BG: A back condition wins Dean a Vietnam-era draft deferment

[DJcairo]

By Sarah Schweitzer and Tatsha Robertson, Globe Staff, 9/21/2003

In February of 1970, with the Vietnam War raging, 21-year-old Howard Dean carried a set of X-rays and a letter from a Manhattan orthopedist named Hudson Wilson to Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn, where US military doctors determined that he was not fit for military service because of a back condition called spondylolisthesis.

Dean was classified 1Y, according to military records, meaning he was exempt from service for the duration of the war and free to head to Colorado after his Yale graduation, where he skied at Aspen and poured concrete. Spondylolisthesis is a condition caused by an unfused vertebra. When diagnosed nearly four years earlier, he was cleared to participate in all sports except long-distance running.

"I didn't try to get out of the draft," Dean has said. "I had a physical."

Among the candidates vying for the presidency, Senator John F. Kerry and retired General Wesley K. Clark served in the Vietnam War. The others served in the National Guard, were too young for the draft, or were recipients of deferments. President Bush served in the National Guard.

Military service is nonetheless a potential political minefield. Dean is mindful of that.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/09/21/a_back_condition_wins_dean_a_vietnam_era_draft_deferment/

[Christian73]

1. To me, this military stuff

is pure nonsense.

Unless the president himself is going to be coordinating troop moves and leading platoons into battle, it's irrelevant.

I would prefer we have a president who pursues peaceful means of conflict resolution.

[Nicholas_J]

95. Its not the service

Its the spinning about the way he got the deferrment., which means Dean knows that his use of a condition that did not prevent his pursuing other VERY strenuous activities like skiiing, would have not gotten him the deferment. If he could ski, he would have had ZERO problems with being drafted into a non-combattant position. In order for Dean to have been deferred,that conditions would have demanded that he be cabable of only the most sedentary activities. So it is obvious to ANYONE who was ever drafted, that Dean basically exagerated the degree that his condition effected him to get the deferment. He DID NOT go to the draft board and have them examine him have a doctor at the draft board state that he had a condition that made him ineligible. He went to the draft bgoard with medical records that stated he could not engage in ANY strenuous activities.
Skiing for the entire summer after this simply proves the point that the deferment was bogus.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

2. Running out of flame-bait material?

Why not try to explain why Dean has raised three times as much as Kerry has with his gimmick in only one day (to Kerry's 5 days). At least that would be something new to discuss.

[DJcairo]

9. Well, if money was all that mattered why not support Bush?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

12. Well if a crowd of a 150 was all that mattered...

...why not support Kerry.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

13. I know you are but what am I?

Of course money isn't everything, and I supported Dean before he had any bankroll for his campaign.

On the other hand, Kerry is trying like the dickens to raise money, and he doesn't even come close to Dean. Who has more ammunition to beat bush at this point? Who has shown he can compete with the $200M that bush is promising to unload to win? Who has an average donation of around $60 but truckloads of money to fund his campaign?

Dean Dean Dean Dean, as said by Kerry.

[Octafish]

63. "...carried a set of X-rays and a letter from a Manhattan orthopedist..."

It's no flame bait. It's a report of what happened and what was reported.

Dean's indicated all along that he went in for a physical and the Army doctors decided against him. It turns out he went in with a NOTE from a doctor.

Big difference. Big, big difference.

BTW: I bet it was hard for average people to get a note from their doctor.

[Nicholas_J]

100. It was VERY VERY difficult

Draft dodging was a most unpopular activity at the time, and most doctors were not about to co-operate, any more than they are to prescribe morphne for a headache, The rich, or very well off got out, the poor and lower middle class had to take their chances.

Like Pat Buchanan and his bad knees, and Rush Limbaugh, your doctors had to state that your condition DID cause limitations to physical exertion.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

92. Alright, it looks like the bat may be picking up the pace a little

$12,000 in the last hour...that is good news. But if we want to raise $500,000 a day, which is what we need to do to make the goal, we have to raise an average of $20,000 each hour and then $22,000 one hour.

Hopefully Monday's house parties will bring in a boost...I am getting really nervous.

Help make this a September to Remember

[arcos]

3. old news...

and no link.

[DJcairo]

8. Sorry, I added the link on edit.

[sfecap]

4. Here's an idea...how about we discuss John Kerry's

first marriage?

[dsc]

5. No

we are better than that.

[Norton]

10. It would be fun to watch..

Clark or Kerry nail Bush in the debates...

[virtualobserver]

11. I wasn't aware that Kerry had a personal history.....

I was under the impression that he was born a "swift boat commander" in Vietnam and then soon after he was transported to the Senate.

[Octafish]

37. Actually, the sad marriage shows his true character.

He stayed loyal to his wife. He respected her and she respected him. Unfortunately, they broke up, in the best interests of their children and each other. Things have worked out better for both of them. The proof is they worked together to raise their two daughters to be intelligent, kind and capable people.

BTW: His first wife has always maintained he'd make a great President.

[blm]

81. Go ahead, sfecap...she suffered from severe depression

and wrote a book about it once she gained control over it.

While she suffered, John Kerry had to take over most of the parenting duties with his two daughters. He must have been pretty sincere considering his first wife's brother is still his closest friend. If Kerry had been a prick towards his sister, I doubt they would have remained close.

Maybe that's why Kerry is such a feminist. He raised his daughters.

[bluestateguy]

6. Did he support or oppose the Vietnam War?

That then becomes the issue.

[DJcairo]

15. He lead a veteran movement to oppose it after coming back...

and having experienced first hand what was happening over there. All the while DSean was skiing in Colorado and pouring cement having gotten a draft deferment for a bad back.

[DJcairo]

16. ...and after watching friends die in battle and going through hell himself

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

19. DAMN HIM

Damn that man for having a deferment and not sitting at home at 21 and wallowing in self-loathing for not being asked by the military to help them in this righteous war! Damn him to hell!!! He's the devil I tell you, the DEVIL! :evilgrin:

[Vikingking66]

54. damn that man for having a brother captured and murdered in Laos

His brother died and he never knew why; I think it's fair to say that he suffered during the Vietnam war.

[blm]

103. While working for Poppy's CIA in Laos?

Or was he just on vacation?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sfecap]

24. Did you know that Kerry admitted to war crimes?

Be careful...your bashing is getting tiresome.

