Bad Month For Dean at The TNR Primaries

[DrFunkenstein]

The New Republic ripped up Dean in September. Before you start poisoning the well on TNR, actually read what they have to say. I rarely agree with everything they say, but generally it is thought-provoking.

I wouldn't have started a new thread for any one of these entries, but together they give you a sense of how things are going for Dean lately.

They take on Dean for:

1. Suggesting that he wouldn't encourage much his supporters to back another Dem in the general election.

2. His shaky position on American troops in Iraq.

3. His unwillingness to admit his mistake on free trade and move on.

4. The avoidance of speaking about his uninspiring biography.

5. His knuckleheaded gaffe regarding "taking sides" on I/P.

6. His substitution of empathy with pandering with minorities.

7. His ridiculous claim of being the only white politician talking race.

But he did get kudos for:

8. His righteous stand on mental health parity law.

http://www.tnr.com/primary/candidate.mhtml?id=3

<>

Obviously, you can take this for what its worth. These are not major journalistic writings. They are quick impressions that the staff of a very specific type of Democratic magazine cull together.

[madfloridian]

1. The source is a great one.

Why don't you just not support Dean, support your own candidate, and stop all the stuff? Have you tried NewsMax to see how their thoughts are running on Dean?

Have you ever thought that his supporters are fairly intelligent, can read and think and analyze? That they are quite capable of making decisions on their own?

On Edit, I had cleared out all my ignores, decided to just ignore certain very obvious people. I goofed, I read it, and now you are on Ignore. If I can't see you, you can't upset me.

[liberalnurse]

7. He is a good candidate for the ignore catagory.

You know, I just visited the Dean Blog....I saw the pictures of the Steak Fry. Oh my God!!! Dean supporters everwhere, with signs...just like a Dean rally. What impresed me most was seeing Dean with Bill Clinton, and Edwards and Kucinich looking on....with a sea of blue Dean signs....everywhere!

You know, we won't have to put up with these bully poster for much longer. You could see the it was written on the faces of Kucinich, Edwards and Graham...... Disappointment but empowered too.

This poster is beating a DEAD HORSE. His fifteen minutes are up. So ride along now sonny.

[Julien Sorel]

10. I'm a little unclear on something.

What does this

You could see the it was written on the faces of Kucinich, Edwards and Graham...... Disappointment but empowered too.

mean?

[liberalnurse]

11. Go to the Dean web site...

here it is Billy....www.deanforamerica.com

Then go to the blog....In the beginning it will direct you to 5 pages
of pictures. See for yourself.

***Be sure to click on "take a look" highlighted in the first paragraph. Then you will go to the photo gallery of the Steak Fry.

They could appreciate the energy of excited democrats. Dean was speaking.

[Julien Sorel]

12. OK. Got it.

Thanks!

[Hawkeye-X]

2. TNR has zero credibility

They're a bunch of jerks who lean to the right even thought they claim to be Democratic.

Hawkeye-X

[liberalnurse]

9. Why feed the "quacks", I mean ducks?

Dean is hitting home runs.....Anything we share is falling on deaf ears.

[MrJones]

3. Rigged.

I'm a TNR subscriber, but their "primary" couldn't be more rigged for Lieberman if they were running it on Diebold machines.

[regnaD kciN]

4. The New Republic...

...used to be a liberal magazine. That began to change in the late 70s, and they have moved steadily rightward since. Does the name "Andrew Sullivan" ring a bell? They were also known, in the mid-80s, for being the only so-called "liberal" publication in America to support funding for the Contras in Nicaragua. :puke:

Furthermore (and I'm sure even mentioning this will start a flame war), since Martin Peretz took control of TNR, one of its bedrock positions is that of unquestioning support for Israel. I would imagine that Dean's position (or, as they put it, his "knuckleheaded gaffe") in not adequately supporting "Israel right or wrong" would pretty much doom him as a candidate in that magazine's view -- as would, similarly, his lack of enthusiasm for our "remaking of the Middle East" in Iraq.

[Mairead]

13. That's my sense of the mag, too. I used to subscribe, but I wouldn't now

[Egnever]

5. Does it never end?

post after negative post from you on Dean and still my suport for the man grows only stronger!

Opinions are like assholes everyone has one. Whoever wrote this piece proves it.

[w4rma]

6. …part-owner of The New Republic, gave $2,000 to Bush-Cheney '04 Inc.

WHEN YOU'VE LOST THE NEW REPUBLIC . . . Tapped's new favorite thing is the Federal Election Commission database where you can type in anyone's name and see if he or she has donated money to political candidates or parties. (Tapped's old favorite thing was The Washington Post's home buyer database, where you could learn how much your neighbors spent for their apartments.) So check out this nifty little listing (go here and search for “Steinhardt, Michael”) that we discovered while trying to see which big-shot New Democrats were supporting which Democratic presidential candidates: According to this list, Michael Steinhardt, former Democratc Leadership Council stalwart and part-owner of The New Republic, gave $2,000 to Bush-Cheney '04 Inc. on June 20, 2003.

Now, we know that there's often little direct relationship between a magazine owner's politics and the views of its writers, but it is a notable thing when one of the more prominent New Democrats around starts financing the continuation of the Bush administration.
http://www.prospect.org/weblog/archives/2003/07/index.html#001288

[acerbic]

8. I really hate Dean's pandering with minorities!

His substitution of empathy with pandering with minorities.

I remember seeing that one debate where Dean was speaking pretty fluent Spanish, it was disgusting pandering! Lieberman on the other hand stuttered something like "Me speako espaniolski now-o"... now that guy knows how not to pander!

I also know that Dean has no empathy because I am so filled with empathy that I can feel it. Can anyone disprove that, huh?

[virtualobserver]

31. you are not a nice person.....

I prefer to drink my morning coffee, not project it out through my nostrils.....

Lieberman did probably nail down the hispanic vote with that quote.

Hilarious!

[clar]

14. doc, your'e beginning to lose it,

and I'm sorry about that. All of your anti-Dean postings are beginning to to reek of desperation. You used to post more pro-Kerry pieces. TNR is indeed a questionable source. We're talking Marty Perez here. The rag's taken gratuitous swipes at Kerry. In fact, the darling of the TNR primary is Lieberman.

[molly]

15. Looks like Edwards' GPA is the highest this month

with 3.5!

http://www.tnr.com/primary/matrix-daily.mhtml

[renie408]

18. Is that good or bad??

I saw where they rated him highest, but after reading all the comments made about the magazine, I am wondering if that is a good thing or a bad thing!!

[molly]

19. I like Edwards - so it's a good thing!

[DrFunkenstein]

16. How Many of You Actually Read It?

First of all, I put several qualifiers on the source, but - big surprise - I still get people whining that New Republic is a centrist magazine. I know that! I don't trust them either. I said specifically that this was no great source of journalism, but that it was thought-provoking discourse from a specific viewpoint.

They trash Kerry just as much, except I thought it was unusual that they trashed Dean so consistently in the last few weeks. They also thought Lieberman had a great month in August. Does anyone agree with that?

If you just want to talk about how wonderful your candidate is, stay on your blog and talk to the converted. Or put everyone except Dean supporters on ignore. I am here to vigorously discuss politics. If you want to cheerlead, do it on your own time.

[renie408]

17. I have to agree

What we are all here trying to do is figure out who we think is the best candidate to run against George W. Bush next year. I want to hear good AND bad about everybody. Including John Edwards. You have something bad to say about him, I need to know it. I need to check it out after I hear it and figure out if its a deal breaker for me.

And why Ignore Funk? He isn't abusive, his thoughts are normally presented politely...they just don't say what you want to hear. I have been tempted to ignore a couple of people, but it was only the ones that are really whacked out. If you want to defend Dean, you can't just keep linking people back to his website and saying, "he is great. He hasn't changed.". Offer come kind of counter information that shows that he was saying the same things about Israel two years ago that he is saying now. I would expect small changes, but anything radical in his position that has occurred over the last six months smacks of politics.

Dean has taken some pretty hard hits in the last couple of weeks. I think this time might be the crucible that either tempers him and produces a truly strong candidate or it is going to burn him to cinders. But IGNORING the hits is NOT going to produce a candidate capable of taking on Bush/Rove.

