak.
His longtime friend Kweisi Mfume never doubted Kerry would speak there.

[RogueTrooper]

26. Rubbish, BLM

That last comment is just revisionism from Team Kerry.

[RogueTrooper]

27. And if you want some proof

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/6291857.htm

Kerry's deputy campaign manager, Marcus Jadotte, said late Saturday that the senator was planning to attend the convention to meet with delegates, but that ``based on an agreement we have with the party and several of the other campaigns, we are working with the NAACP on a format for the public event that will allow Sen. Kerry to take part.''

But it was unclear Saturday that the agreement actually meant the candidates could not agree to more debates. A spokesman for the DNC, Tony Welch, said that candidates were free to schedule as many additional joint appearances as they desired.

[blm]

36. You made my point.

"we are working with the NAACP on a format for the public event that will allow Sen. Kerry to take part.'

He was always going to the NAACP event and was always working to make it happen given all the circumstances of the Dem party agreements.

He was never shunning them as many have accused.

[cprise]

6. more

(snip)
The buzz among the press corps before the debate is that John Kerry is finally going to go toe to toe with Dean, in an attempt to close the double-digit lead that the former Vermont governor has opened over Kerry in New Hampshire. But it's wallflower Joe Lieberman who pummels Dean instead. Rocky showed up to fight Apollo Creed, but somehow he ended up in the ring with Paulie.

Lieberman's attack on Dean elicits excited "ooohs" from the reporters watching the debate on television in the hall's basement. Lieberman brings up Dean's opposition to trading with countries that do not have the same labor and environmental standards as the United States, and he calls it "stunning": "He said he would not have bilateral trade agreements with any country that did not have American standards. That would mean we would not have trade agreements with Mexico, with most of the rest of the world. That would cost us millions of jobs." Then, after peppering Dean with jabs, Lieberman rears back to throw the knockout punch: If Dean were elected president and carried out his promised trade policies, "The Bush recession would be followed by the Dean depression."

Later, to drive the point home, the Lieberman campaign circulates a press release entitled, "HOWARD DEAN'S PROTECTIONIST TRADE POLICY WOULD DEVASTATE AMERICA'S ECONOMY."

Dean counters by insisting that trade agreements need mere "international standards," not American standards, on labor and the environment. But that's not what he told the Washington Post (as the Lieberman campaign helpfully points out in its release) on Aug. 25. More important from my perspective, it's the exact opposite of what Dean told me when I rode with him in July on his campaign van in Iowa. When I asked Dean if he meant just general "standards" or "American standards," he insisted that he would demand that other countries adopt the exact same labor, environmental, health, and safety standards as the United States. But the audience wasn't riding with me, and they rally to Dean in his time of need, applauding wildly. Lieberman is left to lamely reply, "That's a reassuring change of position."

Dean makes another shocking flip-flop in the debate. After repeatedly saying on previous occasions that the United States can't abandon its obligations in Iraq, he now implies that he wants to withdraw American troops from the region: "We need more troops. They're going to be foreign troops, not more American troops, as they should have been in the first place. Ours need to come home."

All the candidates support an increase in the number of foreign troops in Iraq, but Dean appears to have veered into Dennis Kucinich territory, something he had scrupulously avoided before. If Dean keeps this up, after flip-flops on trade, Social Security, and foreign policy, he risks losing a considerable element of his Carter-esqe "I will never to lie to you" appeal. Dean was already having trouble reconciling his promise that he wanted to renegotiate NAFTA and other trade agreements with his insistence that the United States must trade with other countries in order to turn them into sedate, bourgeois societies. Fairly or not, self-styled straight-talking candidates are held to a higher standard of honesty, and Dean's having trouble meeting it.
(snip)

[RogueTrooper]

7. I would suggest that if you

are going post-a-matic with the smears you should probably not break DU's firm ( but fair ) copyright rules.

