Ohhh crap....five days and the bat is back!!!

[Nazgul35]

Can you resist? Arrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhh

soon we will be drawn to the irresistable urge to give more money....

:evilgrin:

[Cush]

1. huh?

[Sean Reynolds]

2. Dean's fund bat!

GO DEAN!

[Fabio]

3. Wonder what the goal will be?

And frankly, hope Dean falls short. Sorry.

[Sagan]

5. well, that's nice.

I can understand wishing your own candidate well, but it's pretty counter-productive to wish other dem candidates ill.

Nice attitude.

[Sean Reynolds]

7. Wouldn't be the first.

Most people that don't support Dean here hope he falls FLAT on his face. They hate the man and I question if they'll even support him IF gets the nomination.

Sad isn't it?

[Fabio]

8. You are right.

I'd happily vote for any of the nominees, except Dean, which would be a pretty bitter pill to swallow. Probably would still happen though.

I think he has run a great campaign. No doubt - though I think that has more to do with Trippi than Dean. But I dont trust him. Not one bit. And I think he is the most calculating and least sincere of all the majors. Flame away.

This is ONLY opinion.

Btw, of course i want him to fail in fundraising. Are you hoping the other candidates do better in the polls despite yourselves?

[mistertrickster]

9. Yeah, MD's are known for being liars . . . not like lawyers or

Republican politicians. It would be much better to have four more years of a proven liar than one whom we just don't trust because of our intuition or something. <sarcasm off>

[Fabio]

16. hey

my father was a republican pol, and he was no liar or cheat. In fact, he was pretty damned popular. Of course, the GOP has swung far right since his day, but I take offense to that comment.

[w4rma]

18. Sen. Jim Jeffords (I-VT) *was* a Republican pol, too.

I don't think Jim Jeffords would be offended with that comment at all.

CIC Distributes Jim Jeffords Toilet Paper to Senate offices, bathrooms
Jim Jeffords Toilet Paper graces the stall of this bathroom in the Hart Senate Office Building.
http://www.conservativeaction.org/photo.php3?photoname=jeffordstp1

[Fabio]

20. Did you read the comment?

that all republicans are liars? but that doctors are golden? ha

[w4rma]

22. Where did anyone say …

… that (all?) doctors are golden or that all Republicans are liars?

Translation of mistertrickster's post for the sarcastically challenged:
MD's are {not} known for being liars . . . like lawyers or Republican politicians. It would {not} be {at all} better to have four more years of a proven liar than one whom we just don't trust because of our intuition or something.

[Fabio]

24. your translation

leaves me speechless. maybe the post was meant to be endearing to lawyers and republicans. oh, I get it. Oh wait, no I dont.

[w4rma]

30. That comment definitely wasn't meant to be endearing to lawyers or GOPers

But it didn't say that *all* Republicans or lawyers are liars. It literally said that Republicans and lawyers are known for lying.

I would agree with the lawyers part. I'm not sure if I agree that all Republicans are *known* for lying. IMHO, the Republican leadership *is* a bunch of liars and propagandists. Regular Republicans are not, in general, liars or propagandists.

[newsguyatl]

10. anyway

enough of you...

be gone with your 21 posts...

[Fabio]

11. 21 posts.

but a lot more knowledge on this subject than you.

hugs and kisses...

[Sean Reynolds]

13. So who do you support?

[Fabio]

15. I cannot support Dean.

Truthfully, I very much dont like him. Why? Well, for one, I've seen him attack other candidates long before it was cool (read: necessary), I see his packaging of his opposition to the war as opportunistic, and I think he has changed too many of his positions for my comfort. At the end of the day, I think that Howard Dean is pretending to be something he isnt.

In the meantime, I would happily support, give money too, work for, etc:

Edwards
Kerry
Clark
Kucinich

[Sean Reynolds]

17. I'm not going to turn this into my candidate is better than yours.

But I will say a few things; Dean didn't attack candidates like he's being attacked now. And when he did he apologized for it and has been calm since. His opposition to the war was FAR from being opportunistic because it was a HUGE gamble to not support such a popular war by such a popular president. IMO Edwards, Kerry, and the rest that did support the war did so in an opportunistic way because they quivered to the fear of a popular president.

Please tell me how he's changed too many times for your liking? Or do you like a candidate that sets one belief in stone and wont be persuaded to at least open his mind to something new?

[Fabio]

23. Response.

But I will admit upfront that this will get us nowhere. Here goes anyway:

1) The Attacks: First off, my statement was that Dean started attacking other candidates first - calling them Bushlite, wafflers or whatever. We will always disagree on the severity of the attacks because we support different people. My statement was that of timing.

2) The War: For an established candidate in October, I agree with the premise that not supporting the war would have been a gamble. However, Howard Dean had very little traction as a candidate until he started speaking out against the war (Nevermind that in the run up he advocated solutions like Biden Lugar). From that standpoint, it wasn't a huge gamble because he had nothing to loose. As many have pointed out here, he had $170k in the bank on January.