[DrFunkenstein]

20. Thanks For The Defense

My bookmarks are filled with pro-Kerry policy threads (which more often than not disappear quickly). They are also filled with heated discussions about the IWR. I didn't put the Dean people on ignore because they attacked Kerry, nor did I whine that they were being unfair. I presented the facts as best I could, trying to be as honest as I could. It ended up being a wonderful experience that really helped me learn alot about Kerry and gave me much more respect for him. And it gave me thicker skin.

[dsc]

21. On criticism 6

Do you belive this? Note this is the one, and only, example they give on lack of empathy.

One other point: Clinton and Gore spoke about race with a genuine empathy that shined through. This allowed them to be, at times, critical of affirmative action. Dean's seeming inability to speak in an empathetic language (take his inability to quote scripture, for example) will cause him problems. To carry the base, he'll have no choice but to pander hard.

I find this unbelievable. I don't know which is more offensive the idea that since Dean chooses not to quote scripture (he is running for President not Bishop)somehow means he can't or that minorities somehow need to hear scripture. What utter tommyrot.

[mbali]

28. Not unbelievable

to me. I have found Howard Dean's approach to minorities and minority issues - while certainly well-intentioned - to be patronizing and somewhat out-of-touch. Claiming he's the only white politician talking about race, informing a black pop culture writer that she never heard of a Wyclef Jean song (although HE had), demonstrates, in my viwe that he really doesn't know much about minority communities, but assumes that he's an expert.

I don't think his lack of knowledge of or experience with minorities will hurt him in and of itself - people understand that everyone is not immersed in cultures different from theirs and it's not his fault that Vermont is 98% white - but folks WILL resent it if he continues to behave as if he's cornered the market on knowledge about black folks. And, if he keeps acting like the white guy at a black party who suddenly starts speaking ebonics and dancing the funky chicken, he's in danger of generating a reaction worse than resentment - people will just laugh at him.

[dsc]

29. maybe if they had used that example

they may have had a point. I cringed myself on his you probably haven't heard of this. But if you look at his link you will see the only example they used was what I cited. Any comments on that point?

[renie408]

30. Things you find on the way to looking for other things

http://www.state.vt.us/educ/new/pdfdoc/pubs/racial_harassment_99.pdf

I thought this was interesting.

[dsc]

33. I looked at the recommentation part

and will look at other stuff later. But I do have a couple of comments. One is that without knowing if the state school board of Vermont is appointed or elected it is hard to place blame. (If you know which is true then respond accordingly). Second, I think many, many states would have similar complaints and this report was very one sided in the section that I read. There were no comments, quotes, or even paraphrased arguments representing what if anything the criticised people thought.

[DrFunkenstein]

32. The Scripture Comment Was Stupid

One of the little techinical things that Clinton did well was his ability to speak in Southern Baptist cadences popular with the black clergy, which is different than reciting scripture. Black style is very fluid, and the way you say something is often more important than what is said. Clinton could "signify" in ways Dean (or any except Sharpton) cannot. Edwards, though, does have a beautiful cadence to his voice.

As far as empathy, you can be the biggest New England patrician, and still come off as empathetic. Although Kennedy was at first resistant to civil rights, he came across as very empathetic and eventually became a beloved figure in the black community.

I don't think that Dean necessarily has to pander, but he has connected yet. But if he can come across the way he did with rednecks - that they need healthcare, too - I think he can still make it.

[dsc]

35. That stupid example was the sole one they gave

Dean showed great empathy for gays and lesbians despite what to my knowledge is no personal experience with that issue (no gay or lesbian relatives, roomies, etc). I think people underestimate minorities. They will look at Dean's record of fighting for the rights of people who are not the majority and like what they see. I don't think they care about cadence. After all there are lots of southern politicians with great cadence (such as Helms and Lott) who suck on the issues.

[DrFunkenstein]

43. Helms And Lott Sound Like The Hillbillies They Are

Your point about homosexuals is a little twisted in it's logic, but I understand. You can also say that the greatest benefitors of civil rights have been women, although they are clearly talking about racial minorities here.

I agree that people underestimate minority voices, but I think you are wrong about the cadences being unimportant. It may not be all-important, but Clinton connected well with minorities despite a very spotty record. They liked him as a person more than a determiner of policy.

Dean will have to work extra hard to connect, because his style is very rigid. Malcom X was very angry, but he was also very slick. Dean may be many things, but he is not slick.