[dsc]

28. That was the other Senator Kerrey

the one from Nebraska.

[sfecap]

31. No, it was John Kerry.

It's a quote from a Boston Globe article done earlier this year.

He admits engaging in prohibited operations in Nam.

[dsc]

34. You are going to need a link

and prohibited isn't necessarily war crimes. Many soldiers smoked weed and drank on duty which is prohibited but I don't expect any tribunals on that anytime soon.

[sfecap]

40. Boston Globe , 6/17/03....

Again and again, the question was asked: Did Kerry commit atrocities or see them committed by others? Kerry stuck to his script.


"I personally didn't see personal atrocities in the sense I saw somebody cut a head off or something like that," Kerry said. "However, I did take part in free-fire zones, I did take part in harassment and interdiction fire, I did take part in search-and-destroy missions in which the houses of noncombatants were burned to the ground. And all of these acts, I find out later on, are contrary to the Hague and Geneva conventions and to the laws of warfare. So in that sense, anybody who took part in those, if you carry out the application of the Nuremberg Principles, is in fact guilty. But we are not trying to find war criminals. That is not our purpose. It never has been."

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061703.shtml

Skeletons stay around for a long time...smear at you own risk.

[MercutioATC]

51. Wow! Nice pull!

I'm not rabidly anti-Kerry, but that was one I haven't seen before. I'm impressed.

[blm]

104. Go ahead...go that route...and see how far it takes you.

You would do exactly WHAT to every combatant in Vietnam who was honest about what they saw and did there?

Was it the fault of the govt. who trained them?

[Octafish]

111. Blame the JFK Assassins for Vietnam

A few days before he died, Kennedy signed orders commanding the removal of all US military personnel from Vietnam by the end of 1964 — NSAM 263.

A few days after the assassination, Johnson countermanded those orders, stating the US would do whatever was necessary to help the South Vietnamese government win its war with the North — NSAM 273.

It's not funny. Nixon escalated the war, too. And while they are now gone to join those who died in southeast Asia, other bastards still live who need to be held accountable.

BTW: John Kerry believes in putting country ahead of himself. He felt the obligation to do his duty and volunteered for service.

Howard Dean, OTOH, believed in self preservation. His supporters call that being smart. Some call that being selfish and small. I call it draft-dodging.

EDIT: Misnumbered the National Security Action Memoranda. Added the following:

THE KENNEDY ASSASSINATION AND THE VIETNAM WAR
By Peter Dale Scott

EXCERPT...

NSAM 273, Paragraph 1: The Central Object

            While noting that the “stated objectives” of the new covert operations plan against North Vietnam were unlikely to be fulfilled by the OPLAN itself, Mr. Gelb, like the rest of the Pentagon Study authors, fails to inform us what these “stated objectives” were. The answer lies in the “central object” or “central objective” defined by the first paragraph of NSAM 273:

It remains the central object of the United States in South Vietnam to assist the people and Government of that country to win their contest against the externally directed and supported communist conspiracy. The test of all U.S. decisions and actions in this area should be the effectiveness of their contribution to this purpose.<17>

            To understand this bureaucratic prose we must place it in context. Ever since Kennedy came to power, but increasingly since the Diem crisis and assassination, there had arisen serious bureaucratic disagreement as to whether the U.S. commitment in Vietnam was limited and political (“to assist”) or open-ended and military (“to win”). By its use of the word “win,” NSAM 273, among other things, ended a brief period of indecision and division, when indecision itself was favoring the proponents of a limited (and political) strategy, over those whose preference was unlimited (and military).<18>

            In this conflict the seemingly innocuous word “object” or “objective” had come, in the Aesopian double-talk of bureaucratic politics, to be the test of a commitment. As early as May 1961, when President Kennedy was backing off from a major commitment in Laos, he had willingly agreed with the Pentagon that “The U.S. objective and concept of operations” was “to prevent Communist domination of South Vietnam.”<19> In November 1961, however, Taylor, McNamara, and Rusk attempted to strengthen this language, by recommending that “We now take the decision to commit ourselves to the objective of preventing the fall of South Vietnam to Communism.”<20> McNamara had earlier concluded that this “commitment…to the clear objective” was the “basic issue,” adding that it should be accompanied by a “warning” of “punitive retaliation against North Vietnam.” Without this commitment, he added, “We do not believe major U.S. forces should be introduced in South Vietnam.”<21>

            Despite this advice, Kennedy, after much thought, accepted all of the recommendations for introducing U.S. units, except for the “commitment to the objective” which was the first recommendation of all. NSAM 111 of November 22, 1962, which became the basic document for Kennedy Vietnam policy, was issued without this first recommendation.<22> Instead he sent a letter to Diem on December 14, 1961, in which “the U.S. officially described the limited and somewhat ambiguous extent of its commitment:…our primary purpose is to help your people….We shall seek to persuade the Communists to give up their attempts of force and subversion.’”<23> One compensatory phrase of this letter (“the campaign…supported and directed from the outside”) became (as we shall see) a rallying point for the disappointed hawks in the Pentagon; and was elevated to new prominence in NSAM 273(1)’s definition of a Communist “conspiracy.” It would appear that Kennedy, in his basic policy documents after 1961, avoided any used of the word “objective” that might be equated to a “commitment.” The issue was not academic: as presented by Taylor in November 1961, this commitment would have been open-ended, “to deal with any escalation the communists might choose to impose.”<24>

CONTINUED...

http://history-matters.com/essays/vietnam/KennedyVietnam1971/KennedyVietnam1971.htm

[carpetbagger]

29. Got the right Kerry?

Or just anyone named Kerry.

[DJcairo]

30. You are confusing him with Bob Kerrey

Learn your facts dude.

[sfecap]

33. I thought you'd bite, dude...

Shall I post the quote and make you eat your words, dude?

[peaceandjustice]

59. read the Globe article he linked.

It is clearly and without-a-doubt John Kerry, not Bob Kerrey.

[dsc]

25. While I don't have the exact same condition

I do have a bad back. Can you please PM me and let me know what I can and can't do to fit your definition of behaving like those with a bad back? I really would like to know this information so I don't offend your sensibilities.

[dsc]

50. I am kidding but on the square here

I would like that PM for curiousity's sake if nothing else.