3) The Waffling/Pandering: The list of areas where Dean has tailored his message is long, but I will just spell out some of the most glaring in my mind:

1) Social Security: Dean on the record considers raising age for benefits, then flatly denies it in a nationally televised debate.
2) Environment: Dean is for shipping Nuclear waste to Yucca as governor, has problems with it as potential POTUS.
3) Taxes: Claims to want to get rid of all Bush's tax cuts and vocally attacks those who want to keep some tax cuts as Bushlite - but seeing he is on the losing side of the issue to dems like Kerry and Edwards, begins putting feelers out about tax reform.
4) NAFTA: Talks with union audiences and newspapers about the need to create bilateral trade agreements with environment and labor standards similar to America's. Meanwhile, it turns out he is on the record of having been "a strong supporter of NAFTA", even attending the signing ceremony in Washington.

[w4rma]

28. response to Fabio's Response

1) Dean's rhetoric back when the folks he was labeling as "Bushlite" were saying that folks who were opposing the invation of Iraq were "soft on defense" mirrors exactly the feelings of the "focus groups" (as Bush labeled them) who turned out in the millions all over the country and in the 10s of millions throughout the world.

2) Sunday, October 6, 2002:
…
Speaking at a fundraising dinner filled with activists wary about going to war again in the Persian Gulf again, Sens. John F. Kerry (Mass.) and John Edwards (N.C.), and Vermont Gov. Howard Dean highlight the spectrum of opinion within the Democratic Party as lawmakers in Washington prepare to vote on a resolution authorizing war.
…
Dean, whose advocacy of liberal domestic policies has struck a chord among grass-roots activists here, offered the sharpest dissent. He contended that Bush has yet to make a compelling case to justify going to war.

"The greatest fear I have about Iraq is not just that we will engage in unwise conduct and send our children to die without having an adequate explanation from the president of the United States," he said. "The greater fear I have is the president has never said what the truth is, which is if we go into Iraq we will be there for 10 years to build that democracy and the president must tell us that before we go."
…
http://www.dre-mfa.gov.ir/eng/iraq/iraqanalysis_27.html

3-1) Within a few hours Dean explained that he had mistated that he had "never favored" raising the retirement age. He had done so 7+ years ago.

3-2) He took a NIMBY position as a governor. He was primarily responsible for his state. As president, who has the whole country as a "back yard", it is my understanding that he sides with the Democrats in the U.S. Congress who disagree with Bush over Yucca Mountain.

3-3) Position has been to repeal *all* of Bush's tax cuts. Only about (I think) 1/5 of the resources directed away from the growing federal deficit in the Bush tax cuts is directed at the middle class. Dean's position has been to pay for expanded medicare, CHIPS and HMO coverage with with some of the savings from the repeal. He may change his position on the repeal of the middle class tax cuts that Dems in Congress fought to get included in the bill.

3-4) position is pro-fair-trade. Says free-trade helped Vermont because of the trading with Canada which has similar or better environmental and labor laws. Says **free**-trade hasn't helped other areas of the country nor has it helped grow a middle class in other countries. Wants to reform trade agreements for fair-trade. The "strong supporter" quote was from 7+ years ago.

Extremely massive information dump on Gov. Howard Dean, M.D. (v2.0)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=41214

[Fabio]

31. You obviously put

alot of thought into your responses, so I dont feel like sparring. You are entitled to your thought. I would just say that, in total, I still see alot of mistatements, modifications and clarifications from Dean.

[KaraokeKarlton]

19. Well he's the only one of the bunch that I do trust

But then he was my governor for a long time so I know that he's honest and worthy of my trust. There's no doubt he would do some things you wouldn't like, but he only does things he truly believes is best for the people he serves. Even those in Vermont who don't always agree with him still respect him an awful lot. We also re-elected him 5 times. That only happens in Vermont if you do a good job and are honest. We don't keep dirty and lying politicians here. We give them the boot. Politics here are open to the public and there are many people who are active in politics. Nothing can be kept secret or hidden. There's also no skeletons in Dean's closet. The minor things you hear about are the worst you're going to ever hear about him. It's a shame you're missing out on one of the last genuinely honest politicians this country has. Once he's nominated and wallops Bush in grand fashion and starts fixing the mess Bush has made you'll be singing a much different tune.

[indigo32]

21. Thx Karaoke

That is definitely the impression I get of him.