[dsc]

22. On point 4

"Unfortunately, Dean hasn't taken a high-minded stance against narcissism and the confessional culture. He avoids his biography because he has some uncomfortable issues in his past. Unlike Kerry and Wesley Clark, Dean didn't serve in Vietnam. He spent those years skiing in Aspen, even though he supposedly had a bum back. There's no talk of his log-cabin roots, because his log cabin was a beach house in the Hamptons. And nobody likes a Park Avenue Populist, as one friend of mine calls him."

Supposedly had a bum back? He went to an indcuction physical where he was given a 1F by a military doctor. That isn't supposedly and the author if this should know that.

"Even more distressingly, when he does talk about his bio, he's forced to fall back on safe subjects, like the bike trail he built around Lake Champlain and his days stuffing envelopes for Jimmy Carter. Needless to say, these aren't the stuff of a heroic, inspirational life. For now, Dean can compensate for these gaps with his rage. But once he has to appeal beyond the activist base, those days will be gone."

Here they outright lie. He has talked about his brother. He talked about civil unions. Neither are safe uninspiring subjects. There is only one word for what they did here and that word is lie.

[DrFunkenstein]

34. I Thought Dean Did Well Today On "This Week"

My impression was that he said that he speaks louder with his policies than with where he came from, and that he tends to be private about his private life. If I'm not mistaken, his wife also shuns delving into her private life.

Whether or not the media will respect that privacy is another matter.

Lingering concern: Does this sense of privacy have anything to do with his sealing up his records? This may ultimately be nothing, but it is a concern of mine.

[dsc]

38. the records that were sealed

are routinely sealed for members of Congress. We can't just get things like strategy memos, correspondence, and the like. All of the following are public in the case of Dean, his speeches, his vetoes, his signings, his public statements, his schedule, the decisions he made. He has withheld, and I think wisely, strategy memos from staff, correspondence to and from constituents, and memos to his staff from him. That seems fair and is what members of Congress routinely do.

I had posted before This Week airs here and I agree he disposed of this very well there.

[dsc]

23. On point 1

"It's going to be very hard to start late," he says, "and think you're going to do well in Iowa and New Hampshire. It's going to be incredibly hard. I mean, we've already got 39,000 people working for us all around the country ... I really do believe--and I think about this--I want to get this nomination, and if I don't ... these kids are not transferrable. I can't just go out and say, 'Okay, so I didn't win the nomination, so go ahead and vote for the Democrats.' They're not going to suddenly just go away. That's not gonna happen."

Notice that Dean is not only predicting that his supporters wouldn't vote for another Democratic nominee, he's suggesting that he won't even encourage them to do so. Does anybody still want to argue that Dean isn't the Democratic Party's greatest gift to George W. Bush?

Maybe English is my second language here but I don't see where Dean is saying he won't encourage his supporters to work and vote for (in this case Clark). I do see him saying he thinks it won't work if he does. I happen to think he is part right and part wrong. Most Dean supporters I have met are both inspired by Dean and by hatred of Bush. I think most of his supporters will transfer but probably not as enthusiasticly as they are for him. But, yet again, the magazine chose to change Dean's statement into something they like as opposed to what he said.

[renie408]

24. He said

"I CAN'T just go out and say..."

I think you are probably correct on your interpretation that he is saying that whether or not he tells them to go, they are going to do what they feel like. But if somebody wants to be picky on wording, it looks like he is saying that he can't tell them to support someone else. Also, the whole quote appears to me to be a form of minor blackmail, i.e. "If you don't vote for me, too, then the Democrats will lose my supporters."

And what I got out of Funk's post was not that he was trying to sell THIS particular article from THIS particular magazine, just that Dean has gotten repeatedly hit with negative press lately. I think it was the sum of the negatives added together that he was trying to get across. He said that taken individually, none of the points seemed important enough to post separately, but taken as a whole, they look damning. If you are looking for Dean to be damned. If you aren't, they are not going to bother you.

[dsc]

25. maybe you need to look at some other posts in this thread

When some Dean people trashed the publisher he asked if we read the article. So I did and responded. As to your other point. Can't means unable won't means unwilling. He obvioulsy can utter the words so he must mean something else. The only thing that makes sense is that he thinks it won't work. Which is exactly what I said it meant and the opposite of what TNR says it means.

[renie408]

27. Maybe you need to re-read what I wrote

I said that I agreed with your interpretation of Dean's comments. Sorry, you have no argument there. So sad.

I also said that I thought they were a form of blackmail. Jump that.

I did read the other posts. I also read the original post. Funk said words to the effect that it was the collection of information that caught his attention. While he also asked for people to read the article, he clearly stated at the start of this thread that it was not from the most completely credible of sources.

[DrFunkenstein]

40. See, People Actually Can Change Their Minds

When I look at how you change the emphasis, I can totally see your point (if I got it straight): not that won't encourage his supporters, but that he is not sure if that encouragement will be effective for NBD (None But Dean) voters.

His statement is very susceptible to interpretation (as TNR proves), but I can definitely see where you are coming from.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

26. "Obviously, you can take this for what its worth."

It's worth nothing. Thanks for letting me take it for that.

Ran out of actual news sources to bash Dean? Kerry's desperation seems to be filtering down to some of his supporters.

Dean Dean Dean Dean....

[LuminousX]

36. Uh..

1. Suggesting that he wouldn't encourage much his supporters to back another Dem in the general election.

And Kerry would eagerly tell his supporters to back Dean? Well, either way, I don't see how anyone can know this. It is pure speculation.

2. His shaky position on American troops in Iraq.

Define shaky. He has acknowledged we have to be there, that we need to bring in other nations and utilize the UN. The specifics are still being worked out, but that is because by the time the general election occurs the whole political/miliatry landscape of Iraq could be dramatically different.

3. His unwillingness to admit his mistake on free trade and move on.

No reason to admit a mistake. He's moved on.

4. The avoidance of speaking about his uninspiring biography.

This is funny. I'm not sure which side to take on this. If you have an uninspiring biography, why would you speak about it? Are we only allowed to elect people with inspiring biographies?

5. His knuckleheaded gaffe regarding "taking sides" on I/P.

Yeah, even-handedness is such a gaffe. His real gaffe in the I/P arena was calling Hamas soldiers. While I agree with the term, I also agree with one of the DU posters who said it will be used against him and the American public does see a difference between soldier/terrorist. I also believe the American people are deaf and dumb when it comes to the MidEast so it won't get much traction against Dean. That is a calculated risk though.

6. His substitution of empathy with pandering with minorities.

Subjective interpretation.

7. His ridiculous claim of being the only white politician talking race.

Consistently talking race in front of white crowds - not just at events where race is an issue. I think this still holds up.

[deutsey]

39. Good points

:hi:

[DrFunkenstein]

41. Has There Ever Been a Clearer Example

Of someone who hasn't actually bothered to do the reading?

PS - Even Dean has attested to #7, and clarified his position as his original statement was certifiably wrong. Get on the same page.

[LuminousX]

44. And this is why I don't bother defending Dean on DU

You post 7 things TNR says Dean has a problem with. I explain my interpretation of why they aren't a problem for Dean or explain how the issue is purely subjective or speculative.

I'll return to my de facto position. Dean sucks. They all suck. I support Dean because he sucks the least and I have no reason to defend him against other people's opinions. Politically, he is in a strong position to win. That is all that matters to me. Winning.

[DrFunkenstein]

46. My Summaries Were Half-Assed

I tried to make that obvious to encourage people to actually read the originals. I had hoped that people would realize these were not my ideas, and that I couldn't do them justice in a few syllables.

When you say strong position to win, do you mean the nomination or the general election?

[LuminousX]

47. Both

nt

[chimpymustgo]

42. I thought we'd settled this one. Dean said he was the ONLY one

talking about race in front of white audiences. Flat out lie, and Dean knows it. Race relations and equality are a CENTRAL theme of Edwards' campaign, and he talks about it in front of EVERY crowd he appears before.

Kerry, Gephardt, even Lieberman talk about race to white audiences too. Dean making that statement exposes a serious character flaw IMO.

[LuminousX]

45. Yeah a real flaw...

Yikes.

I still say Dean is the only one talking race issues to white audiences and isn't talking race relations to pander to minority constituency.

[deutsey]

37. As I've said before, I'm no fan of TNR

Actually, I should say I don't like the publication, mainly because I've never been the "specific type of Democrat" that it aims for.

Still, it's interesting to hear what they have to say, if only to see what that faction of the Party is thinking.