Lets PLEASE make peace as dems

[Mass_Liberal]

I am a deanie. but, I have never done an insubstantive attack on Kerry. I like Kerry. I also like Edwards, Kucinich, Mosely Braun, Sharpton, and Gephardt on some things. I see on DU all of us attacking eachother. This scares me a bit. I would like some confirmation that we will all vote for the nominee.

Remember we are all:dem: and we should be proud of it :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:


Peace

[mitchtv]

1. i agree.. take the pledge.. attack Pukes, not Dems

the only Dems i will attack is "dems" who reccomend Yes on recall- they are zell miller dems.

[MoonAndSun]

2. Mass_Liberal, there will always be bashers, so we just have to deal

with it. I do not participate in bashing threads, but I do realize the need for some of our posters to let their feelings out.

But we do all need to come together once the nominee is picked, and I have great hopes that we all will.:grouphug:

[movonne]

5. Yes we must stick together...I have not made a decision on anyone

of the candidates...as I will vote for whomever gets the nomination, except holy Joe

[searchingforlight]

3. There is another side to this.

Another side that I find even more disturbing. More and more I am seeing reports of good men/women, good potential candidates who are deciding not too run for office.

I believe it is the vitriol that is present in what has become political discourse and the fact that we pick people and their families to death.

We defeat ourselves if we create an atmosphere so disharmonious that people decide it is better for their life and health to not be involved.

[el_gato]

4. i don't participate in bashing threads either

as well I have never attacked any of the candidates
except maybe a snide comment about lieberman here and there.

the candidate bashing bores me anyway

[mojowork_n]

6. For sure... except for Gen. Clark and Saber-Rattler Joe

I agree in principle, especially after having broken ranks and casting a vote for Ralph last year. (OK, I live in Wisconsin, it was a little bit close but never seriously in doubt, but in light of the theft in Florida is there a 3rd party choice, anymore, at all? Rev. Al was right, last night, calling the Florida mass disenfranchisement the opening round in a "non-military civil war". )

Anyway, the only serious reservation I have is about Wesley Clark. This piece, today, on commondreams.org, summarizes the argument nicely:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0910-07.htm

There's been some great commentary on counterpunch.org, too.

By comparison, Lieberman is less of a butthead.

[Nicholas_J]

27. Some reservations I have about Clark

Is the massive amount of civilian death that resulted from his bombing raids in Kosovo. I mean 31,000 bombing raids in 70 days seems to be overkill(literally) Also his plan to board Russian ships in the Adriatic and start World War III seemed a bit over the top at the time and CLINTON had to order him to stop.


World: Europe

Nato strike kills civilians

Nato has admitted hitting a residential area during an air raid on a town in southern Serbia.
According to local Serbian officials, up to 20 civilians, many of them children, were killed in the missile strike on the town of Surdulica on Tuesday.



UK Defence Secretary, George Robertson describes the strike on Surdulica
Reporters taken to the town report harrowing scenes as rescuers tried to retrieve body parts from the wreckage of houses as bulldozers cleared huge mounds of concrete rubble searching for more victims.

"There might have been some bombs that fell short," said the UK Defence Secretary, George Robertson, in an interview with the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/330084.stm

This is one isntance, therw were a lot more...

Even so, I would vote for Clark, but If Dean is the nominee, I will sit this election out.

[indigo32]

7. It's really a shame

#1 for the reason listed above: good people not wanting to deal with it and run for office. Who can blame them :shrug:

#2 I don't know about other people, but I worry sometimes that my reaction to the bashing that goes on clouds my judgement. Trust me (I could list several names here but will refrain), I know it's an emotional reaction, not a logical one, but we aren't always logical people. When I see someone who is rabidly anti-Dean, my stubborn streak kicks in and makes me want to support him more, and I know I'm not the only one. So you aren't accomplishing anything. This must certainly apply to some other candidates supporters as well. I may actually leave the forum for a while to clear my head. It's not that my decision is earthshattering or anything. But I am giving substantional amounts of time and money... and I've never given money to a presidential candidate before. I want to do the right thing.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[helleborient]

9. Thank you

[library_max]

10. Good for you.

Good post. Thanks.

[gully]

11. Confirmed here. N/M

[Nicholas_J]

12. Nope

Dean got to be a major player by attacking Democrats:

One certainty about the 2004 presidential primary campaign is that Howard Dean will not be named Mr. Congeniality by his fellow Democratic contestants.

Over the past few weeks, the former Vermont governor has growled like a political pit bull toward other Democrats seeking to challenge President Bush next year...

Although sometimes loose with the truth, Dean's attack strategy seems to have paid off. He has put his opponents on the defensive and has drawn considerable attention from political commentators and Democratic contributors. Polls show him neck and neck with Kerry in the critical New Hampshire primary and closing in on the favored Gephardt in the Iowa caucuses...

