Dean sure sounds like a Repub when talking about Medicare & SS

[JeniB]

Dick Gephardt v. Howard Dean:
Protecting Social Security and Medicare



On the need to cut Medicare:
Gephardt:
“To slash the program to balance the budget… is not just a threat to the seniors, families, hospitals and research institutions that depend on it, it is a violation of a sacred trust.”

Source: Gephardt letter to the Editor, Washington Post, 9/25/95

Dean:
“Dean said Congress should be willing to cut or slow growth in those programs … ‘We just would like to see some similar kind of backbone by the new leadership in Congress when it comes to Medicare, when it comes to Social Security and when it comes to defense.’”

Source: Montpelier (VT)Times-Argus, 1/30/95


On the 1995 Republican
Medicare cuts:

Gephardt:
$270 billion Gephardt led the fight against then-Speaker Newt Gingrich’s plan to slash Medicare by $270 billion.

“Gephardt was visibly emotional as he addressed area hospital administrators and reporters in yet another attack on Republican plans to trim the growth of Medicare and Medicaid. A man known for scripted speeches, Gephardt ranted and raved… The man known as Mr. Compromise, by political friend and foe, said he wasn't going to back off from this fight.”

Source: St Louis Post Dispatch, 9/20/95

“…I rise today with sadness and almost disbelief of what I am afraid is about to happen to what I believe to be the most important program, the most important help that the people of our country have enjoyed now for over 30 years. I say to the Members that this is the kind of vote that comes once in a generation, maybe once in a career, about the very future of one of the most important efforts that our country has ever made.”

Source: Gephardt speech before vote on Medicare cuts, Congressional Record, 10/19/95

Dean:
“He applauded the efforts of Senate Budget Committee chairman Pete Domenici, R-Nev., who presented his own balanced budget plan last week… Dean also said he could defend Domenici’s approach to reducing Medicare costs. He said he supported more managed care for Medicare recipients and requiring some Medicare recipients to pay a greater share of the cost of their medical services.
’I fully subscribe to the notion that we should reduce the Medicare growth rate from 10 percent to 7 percent, or less if possible,’ Dean said.”

Source: Montpelier Times Argus, 5/18/95

The cuts Dean described – reducing the rate of growth to 7 percent – was exactly what Newt Gingrich’s budget proposed. This would cut between $256 and $282 billion from Medicare: “Under the House and Senate plans, the annual rate of growth of Medicare spending would be cut from 10 percent to 7 percent… The Republicans say these changes would trim as much as $282 billion from Medicare.”

Source: Dallas Morning News, 5/15/95

On the value of Medicare:

Gephardt:
“Medicare 'is the best program this country's ever put forward for our people,’ Gephardt said…''

Dean:

Source: San Francisco Chronicle, 9/15/95
“I think it's one of the worst federal programs ever...”

Source: Dean in San Francisco Chronicle, 8/17/93

“ one of the worst things that ever happened… a bureaucratic disaster...”

Source: Dean in AP, 8/3/93


On cutting Social Security to balance the budget:

Gephardt:
Gephardt worked to stop a cut to Social Security cost- of- living adjustments in 1997:

"In March, Rep. Gephardt single-handedly bullied President Clinton into running from a potential agreement to reform cost-of-living adjustments for Social Security payments and other government benefits."

Source: editorial, Washington Times, 4/22/97

Dean:
“I also think that we ought to put Social Security back on the table and defense. If you take defense and Social Security off the table, what you've essentially said, 'We're not going to cut any of the controversial things at the federal level, despite our rhetoric about being courageous in a new day in the American Congress...”

Source: Dean on “This Week with David Brinkley,” 1/29/95

“The way to balance the budget, Dean said, is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut almost everything else. ‘It would be tough but we could do it,’ he said.”

Source: New Orleans Times-Picayune, 3/5/95


On raising the Social Security retirement age, to 70:

Gephardt:

“Host: Do you go along with that position now enunciated by both Dick Armey and George W. Bush,that the country should go ahead and look at the possibility of raising that retirement age?”

”Gephardt: I don't think it's worthy of consideration.”

