Clark supporters, did you ever notice Dean.....

[Bread and Circus]

talks a lot about his campaign about bringing "power" to the people but he never talks about things like campaign finance reform?

As a matter of fact, I just watched his Boston speech where he angrily railed on about Bush's atrocities for a half hour. In that space he threw a lot of raw meat to his angry supporters but not much else. First, I thought, "Hell, I could do that" then it sunk in that there really was no vision or proposals of the future. It was just, elect me and the "bad man will go away and everything will be better". He didn't really say how it would get better, he just kind of implied that if you remove Bush everything would be ok. To be honest, removing Bush would make a lot of things better automatically.

But what struck me is that Dean is running a "campaign" who's core message is about the "campaign" and how it is "taking back the power". The reason this strikes me is that Dean doesn't really even talk about how to fix campaigns and the corrupt politics we have. So, I went to Dean's website to find out if he had anything to say about campaign finance, campaign finance reform, and how to institutionaly insure that people really do have the power and will be able to keep it for generations to come. I also thought I could find a piece on how to restructure media to make sure all viewpoints are heard and how to disempower the monied interests from overly controlling it. Again, nothing.

"Take back this country" and "power to the people" seem to be Dean's mantras. However, there is nothing to substantiate it in his speeches or website. It seems like all rhetoric and no action.

I have read Animal Farm and I am sure you all have as well. Dean's
message strikes me as "two legs bad, four legs good" and that's about it. Once he has the power, there is no guarantee or vision of a better way of governance.

I understand, as a Clark supporter, it is hard to be respected when my guy doesn't even have an "issues" section on his website. That I have to concede. However, Clark has only just begun and I am sure in 3 months he will have richly detailed plans for all to see. Dean, has been at this for over a year, and he has nothing. Clark has a lot of work to do, and I don't expect anyone to embrace him here until he gets his plans laid out. However, Dean has made "empowerment" a cornerstone of his campaign but if you read between the lines, there is nothing to say that he will ensure empowerment for anyone but himself. His populist campaign is really Trippi's bit anyway, from what I have read. Trippi worked for Gep in '88 and Jerry Brown in '92. I saw Jerry Brown speak on my campus and his message was about the same as I see with Dean. I distinctly remember Brown talking
about the "political rot, corruption, and greed" in Washington. Sound familiar, it should -- cause it's Trippi's trademark to run these kinds of campaigns. I have read Gep's '88 run had similar tones.

---

Disclaimer:

I am a Clark supporter.
In the general election, I would happily vote for Kerry, Graham, Edwards, Gep, or Kucinich. Emotionally, I like Braun and Sharpton and hope the best for them in the future.
I would hold my nose to vote for Dean. Same for Lieberman, but for different reasons.

I will stop being negative about Dean when he sets a higher standard of statemanship and Presidential conduct.

[Closer]

1. Where's

Clark on this last day of fundraising for the quarter?

Out with the people?

No, wait, he's in Washington, in a closed door meeting with insiders.


Nice!!!

Clark: Truly a candidate for the people! </sarcasm>

[cprise]

48. Seems Clark's campaign is attracting Reaganites to DU

This post is highly cynical Commie-baiting.

[Cha]

2. sez you...you've bashed Dean from get go ..."I'm holding my

nose" typing this.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bread and Circus]

14. I didn't bash Dean from the get go....

I burst onto the scene with an arrogant proclamation
that Dean couldn't win the general election -- that's
not a bash.

Then I tried to support a long period of not saying
bad things about any candidate except in the most egregious
circumstances.

I went back to being "attack dog" because Dean seemed to do
the same thing.

It is correct, on DU I have never raved about Dean. Frankly,
people have been at Clark's neck since I first mentioned him
back in June. I distinctly rembember "plop plop plop" that
someone wrote, coming out of a donkey's ass, all over my
comments. I think you were there liberal nurse, don't you remember?

So, I am not going to mislead here. I have been confrontational
from the get-go. But over time, I have mellowed except to stick
to a "protect Clark" mode. Dean drew blood. So I went back on
the offensive.

Thanks for your feedback though. I can understand your defense of
Dean.

[Demobrat]

3. 181,345 Donations.

$14,314,885 donated. That IS campaign finance reform.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

4. That's exactly it (nt)

[poskonig]

5. Amen!

eom

[Bread and Circus]

16. No it's not...

Clark has 21,000 donations and 30,000 meetups
only campaigning for 13 days.

Bush sneezes in Chicago and raises 3.5 million.

---

What you propose is not "campaign finance reform".
It may be nice that we can raise money on the net but
it doesn't protect you from anything.

Bush will clear over 200 million both on the net and
off. You think we are going to be able to do that?

Really think about this. I want Clark to say something about
campaign finance reform. So far he hasn't. That is a failure
on his part. But the same goes for Dean.