Moreover, as the lone non-member of Congress among the leading Democrats, Dean is able to tap into a growing populist antipathy against Washington and can fashion himself as a new, dynamic voice.

As Dean becomes a top-tier candidate, however, his casual approach to facts and abusive tactics against his opponents could get him into serious trouble -- and severely damage Vermont's reputation for political civility and intellectual honesty.

http://www.sover.net/~auc/deanbites.htm

Sorry you go back to the begnning and Dean made his name by attacking other candidates and the "Bush-Lite" insinuations, WHo do you think he was referring to...Republicans.

Sorry Dean has EVERYTHING that the other candidates and the DLC can pull on him coming. The more people who belelve it, the better for thre party.

[indigo32]

13. You can keep saying that all you want

it doesn't make it true... or you right in abandoning your party should he become the nominee

[renie408]

15. But it IS true

Who started the 'Bush Lite' thing? And who gained ground from scabbing Wellstone's "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party" thing?

And what about the links supplied? It IS true. There is nothing I cannot stand more than someone who wants to say all that they have to say, make any kind of claims they want, call names and then say, "Now this subject is closed and we should not talk about it any more." I have seen plenty of Deanies attack every single other candidate here. When I posted a simple position post about Edwards, a Dean supporter immediately jumped on it and made snotty comments. I DON'T GET CRAPPY COMMENTS FROM ANY OTHER CANDIDATES SUPPORTERS BUT DEAN'S when I try to post something positive about Edwards. That is just TRUE. Maybe it is only an isolated few supporters here, but it seems like even when somebody posts something positive about their candidate and doesn't even mention Dean, they jump in and deride what is said.

I started out here wanting everybody to play nice. But that isn't going to happen.

[indigo32]

17. umm excuse me

I don't really care about Nic's link to an EDITORIAL. As for the rest... well I hope you feel better after venting. I've not criticized Edwards or Kerry, or any of them really... so you can get off your high horse with me. Are you ignoring the snotty comments that come up on Dean threads?

[renie408]

23. Yes, I feel a lot better

Thanks for asking. If you haven't bashed anyone, then I was OBVIOUSLY not talking about you, was I??

[sandnsea]

19. Don't look now

You've just been officially recognized as a 'Dean Basher'. Unbelievable.

The sad thing is that most of the things said about Dean will be said next year if he gets the nomination. But the supporters just cannot see that they're true. When people bash Kerry over his war vote, it's frustrating. But it's also something that will have to be dealt with, it would be an issue if he got the nomination. I can see the problems my candidate has, I don't understand why some people can't see the problems their candidate has.

[w4rma]

20. I don't seek out Edwards, Kerry or Kucinich threads to bash them

In fact I complement all 3 of them on many threads.

But I, frankly, don't have much respect for Democrats who want to see Democrats defended *less*. So, go *defend* your candidate, sandnsea, but don't tell me not to defend mine. Thank you very much.

Note, I know that Dean isn't perfect. And I'm also aware that none of the other candidates are, either.

[sandnsea]

21. You don't bash, you defend

Good for you. Thanks for clarifying that.

[Nicholas_J]

22. Who lied in S.F.

About John Edwards.

Dean apologizes to Edwards over war comment
Democrats spar over question of support for Iraqi conflict
Wednesday, March 26, 2003 Posted: 4:25 PM EST (2125 GMT)



Howard Dean has accused fellow Democrat John Edwards of shifting his position on the war in Iraq

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Story Tools



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Howard Dean sent a handwritten letter to Democratic presidential primary rival John Edwards, apologizing for saying that Edwards avoided talking about his support of the Iraqi conflict before a largely anti-war audience.

During a speech to California Democrats earlier this month, Dean criticized Edwards and Sen. John Kerry for backing the war. He said the two senators, who voted last fall for a congressional resolution authorizing force, did not stand by their positions when they addressed the same

http://us.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/26/dean.apology.ap/

Who made disparaging remarks about Graham.

June 17, 2003
Dean Apologizes For Remark
Howard Dean said he "regretted making a disparaging remark about Democratic presidential rival Bob Graham's chances in the race for the White House," the AP reports. On Monday, Dean claimed "he is the only major Democratic presidential hopeful with experience appointing judges... Asked later whether he misspoke, given that Graham appointed judges as governor of Florida, Dean said he doesn't consider Graham a major candidate."

The money quote from Graham spokesman Jamal Simmons: "I'm not sure why Dr. Dean thinks it's in his interest to pick fights with other Democratic candidates, but he underestimates the former governor of the fourth largest state at his own peril. ... With all due respect, Bob Graham created twice as many jobs when he was governor of Florida than there are people in the state of Vermont

http://politicalwire.com/archives/002239.html


Who lied when Kucinich cornered him about Social Security.