Source: Gephardt on CNN “Late Edition,” 11/21/99

Dean:
“I absolutely agree we need to reduce the – I mean, to increase the retirement age. There will be cuts and losses of some benefits, but I believe that Senator Packwood is on exactly the right track, and we need to deal with the Social Security retirement age...”

Source: Dean on CNN’s Crossfire, 2/28/95

“The way to balance the budget, Dean said, is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70…”

Source: New Orleans Times-Picayune, 3/5/95


On senior citizens who advocate for Social Security and Medicare:

Gephardt:
“House Minority Leader Richard A. Gephardt and Health Secretary Donna Shalala took their Medicare campaign to Florida on Tuesday, pleading with older people to pressure Congress to reject the Republicans' proposed changes. ’This fight is your fight,’ Gephardt, D-Mo., told an enthusiastic crowd of about 800 elderly voters. ‘You need to speak out,’ he said, urging the audience to pepper Washington with calls and letters before the House votes on the issue next week. ’You should be part of this debate,’ he said. ‘Write them. Call them. Tell them what you think.’”

Source: St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 10/11/95

Dean:
“Congressional Republicans '’are terrified of (lobbyists for elderly Americans), and I think we all better stop being terrified,'’ Democratic Gov. Howard Dean of Vermont, the current chairman of the NGA… said in an interview… ''I think it's perfectly ludicrous.''

Source: National Journal, 2/11/95

[maxomai_vs_rove]

1. Omissions.

What you're omitting here is what Dean has planned for health insurance reform. If every American has health insurance that can't be taken away, what is the need for Medicare?

As far as SS goes, I frankly don't think it will be there for me when I retire, sometime around 2040. If we need to raise the retirement age to 70 to preserve it for a few more years, then I'm all for that.

[GainesT1958]

4. People should not be forced to work until age 70...

That should be a voluntary decision...NOT one forced upon them because they cannot pay their bills otherwise...Dr. Dean needs to get his message straight on this...or it will come back to haunt him!

The older one gets, the more one realizes this...saying "Oh, well, Social Security won't be around for me anyway"; that's a non-answer...and NOT one that will suffice for the bulk of the U.S. population that is much closer to retirement.

B-)

[papau]

7. Age 62 retirement continues under "retirement age 70" - just lower

benefits.

In 2043 either benefits MUST be lower, or the take on the poayroll tax higher - and Deans solution - and I'd guess Gep's solution - is to remove the wage cap so that the payroll tax take is higher.

[JeniB]

6. That's only good if

he can get his plan passed. We still need to keep what we have now and not agree with the Republicans to throw it away until we are in the position to replace it with something that will pass Congress.

[JeniB]

2. Wait a minute!

When I copy and pasted this there was a source for every remark. What happened to them? I'm going back to my original so I can type them in. This may take a few mintues.

[dsc]

17. Did you put them in brackets?

If so that is what happened to them. Sorry I didn't save you the typing this time but future times it should help.

[JeniB]

23. Thanks

That's exactly what happened.

[RogueTrooper]

3. Okay

Do Republican's make sure that more than 90% of the children in their states have health care?

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_health

Does your candidate have anything more recent? Say from this year, rather than eight years ago?

Here is something within the timescale..

Does Dick sleep well at night? That is a lot of dead Iraqis and lot of dead British and American soldiers he has on his conscience after all.

[JeniB]

9. He did what he did

with a clear conscience trying to protect you. He saw the intelligence and acted upon it. He didn't start it, but he had to vote on what he saw. He doesn't like what Bush did with it. His only fault there was in thinking Bush was an adult and would act responsibly.

[papau]

5. "bureaucratic" Medicare is a turn off for Doctors - so what's new?

The thought was to make Medicare a better functioning "bureaucratic" system and in so doing to say money.

As to "cutting" medicare Gep knows that is Bull - a projection of the entitlement goes in the budget - if it is exceeded a supplemental MUST ne passed. So the 10% growth in cost becoming 7% growth in cost was only a goal - window dressing to makethe reported budget seem more in balance - a technique used by Reagan Bush because the press never says the GOP is lying and that the deficit will actually be higher.

So Dean endorsed a "goal" - rather like motherhood isn't it?

