Does anyone else here feel that Clark may be a stealth candidate?

[demigoddess]

I hear him speak at the DNC dinner that was shown on C-span last night and I was really impressed, but I cannot shake this feeling that he may be planted by the republicans. They have done similar things within the green party in this state and apparently others.

[meegbear]

1. Nope ...

next topic.

[Jim Sagle]

14. Planted by the DLC, not the RNC.

That's a VERY important difference.

He's here to represent the Democratic wing of the corporate party.

[justinb3]

45. Planted *and* fertilized by the DLC

... wait until the Q numbers are out. We'll see where the money's coming from.

[Cappurr]

2. Check out the other 105 threads on this tin-foil hat theory

You'll see you are not alone. Unless, of course, you are just trying to start still another thread and still another flame war. :eyes:

[catforclark2004]

30. and big dog Clinton is a fool!

To the White House, it doesn't really matter whether people believe that an Al Gore or a Wes Clark is a liar. If a question is asked often enough, the truth becomes a secondary matter. That's what the White House is hoping will happen with Clark. That's how the game is played. And the race is on.

[politicaholic]

3. That's the first thing I thought...

I posted that the day he announced his candidacy. I suspect he's PNAC's candidate not the repukes.

[diplomats]

5. Isn't Bush the PNAC's camdidate?

[tsipple]

7. Until They Dump Him...

PNAC just wants to win.

[politicaholic]

11. bingo

[catforclark2004]

26. PNACers are CHICKENHAWKS - Clark took 4 bullets for us!

Remember that all PNACs are Chickenhawks! If the man took 4 bullets for his country...that would be America....why can't we believe that he means us good?

I am ashamed that, with all of this man's accomplishments, the only welcome that he gets comes from the Conspiracy wing of the Democratic party.

As a republican, he could have won just about any political office he would have wanted.....gotten some experience and ran as a Repug candidate for President in 2008 and won!

To be so partisan and hold the view that it's impossible to be non partisan...is to have the same view that President Toy Flight Suit Monkey Chimp has...either you are for us, or you agin us! Is that Black or white enougth for you?:mad:

[justinb3]

51. Clark taking bullets

Look, nobody is saying that Clark's not a good guy, or that he's not a patriot, or anything like that.

What people are saying is that you don't go from voting for Nixon, Reagan, and Bush I, to fundraising for the GOP, to talking about Feith, Perle, and Wolfowitz as good friends, to all the sudden being a Democrat and running for President.

It makes people uneasy, and it should. It doesn't make much sense. Governor of Arkansas? Senate? Congress? Hell yes, good place to start if you're already a General that's telegenic as hell. President? No way. I don't care if he's got the best team in the world (oddly, they're pretty good, but the Stephens crowd makes me nervous too, with good reason), you can't go from non-partisan to declared Dem to running for President, with his background, in a month. It just doesn't pass the smell test.

-justinb

[tsipple]

4. Um, No

Nor is Clark trying to pave the way for Hillary in 2004 or 2008, except perhaps as VP.

I don't have any evidence to believe he's a Republican plant. (He did help the Arkansas GOP raise money in 2001, but that's something else.) So, no, he's one of the 10 candidates, and I'll vote for him against Bush if he wins the nomination. He's about my last choice in the primary.

[XanaDUer]

6. No.

eom.

[bluefire2000]

8. Not at all

There is ample documented evidence, including his lates book, which refutes that notion. If anything, this idea sounds like an attempt by Freepers to discredit Clark.

[Kahuna]

9. No. Your tinfoil hat in on too tight.

:7 :hi:

[hedda_foil]

10. Here is the one of the key discussion threads on this subject

There are many but this seems to have at least most of the information under discussion. It was posted by Tinoire who has done a great deal of very credible research on this and other subjects.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=423043#424059

[MidwestTransplant]

12. My goodness, you are right! How do I change my avatar!

n/t

[tsipple]

13. (Chuckle.)

:-)

[catforclark2004]

28. CLARK HAS BEEN PROVEN TOO INTELLIGENT TO BE PUG!

Republicans are not smart.....they are not Rhode Scholars...they do not speak fluent languages (except for Condi...but she's really dumb at her actual job)...they are not war heroes.....(Wes took 4 bullets...should he have taken more, or better yet gone AWOL?).....The majority of Americans voted for Nixon, reagan and Bush I...that's how they won!

Remember that the military is there to attempts to convert you into a republican......Military folks get their news adulterated/censored......He's so smart he saw the light even with the censored BS Military News....and voted for Clinton, Clinton & Gore....Looks like he just knows how to pick a winner...even Gore really won.....So when he votes for himself, We know who the new President will be.

[MuseRider]

15. It seems it will

be a little while before we will be able to ask this question without knee jerk slams. I am just taking my time and wading through the issues and trying to find some without spin so I can decide for myself. I would feel much more comfortable if he waited a few years and proved himself a democrat. However, it may be has made a BIG commitment but until the spin settles down we won't know. I think you asked a fair question and deserve not to be bashed or discounted because of it. If we can't ask these questions we are in real trouble.

[demigoddess]

16. exactly

I was born military and raised millitary and military wife,so I've seen officers up close. Most are politicians and some are very much weathervanes who blow which ever way the guys above want. I'd like to think Clark would go against his training but doubt whether he can be trusted with the presidency just months after being a republican.

[bicentennial_baby]

18. Hello?

Just because Dean says Clark was a Republican does'nt make it so. Clark has stated that while he voted for Nixon & Reagan, he voted for Clinton both times and for Gore in 2000. In 2002, he helped on the campaign trail for various Democrats, including Max Cleland. In Arkansas, party registration is optional, as is shown on the Arkansas Voter Reg. form, which can be accessed on the Arkansas state elcetions website.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

20. Exactly

so it appears that he hasn't been tied to either party and supports either when convenient (or when compatible). I believe that's what demigoddess meant when she said weathervane. Personally, I don't think of that as an insult. It could be that he holds to his own convictions, some of which are Democratic and some of which are Republican.

I like much of what I've heard Clark say, but I am not sure I know what he actually feels or intends. So, like MuseRider I am wary of supporting him because of that. I would like to see him hold some other office before president. Of course, I'd stand by him if he wins the nomination.

Way back about 6 months ago, I first heard about some military guy with a nebulous political affiliation that was thinking about running for president as a Democrat. My very first thought was how do we know he's not a Republican plant? That wasn't very long after the previous election in which it was fairly clear that the Republicans had tried that tactic in a few elections. I blame the Republicans for ruining the political climate to such an extent that I am concerned about these issues.

I think it is a legitimate question and I have not yet seen convincing evidence yet. I have seen lots of claims that it has already been debunked (with no links to the debunking of course) and a little inconclusive real discussion of the matter.

[justinb3]

43. Hello to you, too

I'm not saying it because Dean says it, I'm saying it because last March Clark said that Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle and Feith were all good buddies (Salon interview).

I don't want someone in the WH that would trust that gang with much of anything, let alone their friendship.

The fact that someone voted for Nixon, Reagan, and Bush, and now says they believe in equal rights, the environment, and sound economic policy is a completely different matter, and I believe, says more about credibility than I ever could.

-justinb

[MuseRider]

22. I just want to see him

do some things within the party for a while. I don't dislike him and I don't really distrust him but I absolutely do not feel rock solid secure with him either. A little too early for me but if he is our guy I will vote for him.

[AP]

17. He's planted by the democrats. I think he's in it to save CA, but not to..

...win the nom.

[molly]

19. Planted by the Republicans? Do a logic check

:boring:

[Meshuga]

21. Michael Moore Likes Clark...

"And Now a Chance to Bid Farewell to Mr. Bush" (from Michael Moore)


...In my open letter to General Clark, while strongly encouraging him to run, I told him that I was not yet endorsing him -- I have no plans to endorse anyone at this point -- yet I thought his voice should be heard in this campaign. Why? Because I heard him say things that I think the American public needs to hear....

...I don't know whether I am violating any confidence here, but I think all of you have a right to know these things -- and I left there that night convinced that this pro-choice, pro-environment, pro-affirmative action retired general should be in the debates so that the American people can hear what I heard. The public needs to see and hear what he's all about so we can make up our own minds about him. Now, thanks to all the encouragement you gave him to run, we will have a chance to do just that.



http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php

[Nicholas_J]

36. And Charles Rangel has Endorsed him

Dean only WISHES he had an endorsement like that.

[justinb3]

47. Rangel's endorsement isn't going over so well ...

http://www.blackcommentator.com/57/57_cover_clark.html

[Renew Deal]

52. That's a misrepresentation.

You picked one site adn are sayign that it's not going over well. I would venture to say that Clark has done more for minorities than that site ever has. Here is a site it is going over well with http://www.aadl.us/

Also ask Sharpton what he thinks about Clark.

[justinb3]

54. Talk about a misrepresentation ...

... http://www.aadl.us is hardly an objective site, being registered and run by someone that was involved with the "Draft Clark" movement from the very beginning. She originally ran "Blacks 4 Clark", by the way - it wasn't changed to "African Americans for Democratic Leadership" until after the announcement.