[KaraokeKarlton]

26. You're welcome

This is the way I see it...we don't need a war veteran. That's why there is a military advisor position in the administration. We don't need anyone with foreign policy experience. That's why we have advisors in the administration for those issues. What we need is someone with executive experience who is able to make the tough calls, hard decisions and solve problems to fix the horrible mess Bush has made. I know Dean has this experience because he inherited one hell of a mess in Vermont when Snelling died and Dean took over. Snelling was a Republican and instead of replacing them all, Dean worked with them and made a lot of progress. Dean has a proven ability of working with both Democrats and Republicans to get things done. It's going to take someone who can do that to make any kind of progress at all. He's strong, tenaciouis, smart and fearless. He has the necessary experience to fix things. The MOST important experience is the executive leadership and know how. Dean and Graham are the only two who fit that bill. I have no idea what kind of job Graham did in Florida, and he hasn't been in an executive position for quite awhile now. Dean is the one I have the confidence in and he's also bringing an entire new base into the mix. It doesn't matter how many "super delegates" anyone else gets because not only has Dean got a lot of support from the usual base, but he also has an entire new base of his own. There will be a record number of primary voters this time around just because of Dean.

[Fabio]

25. I appreciate the insight.

and your framing it historically. I can honestly say I truly dont like the man. I have met him, I have watched him, and that's about it for me. I am not in the business of trying to persuade others likewise. Good luck to you.

[KaraokeKarlton]

27. Out of curiosity

What is it about him that you don't like? If it's just because he came out swinging first, I don't think that's really fair. His criticisms have been pretty consistent with the views of many, many people. Some of the other candidates made some very poor choices in how they voted. Those votes are their record and their record is open to criticism. He was a long shot when he entered and the only way to get his message out was to get heard. Frankly, I think he has been a lot more fair than some of the others because his criticism has been of his rival's records, not of their "fitness to serve". Quite honestly, I've been VERY turned off by those remarks made by some of the candidates. It's okay to criticize the records of the others, but character assasinations are uncalled for from within the same party. That's just bad politics.

I'll say this, though. Dean will say things he either shouldn't or had ought to say a little differently, but that's because everything you hear from him comes from him. He doesn't use speech writers and he gets out there and is just who he is, take it or leave it. He did some really great things here and I personally have a much better life because of his actions as governor. He'll make a great president who finally accomplishes something regarding the millions of people who are uninsured. Not only can he get it passed, he WILL get it passed. He has an uncanny ability of getting things passed.

[Fabio]

29. ..response..

Your email is thoughtful and I appreciate it. At a very high level, I think that Dean has mischaracterized alot of the actions of his opponents, ie calling any of his opponents Bushlite (with the exception of lieberman) seems completely unfair. Also, I think he has rode the liberal mantle much stronger than what's in his heart.

[KaraokeKarlton]

32. You know

If voters didn't already feel that some of the others were helping Bush too much, that comment would never have picked up any steam.

On the whole liberal thing...Dean has never claimed to be a liberal and his supporters know he's not a liberal. No one is supporting him because they are under the false impression that he's a liberal. The press is responsible for that label and only because they were basically too lazy to look closer because they assumed Dean was just a flash in the pan. You really shouldn't fault Dean for what the press did. And his supporters DO know what his record is and they know he's not a liberal. He WILL pass some liberal leaning agenda, as he has done here in Vermont. He's got a good way of selling them to the center as well. I'm getting the impression that you feel as though Dean stole supporters your candidate was entitled to. It's like this...no candidate is entitled to anyone's vote. It doesn't work that way. Votes need to be earned. The person who works the hardest and campaigns the smartes is the one who usually gets those votes. That's what Dean has done. None of his supporters have been mislead or fooled, and we aren't a bunch of mindless zombies. We know his record and believe in Dean. Yes, him speaking out against the war got people's attention, but that's NOT why people have stuck with him. His record and the fact that he listens to and includes his supporters is what has kept people with him.

[Fabio]

33. More...

Look, being from Vermont and having a history with Howard Dean, I can accept your view of him. And I readily admit he has run an excellent campaign. But I dont think you are typical of all HD supporters in terms of knowledge. You simply have to go to one of his rallies (I was at Bryant Park) to know. That being said, it's not like other supporters of other candidates are more informed than the rank and file dean supporter. That's why the primary situation is fluid. Also, and this is not meant to slip in a last sneak attack, it does bother me that he has sealed his records for ten years and that he hasn't released campaign finance info from his tenure.

[huckleberry]

34. Thank you for your comments.

I agree with you that it's the press who are labeling Dean as a liberal and I've heard him say that in his speeches. The press treats the word "liberal" as a dirty word and I'm really sick of it!

I signed up for automatic monthly donations from my VISA card but now that the bat is back I'll donate extra this month!

Go Dean!!

[Uzybone]

12. You cant really mean that can you?

Thats one of the most ridiculous statements Ive read on this forum. You know damn well most dems will fall in line behind Dean IF he wins the nomination.

[JaneQPublic]

4. Thanks for the info!

I've budgeted a small contribution out of each paycheck, but if a bat is coming up, I hold off a few days until then... maybe lump a couple a payments together, for added effect!

[deutsey]

6. Over 401,000 people have signed up for the campaign so far!

.

[Scaramouche]

14. Now that is what I would call a...

401K plan...

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :dem: :dem: :dem: