Question for those who make the "Bushlite" accusation

[BushGone04]

I have an honest, legitimate question for everyone who calls Kerry "Bushlite" for voting for the Iraq war. See, Cleland voted for the war resolution too (Source). So, here's my simple, yes-or-no question: Is Cleland, who many of you seem to revere, Bushlite as well?

[vi5]

1. One, even two votes out of a career of hundreds.....

...does not make someone Bushlite and the people that throw this accusation around are sad, myopic individuals. If you look at voting records, it would even be hard to honestly level that accusation at Leiberman. Rhetoric and on-record public statements is another thing but at the end of the day all any congressman or senator has is their voting record.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

2. On that vote, yes.

I don't think either of them is "Bush-lite" in general. They both have strong liberal records. But on that vote, and a couple of others, yes. Mostly I think it's a campaign ploy to create differentiation between the candidates and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

[blm]

8. So Dean is "Bushlite" on deregulating electricity?

And "Bushlite" for supporting Bush on Yucca Mt.?

When the entire Dem and GOP platform is scrutinized, I'd bet that Dean comes out closer to Bush than Kerry, Edwards, or Gephardt.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. Very possibly. Give me a linked context and I'll tell you my opinion.

However, these hardly rise to the level of war and civil rights issues. I know the Yuuca mountain thing is bullshit but my limited exposure to his electricity de-reg statements may in fact rise to the level of "Bush-lite." Give me some quality links.

[blm]

14. Has Dean asked Moore for a retraction?

Evidently Stephen Moore and Dean kept in touch.


http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/073ylkiz.asp

SEVERAL YEARS AGO an obscure Democratic governor from the politically inconsequential state of Vermont was the guest speaker at a Cato Institute lunch. His name was Howard Dean. He had been awarded one of the highest grades among all Democrats (and a better grade than at least half of the Republicans) in the annual Cato Fiscal Report Card on the Governors. We were curious about his views because we had heard that he harbored political ambitions beyond the governorship.

Dean charmed nearly everyone in the boardroom. He came across as erudite, policy savvy, and, believe it or not, a friend of free markets--at least by the standards of the Tom Daschle-Dick Gephardt axis of the Democratic party. Even when challenged on issues like environmentalism, where he favored a large centralized mass of intrusive regulations, Dean remained affable.

"You folks at Cato," he told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.

He left--and I will never forget the nearly hypnotic reaction. The charismatic doctor had made believers of several hardened cynics. Nearly everyone agreed that we had finally found a Democrat we could work with. Since then, I've watched Dean's career with more than a little interest and we chat from time to time on the phone.

>>>>>>

Dean is nothing if not a survivor--as well as an iconoclast. Even as he pursued wild-eyed social experiments, Dean carefully nurtured a reputation as a "business-friendly" governor. On numerous occasions he pragmatically swept aside onerous environmental regulations and last-use restrictions (this is the greenest state of all) to make room for business expansion and jobs, jobs, jobs. He supported electricity deregulation to take monopolistic pricing power away from big utilities. He even launched one of the nation's most progressive voucher programs for high school students.

>>>>>>

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

16. Thanks for the "quality" source.

This conversation is over.








Edit- Quotes around "quality" Should have added this, too: :argh:

[blm]

18. Stephen Moore is closer to Dean than you are, isn't he?

They've been speaking for 5 years now. Does Dean answer your calls?

Has Dean asked for a retraction? Is he planning on suing The Weekly Standard for libel? Or does Moore have Dean's discussion with the CATO Institute on tape?

[blm]

21. HERE'S a separate confirmation, RIF.

It says he pushed for deregulation of electricity. Evidently the legislature pushed back and Dean dropped it.


http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/43125.html

Dean raises money from energy sources
February 27, 2002
By David Gram
ASSOCIATED PRESS

MONTPELIER — When Gov. Howard Dean wanted to raise money for a possible presidential bid, he followed the example of a former governor of Texas and called on his friends in the energy industry.

>>>>>>>
“Administration actions going back some years betray an inappropriate coziness with the utilities,” said Paul Burns, executive director of the Vermont Public Service Research Group. “I am not prepared to say it’s a result of contributions given. But these contributions present the appearance of impropriety or appearance of influence that it probably would have been better to avoid.”

Dean’s close relationship with utility representatives dates back to the day he became governor in 1991. A lobbyist for Green Mountain Power and a GMP employee were among the first people Dean called in to help his transition.
A list of the Governor’s Council of Economic Advisers includes Green Mountain Power Corp.’s chairman, two company board members and a vice president, all of whom made donations to the Fund For A Healthy America. It also includes two longtime utility lobbyists.

Over the years, the governor has sided with the utilities on many of the most pressing issues, including the push for deregulation of the electric industry, and later backing away from that as a goal. Among other major decisions:

— After years of pushing for the companies to absorb the excess costs of their expensive contract with Hydro-Quebec, Dean’s Department of Public Service agreed to let ratepayers be billed for more than 90 percent of what those excess costs are expected to be in the coming years. The extra costs will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
>>>>>>>  
 

[Larkspur]

17. This Democrat opposes "tax and spend" liberals as I do

"borrow and spend" conservatives.

I believe in balanced budgets and a pragmatic approach to solving problems. I don't believe that government can solve everything. I believe in partnership between government, citizen, business, labor, and activist groups. No one area has all the solutions, but working together we can develop a humane plan to wrestle with problems.

[blm]

20. Can you name the "tax and spend" liberals?

Can Dean?

That's a GOP boogeyman thought up by their wordmeisters like Frank Luntz.

[Punkingal]

23. Dean supported Bush on Yucca Mountain?

I didn't know that, and I live in Vegas.

[justinb3]

24. Yucca Mtn.

Dean has supported storing waste at Yucca Mtn., which, I believe, is Bush's position.

Bush-lite would be if he said he'd support storing all radioactive waste of a certain kind, shape, flavour, (insert categorization here), trying to have it both ways.

I support Dean, but he's wrong on this issue. He's not even "lite" wrong, he's dead wrong.

-justinb

[blm]

25. He's also for DEREGULATING ELECTRICITY....

are his supporters with him on that, too, or not?

[justinb3]

26. electricity dereg.

Not being comfortable with being characterized as his supporters, I'm not sure. If you can give me some context for your question, and explain what you think Dean means by "energy deregulation" (and what you mean by it), I can certainly tell you what I think.

-justinb

[blm]

27. Well, the articles above

both state he is for it. I'll repost them here.

One is from a Vermont paper, the other an article from Stephen Moore in the Weekly Standard who hosted Dean at the CATO Institute a few years back where he boasted of his penchant for deregulation.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/43125.html
Dean raises money from energy sources
February 27, 2002
By David Gram
ASSOCIATED PRESS
MONTPELIER — When Gov. Howard Dean wanted to raise money for a possible presidential bid, he followed the example of a former governor of Texas and called on his friends in the energy industry.
>>>>>>>
“Administration actions going back some years betray an inappropriate coziness with the utilities,” said Paul Burns, executive director of the Vermont Public Service Research Group. “I am not prepared to say it’s a result of contributions given. But these contributions present the appearance of impropriety or appearance of influence that it probably would have been better to avoid.”
Dean’s close relationship with utility representatives dates back to the day he became governor in 1991. A lobbyist for Green Mountain Power and a GMP employee were among the first people Dean called in to help his transition.
A list of the Governor’s Council of Economic Advisers includes Green Mountain Power Corp.’s chairman, two company board members and a vice president, all of whom made donations to the Fund For A Healthy America. It also includes two longtime utility lobbyists.
Over the years, the governor has sided with the utilities on many of the most pressing issues, including the push for deregulation of the electric industry, and later backing away from that as a goal. Among other major decisions:
— After years of pushing for the companies to absorb the excess costs of their expensive contract with Hydro-Quebec, Dean’s Department of Public Service agreed to let ratepayers be billed for more than 90 percent of what those excess costs are expected to be in the coming years. The extra costs will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
>>>>>>>  
Here's the article about his talk with the CATO Institute:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/073ylkiz.asp
SEVERAL YEARS AGO an obscure Democratic governor from the politically inconsequential state of Vermont was the guest speaker at a Cato Institute lunch. His name was Howard Dean. He had been awarded one of the highest grades among all Democrats (and a better grade than at least half of the Republicans) in the annual Cato Fiscal Report Card on the Governors. We were curious about his views because we had heard that he harbored political ambitions beyond the governorship.
Dean charmed nearly everyone in the boardroom. He came across as erudite, policy savvy, and, believe it or not, a friend of free markets--at least by the standards of the Tom Daschle-Dick Gephardt axis of the Democratic party. Even when challenged on issues like environmentalism, where he favored a large centralized mass of intrusive regulations, Dean remained affable.

"You folks at Cato," he told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.
He left--and I will never forget the nearly hypnotic reaction. The charismatic doctor had made believers of several hardened cynics. Nearly everyone agreed that we had finally found a Democrat we could work with. Since then, I've watched Dean's career with more than a little interest and we chat from time to time on the phone.
>>>>>>
Dean is nothing if not a survivor--as well as an iconoclast. Even as he pursued wild-eyed social experiments, Dean carefully nurtured a reputation as a "business-friendly" governor. On numerous occasions he pragmatically swept aside onerous environmental regulations and last-use restrictions (this is the greenest state of all) to make room for business expansion and jobs, jobs, jobs. He supported electricity deregulation to take monopolistic pricing power away from big utilities. He even launched one of the nation's most progressive voucher programs for high school students.
>>>>>>
  
 Alert

[justinb3]

29. energy dereg.

IMO, removing state supported monopolies on energy production, in a reasonable fashion, makes sense to me.

I'm not an ideologue, and one of the things I see in Dean is that he's not one either. He's pissed off everybody at some point in time or another, and he's built bridges between incredibly different groups to get some really good stuff done.

Is he a progressive's progressive? Probably not, especially if your one flavor of single issue (or even 2 or 3 issue) voter. If you're looking for someone that'll raise taxes every time to pay for services, Dean's probably not your guy. If, on the other hand, you're looking for someone that has proven he's capable of striking a balance between social needs and the economic base that's needed to pay for them, he merits consideration.