[w4rma]

9. Read my post #1. This article is wrong on all sorts of things.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php#33649

[ConservativeDemocrat]

8. Lieberman's service...

Although Lieberman is hated here in the radical-left D.U., the truth is that the man does represent a decent portion of the party. Further, he is doing all the other candidates a service - by showing them the kind of centerist attacks the Republicans will be using on them. If Dean can't explain his positions without seeming to shift them, he'll be in trouble in the general election.

- C.D.

[w4rma]

10. Again, read my post #1. This article is wrong on all sorts of things.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php#33649

[ConservativeDemocrat]

11. You're right...

I changed my message to the only valid point I had remaining.

- C.D.

[RogueTrooper]

12. Fear is the little death

The most important thing is to not be scared of the Mighty Wurlizter. Not be defined by your fear of the right wing smear machine. They will smear us anyway and it does not matter how much truth is in the lie.

We must be able to change our policy positions when the facts merit their changing.

[molly]

23. Many here do not understand that DU

is not a reflection of how the rest of the population views things.

[polpilot]

13. More publicity for Dean. Watch the polls to see the net effect of this &

other pos/neg Dean articles. Up, up, and away!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dean '04...

[DJcairo]

16. How do you explain the latest nationwide poll then showing Kerry ahead?

Up up and away!!

[ModerateMiddle]

15. One of the significant things about that article

is how Chris Suellentrop swooned over Dean in a summer article.

He who the press can make, evidently the press feels free to unmake.

I hate it no matter who they do it to.

[Nicholas_J]

19. I remember reading that Joe Kennedy told his kids

That in politics "appearances are everything"

Flat out, the Dean Defense Forces have actively alientated the media, attacking any media outles that reports anything but the"Authorized Version" of the Dean mythology.

The media is out to prove that they made Dean and they can break him.

It doesnt matter how Dean supporters INTERPRET the various changes in Deans positions and his vagueness in taking a position and his reveling in his ability to not be pinned down to a position.

Dean turned the October Resolution into a vote for war by simply stating it was a Blank Check for war without adding the words, "In my opinion" before making the statement. His statments before the media made it so to many, regardless of the fact, that there is no LEGAL basis for that opinion.

Dean gave it the appearance of being so, and so to many it WAS so.

Now it is Deans turn to appear to be whatever the media says he is.

Fortunately, there is enough in Deans past record to verify that even if that is not what Dean is doing now, he has done so often in the past.

This his just the beginning of simple relentless information about Dean in the media.

Since Kucinichs first statement about Dean and Social Security led to Dean apologizing, Kucinich statements about Dean are good for Media ratings

Whenver Kucinich nails Dean on something the media seems to like it. One can expect that Dean will have to be on the recieving end of all of the attack and negative campaigning he did against the "Washington Insiders" and the DLC that he was dishing out for the better part of the last year.

[newsguyatl]

28. i'm reminded

everyday here that idiots abound on DU...

bitter, spiteful, and hateful idiots...


one needs not look too far.

[Nicholas_J]

29. Yes

Dean and some Dean supporters can be very hateful and swpiteful at times

[w4rma]

30. Nic, I really do think you're going to freak out

if Dean is elected President. I think you may campaign for Bush* in order to stop us from getting him elected. You seem obsesse with all things anti-Dean. It's like a personal vendetta.

Calm down, Nic. Dean is not the enemy and neither are us, his supporters.

[Nicholas_J]

32. Dean is the enemy

The fact that he CANNOT run on his actual record as governor, and has had to create a persona that is an EXTREME disconnect from his actions as governor make him so. His decisions as governor were not centrists, but pure right conservative.

He was so right, that he is the wrong candidate for the Democratic party.