And as to SS retirement age - I think that is the way it will play out - with the Reagan increase to 67 from 65 changed to an increase to 70 in the year 2043. But Clinton/Dean have a better solution than the 1995 age raising senario - namely to get rid of the wage cap on the payroll tax, and then paydown the National Debt (also called lock boxing the payroll tax surplus) and to make the rich pay higher FIT in 2017 so as to get funds so the Treasury can buy back those government bonds in the Social Security Trust fund so SS can pay benefit checks out. I like the idea of the stolen funds being repaid.

If Gep feels a retirement age change is not "worthy of consideration", then he should say he is in favor of removing the wage cap on the payroll tax - and then note that he and Dean are now on the same page (Gep could brag that he never considerred raising the retirement age above the Reagan 67 - but so what - I care about future policy - and they are on the same page).

And for the record I am in favor of folks not being terrified of lobbyists for anything - and it is ludicrous if such an attitude gets in the way of a good solution to a problem.

Good Grief - I am not even a Dean supporter - I favor Kerry - But I like Dean - and I do not like what Gep is doing in throwing mud. I prefer an honest debate.

:-)

peace

[JeniB]

8. This is an honest debate!

If Gep has to stand on his past record then Dean must also. To me this shows Dean agreeing with Republicans rather than Democrats at a time before these nine had all of their new plans on the table. That's what I'm worried about. Is he really going to be just another Repub after he's elected? I think that's a fair concern.

[jos]

10. Agree

Dean's attitude towards entitlements is a legitimate issue that should be debated. And Gephardt's vote on the war is a separate issue. The entitlement question deserves a debate on its own. Simply trying to brush it off, or blame it on an inside the beltway mentality, will not work.

[AP]

11. As I've said recently, the issue here is just how business-friendly

is Dean? Would he rather see private insurance (with the inherent profit margin) replace a federal program which might be a short term loss leader because it reaps its rewards so broadly and overs such a long period of time?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

12. That's cool.

Got anything that links to the sources? I'm not questioning the sources, I'm just looking for context. Thanks.

[liberalnurse]

13. Lets back up here just a moment....

Dean is no republican. Your assertion is an outrageous insult to all democrats. Are you taking your talking points from Rove? Your inflammatory tone does not serve the body of the Democratic Party. There are just some boundaries that if crossed are a red flag to those of us who seek to select our candidate to fight *bush. Calling another candidate a republican is one of the boundaries I speak of.

[AP]

15. Dean's stump speech has this line:

He says something about how he's bucking the conventional wisdom and then says, "Some people say a liberal from the Northeast can't win in the south...well, I'll leave it to you to decide how liberal I am...but if it takes a liberal to balance the budget..." The crowd roars and he doesn't finish the sentence.

OK, shall we talk about the logic in that sentence first? What the hell is he trying to say? It sounds like he's trying to imply a lot of contradictory sentiments, without coming to any firm conclusions ("you decide"). One thing he seems to be foreshadowing is that he's not really a liberal on all fronts. One interpretation is that he's a social liberal, and he's a vociferous critic of Bush's execution of policy, but he's not a fiscal liberal, and not he might not be that big of a critic of some of the philosophical underpinnings of conservative economic theory. We now have taxes, devotion to balanced budgests (to the cost of social programs), assistance to big business in VT, the Wall St background, the Cato Institute speech, and his attitude towards Medicare to all suggest a odd adherence to many of the fiscally conservative policies which more progressive candidates feel are the things we need to blame for America's screwing of the poor and middle class.

This is all not only fair to comment upon, but it's vital that we hash out these distinctions.

[AP]

41. As long as I mentioned this line,

I might as well mention two other parts of the stump speech that made me scratch my head (although these don't really have to do with Dean's liberal vs conservative schizophrenia which the previous line addresses, and which is the subject of this thread).

Immediately after the line above, Dean say's, "Some people think a guy from the Northeast can't win the south. Well, I can because, nobody else is talking about race to white audiences." (I'm paraphrasing.) The second part of that statement has gotten a lot of attention. However, the first part of that statement makes me wonder if Dean took some of the same logic classes as Bush at Yale. Does dean really think that a guy from New England has a hard time winning in the south because he or she won't talk about race to white audiences? Was that Dukakis's problem? Was that Mondale's problem? He has a lot to learn about regional politics (and, I think, even more importantly, class politics) in America.