[Nicholas_J]

101. Well, we dont get along politically

But if you are considering back problems for future avoidance of probable draft. I can tell you the conditions. trouble is, that you have to have a DOCTOR concur, and then it is no problem. With A.D.A. stuff is it more difficult, as both their doctors and your doctors must concur. And Bad back as in how do you know you have one. Does it just hurt, of have you had a lot of tests done. It takes a number of tests, but only a myelogram or discogram will reveal the extent of damage and/or nerve impingement in order to reveal the real story.

I would not advise the myelogram for fun, as they suck spinal fluid out of your spine, then inject radioactive dye into the spine, then hang you upside down (inversion boots at the end of a rotating table) and take pictures as the dye moves from the lower spine up towards the brain, they they keep you in those hospital for several hours with the headache from hell, and do a final brain scan and let you go if the radioactive material has decayed (short half life). I have had several. Not exactly something I would recommend for fun.

[Nicholas_J]

99. For deferment

The condition had to be one that physically constrained one from all but sedentary activities. That is to say, you must be disabled in some way order to be deferred. The condition must impose some inability to perform every day activities.

Same thing would be true now if they reinstatred the draft. If you had asthma, something that prevented physical exertion, that would exempt you. If you have any condition that a doctor will verify as requiring that you must engage in only sedentary work or recreation, that will defer you.

O.K. lets say you have a several herniated disks, and extreme exertion could result in them rupturing, preventing you from going to the bathroom, and so creating a life threatening situation, you could be deferred.

Its not behaving like you have a bad back that will do it. You have to get a doctor who is willing to state that you cannot engage in any type of physical exertion. You can have any number of herniated discs, and in a large number of cases, people have no symptoms at all. As a matter of fact, one in three people have disc herniations of some kind, and they have no idea that they do.

Sort of like Pat Buchanan getting out for bad knees, but now he can jog for miles.

ALl it took to get out of the draft was to have a DOCTOR who was willing to state that YOUR condition made you capable only of sedentary activities. That was what bought the deferment, Not the doctors at the draft board looking at the records and agreeing. If you brought your own records without a letter from the examining physician,(or the medical deferment form itself filled out by the doctor) this would not get you the deferment. They want evidence from a physicians who will state that this condition will prohibit you from any strenous physical activity.

[DemBones DemBones]

112. Senator Saxby Chambliss (R-GA), who took Max Cleland's seat

from him in 2002, was given a deferment for "bad knees" but now is a runner.

[Punkingal]

7. Link??????

Thanks.

Punkingal, DU Moderator

[MercutioATC]

14. spondylolisthesis...a definition

http://www.back.com/causes-mechanical-spondylolisthesis.html

It is a real condition and it is grounds for a military medical disqualification. Symptoms aren't always evident, so those with spondylolisthesis might feel no pain at times.

[DJcairo]

17. So why was he skiing and pouring cement if his back was so bad?

[MercutioATC]

23. Did you READ the "symptoms" section? It doesn't always cause pain

until later in life. It's still a disqualifying condition.

Christ, just read before you post...

[KaraokeKarlton]

26. He probably shouldn't have done either, as it wasn't good for his back

But at 21 years old people tend to ignore things like that. The issue with the condition that makes it disqualify people for military service is that with the rigorous demands of military service, people with the condition tend to get frequent injuries that requires that they take a lot of time off from physical activity. The military has the physical standards to avoid this from happening. Soldiers that have to take time off often aren't going to be able to be there at the drop of a hat. He would have been a liability to his fellow soldiers. He got the deferment because it was in the best interest of the military and soldiers that he not serve. It wouldn't have been fair to put someone easily injured on the battlefield where others would probably have had to help him if his back problem flared up. It likely would have under those conditions, as well.

[dsc]

21. Thank you

I had tried to find info on this but couldn't (I didn't know its medical name). I also am not a very good researcher truth be told. But again thanks.

[KaraokeKarlton]

18. If you have spondylolisthesis you usually can't even enlist

You can ask for a waiver, but they aren't typically given.

[DemDogs]

22. But if you bring your x-ray with you

to the draft board, you are asking to be let out. Everyone old enough to remember knows that the guys with x-rays were trying to get let out.
Doesn't matter to me, but when Dean says, "I could ski, I had no control over what the draft board did," it is more than a little disingenuous. He worked it. And if he would just say that, but he doesn't. I'm not flaming here, I just want candor from the guy who wants to be leader of the free world.

[dsc]

27. Those exemptions are for the people

depending on the soldier as much as for the soldier. I take it no one posting here has a bad back or else most of this nonsense wouldn't be posted. But if his back went out in combat he would have been worse than useless. He would have been a liability. The military wants low maintainence people. Dean was high maintainence.

[valniel]

91. Like Clinton and Bush, Dean wanted go get out of serving in Vietnam.

Dean, like Clinton and Bush, used all the means available to him, not to go to Vietnam. Neither Dean, Clinton nor Bush have been honest about it. This is what set Kerry apart, he enlisted and served with honor.

And, wrong about “I take it no one posting here has a bad back or else most of this nonsense wouldn't be posted.” I had back trouble which prevented me from international crewing competition, but I passed the Air Force medical and became a pilot.

[virtualobserver]

35. Since he had been diagnosed four years earlier

he would have been a fool not to have brought it up.

working it?

Do you think that they exempt people for this for no reason?

[KaraokeKarlton]

41. He had been diagnosed with the condition years beforehand

He knew he had a condition that made him unfit to serve and the responsible thing to do was to bring those records with him to share the information with the military. Would it have been better for him to lie and act like he didn't have the condition that disqualified him, go to Vietnam and get himself AND others killed when his back gave out and fellow soldiers got slowed down and became sitting ducks while trying to help him? Perhaps it would have been better to waste the time of the people examining him and costing the tax payers more money? Christ Almighty, do you criticize kids with Spina Bifida for not being able to participate in gym class just because all the healthy kids had to? Give it a goddamned rest already. This is the lamest damn criticism of Dean out there.

[ModerateMiddle]

65. He worked it.

That's what was missing in all of Dean's stories about what happened. When we asked about a "military physical" finding such a condition, we were poo-poohed. The guy took in the evidence he needed to get out of the draft.

Period.

[Nicholas_J]

78. Thats correct

I had both cervical spondilitis, cervical stenosis, and 4 unfused lumbar discs and that wasnt enough to keep them from trying to draft me. But becasue I had also registered for a deferment as a conscientious objector, they were NOT going to give a deferment to me NO matter what.