Dean Says He Misspoke on Social Security
NEDRA PICKLER
Associated Press

WASHINGTON - Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean said Wednesday that he misspoke when he told the AFL-CIO he never favored raising the retirement age for Social Security benefits to age 70.

Dean acknowledged that he had called for such an increase when the country was faced with a deficit in 1995, but said he no longer thinks it is necessary. He said former President Clinton set an example of balancing the budget without raising the retirement age.

"Clinton proved that if you run a decent economy and have a budget surplus and some jobs, then you don't need to raise the age to extend the life of Social Security," Dean said in a telephone interview after The Associated Press questioned conflicting statements he has made on the issue.

The current retirement age for receiving full program benefits is 65 years and two months. The retirement age will gradually rise to 67 over the next two decades.

Dean's false statement came Tuesday night during an appearance at the AFL-CIO's Democratic presidential candidate forum


http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/6473340.htm


Falsse statement is as close as the media can get to just calling him a liar.

Dean could be running for the presidency with A.D.A. accomodations as he seems to be truth impaired.

To be honest renie, I started out here much like you, asking simple questions about Deans, record, and being FLAME RAPED by large numbers of Dean supporters. there are many other's who like myself, continually point to Deans conservative record, adn point to some rather nasty things he has done as governor, to average people, at their expense to favor the wealthy and large corporations.

The problem is, that since Deans record is sealed, and Vermont papers only go back at farthest, to 1999 on the Internet. Dean supporters pull that I dont accept editorials garbage. The editorials point directly to things that Vermonters and Vermont Journalists have had to deal with when Dealing with Dean, and so refernces to stance that they say are WELL KNOWN for Dena to be taken are as valid as other sources.

[indigo32]

25. The part I would be disputing

is that he got to be a major player that way. I know what he said. You're not convincing me he's Satan Nic. If you'd chill out a bit you might have better luck converting me to ???, no wait all you want to do is convince me Dean is Satan.

[genius]

14. Agreed

I won't even consider supporting Dean until he personally apologizes to all the people and children his overzealous campaign people have threatened or hurt. Even then, I am not sure whose judicial appointments will be worse - his or Bush's. I cannot in good conscience vote for anyone who is under the uneducated false impression that most criminal defendants are guilty and need to have their guilty verdicts streamlined. While Bush is a criminal and his apointees are horrible on nearly all issues, they don't seem quite as bad as what I would expect out of Dean on this issue. If Dean gets the nomination, I'll probably write in Al Gore.

[Mass_Liberal]

16. the audacity

This is an anti- attack thread, and you come in and attack Dean? This is outrageous!

[w4rma]

18. I see some of the most proliferous Dean bashers have shown up

Nicholas_J (Kerry), genius (Kucinich), renie408 (Edwards)

And it looks like the Dean bashers have no wish to quit their attacks. Instead, they seem to wish to crank up their attacks.

Nicholas_J: "Nope", "Sorry Dean has EVERYTHING that the other candidates and the DLC can pull on him coming. The more people who belelve it, the better for thre party."

genius: "I won't even consider supporting Dean until he personally apologizes to all the people and children his overzealous campaign people have threatened or hurt.", "If Dean gets the nomination, I'll probably write in Al Gore."

renie408: "I started out here wanting everybody to play nice. But that isn't going to happen."

[Nicholas_J]

24. Dean deserves

The bashing.

His supporters have been most active in bashing other candidates for months and so has Dean. He can dish it out, but cant take it. As renie noted, Dean has got to pull all the crap he wanted to, but now that it would be to HIS advantage, its time for everyone to make up and be nice.

Fat Chance.

[chimpymustgo]

29. Fat chance, indeed. The Deanies started this crap months ago.

Some of us have just gotten sick of it.

And how exactly is pointing out Dean's LIES bashing him?

[XanaDUer]

31. More than sick of it.

In fact, it was the behavior of some of his accolytes here that turned me off of him and got me to start looking at his record closely.

Yes, now we must all "play nice" since it has been decreed that all discussions of anything that can be perceived as bashing must ceast and desist?

No. That's absurd to say that. If his record is clean and logical, then posting articles about him should be fine.

[molly]

36. In the beginning he was my second choice

UNTIL DU got an infiltration of ardent groupie Dean supporters. They posted every potty break he took in LBN - they attacked every other candidate - they were arrogant and brash - and they were a great big turnoff. He is now ABSOLUTELY last on my list. When this is all over and done, I would presume we will lose a lot of DU people.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[w4rma]

41. discussions are more than fine with me

I know darn well that Dean (nor any other candidate or human being, for that matter) is perfect. I support Dean for his ability to explain positions, for his bringing some willingness to fight back into the Democratic Party, for many of his policies.

He's not perfect and neither is any other candidate. If you don't think your candidate has skeletons in his closet, then you haven't done your research.

[renie408]

26. ROFL...Now I am a Dean basher??

Why is that? Because I don't happen to think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread? Because I have questioned him?? Honey, you had best get a thicker skin than this if your boy does manage to get nominated, cause my honest questions are going to look like love notes compared to what the Republicans are going to dish out.

[Nicholas_J]

28. Guess what renie408

Dare question the authorized version of the Dean Mythology, and you get to stand in the corner with me...

[renie408]

35. No offense

But I am not exactly in your corner. I think you are a little too psychotic about going after Dean sometimes. I tend to think that you might do better to come up with half as much pro-Kerry stuff as you do anti-Dean stuff. I do think that people who dispute you should apply a little more effort than to just roll their eyes and say, "There goes Nick again." But I also think that you have fallen into the trap of your message falling on deaf ears because people have begun to view you as a broken record.

[Mass_Liberal]

30. All i'm saying is

you have missed the point of the thread. This thread was designed to affirm that dems could stand together. Instead people come on and attack eachother. I didn't create this thread and take a potshot at kerry or kucinich.


I didn't think it was that much to ask to have 1 negative-free thread.

[sandnsea]

33. It hasn't happened yet

I tried this a couple of months ago. All I suggested was that people ignore flame bait threads. Just go on your merry way and pretend they don't exist. Remove the attention from the poster.

Nope. No takers. And there were as many Dean supporters saying no as any other. It's also been said that 1/3 to 1/2 of DUers are Dean supporters. So how everybody else can be blamed for the flaming is beyond me.

It's a nice sentiment, lots of people agree. But pretending that signing on to anti-bashing is going to stop the bashing ignores reality for many of us. Especially those who don't recognize that they bash and I sincerely am not directing that at you.

[XanaDUer]

32. "Bashing"

anything that some Deanies here on DU do not agree with.

And you're correct:wait until the big guns the repukes have come out!

[Mass_Liberal]

34. people make all of these generalizations

about deanies or kerry supporter. You have no friggin right to say i can't take a taste of my own medicine until you name a single attack I have made on Kerry or Kucinich. You will not be able to find one, because I DON'T ATTACK THEM. So stop talking about how deanies always attack people.

Ill refer you to my original message. I LIKE KERRY AND KUCINICH. THERE ARE THINGS I DISAGREE WITH THEM ON, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT THEY ARE IMMORAL OR BUSHLIKE BECAUSE OF IT

[renie408]

37. I think

that everybody is falling into the trap of identifying too personally when someone says something about 'Dean supporters' or 'Kerry supporters' or whatever. No one is saying that ALL Dean supporters do any single thing. But some do. The same thing with Kerry supporters. Not all Kerry supporters spend their time dissing Dean, but some do. I, personally, have noticed that whenever I post something positive about Edwards, certain Dean supporters jump on it, even if I don't mention Dean anywhere. When I wrote what was actually a sincere post asking for clarification on an email that I had recieved about Dean, some of his supporters immediately jumped on me and called me a basher and basically went nuts. NOT ALL....some. I have not noticed the same thing about Kerry supporters or Kucinich, etc. I am not any more inclined toward Kerry than I am Dean, so it is not like I am biased that way. I do like Kucinich. I can't help it. But his people just don't seem so...aggressive. But you know what? That might not be such a good thing when the shit hits the fan, who knows.

[w4rma]

40. You aren't a Dean basher, renie408? (n/t)

[BushGone04]

42. Nick. Come on.

Mass_Liberal essentially sticks out his hand in a peace offering, and you spit in it. I'm a Kerry supporter too, and I think some of what you said is accurate about how Dean rose in large part by attacking other Dems, but we REALLY need to chill with the candidate-bashing that's going on from supporters of most every candidate.

A reminder to everyone: the candidate you're bashing may be carrying the banner of our party against Bush next November, and I, for one, would be proud to see any of them do it. Let's let the Republicans handle the job of slinging mud at our candidates.

[mitchtv]

38. well that worked out well, didn't it?

got me sick to read all this bullshit- I havent made up my mind yet.You guys had better quit, and focus your attacks on Chimp& co. this finger pointing is absurd to the n'th degreee. Please try to focus on constructive elements. What a bunch of babies. To those who intend to 'sit this one out' if their candidate isn't nominated or some lieberman type gets the nod- what can I say except go to hell. I will vote DEM- no matter. There is one goal here let's try to remember that.