Another thing that's crazy about Dean's stump speech -- and this is from the one at Bryant Park in NYC -- is that he opens with about 15 minutes of statements, each one, mentioning Bush's name. So he totally defines himself in terms of Bush for a long time into the speech. Then he says, something like "they say" you can't win unless you tell people what you're for, so here's what I'm for"...and then he talks about one or two of his programs in VT (home visits for new parents, which is barely federalizable, and insuring 99% of the kids), and then he goes right back into criticizing Bush for most of the rest of the speech, until he talks about how the conventional wisdom is wrong about him.

That's a very confusing moment in the speech. You're not sure if Dean is being sarcastic about the need to tell people what you're for. The notion doesn't seem to hold his interest for more than a minute or two, and he acts like it's somebody else's idea of what a good candidate does, and not his own.

I think someone else here at DU said that Dean may not have the message, but he definitely has the music. I have to say that I totally agree with that sentiment. If you listen to the Bryant Park speech, I think you're left with the impression that there's a lot of energy and excitement, but if you think to hard about what's being said, you scratch your head in confusion.

[disgruntella]

21. It's pot-kettle-black time!

"inflammatory tone?"

That's what I read in your post, not JeniB's. She asks for clarification on publicly printed facts and practically gets called a traitor to the Democratic Party. How fun!

(Edit: removed reference to Ann Coulter, lol)

[JeniB]

24. I didn't call him a republican.

I said he "sounds like" a republican. There is a difference and that's not inflammatory, it's just getting out how you feel about a candidates ideas.

[Andromeda]

22. Candidates attack each other..

and Gep is no different than the others. They all acuse each other of things and they get it thrown back at them. That's all part of politics and it's going to get uglier. For one, I don't believe Dean is going to cut S.S. or any other entitlement without having something better to replace it. He's proposing a national health care system---building on what already exists and making it better--- and that does include medical care and prescriptions for the elderly. If you want to know more about Dean's policies go to his web site and read what he says.

Just because Gephardt says it's so doesn't mean it is. They are taking comments Dean made 7 or 8 years ago and he's changed his views on a lot of things since then because the country has changed a lot during that time. Any good public servant is going to be willing to change their views if it is for the greater good.

[w4rma]

14. Dean wants to expand medicare and protect SS w/o raising retirement age.

Social Security
…
The actions of this President and this administration are threatening the soundness of our Social Security system and of our private pension systems as well. By creating the largest deficits in history and adding irresponsibly to the federal debt, he has given Americans worried about their retirement even more cause for concern.

As President, I will be committed to preserving the integrity and long-term stability of the Social Security Trust Fund. I will oppose privatizing the Social Security System. And I will pursue a responsible economic agenda, and under my plan we will never have to consider raising the retirement age.

The long-term future of Social Security and financial security for all of us in our retirement years depends on ensuring a healthy rate of economic growth over the next several decades. Even a modest increase in long-term growth rates will ease the burden on the Social Security Trust Fund. If we do need to bring more money into Social Security, then I'm prepared to look at reasonable options for expanding the ceiling on payroll taxes.

The best guarantee for our Social Security, therefore, is an economic plan with three basic principles:

First, we must create economic growth and jobs new jobs, more jobs, and better jobs for Americans;

Second, we must return to fiscal sanity, for the sake of future generations, yes but also for the sake of our very national security. We cannot be a world-class country if we are the world's largest debtor;

Finally, we must reform our tax system. When I am President, I will work to repeal the top heavy Bush tax cuts, and replace them with a system that is fairer, and simpler, and places less of a burden on working Americans who live off their paychecks.
…
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7343

Medicare
…
For a year now, I have been traveling this country advocating a repeal of Bush's tax cuts so that we can provide universal healthcare and restore fiscal discipline. Many have questioned the political wisdom of challenging the president on politically popular tax cuts.