I'm curious, though. What's Clark done for minorities? I've heard some pretty negative stories about how he treated junior officers that were minorities.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it's almost as objective as asking Rove what he thinks about Cheney ;)

-justinb

[Renew Deal]

55. He wrote...

I am giving you rpoof of what Clark has done for minorities. No wback up your self serving allegation that you have heard stories.."

Where is the proof? Because you sound like a liar to me, and your lies are quite freeper-like.

Here is the brief he filed with the supreme court.

http://www.umich.edu/~urel/admissions/legal/gru_amicus-ussc/um/MilitaryL-both.pdf

Something pre-written but accurate:

Clark was recently one of several former military men to file a pro-affirmative action "friend of the court" brief on behalf of the University of Michigan in their battle against the Bush Administration efforts to dismantle Michigan's admissions policy. Clark said he was "surprised and dismayed" by the president's decision.

Here are three quotes from Clark:

“I went to local schools except for a year at a Tennessee military school when the high schools closed in Little Rock in the late 1950s because of disputes over racial integration…I saw first hand the racial prejudice, the civil disobedience, the intolerance… I've often gone back to that experience. It's something I've related to.”

“I’m in favor of the principle of affirmative action. Whether is the right plan or not, and whether that should be 10 points, not 20 points, whether it should be, let’s say, an income level cutoff there at which you don’t get the points if you’re above a certain income, you can tool with the plan. But … you can’t have a society in which we’re not acknowledging that there is a problem in this society with racial discrimination. There is, there has been and the reason so many of us filed is we saw the benefits of affirmative action in the United States armed forces. It was essential in restoring the integrity and the effectiveness of the armed forces.”

“I'm a believer in full equal opportunity. … I don't believe in glass ceilings for women. … We need that talent and that energy and that creativity in America in whatever way that women want to live their lives. You know, I'm for it. If they are stay-at-home mothers, I think that's wonderful. If they're career professionals, that's great.”

[justinb3]

57. He wrote ...

... actually, he didn't write it. He didn't file it, either, since he's not a lawyer. He signed it. I'll give him that - it's a great AC brief, and it was the right thing to do. It's hardly a lot of effort, and it didn't exactly help out a lot of minorities, but it was a lot more than a lot of other people did.

It was the right thing to do, absolutely, and I'm glad to see his name on the list. It makes me feel a little less squeamish about him.

As for my "proof", I didn't say I had any, and I wasn't slamming him, it's just stuff I heard from folks in the service. Not something I'd put a huge amount of credence in, but enough to make you wonder.

I'll ignore the freeper insult - that's just not me ;)

-justinb

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

49. I don't think this thread is about Dean. nt

[justinb3]

46. Re: Moore's missive about Clark

So, why don't you print the rest of the letter? You know, the parts where he has both good and bad things to say about *all* the candidates?

[Toucano]

23. Do you have any links?

"They have done similar things within the green party in this state and apparently others."

I am interested if you do.

Thanks

[molly]

24. I think Dean is planted by the pugs - an NRA stealth

[Memekiller]

25. Too clever by half...

Look, the Republican Party has gotten great rhetorical value out of "converts" such as Ronald Reagan. Why are we so suspicious when someone very reasonably recognizes the failure of this President? (Not to mention, a stealth Clark candidacy makes no sense, since his staff is made up of Democratic operatives, and it's not in the GOP's interests to pump up the Democratic Party's patriotism credentials while making their love toy, W, look like a wuss in comparison.)

I know many, many lifelong Repbulicans who are coming into the Democratic fold because of this Bush administration, many of them with military records. Som of them have even worked at the Pentagon. They ought to be welcomed with open arms.

[MuseRider]

29. That is exactly my point

from one of the above posts. I DO welcome him, I actually like a lot about him BUT I tend to be just a little wobbly when someone is new AND running for President. That is all it is for me, it is just such a big, important office and I have a candidate that I feel very comfortable with. Nothing against Clark but I think a lot of us feel this way.

[Kool Kitty]

35. Thanks for saying this.

I've been thinking it. Why is it such a problem to welcome someone who wants to leave the republican party to become a democrat? Isn't this what we want? And welcome. :hi:

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

48. There is a huge difference between welcoming

them into the party and electing them to the highest office in the nation to represent the party.

[Kool Kitty]

58. Did I mention anything about electing

him President in my post?

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

60. I interpreted your comments about people

not welcoming him into the party as being based on the subject of this thread, which is about electing him President. If I was mistaken, then I apologize, my comment does not apply to you. Though I do think it is important that people realize the distinction.