You had to have connections and doctors recognized by the draft board in order to avoid being drafted, and Dean was simply a coward, and used whatever influence his rich daddy had to get him out. Trying to spin it is even more enfuriating to those of us who didnt come from priviledged families. Anyone who is old enough to have gone through the process know what Dean is ALL about regarding this "They told me to come back when my country needed me " CRAP Dean is slinging.

[KaraokeKarlton]

79. Tried to draft you? Either they drafted you or they didn't.

By saying they "tried" it implies that you weren't actually drafted. So why weren't you drafted, Nicholas? Because of your back, perhaps?

I bet if you took your x-rays like Dean did to save them the time of checking it out for themselves they wouldn't have "tried" to draft you either.

[Nicholas_J]

97. Took my xrays.

My medical record. But I was also a vocal conscientious objector involved with a local organization in the New York area assisting others apply for this status. Many of us. opposing the military policy of only accepting religious objectors, filed as objectors of conscience, and like myself spent time locked up for objecting.

Dean went skiing.

[KaraokeKarlton]

107. You still didn't answer the question

Either they drafted you or they didn't. And I have to say that if your behavior on here is any kind of indication of the behavior you displayed while "objecting", I can't say I'm surprised you ended up getting "locked up". So, were you drafted or not? And why the hell are you so bitter with Dean over him getting the same deferment you most likely would have gotten if you had not decided to cause a disturbance? Perhaps you did get the deferment. However, I'm curious as to whether or not you ever actually went to Vietnam.

[Nicholas_J]

98. Whered you get your info

Not from the medical examination standards of the time, but probably from Deans own BULLSHIT.

If he was given a 1Y deferment, he could have enlisted. You can even try to enlist if you are 4-F and are a total schizophrenic. The draft medical examinations takes less time than eating a Big Mac and fries.

As a matter of fact, with a 1Y you can go directly to the board and enlist reqesting non combattant duty. 1Y was also the status granted to college students before they ended college deferments. Dean could have CHOSEN to enlist. That line about Dean not being able to enlist is a crock.


So Dean weaseled his way out

There were people who were functionally retarded who passed the draft examination and sent to Vietnam. So try finding out what actually happened before you post.

[KaraokeKarlton]

109. I didn't get the info from a political site

It was a website that listed medical conditions that disqualify people from being able to serve without a special waiver. With that condition, you can only serve if you are granted a waiver by the military. You would have discovered this yourself when you went to your induction had you not been protesting and causing a disturbance resulting in you getting thrown in jail, as you mentioned earlier in this thread. Google it yourself, Nicholas. I didn't save the link, and am not going to go hunt it down.

[DemBones DemBones]

113. If you can't provide a link, your information can't be confirmed.

And you mischaracterized what Nicholas said. He said that he was part of a group of conscientious objectors who protested the religious requirement imposed on those who filed for conscientious objector status and that he was locked up as a result of those protests. He did not say that he went to his induction physical and protested there.

Since Nicholas had an actual disability that should have gotten him a deferment, he took a risk in merely filing for CO status, not to mention protesting the Selective Service regulations. I remember all too well how young men were afraid to rock the boat by filing for CO status. And he's
right about how difficult it was to get a medical deferment, how physicians wouldn't write many of those letters like Howard Dean got.

[quinnox]

32. I see a lot of Dean supporters are sensitive about this issue

They are right to be, this is one of the main weaknesses of Dean when compared to Kerry or Clark.

[dsc]

36. Yeah

the fact desperate supporters of Kerry will tell lies about him is a weakness that Kerry doesn't have. I do agree on that.

[quinnox]

39. That is a Boston Globe story

What lies are you referring to? I don't see any lies in the story.

[dsc]

43. Do you really want me to post

what the Globe says about Kerry? Go to the Daily Howler and look around. I really don't think you want to use stories in the Globe to judge the relative merits of the candidates. I really, really, really don't.

[quinnox]

47. I'll give you that one

I agree, the Globe has done some hit pieces on Kerry before. That's why it is somewhat surprising to see this story. But my point is the story is factual. It isn't an opinion piece.

[dsc]

48. actually

I haven't a clue if they are right on the xrays to site one example. Also many of their worst pieces on Kerry were not on the op ed pages.

[KaraokeKarlton]

49. So you concede that the stories on Kerry are factual too, then

n/t

[MercutioATC]

38. Jesus, quinnox, have you READ the posts in this thread?

Spondylolisthesis is a medically disqualifying condition that often doesn't exhibit symptoms until later in life. Dean was diagnosed with spondylolisthesis. He was therefore disqualified from serving in Vietnam.

You've been clear about not liking Dean, but could you possibly concentrate on real issues?

[quinnox]

42. A candidates military service or lack of one

is a real issue. I never said Dean was cheating or anything like that, but it's a fact he didn't serve while Kerry and Clark did. That matters in my opinion.

[MercutioATC]

44. Fair enough. If it matters to you, it matters to you.

I don't agree that Dean supporters are any more "sensitive" about this issue than anybody else faced with misleading propaganda accusing their chosen candidate of dishonesty.

[virtualobserver]

45. does it matter if one of the candidates needlessly sent our boys to war

for political reasons?

[DJcairo]

53. The president and only the president sends "our boys to war"

The President and only the President can make the decision to"send our boys to war."

[MercutioATC]

55. The Congress, and only the Congress can pass legislation to support him.

...which way did Kerry vote again?

[DJcairo]

57. The resoltuion (if you've ever bothered to read it) promotes diplomacy

The resolution (which Bush siad he originally didn't even need) also asked the president to pursue diplomacy and to report to Congress. Bush abandoned the approach laid out by Congress when in January ( 3 months after the resolution passed) he rushed to war. That resolution did not "declare" war. Buch abandoned the diplomatic apporach prematurely. Congress had no power to stop that. The blame lies squarely with Bush so stop trying to divide the Democratic party ont his issue. By teh way, did you vote for Nader?

[MercutioATC]

58. "promotes" is the key word here...

Bush didn't need a resolution to declare war. Why, then, would a Democrat vote for a resolution that gives Congressional legitimacy to Bush's actions? There are NO enforceable provisions requiring Bush to "pursue diplomacy" as we can see by his failure to do so. It was a "save your political as" vote, pure and simple. I could let it go if the candidate said "I made a mistake". Kerry hasn't done so.

What does voting for Nader have to do with anything? For the record, I voted for Gore.

[Forkboy]

96. Nader doesn't have anything to do with it Mercutio

but when people have no real case they lob it out there like the Clinton's cock people.

[clar]

61. Before the vote

Byrd, Jim Jeffords and others warned that it was a blank check, aided the rush towards war and undercut UN diplomatic efforts. Go read some of their comments and juxtapose them with Kerry's remarks.

[Vikingking66]

56. Why is it important?

Sure, being in the military can lend a certain amount of experience when considering whether or not to commit troops in the field. But no U.S president since Washington lead troops WHEN they were president. Presidents make political decisions when they think military force is needed; generals carry out those orders as best they can. Generals aren't always the best judge of the greater geopolitical strategm;
for example McArthur wanting to A-Bomb and invade China during the Korean War.

I wonder what politics will be like when the baby boom generation is past the age of political office. Will politicians be required to have served in Grenada or the Gulf War? Frankly, the idea is to have civilian control of the military, not military dominance of the civilian government.

[peaceandjustice]

60. so you'd disqualify a paraplegic from the White House? (n/t)

[RevolutionStartsNow]

46. If this is Dean's biggest weakness...

he's home free.

...and I don't think it's a weakness at all, by the way.

[CMT]

52. I see that you are truly concerned about Dean having served in military

so I take it that you have served your country in our armed services as well? or are you just passing judgement.

By the way, Dean went on to medical school and became a doctor and that is a pretty wonderful thing too--rather than being in Vietnam perhaps killing people he took on a profession which saves lives.

[Another Bill C.]

62. It really was that way.

When I took my Navy physical, two doctors were discussing whether my feet were flat enough to turn me down. I still haven't figured out why flat feet were a factor in military physicals but they did reclassify people with flat feet and exempt them from the draft.

If Dean says a bad back was the reason for reclassification, I believe him. A person wouldn't make it throught Boot Camp or Basic Training with a bad back.

[KaraokeKarlton]

64. Flat Feet is similar to Dean's condition in that it requires a lot of care

and a lot of down time under rigorous physical activity. I have somewhat flat feet and end up having a lot of pain when I'm on them too long. There is no way I could be an effective soldier because I'd be a burden to everyone else and would slow everyone down.

[Mairead]

69. I've never seen someone who puts out more misinformation!

Dean's condition does NOT require 'a lot of care and a lot of down time'. Read what the AAOS has to say, why don't you? Furrfu!

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/fact/thr_report.cfm?Thread_ID=155&topcategory=Spine

[MercutioATC]

73. But it's STILL a disqualifying medical condition.

and that's the U.S. military's decision, not Dean's.

[KaraokeKarlton]

74. It most certainly DOES if you're a goddamned soldier in a war

The condition leads to many injuries and "down time" when the person with the condition is taking part in daily rigorous physical activities. Vietnam was hardly a stroll in the park once or twice a week. If Dean had of been drafted with the condition he WOULD have had a lot of injuries and spent a lot of time recovering from those injuries, making him unable to be a soldier. That is, afterall, the entire reason the military doesn't take people with the condition in most cases. Some people with the mildest of cases can apply for a waiver, but even then, it's not easy to be allowed to serve with the condition.

Tell you what, why don't you call a recruiter and ask them if you can enlist if you have the condition and see what happens. Developing the condition while serving is grounds for a discharge, by the way.

[Nicholas_J]

106. Flat feet are visible during a basic physical

Unfused spinal discs are not, and the decision as to whetther such a condition is debilitating must be diagnosed by the treating physician. Again, in order to get such a deferment, Dean had to APPLY for it. Come prepared to prove he was incapable of strenuous physical activity, which he obviously was capable of given his 80 odd days of ski vacation. The condition must prevent the very behavior Dean remembered so fondly, skiing. you made the point yourself. Flat feet would have prevented you from soldiering (actually if you are a woman , you acnt be drafted anyway), and would result in a classification of 4-F not 1Y. Dean had to apply for his deferment and come prepared to state that he was incapable of strenuous physucal activity.

This is the old dodge, same one that many other fiscal conservatives took, Saxby Chambliss with his 4F knees, Pat Buchanan too, Rush Limbaugh with his painful cyst, Jack Kemp, bad knee, GAry Bauer had a "QUESTIONABLE MEDICAL DEFERMENT", ANd Dennis Hastert, bad knees as well. Dean is in good company considering his close associations to conservatives and republicans in Vermont. He seems to have had the same ideas about getting a military deferment.

Now that is is a political liability, he has had to make up a clever story for all of those young supporters too young to remember the times he is refering to. More Dean mythology.

Dean like most of fiscal his conservative think alikes in conservative politics today.in, found convenient ways to avoid the draft. Money helped, as draft dodging was most unpopular during the Vietnam War, and only the well heeled could get a doctor to go along. Since many doctors of the time either served in WWII, Korea, or had to serve in the military, as the draft continued though the fifties and sixties, most doctors did not give deferments and only those with money could cut a deal.

Most OTHER Dems did not.

[MercutioATC]

110. Don't they ASK you if you have any medical conditions?

Tell me where this scenario is flawed.

Dean goes in for an examination. The military examiner asks him if he's aware of any medical conditions he has (I'd assume they'd ask). Dean says that he's been diagnosed earlier with a back condition. The examiner asks for more information. Dean's original doctor provides the necessary x-rays. Dean is medically disqualified.

No, I don't know how the event transpired, but I think it's silly to say that Dean must have brought x-rays with him to the examination because he was trying to get disqualified. I also think it's ridiculous to say that Dean found a "convenient" way to avoid the draft. He has a condition that the MILITARY has determined to be disqualifying. Dean had no part in that decision.

I also find it interesting that somebody who admittedly registered as a conscientious objector is so vocal about creating scenarios to "prove" that somebody else tried to avoid being drafted. You don't have one ounce of proof for your allegations. You are simply using your individual experience as a template to generalize what had to have happened in every medical examination with every doctor during Vietnam.

[DemBones DemBones]

117. The flaw in your scenario is that Dean took the letter and X-rays to

the physical he requested.

Someone went to Viet Nam in Howard Dean's place and he won't admit that he asked to be deferred from service. That bugs me. A lot of guys did alternative duty as COs, or went to jail, or went to Canada because they thought the war was wrong. A lot of guys went to Nam, and not many wanted to. Howard went skiing. That bugs me.

[MercutioATC]

118. I missed the link that said that he brought them to the physical.

...which is beside the point, anyway. Dean had a valid medical condition that the military had determined to be disqualifying. Had he lied to get the disqualification, I'd agree with you 100%, but he didn't. If somebody did, indeed, go to Vietnam "in Howard Dean's place", it was the military's decision, not his.

Dean, not being elegible for military service, stayed at school and then did what many college graduates do - took a year off and worked. He spent part of that time skiing and working for a concrete company. We've already waded through plenty of links to medical websites that show that, with his particular condition, that was a completely reasonable scenario.

Did Dean angrily storm out of the office after his physical and begin a letter-writing campaign to demand that he go to Vietnam? Of course not. He did, however, obtain a legitimate medical disqualifcation as thousands of others did.

[DemBones DemBones]

123. It's in the Globe article. There's also a quote from Dean about how

he checked his Selective Service records before starting to campaign for the presidency because he didn't want any unpleasant surprises. What did he fear might be in there? A notation by the military physician that he saw no evidence of a disabling condition but Howard had a doctor's note?

He also says that he didn't keep a copy of his letter to the draft board requesting a physical or his orthopedist's letter saying he shouldn't serve. His draft records have been destroyed (not mysteriously -- Selective Service destroys old records) and the orthopedist is dead so all we have is Howard's word. I have a problem trusting Howard's word, partly because of things he's said and done, partly because of my gut feeling about him.

Getting beyond my gut feeling, I don't fault him for wanting to avoid fighting in Viet Nam. Most guys felt the same way. I'd just like to know that the influence money can buy played no role in Howard's 1-Y classification. He wasn't completely disqualified from military service -- that's a 4-F classification -- just deferred. Selective Service could have taken away his 1-Y status, reclassified him 1-A, and drafted him if they'd run short of draftees.

[MercutioATC]

126. I did miss that but, again, it makes no difference...

As you say, his classification could have been changed. If he lied to get the deferrment and nobody would challenge him because of his "wealth and power", why wouldn't he claim a condition that would permanently keep him out of Vietnam?

I understand that you have a problem trusting his word, but yu have to admit that there's absolutely NO evidence of wrongdoing on Dean's part.

[DemBones DemBones]

115. Absolutely right. An uncle of mine tried repeatedly to enlist but

every military doctor who saw him spotted his flat feet right away and disqualified him. He literally drove all over the state trying to enlist. Another relatiive had high blood pressure so they had him lie down until they could get a low enough BP reading to qualify him for service and then they drafted him! That was in WW II but I don't know that things were much different for my generation during the Viet Nam conflict.

[genius]

66. He and Bush have a lot in common.

And he only wanted a delay before sending our troops into harms way in Iraq.

[MercutioATC]

67. You DO see the differnces between Biden-Lugar and the IRW, right?

Dean supported Biden-Lugar. He did NOT support the IWR.

[Mairead]

70. But judging by what he was saying as late as mid-February

he would have voted for it when push came to shove last October. As late as 20th February he was still in favor of unilateral invasion. He put conditions on it, but they were of the 'either the UN does it or the US does it' we-won't-take-peace-for-an-answer kind.

[LuminousX]

68. Oh Please

Not this old chestnut again.

You know what, America doesn't give a flying-f about Bush going AWOL, they aren't going to care about Dean getting out of Vietnam. You know what, many, like myself who are too young to have any recollection of Vietnam think "Yeah, I would have committed blatant acts of sodomy in the recruitment office to avoid Vietnam." So we see Dean, who has a verifiable medical condition which prevented him from serving and then hear about him skiing (did he go to the slopes right after he got his deferrment or did he have tact to wait a few days?) and we say "Damn rights, go skiing, celebrate the fact you aren't going to die to further some bizarro agenda."

This just isn't going to fly. There is no traction here. If you want to bring Dean down, keep focus on his economic policy. That is what it is all going to boil down to, who has the best way to create jobs in this country.

[ButterflyBlood]

71. give this a fucking rest

it's been said a million times. bottom line: people don't care, Bush isn't any better, whether he did have a bad back or dodged i don't give a shit, dodging the draft isn't wrong, shut up about this.

[Duder]

72. Good for Dean

John DiStaso of the Manchester (New Hampshire) Union Leader newspaper points out that 11 years ago, during the 1992 New Hampshire primaries, Bob Kerrey of Nebraska, a fellow Democrat, had contrasted his distinguished war record with that of the draft-dodging Bill Clinton. On February 27th, 1992, John Kerry then attacked his fellow veteran on the Senate floor. Kerry lamented that the subject of Vietnam service had been ‘inserted into the campaign.’ John Kerry told his fellow senators, ‘What saddens me most is that Democrats, above all those who shared the agonies of that generation, should now be refighting the many conflicts of Vietnam in order to win the current political conflict of a Presidential primary...We do not need to divide America over who served and how...’

[kang]

80. Kerrey mostly thought that Clinton couldn't be trusted

and to a certain extent, he was right. I voted for Clinton, but don't tell me that anybody here (and I'm a moderate) thought Welfare Reform was a good idea (especially now). We all knew that funding for job re-training wasn't going to happen. Also, there were a few issues of lying and questionable fundraising tactics (admittedly it was total war on both sides). So I think Kerrey was trying to get at this point that Clinton wasn't on the level.

But it doesn't really matter whether it's fair or not to criticize Dean for not serving. The "shouldn't matter" argument isn't as strong as the question of whether it will matter with many people. The fact that Bush went AWOL for a year and defended the skies of Texas is ammunition that can be used if given to the right candidate. Unfortunately, Dean was medicaled and went skiing. I think that's fine. I can't blame a guy for not disagreeing with the assessment that he shouldn't go to a hell-hole. Ali's one of my heroes and he didn't go. It doesn't mean he lacked courage...after all, nobody steps into the ring with George Foreman without having it.

My point is, can we drop this? Let's just leave at the fact that Kerry and Clark would be able to more effectively take advantage of the fact that the president and his Neo-Con group (Rummy and friends) never served, but are pushing our young men and women into harm's way in a reckless manner.

It's hardly Dean's biggest problem.

[DemBones DemBones]

75. Here's the problem: Dean denies trying to get out of the draft but

when you show up for an induction physical with X-rays and a doctor's letter detailing your condition (one that will give you a medical disqualification), you are most certainly trying to get out of the draft.

"I didn't try to get out of the draft," Dean has said. "I had a physical."

They look for flat feet at induction physicals. They don't X-ray every inductee to look for spondylolisthesis.

I don't fault anyone who tried to avoid being sent to Viet Nam. I remember those days all too well.

But it's dishonest and misleading for Howard Dean to say he didn't try to get out of the draft, the military doctor disqualified him, they discovered his problem at his physical, etc., if the facts are that "Dean carried a set of X-rays and a letter from a Manhattan orthopedist named Hudson Wilson to Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn" for his induction physical.

[dsc]

76. but their citation for this is . . .

nothing.

[DemBones DemBones]

77. Newswriters don't typically footnote their stories.

Write them a letter and ask if it bothers you. I believe he had a letter and X-rays because I don't believe this condition would have been found at an induction physical. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist or wouldn't have kept him from long-distance running but allowed him to ski and pour concrete. (I do know about back problems, to my sorrow.) It just means I think he'd have been drafted if he hadn't "worked it."

[DemBones DemBones]

83. I was just at the Boston Globe site reading another story and saw

this one so I read the whole thing. (There was no link here earlier and I hadn't realized the story was more extensive than what was posted here.)

A couple of interesting facts emerged in the latter part of the article.

#1 -- Howard Dean's draft lottery number was 143, making him quite draftable once he graduated from Yale (grad school deferments were nonexistent by that time.)

#2 "He (Dean) said he was not overly worried about being drafted and said the reason he wrote a letter seeking a military medical exam was to clarify his standing." So he asked for the physical, knowing he had the X-rays and doctor's letter to present. Not quite the same as going to a physical that Selective Service called him to and having a doctor discover his back problem, which is the way he's presented his story in the past.


Since you asked for a citation for this story, how will Howard Dean himself do as a source? I bolded that part to make it easy to sort out. Clearly, if Dean said he didn't keep copies of the X-rays or Dr. Wilson's letter, the X-rays and letter did exist and were given to the physician at the induction physical, presumably by Dean himself, as the writers said.


"The United States government said this is your classification," he said on NBC's "Meet the Press." "I'm not responsible for that. I didn't have anything to do with the decision. That was their choice."

The basis for his classification is difficult to document. The Selective Service System, following standard procedure, destroyed all records in Dean's file save his classification listings. Dean said he did not keep copies of the X-rays or Wilson's letter. Nor did he keep a copy, he said, of the letter he believes he wrote requesting a deferral from military service. His physician, Wilson, is dead.

<snip>

But if Dean has largely lived without notice of his condition, it has trailed him nonetheless. When he chose to seek the presidency, Dean made sure official records of his health problem contained no surprises.

"We didn't want my draft file becoming public without knowing what was in it," he said.


That last comment seems a little paranoid to me. If his being given a deferment was all above board, what exactly was he afraid of?

[DrFunkenstein]

84. Again, Probably Nothing...But...

The whole thing about Dean sealing up his records adds to this shadiness. Plus, I can't help but feel like this was an example of the Fortunate Son syndrome, where rich kids can get doctors to excuse them from service.

Note: This is just my gut feeling. Just because he got an x-ray and doctor's note before clarifying his standing doesn't mean anything. He could have gotten a physical while playing football and had been totally surprised by the findings.

There is only the smallest of chances that Howard Brush Dean III was using his patrician father's connections to pre-empt the medical examination. I am just surprised that the doctor didn't advise him not to go skiing or work in construction.

[acerbic]

82. BSgiza... n/t

.

[carpetbagger]

85. If you hadn't noticed, soldiers march and run!

If he wasn't cleared to run long distances, even in high school, he'd be in a real jam on the battlefield.

Now, if you jump up and down as you pour concrete, it will exacerbate this. If you don't, you'll be ok.

Same thing with skiing.

Unlike Bush, Howard Dean fulfilled his military service requirements. Those requirements didn't involve him being inducted, but he was up front with his condition. I'd imagine he'd have to lie to get in.

[DrFunkenstein]

86. I Didn't Realize That Infantry Was The Only Option

I guess the thousands of other jobs among the four branches of service - not to mention the National Guard - all involved jogging up and down the rice fields.

You can certainly say he was up front with his condition, and his X-ray and doctor's note were up in front of that.

What the hell is so hard about him admitting he didn't want to serve in a war he didn't believe in? Why does he have to pretend he was willing to serve?

[acerbic]

88. The actual question:

What's with the obsession of desperately, stubbornly, spammingly trying to make it an issue of if he was willing to serve when there was no question because according to the quite standard rules he wasn't supposed to serve? Oh, I guess I answered it too already... :eyes:

[DemBones DemBones]

89. Howard played intramural football at Yale -- hope you're not

going to try to tell us that football players don't run. ;-)

Howard should have handled this better, considering that he knew when he was in college that he wanted to get into politics. (He wrote an essay about it as a sophomore, seeing himself as a congressman at age 40.) Maybe he should have opted for a Guard slot like Dubya and Dan Quayle. He might have been disqualified due to the back problem but he'd have been able to say he tried to enlist.

[Andromeda]

87. Beating a dead horse again, eh?

Wake me up when you REALLY have something. Until then......:boring:

[DemBones DemBones]

90. Yawn all you like but this isn't going to pass the smell test for

a lot of voters.

[PAMod]

93. People that jump on a story like this aren't voting for Dean anyway

The people who support Dean will just dig in (and probably write another check).

[DemBones DemBones]

94. The many voters who aren't on the Dean bandwagon are

the ones who will take this seriously.

[PAMod]

102. No, only those who have decided they are against Dean...

will take this seriously.

The undecideds would be rolling their eyes at this irrelevant claptrap. This is the kind of thing that turns people away from politics.

Howard Dean is the kind of thing that turns people on to politics.

The "Dean bandwagon" is getting bigger all the time - I just hope everyone at DU is ready to climb aboard if he is the nominee.

[Mairead]

120. You might be right.

It's certainly true that a lot of people don't care about much. It's pretty much okay with them if poor kids go get killed or maimed while rich kids go skiing. Those people mostly focus on what affects them personally right this second.

But some people are better than that. Some care.

[indigo32]

129. Exactly

dead on right.