Virtually all his actions as governor were to oppose the Democratic Party. He is the ONLY candidate running who has not only willingly, but insistantly and constantly tried to cut social programs , even when these cuts were found to be completely unneceesary to balancing a buddget, while at the same time spending the funds needed for social programs on big construction project that primarily served the interests of single large businesses. At the same time he demanded massive cuts to medical programs, in ordewr to save ten million bucks, he spent eight million to build a new bridge whos primary beneficialry would be a plastic injection company(Husky Injection). The public didnt need the bridge. it just made it easier for the company to get its product out and its buyers in. Dean selected to cut tens of thousand off of medical care to tens of thousands in order to serve the interests of a Canadian Plasstic bottling plant. Fortunately the Vermont Senate reversed Deans decisions rousing Deans wrath and attacks by doing so. But they did it anyway, and so programs that Dean never started and wanted to kill, still exist in Vermont to date.

Lieberman is CONTINUALLY attacked on this site as the conservative...

But even Lieberman has NEVER made the kind of conservative changes Dean has made.

Liberman is called a conservative...But Dean IS the real thing.

[w4rma]

34. Yup. I was right. You'll support Bush over the Democrat in the General

if Dean wins the nomination.

[Larkspur]

35. Gov. Dean balanced Vermont's budget and Vermont today enjoys a surplus

Thanks to Howard Dean. He was credited for this achievement by both the Chief fiscal officer of the Vermont Legislature and the Vermont Admin Office. Vermont is only one of a few states to have a surplus.

Actually, what Gov. Dean did in Vermont impressed Bill Clinton. Yes, Gov. Dean is a New Democrat, but in the correct way it should be.

[killbotfactory]

21. Very damaging indeed!

or not.

[Nicholas_J]

31. Remember

It has been the media, for the most part, who made George W. Bush during the elections, and have kept him in place until recently.

All DU criticises the media a being right wing media whore when they back Bush to the hilt.

Then when they start to go after a Dem candidate, you deny it is actually happenning.

Positive Dean coverage in the media has been the norm for the last six months.

When it starts to turn ugly, Dean supporters go into denial.

In less than a week, Dean has begun to be slammed in all forms of the media, newspaper, magazines, television. And it is not longer just the progressive media in which you see it happening. The mainstream media is starting to pick up on whst the progressive media has been stating about Dean a great deal for the last two years, and for a good part of the last eleven years.

That Dean is a political opportunist. They are furious about Deans misleading early campaigning, giving the illusion of liberalism, sort of a Bill Clinton from New England, when in fact Dean is trying to move away from that when in order to move back towards the center, he has to do a good deal of flip flopping on his earlier position.

The press and the other media can be terribly unforgiving of politicians who behave this way, and they are not going to make the excuses for Dean changes in stance that Dean has. They are NOT goint to call it evolution, they are going to indicate that his changes of stance do not come from a sincere stance, but from politically craven behavior.

I have been stating for over eight months that this is EXACTLY what would happen to Den in the media, while for all of those eight months Dean supporter have been stating I was completely wrong and it would NEVER happen. Well its going to no only happen, but it is simply going to continually get worse.

Once Clinton was the candidate, before he was even elected, the media was on issue like Genifer Flowers and other things about his personal life, but demos are rather forgiving about personal life. What they absoltely are not forgiving about is a political lie. And even wen he lied on the stand about his personal life, while it affected some dem decisions for 2000, even a lie about ones political life does not effect their opinions about the cnadaites as much. Bur one thing most dems are absolutely UNFORGIVING about is a political lie, and Dean has been caught in several of those already. The next thing they are obviously unforgiving about is siding with republicans on critical legislation, and Dean did this for ten years as governor.

Those who were most angry about the Democratic Party, the DLC and its move towards the center formed the Green Party, a rather small party with less than five percent of the populations support.

On the other hand Dean policies in Vermont drove a far larger percentage of Vermonts population away from the democratic part to another party dissatisfied with what they viewed not as Deans centrism, but his conservatism, and by the time Anthony Pollina Progressive Candidate ran, he drew TEN PERCENT of the Demcratic Party Vote to his platform. A far greater accomplishment than Naders 2000 run for president. This message being that Deans conservatism is far greater than the DLC's move to the Center. Dean is NOT the candidates to undo the DLC's so called conciliation to the right. Dean record as governor is as a solid right wing of the democratic party candidate, far right, so far right he it simply the wrong candidate.