I believe, however, that given a choice between having health insurance or keeping all of the Bush's tax cuts in place, most Americans will choose health insurance. My plan will cost $88.3 billion -- less than half of the president's tax cut -- with money left over to pay down the deficits run up by this administration.

My plan consists of four major components.

First, and most important, in order to extend health coverage to every uninsured child and young adult up to age 25, we'll redefine and expand two essential federal and state programs -- Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program. Right now, they only offer coverage to children from lower-income families. Under my plan, we cover all kids and young adults up to age 25 -- middle income as well as lower income. This aspect of my plan will give 11.5 million more kids and young adults access to the healthcare they need.

Second, we'll give a leg up to working families struggling to afford health insurance. Adults earning up to 185% of the poverty level -- $16,613 -- will be eligible for coverage through the already existing Children Health Insurance Program. By doing this, an additional 11.8 million people will have access to the care they need.

Many working families have incomes that put them beyond the help offered by government programs. But this doesn't mean they have viable options for healthcare. We'll establish an affordable health insurance plan people can buy into, providing coverage nearly identical to what members of Congress and federal employees receive.

To cushion the costs, we'll also offer a significant tax credit to those with high premium costs. By offering this help, another 5.5 million adults will have access to care.

Third, we need to recognize that one key to a healthy America is making healthcare affordable to small businesses.We shouldn't turn our back on the employer-based system we have now, but neither should we simply throw money at it. We need to modernize the system so employers will have an option beyond passing rising costs on to workers or bailing out of the system entirely. Fortunately, we have a model of efficient, affordable and user-friendly healthcare coverage: the federal employee health system.

With the plan I've put forth to the American people, we'll organize a system nearly identical to the one federal workers and members of Congress enjoy. And we'll enable all employers with less than 50 workers to join it at rates lower than are currently available to these companies -- provided they insure their work force. I'll also offer employers a deal: The federal government will pick up 70% of COBRA premiums for employees transitioning out of their jobs, but we'll expect employers to pay the cost of extending coverage for an additional two months. These two months are often the difference between workers finding the health coverage they need, or joining the ranks of the uninsured.

Finally, to ensure that the maximum number of American men, women and children have access to healthcare, we must address corporate responsibility. There are many corporations that could provide healthcare to their employees but choose not to. The final element of this plan is a clear, strong message to corporate America that providing health coverage is fundamental to being a good corporate citizen. I look at business tax deductions as part of a compact between American taxpayers and corporate America. We give businesses certain benefits, and expect them to live up to certain responsibilities.
…
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_health

The plan will cost an estimated, “$88.3 billion”. This is paid for from some of the money saved by repealing Bush's tax cuts.

The Dean proposal expands Medicaid and CHIP to ages 25 and under. CHIP is expanded to adults earning up to “185% of the poverty level” (currently, $16,613).

For the “capitalist” half of the Dean plan: Folks with high health premium costs recived “a significant tax credit” to cushion the costs. The current “employer-based system” in use now will be modernized by upgrading it to the same healthcare coverage that “federal workers and members of Congress” have available to them.

Small buisnesses of less than 50 workers get lower rates than their larger competitors. Employers pick up the tab for 2 months in between jobs, but the costs of the COBRA premiums for those 2 months are subsidized, at 70%, by the federal government for employers. Corporations will receive “business tax deductions” as an incentive for supplying health care to their employees.

[MercutioATC]

16. Jeni, do you have a Dean qoute that isn't 8 years old?

Dean has addressed issues on his previous position on SS/Medicare, stating that the situation was different eight years ago and he does not feel the same actions are necessary today.

That said, what don't you like about Dean's CURRENT stance on SS/Medicare?