[mndemocrat_29]

27. He is not a plant

He's also supported by some of the most liberal members of the Democratic party (Sen. Clinton, Rep. McCollum). Just because he supported Nixon in 1972 doesn't mean that he didn't change his mind. He voted for Clinton twice and for Gore in 2000.

[justinb3]

44. animal, vegetable, or mineral, it doesn't matter ...

... anybody that reminisces about working with Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle and Feith is not someone the Democratic party should support in a bid for the WH.

-justinb

[coralrf]

31. Demi...you DO NOT think that...

you want us to think it. The concept is patently dumb and meant only for the patently dumb. Fish all you like my dear friend there are only a few that will bite on your lame bait.

When will this bullshit stop?

[demigoddess]

34. I was not fishing.

I am a DEAN supporter and I have an honest pull between the two of them but my gut makes me uncomfortable about Clark even though I would LOVE it if he were on the ticket. DEAN/CLARK OR CLARK/DEAN but I grew up in military and we are not cut off from info like some have mentioned. I supported Kennedy in 1960 in a state that was full republican, and I supported Johnson even though I had huge doubts about the war at the time. My husband could have been sent and most of our friends were being sent. We have an old story about Johnson. A wife wrote Johnson a letter about the discrimination that military families get in housing. ( this is not allowed) Her husband was called into the colonel's office(same colonel my dad worked for ) and the colonel said"Officially you are being chewed out, but give my thanks to your wife.)
I will support ANYBODY BUT BUSH but I want to feel comfortable about my vote because we are in deep doo economically speaking and I think it is too important to vote with my eyes closed.

[catforclark2004]

32. That's what the White House hopes you think of Clark

To the White House, it doesn't really matter whether people believe that an Al Gore or a Wes Clark is a liar. If a question is asked often enough, the truth becomes a secondary matter. That's what the White House is hoping will happen with Clark. That's how the game is played. And the race is on.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

33. Somebody is behind him, and that somebody is up to no good

I don't know if he is planted by Rove with a promise to throw the election if nomination, the Clintons with a similar agreement, or by leaders of the Democratic Establishment desperate to crush Dean, but I have a bad feeling that somebody is behind Clark, and whoever it is does not have the best interests of the Democratic Party at heart.

Make this a September to Remember!

[Nicholas_J]

37. The problem is

That from Dean's record as governor, it is Dean who likly does not have the interests of the Democratic party. Dean veto'd more Democratic Party sponsored legislation at the state level than even Bush has at the federal level. Dean holds the record in Vermont for Vetoing, threatening to veto, or opposing Democratic Party legislation and party policy of any Governor of Vermont, either Democratic OR republican.


Governor Howard Dean, who has used the veto to a greater extent than any previous governor, primarily cited policy as the basis for his actions. His 1993 veto of a paving bill cited his policy of fiscal restraint, while his 1994 veto of municipal enforcement of motor vehicles laws was on the grounds that the bill created "a public policy dilemma" he could not support.

http://vermont-archives.org/governance/Vetoes/vetoes.html

Moist of the bills that Dean veto'd or threatened to veto were massively popular Democratic pieces of legislation. In the end, he was even vetoing legisltion that had massive public support like the legaluzation of medical marijuana, that has paased both the Democratic dominated Senate, but even more startling, the Republican dominated house.


Poll Shows Vermonters Support Medical Marijuana
65% Say Gov. Dean Should Sign Medical Marijuana Legislation
MONTPELIER, VERMONT -- An overwhelming majority of Vermonters support legislation to protect patients who use medical marijuana, according to a statewide poll conducted by the Lucas Organization on February 9-10.

http://www.mpp.org/releases/nr021402.html


It seems that Vetoing Democratic and Progressive legislation should be a mare valid means of determining which candidate should wear the scarlet "R" than the things Clark is accused of.

[robbedvoter]

42. Yeap. It's me and my buddies - millions of them - conspiring

We are up to taking the White House - and this must be bad because you have a different candidate...Makes perfect sense.
(or, lots of people like me looked and listened to ALL candidates and finally found the one who inspires them - how about that explanation? Not as dramatic, but...)

[Nicholas_J]

50. Actually

There are more than enough democrats who will not vite Dean if he is the nominees. Dean has the highest rate of NO VOTE in all polls that show him in the lead, than in poolls that show other candidates in the lead,

And polls are beginning to show Denas lead slipping RAPIDLY, since the Clark entrance, and especially since his record of giving supprt to republicans against Social Security and Medicare in 1995.

[Speck Tater]

38. I've said it before and...

... I'll say it again. He may be a great guy, and a great Democrat, but you don't make someone who's been a Catholic for a month the Pope, even if he's been leaning toward Catholic all his life.

He needs to earn the right to represent the whole party by showing some Democrat-ness in his actions, not just in his words.

Of the 5 companies for which he is on the board of directors, how many of them are unionized? How many of their jobs have been outsourced to China and Mexico? What kind of health insurance do the janitors in those 5 companies have?

Reasonable questions, I think. And good opportunities for him to show some actions in keeping with Democratic philosophy. Has he shown that in his capacity on any of those 5 boards? I don't honestly know. But shouldn't we be looking into it.

If he has the bona fides I'll support him if he is selected to be the candidate. But if he doesn't have a hostory of backing up his talk with actions consistent with the principles of the Democratic party then I'll pass.

[whirlygigspin]

39. hmmm

"I would have been a Republican if Karl Rove had returned my phone calls."

[PATRICK]

40. contradiction

Any officer this good would be too much to waste as a mole. The dreck in the GOP party is so bad he would have been perfect as W's running mate should Dick choke on a pretzel. The mind gags on the implications. A General. A destructive spiteful or sold out traitor.... It's easier to believe Liberman is not Jewish but an pureblooded Austrian plant who will team up with Arnold in 2008.

[robbedvoter]

41. Too good to be true! We dems are weak and flabby - don't deserve

a general. Must be something wrong there - we usually get the Allan Colmes types - someone here is watching too much Fux!

[stickdog]

53. I think Clark may be a disruptor.

Not that I advocate tombstoning him or anything.

[zonmoy]

56. perhaps

clark is the designated democratic puppet of the evil cabal that actually runs this country.

[catforclark2004]

59. Is possibly Dean the Republican Plant???

http://www4.fosters.com/News2003/September2003/September_26/News/reg_pol_0926b.asp

I guess it all goes round and round

[seventhson]

61. No Doubt About It Whatsoever. He was a Republican for God's sake

and he worked for Rummy/Cheney et al in the Ford White House

[AnnitaR]

62. why do I support Clark?

Stealth, stalking horse, plant? Yea, sure whatever. This is getting so old here.

You wanna know one of the reasons why I support Clark (Dean before Clark got in)? The rest of the guys running sat quitely by for months and months because they were too scared of losing seats in the Senate/House in the mid-terms. I don't remember any of them screaming back then about what a "miserable failure" Bush is. Nope they were too scared. In my opinion not one of them had the balls to say then what they are saying now and that pissed me off. There silence was no different than the "praise" Wes Clark gave the Bush Adm. back in 2001. Difference is they were our elected Democratic leaders. It was their job to speak out against Bush and all he stands for and in my opinion they did not.

I actually like a lot of what Sen. Edwards has to say but I just can't seem to find the will to support any of the guys from the House or Senate. They let me down and I can't forget that yet. Maybe that isn't fair or whatever but it's how I feel.

Okay going back into lurker mode now. Still a little intimidated about posting!

[RandomUser]

63. If you like the DNC dinner

you'll love the NH townhall meeting. Most people agree that this is his best media appearance thus far.

http://video.c-span.org:8080/ramgen/idrive/project/c04/c04092603_clark.rm

Not just short speeches and soundbytes like at the debates and the dinner, but rather an in depth presentation and explanation of his ideas and his motives for running. Everything from unscripted questions from the audience to a crying sexually abused woman. The real Wesley Clark. This is why we support him. And this was why many who saw it last Friday say they'd changed their mind about him and knew all the character assassination crap was BS smearing. This is Wesley Clark at his most honest, thoughtful, caring, and open. The video is now online, and now you can see why everyone was jumping up and down last friday night.

[DemCam]

64. How dead can a horse be

before we stop beating the poor old thing?

[Speck Tater]

65. The truth will set you free

Watch for it in the supermarket tabloids.

[DemCam]

68. Don't watch

what they look like.

To paraphrase Ari...watch what they do...Watch
what they say.

Or looks can be deceiving.

Or maybe one doctored pic is worth a thousand words.

[ErasureAcer]

66. I agree 100%

I don't trust people just because they have a D next to their name. Trust takes many many years in the world of politics to establish. What has Wesley Clark done for me or people like me around the country? Absolutely nothin'.

Wes can take a hike. People criticize Al Sharpton for not holding public office and running for POTUS...well I think that applies to Wes Clark as well.

He can't be trusted.

[javadu]

67. Try Shaking a Little Harder

The feeling will go away. If it doesn't, you may have to wait for the general election and decide whether you would like to have Clark or Bush as prez.