[Padraig18]

105. My head just exploded!

:grr:

[polpilot]

108. Dean: Experienced in avoiding unnecesaary killing of others. Go Dean!!!

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The NEW Democratic Party.

[JohnKleeb]

114. honestly I dont care

I dont think DK had a deferment he had a heart condition and this isnt a dumb excuse because a simliar thing exempts me. If Dean is hawkish then I may understand.

[DemBones DemBones]

116. But Dean doesn't have a heart murmur, which is easily heard with

a stethoscope. He was deferred because of a not-easily-found back problem but he makes it sound as if this problem was discovered by a military doctor at an induction physical.

This article shows that he requested a physical and then went to the physical with X-rays and a doctor's letter, which guaranteed him a deferment. Most guys couldn't get that sort of letter from a doctor.

Not only that, but his back problem didn't stop him from playing intramural football at Yale or going out to Colorado after graduation and spending his time skiing or working construction and pouring concrete. Disabled? :shrug:

[Mairead]

119. I think there's even more confusion about what's going on

The earlier article quoted him claiming an 'unfused' vertebra, a 'probably congenital' condition. That's what led me to the idea it was spina bifida occulta.

But the condition talked about here (spondylolisthesis) hasn't anything to do with unfused vertebrae. According to the AAOS ( http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/fact/thr_report.cfm?Thread_ID=155&topcategory=Spine ), if spondylolisthesis is indeed the condition he has, then it's probably something he did to himself in high school (note that they implicate 2 of the sports in which he participated: weightlifting and football).

I bet there were a lot of former football players and weightlifters who went to Vietnam. I bet some of them had undiagnosed spondylolisthesis, too, endured as 'occasional backache' because they'd no access to the kind of medical care needed for the right evaluation.

[MercutioATC]

121. Possible, but that does NOT change the two pertinent facts:

1) The military has decided that spondylolisthesis is a disqualifying condition, and

2) Dean had spondylolisthesis.

He didn't lie. He didn't misrepresent his condition. People with flat feet can ski, but the military wouldn't take them either.

Why should this be something that the voters care about?

[Mairead]

122. "Why should this be something that the voters care about?"

I suppose because people tend to be fair. Most people are poignantly aware that the claim that there's one law for all is a lie. So they tend not to like it when someone seems to use their wealth and privilege to escape difficulties that ordinary people cannot escape. Similarly, they appreciate --even overvalue-- people like Kerry who seem to say 'okay, I could exploit my wealth and privilege, but that wouldn't be fair, so I choose to take the same risks other people are forced to take'.


As to the rest of it, he certainly seems to have had something, and it gave him a legal out that he intentionally exploited. Which, unfortunately, when combined with his willingness to send other people off to war, makes him a chickenhawk.

[DemBones DemBones]

124. Yes, and one hell of a lot of American voters had their lives

affected by the draft during the Viet Nam era so it's an issue the GOP can use against Dean. We think they wouldn't dare since Bush* didn't finish his TANG service but will people ever hear about that? His records have been scrubbed to prevent problems. Can anyone prove that he was AWOL for a year and a half?

So that's a big concern I have about Dean being our nominee. I don't trust the guy myself but if he gets the nomination I want him to win. He hasn't handled this issue well and it could hurt him "bigtime."

[MercutioATC]

125. How is it possible to "exploit" by telling the truth?

Dean had a condition. The military deferred him for that condition. You're going to fault Dean because the military applied its rules unequally at times?

Kerry wasn't medically deferred. Could he have used his wealth to find a way not to serve? Probably. Good for him that he didn't. That still has absolutely nothing to do with Dean recieving a legitimate medical deferrment.

[Mairead]

130. "How is it possible to "exploit" by telling the truth?"

Aren't you being just a little disingenuous? Why does he imply that he had nothing to do with it, that it was all the military? I'd suggest that it's because most people would think less well of him if he said 'Like most guys my age, I wasn't real eager to be drafted and sent to Vietnam, so, since I have a minor back problem from playing high-school sports, I took an xray film and a letter from our family doctor to the draft board to see what they'd say. They looked at it and classified me 4Y, which meant I was safe from being drafted and could stop worrying and get on with my life'.

[burr]

127. Would you go into the military if you had a chronic condition?

Many people have serious medical problems, and still live physically active lives as a result. I had a relative who discovered he could not join the Navy because he had Type 1 Diabetis. He didn't even know he had it at the time!

We all care for him, and his life has changed drastically since then. He has trouble paying his medical bills, and after having some terrible insulan reactions had to quit the track team. This was his best sport, and he as become extremely depressed since then.

Now we both spend time together to waterski, go walking, and play basketball. But he will never be able to do the high endurance activity he once could do, but at least has not become an invalid as some here would suggest he become!

Dean in my opinion did nothing wrong. Going into the military with such a back condition, if allowed would probably be murder. There is a reason we do not put those with medical problems on the front lines, but obviously some in this forum have a different set of values. They say put the weak, the poor, and those with chronic illnesses on the front lines...it doesn't matter because they will die anyway.

It is a sick argument, and it has been proven wrong.

[FubarFly]

128. I am happy Dean avoided Vietnam.

Vietnam sucked.

I don't believe Dean really wanted to go that immoral clusterfuck of a hellhole. Smart man. I don't think he was comfortable with someone going in his place either. So he went to his examination ready to serve, but hopeful that he would get a deferment. Once he did, he made good by finishing school, and becoming a doctor. He ended up serving his country by saving lives. Bravo Dean.
Well done.

Unless you can give me solid evidence that it didn't happen like this, my scenerio is as valid as yours. Vietnam was an awful time. I respect the sacrifice of those who served, and I respect the conscious of those who knew it was wrong and didn't. It was a extremely tough life-altering decision for any young man, and I am appalled by how easily people trivialize it.

[Mairead]

131. um, going with xrays and a doc's letter is not 'ready to serve'

it's 'hoping to be excused'.

[FubarFly]

132. Nope, it's both. n/t.

[burr]

133. Why not just clean out those in our hospitals and operating rooms..

and send them to the front lines?

Serving in the Marine Corp or the Army, especially in the 1960's was not a ski trip. Can anyone spell t-o-r-t-u-r-e, p-a-i-n, or h-e-l-l???

I don't care which idiots have been posting these comments, but it takes a person with nearly "perfect mental and physical health" just to survive through armed combat. Otherwise you eventually lose your sanity, your life, or both.