NYTimes- Dean Learns Pitfalls of a Popular Hopeful

[DJcairo]

By JODI WILGOREN

From todays NY Times:

BURLINGTON, Vt., Sept. 11 — It was at the end of an animated session with supporters at a crowded Santa Fe coffeehouse last week when someone asked Howard Dean how he would make peace in the Mideast.

Eyes alighting, Dr. Dean, the former governor of Vermont who has become the hottest of the nine Democratic presidential hopefuls, at first suggested he had something new to say on the subject that might just make headlines. Then he switched gears and said he would save the announcement for a larger audience, instead offering what he considered his standard line, that he had recently visited the region, believed in a two-state solution and was horrified by the violence among Palestinians and Israelis alike.

Little did he know his comments that "it's not our place to take sides" and that "enormous numbers of the settlements that are there are going to have to come out" would soon create the messiest controversy so far in his campaign.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/12/politics/campaigns/12DEAN.html

[clar]

1. Did you know about

the Times editorial today in which they basically side with Dean on this?

[CWebster]

3. No, but glad to hear it

It is a disgrace that the Democrats turned on Dean for this in light of the current leadership in Israel and the dimming prospects for a peaceful resolution. The cheerleading by the Democrats--Lieberman, Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt supporting Israel in the Senate--while complaining of Likud neo-cons and radicals on the stump--whose policies they ultimately support, means no shift from the present dismal course.

[sfecap]

2. LOL...I was there.

What the article fails to mention is the huge round of applause he got after the answer.

And BTW, he's been saying this for months, and all of a sudden it's a BIG controversy...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

25. I demand a link!

That proves you were there! I'll wait all day if I have to!

:grr:

[Rose Siding]

4. Just remember, he never *actually* said

he invented the internet.

Here is the NYT sane conclusion:

snip>
At the Democratic presidential debate on Tuesday night, Senator Joseph Lieberman criticized former Gov. Howard Dean for calling on Israel to dismantle most of its settlements. "That's up to the parties in their negotiations, not for us to tell them," the senator said.

We strongly disagree. True support for Israel means helping it see through its pain and rage to its own best interest. You do not have to believe in Mr. Arafat's sincerity or the Palestinians' good will to grasp the need for a radical course shift. You need only understand the meaning of self-preservation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/12/opinion/12FRI1.html

EVEN the US polls at 75% in favor wanting "the Administration to be balanced and ‘steer a middle course’ in order to achieve peace.

http://www.zogby.com/Soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=5789

So good luck to 'em trying to rattle Dean with this. I just don't get the sense that he can be bullied.

[LuminousX]

5. He can't be bullied

which is what is pissing off his opposition. Dean's supporters seem aloof to the criticism they are leveling at Dean and they don't understand why. They fail to see that the issue isn't about who is the Democratic nominee but who is President. Dean is the only one with his eye on the prize. The rest have their eye on Dean's back as he leads the way. This of course means that in their short sightedness they believe all they have to do is stab that back and they will suddenly be in the lead.

[Egnever]

6. Wow

way to put your finger on it !

[Cha]

23. Excellent, LuminousX! I love reading your posts!

:kick:

[Egnever]

7. This couldnt have turned bad faster

if these guys had kicked themselves in the shins. With Sharon coming out saying he will assasinate arafat today dean is starting to look really smart with this statement, while the others come out"strongly supporting" an assasin.

[LuminousX]

8. Iraq War all Over Again

Dean was one of the few voices opposing the war even when it looked like it was going to be a cakewalk. Then when it turned bad, he looked prescient.

Didn't Dean say he was going to up military aid to Israel, though? I do believe he needs to come out with a fairly comphrehensive, though not specific, paper on Israel-Palestine. The U.S., as Dean has said, needs to be a credible broker for peace and that can't happen if it looks like we are Israel's muscle forcing the Palestinians to accept a bad deal.

Sharon is a villain. Simply put. Any attempt to attack/remove Arafat is going to turn the situation over there into a pure chaos ending with Israel killing more Palestinians than any country in the world can accept.

[Egnever]

11. Exactly!

Yes I read that statement also on the increasing of military aid.

I would like to see more detail on his whole I/P stance also but i dont see how nailing it down will benefit him politicaly. It is a hot potatoe IMHO for any candidate to touch. I believe that the majority of america blindly suports israel while people who have really done research tend to favor a more balanced resolution.

I couldnt believe it when i heard the israeli government had made a statement of intention to remove Arafat today. This is madness. All one has to doo is look at the thousands that turned out to protect him with rocks, to realize the bloodshed that would result from trying to carry that threat out.

Once again just like Iraq the kneejerk reaction to stand in line with the uninformed will turn out to be the wrong thing to do.

I really enjoy your posts btw you write very well and seem to be able to look beyond the bashing and get to the heart of the issue.

[LuminousX]

19. Thanks for the compliment

nt

[DJcairo]

9. The article (which no one bothered to read) says more of Dean waffles

He's having difficulty making that transition from being the governor of a small state where politics is sort of low key, to being — at least for the moment — the front-runner in a national campaign where the spotlight is much more intense," said Eric Davis, a political scientist at Vermont's Middlebury College.

The Middle East hubbub is hardly the first time that Dr. Dean has given his rivals a target for attack. In recent months, he has been accused of flip-flopping on trade issues, the Social Security retirement age, whether he would accept federal matching funds, campaign spending limits and Cuba. He was also chastised this week by Senators John Edwards of North Carolina and John F. Kerry of Massachusetts for routinely portraying himself as "the only white politician who talks to white audiences about race."

[Egnever]

10. why bother reading it?

The snipet you provided was enough to show it for the hit piece it is. Wishfull thinking.

When his suport stops gaining momentum then we can talk about what his problems are. Right now he seems to be doing everything right.

[CWebster]

12. I read it

and I also read the discussion of it where due to his standing every syllable is parsed.

You think your fella Kerry would be immune from being raked over the coals? Christ, there is a goldmine on Kerry out there from his dumping someone else's medals over the wall to his previous statements on Afirmative Action to his shifting positions on the Iraqi invasion. They don't call him Senator Waffler for nothing.

[DJcairo]

13. So you guys resort to name calling when threatened

Show me an article in print that calls Kerry "Senator Waffler" and I'll be a monkey's uncle.

The desperation is apparent and it saddens me that so many supporters of Dean's would target people from the DNC, ADL and House leaders like Nancy Pelosi in an effort to defend their candidate from his own mouth.

[babzilla]

14. desperation is apparent on all sides

People are passionate about getting * out and desperate times call for desperate measures. No side has a corner on name-calling. I read the article and Kerry's people are not immune to doing the same.

"Dr. Dean says that sometimes his positions evolve based on new information, selling himself as a pragmatic doctor who relies on facts, not ideology.

"He's flip-flopped on flip-flopping," complained Robert Gibbs, Senator Kerry's press secretary. "They originally billed him as straight talking. Now they're billing his penchant for political flexibility.""

I saw Lieberman identify Kerry as a waffler on Hardball the night before last, since it wasn't in print, you don't have to be a monkey's uncle.

The conventional wisdom-makers are hard at work coming up with the roles that each candidate will be defined as, ala Gore the exaggerator. Dean is the flip-flopper, Kerry is the waffler, etc.

Hey at least Dean makes his own syrup. ;-)

[Cha]

24. Cute!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

27. He's clearly trying to murder that tree, Zidz!

Bright side: He'll have syrup on his waffles in the morning.

[Rose Siding]

15. Defend against Pelosi?

Her anti-fair position should be defended against?

Main Entry: even·hand·ed
Pronunciation: "E-v&n-'han-d&d
Function: adjective
Date: 1605
: FAIR, IMPARTIAL
- even·hand·ed·ly adverb
- even·hand·ed·ness noun

Have fun supporting that opinion.