[Nicholas_J]

28. June 22, 2003:

Dean: $85,000, maybe you raise it to $100,000 or whatever the numbers are. We’ve got to look at the numbers to figure out what you do. You get the Social Security problem off the table first by fixing it and then not allowing the Congress to keep taking money out of the trust fund. The president’s financing his tax cuts by taking money out of the Social Security trust fund. That’s ridiculous—first. Secondly, what do you do about the budget? You restrain spending. You do not have to actually make cuts in things like Medicare or in things like Medicaid or even in Defense. What you have to do is restrain the increases in spending.
Russert: When the Republicans tried to limit the growth, the Democrats said that was an actual cut.
Dean: Well, they’re going to say what they’re going to say. All I...
Russert: You would be willing to limit the growth...
Dean: Absolutely.
Russert: ...in Defense, in Medicare and Social Security?
Dean: You have to do that. If you don’t go where the money is—Social Security, we’re going to fix differently. We’re not talking about Social Security. We’re talking about Medicare. We’re talking about Defense and we’re talking about all the other things the federal government does. But I want to put the tax cut back into that budget. They need it to balance the budget.

http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp?0sl=-13

Limiting the growth of medicare and social security is the way Republicans begin the cuts. If you limit growth, and the number of people requireing the services grow, you are cutting the budgets in thesec areas. It is a matter of semantincs. but limiting growthe IS cutting. Dean did similar things as governor, to programs for the elderly, the blind, the disabled...he treid to cut growth, but cutting cost of living increases to those recieving benefits:




Dean trimmed spending or held down increases in areas held dear by the liberals. More than once, Dean went to battle over whether individual welfare benefits should rise under automatic cost of living adjustments. Liberals were particularly incensed when he tried that tactic on a program serving the blind, disabled and elderly, which he did several times.

Dean turned often to the bully pulpit to belittle and berate them.

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may%5F03/may%5F19/news/reg%5Fvt0519a.asp

Dean can try playing with words, and his supporters try to make claims about Dean that are not true, but essentially, there has been NO change in Deans conservative, dare we say it, republican like approach to government and government budgets. HE is trying to spin it so his stance does nout SOUND as bad as it really is, But Dean past performance in this area TOTALLY belies anything he istrying to avoid saying as a candidate.

I think not.

[MercutioATC]

31. You don't even address the issue in that post.

Jeni's post was about raising the SS elegibility age and slashing benefits. The only quotes she provided were from 1995. I asked if she had more recent quotes.

You posted a 2-part post, the first part of which doesn't deal with the issues Jeni raised, but raising the FICA cap (something that happens every year anyway). While this would cost me money personally, it would be one way of helping to secure Social Security without placing any additional burden on the poor or lower middle class. I would think that somebody in favor of progressive taxation would support raising or eliminating the FICA cap. You also seem to take issue with Dean's suggestion that we try to restrain spending. It seems to me that 1) bringing more money into the system by raising the FICA cap and 2) finding ways to spend the money more responsibly would be the ONLY way to "save" Social Security.

The second part of your post is an opinion piece about how some disagreed with Dean's PAST policies. Again, I was asking about present policies, not the past.

What, exactly, don't you support about raising the FICA cap (other than the fact that Dean supports considering it)? How do YOU propose we get Social Security on more stable footing?

[polpilot]

18. Since 1993 Dean has suggested tweaking the systems based on the

economic realities of the country. No big deal. Thoughtful planning for the future of these programs versus 'give everybody everything all the time' for a vote.

Look where No Planning has gotten us in Iraq, a war decide by political polling.

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The New Democratic Party

[arcos]

19. Congratulations JeniB!

You are now oficially in the top tier of candidates competing for the Official Dean Bashing award, to the DUer who can post, find (and make up) bad stuff about Dean. You will face tough competition from two fellow DUers, though.

:eyes:

[xJlM]

29. You don't have to make stuff up

I'm afraid I can't see overlooking all the flip-flops and reversals of former statements, as well as denial of his own statements.

[Octafish]

32. What's made up?

If you disagree, please state where and why. JeniB's post is referenced throughout. It seems if there are factual errors, they are from the sources. Perhaps you don't like seeing your candidate's positions brought to the light of day? I wouldn't either, if my horse said that stuff.

[MercutioATC]

34. Nothing is made up. And Kucinich isn't pro-choice.

...well he WASN'T 8 years ago...

Are you beginning to see how ridiculous it is to base a candidate's current positions on where they stood 8 years ago? People's views evolve. That's a good thing.

It's a lie to state that Dean holds the same views now. He's stated that he ses the curent situation differently. It's simply misleading to INSINUATE that Dean's position hasn't changed since 1995. That's what Jeni did.

[Octafish]

36. No one insinuated anything.

The original poster stated a position and backed it up with information. The reader, not the original poster, is responsible for knowing what you stated — that a candidate can evelove a position over eight years. Otherwise, who is to say what Dean knows now? Joe Trippi? You? Certainly not me. All I know is what I know. What I read I think about.

[MercutioATC]

37. So if I post a thread stating "Kucinich sounds a lot like a Repub on

a woman's right to choose" and use 8-year-old quotes, that wouldn't be misleading?

[Octafish]

39. Considering Kucinich only recently started to be Pro-Choice

... It's really caveat emptor, eh MercutioATC? Kucinich only relatively recently became Pro-Choice when he declared (or was about to declare) he was running for President. For much of his public life, Kucinich was against abortion in most cases (from what I understand). I don't have his voting record. I don't care to look that up. If you want to supply it, great.

My point is the reader holds ultimate responsibility for what he accepts as truth, fact, rhetoric, propaganda, disinformation, misinformation, lies, and a White House press release.

Remember, too: DU isn't Intro to Political Science, it's a public forum, and what's written in it isn't supposed to be held to the same standards as that of a college text. Some people try their best and put out some info that would make an excellent resource for publication. Others put out condescending drivel that would sound at home coming from the mouth of the Stooge Gingrich.

For me: My main thing is kicking that unelected Little Turd back to Crawford. After that, indict the BFEE front man and the rest of the crooks on trial for High Crimes and Treason and put them all on trial. I've posted plenty on the subject — opinion and fact, including links. I KNOW the best candidate for that job is John Kerry.

[MercutioATC]

40. I respect your opinion, but that's exactly what it is...an opinion.

...as was the majority of the original post. Opinions are great...I have nothing against them. MY opinion is that as long as we use extremist language like "Bush Family Evil Empire" we're doomed to be viewed as conspiracy theorists and we'll never be taken seriously. That's just my opinion, though.

The FACT is that Dean has stated that he views our situation in 2003 as different than 1995 when he suggested that raising the SS eligibility age to 70 might be something to consider. He's clearly stated that he no longer thinks that measure is necessary. That's a FACT, and that's all I stated in my previous post.

What issue do you take with that statement?

[Mairead]

20. Is it fair to bring up stuff he has repudiated?

Without evidence that his repudiation is false, I mean?

I don't support Dean at all, but having to reach back to 1995 seems weak at best. It would have been valid in '96 or even '98, but '03? Surely there's more recent stuff, if the criticism is still valid?

[JeniB]

26. That happens to be when the issue came up.

Because he hasn't been part of Congress, the times he's weighed in when an issue was up for debate is when you get the quotes. I didn't make this stuff up, it's out there and so I used it. When I read it, it made me see how really leaning toward the right he is and that made me think it would be good for discussion. Sorry. I don't mean to be a basher, but my candidate gets bashed more than anyone and somethimes it feels good to give it back.

[Rose Siding]

33. So can we only go back 8 years?

Because go back to '88 and you wouldn't recognize Dick. He opposed the minimum wage and the Dept of Education, supported a freeze on SS and a Constitutional Amendment banning abortion.

I don't have Nexxus like his campaign probably used for his new smear site but there may be some interesting quotes he made on those issues.

So what are the rules for this new brand gotcha? 10 years? 20? 25?

I only have some various Google sites for reference. This Mother Jones article contains the archaic positions that I've mentioned:

http://www.motherjones.com/mother_jones/SO94/blow.html

[dsc]

25. Here is some missing context for the "worst things" quote

DEAN: Of course I support Medicare. That's ridiculous. I certainly have been very angry at Medicare over their bureaucratic stuff.

They're really difficult bureaucratically to deal with.

(Note: This is backed up in what Gephardt quotes from.

In the 8/3/93 AP story with the ominous title “Liberal Doctor Is Conservative on Health Care Reform,” Dean followed his “worst things” comment with:

“My father was in the hospital last year and he still can't get his bills straightened out because nobody who knows anything will talk to him at Medicare. It's just a pathetic bureaucracy.”)

Pretty big difference isn't it. I'm sure this is an honest mistake by Gephardt.

[Nicholas_J]

30. Again Dean reverts to personal anecdote

To make negative commests about things like medicare, but never comes up with valdi statistics to back up his pont of view...he did the same thing with both medical marijuana, and methadone treament:

The Chittenden County Democrat fought last year for a bill that would allow methadone clinics in Vermont. Dean, who is a physician, has opposed allowing methadone in the state because he believes it supplants one addiction with another and can have detrimental effects on the communities where the clinics are housed. After some political maneuvering, Dean relented on the issue but with the caveat that the clinics be housed in hospitals willing to operate them. The proposal still needs funding, said Leddy, who hopes to accomplish that this session.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/legislature/jan8/heroinfight.html

President George W. Bush - Rating: F

In short: Asked about medical marijuana as he campaigned for president in 1999, George W. Bush said he believes "each state can choose that decision as they so choose." Yet the Bush administration has arrested, prosecuted and imprisoned medical marijuana patients and providers at an alarming rate. Administration officials have aggressively campaigned against local and state proposals to protect medical marijuana patients.

Carol Moseley Braun - Rating: ?

In short: Carol Moseley Braun, who served as a U.S. senator from Illinois from 1992 to 1998, is something of a puzzle. In a 1994 letter to a constituent, she suggested that marijuana should be "decriminalized." But she never acted on the idea, and she carefully avoided taking a clear position when medical marijuana controversies arose later in her term.

Howard Dean - Rating: F+

In short: Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, who is a physician, is the only candidate who has actually killed a medical marijuana bill. Because of Dean' s actions, Vermonters with AIDS, cancer and other terrible illnesses still face arrest and jail under state law for using medical marijuana. Dean recently retreated from his earlier pledge to direct the FDA to study medical marijuana. His reversal and his actions have shown that medical marijuana patients can never trust him. The only reason we give Dean an F+ and not a straight F is because the latter grade should be reserved for Bush, who is as cruel and heartless as anyone could possibly be on the medical marijuana issue.

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v03/n1207/a03.html?204

AS governor, Dean vehemently opposed medical marijuana, always claiming medical opinion, but never citing actual data to back up his stances.


This sort of campaigning and reasoning for NOT passing legislation is the tratitional reserve of Republicans, who always cite annecdatal reasons for oppposing legislation, such as opposing mandatory seat belt lwas becasue they know of someone who was killed by a seatbelt, or against raising minimum wage becasue of the old Janitor they used to talk to at college who told them they just lost the job they were supporting an invalid wife, and sending three kids to Harvard because the minimum wage was raised. During Dean entirte political career, he more frequently was guided by his personal opinion about things, resisted all efforts to pass legislation that he did not personally agree, and more impoartantly, never let facts get in the way of his unwillingness to change his position.

Deans position on Social Security was clear in 1995, and is fairly clear now, though as presidential candidate he must make it vague in order to avoid losing the great number of votes he would most certainly lose if he actually let people know that he intends to do the very thing his original statements referred to. Dean, as governor, was extremely inflexible, and is unlikely to have changed and in the last 18 months.

[MercutioATC]

38. I've heard you sound unsatisfied...what's YOUR opinion of Medicare, Nick?

Healthcare seems to be an issue for you. You've sounded unhappy with benefits currently available to you. Are you objecting to Dean's problems with Medicare?


(I seem to remember that you were looking into programs in Vermont before which is why I assumed Medicare was an issue for you. If you're covered privately, I retract my question)

[genius]

27. That's for sure

We need to run a Democrat. I am not willing to work for a Republican.

[KaraokeKarlton]

35. Not really

I don't know of many Republicans who have repeatedly testified to Congress trying to get Medicare altered so that it encourages home care over institutionalization for the elderly and disabled. And Dean's position on Social Security is a good one. Leave the age where it's at and tweak things to make sure it doesn't go bankrupt. I forget the exact terminology, but what he has said makes great sense. I'm sure someone else can elaborate. As a Vermonter, I'll tell you right now that ANYONE who claims that Dean is bad on health care is full of shit. Just as Clinton said in Iowa last weekend, there isn't ANYONE better of Health Care than Howard Dean.