[Ediacara]

30. he's been officially campaigning for 13 days

but his stealth draft campaign has been active for 6+ months. He already had thousands of meetup members before the official announcement 2 weeks ago, so don't try to imply he is some grassroots groundswell, because he clearly isn't.

[Bread and Circus]

31. Oh, that's classic....

that's just classic. And more than that, it misses
the point. I can't argue with logic like that.
I am dumbfounded.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cprise]

53. I think "familydoctor" is saying we need a corporate/military insider

Clark, a Total Information Awareness corporate guy, to "fight" the other corporate person, Bush. Gee, that would be a big win for democracy.

You'd think with the mega-gobs of corporate money flowing through candidates to the media during these campaigns, that they'd want to buy-out the media so they can hold onto their money while they're putting on their big "demoracy" show.

Oh wait, they did.

[caledesi]

28. Thank you DB....that is exactly what it is...average of what, $86?

[justinb3]

6. campaign finance reform

Did Clark come out for publicly financed campaigns?
Did Clark come out for IRV?

Dean's done both. Granted, you can't do #1 unilaterally, since you'd get clobbered. That's obvious, so don't go trolling in those waters ;)

Given those two issues alone, Dean's the stronger candidate.

It'll be *really* interesting to find out the demographics of Clark's donors. I'd be willing to bet Dean's average contribution $$ that Clark's average is > Deans, and that the names on Clark's list are old-time political insiders.

http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/donordems.asp

Odd that so many Clark people have a visceral dislike for Dean, but most of them seem to feel okay about voting for Graham, who authored most of the Patriot act. Why is that?

-justinb

[Lefty48197]

7. Don't generalize about Clark supporters

please.

[justinb3]

8. sorry about that (the generalization)

I didn't mean to ;( I said that "odd that so many Clark people have a visceral dislike for Dean, but most of them seem to feel okay ..."

I didn't mean to paint them (Clark supporters) with a broad brush. I've just had so many Clark people jump down my throat with an apparent "anybody but Dean" attitude I'm starting to get defensive ;)

BTW, only now, as I post this, does the subject line about generalizing about Clark supporters make me grin ;)

-justinb

[Bread and Circus]

17. I thought Dean...

is going to opt out of federal matching dollars?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

18. Dean actually tried to permanently gut Vermont's Campaign Finance Fund

Not a one-time shuffling of money to meet a budget crunch -- permanent.

Governor Dean's Plan to Remove Funding

Early on in the 2002 legislative session, Democratic Governor Howard Dean targeted the public financing provision of the law for elimination. VPIRG led the effort to preserve funding for public financing of qualifying candidates. The Governor claimed that the law was not working and therefore should not be funded until a final court decision has been reached. Working with Republicans, Progressives and Democrats, VPIRG was able to keep public financing alive (although hundreds of thousands of dollars were taken for other unrelated uses). on this issue.
http://www.vpirg.org/campaigns/financeReform/cfr_page111.html

Is this what you mean by Dean coming out in favor of public financing?

[justinb3]

21. More FUD

It's worth noting that the VT supreme court had ruled that the money could not be spent in the election, so Dean did what I thought was a reasonable thing, and used it elsewhere in the budget, where it could be used.

[cprise]

49. Welcome to DU, justin!

Thanks for the rebuttal.

Putting things in context isn't working terribly well for Clark's campaign.

[sfecap]

9. "Clark's just begun"....LOL

(Another Clarkette bashing Dean, who wudda thought?)

Let's see...Clark has been deciding whether to run (and be a Democrat) for a year now...and he just didn't have the time to come up with any policy papers/statements? Riiiight.

Maybe he was too busy hanging out with his neocon buds discussing inventive ways to wage war to get to that stuff...

But hey, when you're the DLC's annointed one, who needs policies?

[Upfront]

59. Clark Worrys Me

Anyone that would say Bush and his gang of thugs are a wonderful thing, and I am glad they are in office, even though he had to know they were unelected and selected, should not be running for President as a Democrat. A man of Clarks experince and brains thinking that Bush in office will be good for the country makes me wonder. If he said that to please a bunch of rethugs at there fund raiser, that gives me pause. He has had a great change of heart, but won't regester as a Democrat, why? The DLC is clearly afraid of Dean, yet they love Clark, why? I hope it will not come down to Clark or Bush, because I would have to vote against my instincts, because unlike Clark, I don't ever vote for a republican, never!