In the end, we support who we support. I try not to attack other people's candidates (unless they're Bush ;) ), and expect some measure of the same courtesy.

The most important thing in '04 is to win, and to win with someone that's capable of fixing the economy, social programs, and foreign policy. You can't do the second or the third without doing the first. The second and third are tied together in many ways as well, IMO.

-justinb

[Zuni]

3. No way

Kerry is in no way Bush lite. He is a respectable man with a good grasp on the issues.
Kerry would be 10,000 times better as President than Bush.

[Larkspur]

4. If Kerry had a good grasp on the issues, he'd have voted against the 2002

Iraq War and voted for the 1991 Iraq War.

My major problem with Kerry is his inability to make sound judgments.

[Gman]

5. The Deanie Boppers know no bounds

when it comes to slamming someone. All the slamming by Deanie Boppers is hardening my position against Dean. I've got to think at some point that Dean is encouraging it. If so, fuck Dean.

[tsipple]

12. Come on, Gman...

What's stuff like this?

http://www.johnkerry.com/news/releases/pr_2003_0928.html

And what's with all the anti-Dean stuff in the last debate? Kerry was nothing but attack, attack, attack against Dean.

Of course Dean supporters are going to respond when John Kerry and his campaign attack Howard Dean.

[tsipple]

15. And By the Way...

Isn't this what we want in a nominee? Someone who's able to respond to the mighty (and endlessly funded) Karl Rove slime machine? With supporters who are calling opponents to accout for mindless ad hominem attacks?

[kang]

6. Kerry is hardly Bush-lite, unless

you're a Marxist! He's been consistently strong on traditional liberal issues. No, he's no Paul Wellstone, but then again there aren't many state-wide elected leaders who can win being so liberal.

I find it dishonest that Dean has said that Clark "was a Republican 25 days ago." So I guess the fact that he voted for Clinton and Gore I suppose means nothing because he voted for Reagan. Why can't we just take Clark's word that he was an independent and decided that the Democratic party best represented his beliefs?

All this coming after Clark is of course just political tactics (like Dean bashing Kerry), but I suppose I find Dean's stance the least palatable at the moment since Clark hasn't said anything negative against him and Dean's even stated himself in response to attacks against him that it won't help the party. Neither will attacking a newcomer to the party who's clearly got some pull with independents. So I suppose Dean believes in preemptive negative campaigning, just not preemptive war (just a joke people)! I respect Dean's positions and I have no doubt he's passionate about liberal causes, but his campaign tactics are just too negative.

[Larkspur]

7. Clark helped raise funds for Republicans in 2001

He wasn't much of a Democrat than.

[blm]

9. HAHAHAHAHA......

Yet you buy Dean turning into a populist last January. HAHAHAHA.

[Larkspur]

13. Well, you know, Dean's message resonates with the populace more

than Kerry's.

I don't see 4-5 thousand showing up on a lunch hour to hear Kerry speak in downtown Boston.

Unlike Kerry, Dean listened to us angry and frustrated voters and became our voice for change. Kerry dismissed us like we didn't exist. Like Huey Long, Dean knows how to rally the Dem base to action. Kerry hasn't got a clue how to lead us.

[blm]

19. Yeah...so YOU say.

I think he's leading you all with fundamentalist groupthink tactics.

[George_Bonanza]

28. Kerry has always been angry at Bush... YOU'VE been ignoring HIM

Just because senate politics is very shy from public eye and boring. Instead, Dean comes with his media-accessible anti-Bush image and woosh! you're all swept away.

[tsipple]

11. Wasn't It "Republican-Lite"?

I've heard that more often.

Yes, I think Max Cleland ran his re-election campaign as Republican-lite (or Bush-lite). Democrats, especially African Americans, collectively yawned (and didn't vote), and the ever-reliable Republicans did (and voted for chickenhawk Saxby Chambliss). Actually, history is pretty clear on this point, and I thought most people agreed.

What was it Truman said? I'm paraphrasing, but, given the choice between a Republican and a Democrat who acts a like a Republican, voters will choose the real Republican.

[LuminousX]

22. Don't forget context

There was a point in time in this country not so many months ago when everyone was running hard to the right. I seem to recall 2002 when every politician ran on the basis of how he or she has helped Bush push Bush's anti-American agenda. It was a parade of lifelong Democrats singing the praises of Bush and his pogram of right wing maliciousness. Tax cuts, they all screamed in unison, is what Bush wants so tax cuts he'll get.

Of course, Bush pushed them all out of office to make room for his hand selected conservative cronies, but that is just a lesson that Bush-lite still isn't enough for Bush.

So, before the 'Bush-lite' phrase surfaced we had a bunch of people telling us how similar their agenda is to Bush's. Now we have people telling us how Bush has sunk this country in a hell hole and how he or she will help get us out. That is a good and wonderful thing to hear and will win us the election in 2004.

I don't know enough about Cleland's record and what he was saying around the time of the resolution, but if he was pandering to the Bush agenda, then you can bet I will willingly say he was attempting to be Bush-lite.