[babzilla]

17. who knew?

from the article:

In his CNN appearance on Wednesday, Dr. Dean did not apologize for his comments on the Mideast but said he regretted using of the phrase "even-handed" in referring to the talks between the Israelis and Palestinians. He explained that he had "since learned that is a sensitive word to use in certain communities" and that he "could have used a different euphemism."

I also was not aware of the sensitive nature of the word even-handed. I guess there are some disadvantages to not being part of the beltway crowd, is there some sort of D.C. dictionary where we can find these secret codewords that are to be avoided so as not to incur the wrath of the insiders?

[Rose Siding]

20. If there is...

such a dictionary, it's being written on the fly and I hope Dean NEVER reads it. I haven't had any trouble yet understanding him or his positions. :-)

[dsc]

16. You really don't want to go there

I am not saying he is Senator Waffle (I don't think he is) but his local paper has a jihad against him and I have no doubt such an article exists. You really, really, really don't want to encourage people to find junk journalism about your candidate because it is very, very, existant. If you don't believe me search www.dailyhowler.com for Kerry and you will see what I am saying.

[CWebster]

18. Even Lieberman

refers to him as "the waffler". He has become synonymous with it due to his Iraq vote.

As for the others? You betcha.

[whirlygigspin]

22. This is going to come back and bite them on the ass

Taking advantage of the fears and insecurities of I/P's
for cheap points.

I hope Dean puts Leiberman,Gephadt & Pelosi
to shame for exploiting the fears of these poor people.

[w4rma]

26. Lieberman: "I thought that John Kerry's statement…don't need a waffler…"

Sen. Joe Lieberman (D-CT): "I thought that John Kerry's statement in his announcement address -- that he voted for the resolution just to threaten Saddam Hussein -- was unbelievable. It was clearly an authorization for President Bush to use force against Saddam. ... I don't get it. He's been criticizing Howard Dean for lacking experience to lead America in the world today. It's true. It's not the best time to put a rookie in charge of our country's future. It hasn't been a good time to have a cowboy in charge of our future, but we also don't need a waffler in charge of our country's future." (Glen Johnson And Anne E. Kornblut, “Democrats Rip Bush In 8-Way Debate,” The Boston Globe, 9/5/03)
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/05/democrats_rip_bush_in_8_way_debate/

[DrFunkenstein]

29. Clinton On The Threat of Force

"The credible threat to use force and, when necessary, the actual use of force, is the surest way to contain Saddam's WMD program, curtail his aggression and prevent another Gulf War."

-Bill Clinton Dec. 16, 1998

[Nazgul35]

21. Yeah know what...

Not to diminish the point you are making...but I am really egtting tired of seeing quotes from people who have the words "a politicaql scientists" after it. Since I am currently working on my dissertation in political science, I can tell you that I have never heard of Prof. Eric Davis or the Middlebury College...not exactly your bastion of cutting edge political science!

I'll let you in on a little secret...see, newspapers are cheap, and newspaper journalists are lazy, what they do is call the local college when they need a quotes and they get whomever happens to be there at the time...and then this person gets quoted in a newspaper, which is percieved by the general public as a quote from a prominant political scientist who actually studies the Presidency or elections or political parties...

Since I actually went to the web page, he at least teaches course relvant to the electoral process, but as a comparativist...but there is no CV attached to his web site, so there is no way to check to see what publications he has....and after doing a first search journal search, I didn't come up with anything quickly....

So....for god's sake, don't think that every political scientist quoted is someone important in the field!! They are more likely the local proffessor from the local college that is easy to get a hold of...the same guys you see on local TV during election coverage...

[janx]

28. Davis wasn't criticizing Dean. He was talking about transition.

So that quote in the article means nothing, really. But I do know Middlebury College; it has a wonderful academic reputation. I would be willing to bet that most of Middlebury College is thrilled at Dean's progress.