[clar]

10. I know you're disinclined

to believe anything positive about Dean, but really he's quite a solid guy. Sure some of his supporters are over the top, and tend to attribute superhero powers to him, but as someone who's lived in Vermont for most of my life, I can tell you that the anti-Dean stuff is even more over the top. There's a reason that most liberals in Vermont are supporting Dean, and it's not because he's a poseur. He's fairly good on most issues. He does listen to folks, and is interested in maintaining a dialogue. Does he have flaws? Absolutely. But your depiction of him is inaccurate. I know his remarks about Clark have pissed off a lot of Clark supporters. I can understand that. I wish he hadn't done it, but that's Howard. He's a scrapper when it comes to campaigning. If he does get the nomination, that will stand him in good stead.

[Bread and Circus]

13. Clar, I respect your line of reasoning...

and I bet Dean is a good guy. I guess you are
right, I am pissed off at the stunt he pulled
Sunday and monday.

I hope if he wins the election he will seriously consider
campaign finance reform. I hope Clark does too.

You are a bigger man than I right now because you joined
my very anti-Dean thread and said some respectable things.

I hope people here will see Clark is a good guy too and that
through his entire career he stood up for the right things.
I even think he thought he was helping the country by trying
to lend his help on foreign policy to the opposition. It may
sound dumb from a partisan perspective but I really think
Clark was just not partisan and that is why I feel Dean
was being opportunistic and unfair by framing him as a
"Republican up until 25 days ago". Did Dean forget that
Clark voted for Clinton twice and Gore in the last election?

You are a gem and your kind words have soothed my anger for a bit.
When Clark comes out with more specifics on policy I hope open
minded folks like you give him another look. Not necessarily to
change your vote but to maybe realize we Clark supporters
aren't as crazy as we seem sometimes.

[clar]

40. I already like Clark

If he gets the nomination I'm with him all the way. Fact is, I don't have much bad to say about any of the candidates. Ther're our candidates, and I'll be damned if I'm going to join the feeding frenzy. (I'm not knocking you for being angered) I know that there's only one candidate that deserves to be the focus of my disgust- the shrub. Anyway, I'm glad you found some comfort in what I wrote.

[Rowdyboy]

11. I'm one of those screwed up jerks that like...

both Clark and Dean (and even Graham). Boy do I feel stupid. I mean, if I support Clark or Dean, doesn't that mean I MUST hate the other and everyone else in the race?

[Romberry]

74. Oddly enough...

...I'm another one that likes both Dean and Clark but a number of Clarkies on DU are not earning their guy any points. I'll gladly support the Democratic nominee but the way Clarkies can earn support is to talk up the positives of the candidate their candidate and leave the Dean bashing at home. Neither man is perfect and out of context bashing doesn't fly.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

15. Campaign Finance is one of Dean's weakest issues.

Dean made headlines in March for vowing to attack any candidate that didn't commit to public financing like he was.
http://timesargus.nybor.com/Local/Story/61946.html
Then he made headlines in August for backing off his pledge:
http://www.beaufortgazette.com/24hour/politics/story/969954p-6802617c.html

Ok, I didn't think it was a big deal, Dean just miscalculated by claiming the moral high ground in the first place. But then I found out it wasn't the first time he backtracked on such a pledge, he'd done so in an earlier governor's race. http://www.rutlandherald.com/News/Story/70402.html

And going even farther, he tried to permanently remove funding for Vermont's public financing system altogether.
http://www.vpirg.org/campaigns/financeReform/cfr_page111.html

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cha]

24. You make Good Points and Welcome to DU!

[molly]

19. Yep - me too

"I will stop being negative about Dean when he sets a higher standard of statemanship and Presidential conduct."

When he begins to tell the TRUTH about his past - when he un-seals his records - he just is not trustworthy.

[dsc]

22. You have got to be kidding

you support a candidate who no one knows what he stands for at all due to his not having said word one on the subject. And you have the nerve to say Dean stands for nothing. BTW here is what he stands for and I know this from listening to the very same stump speech you claim has nothing in it.

He will repeal the entire Bush tax cut.

He will repeal most of the provisions of the Patriot Act.

He will balance the budget (by repealing the tax cut and controlling spending).

He will require states to recognize gay and lesbian couples as equals to their heterosexual counterparts.

He will attempt to get foreign troops into Iraq (by ceding some control of the rebuilding effort and some areas of Iraq) so we can send our troops home.

Those are just some things of the top of my head that I am certain I heard in either campaign speeches or in appearences on Larry King or the like.

[molly]

23. You support a candidate that changes his stance daily

so - what's the problem? Clark is not an offensive and angry candidate like your guy - he has a strond background on many issues - unlike your guy. Exactly, what is it that your guy has to offer us? We are waiting and growing impatient - he can rally the troops - but for what?

[Cha]

25. Dean doesn't "change his stance daily"....he evolves on the

issues. If Dean doesn't think something is right he doesn't stick with it so he can't be accused of flip flopping.

And kerry voting for the Iraqi War Resolution and Still sticking with it like it was the best thing in the World to do?!




edit~spelling

[pruner]

27. here's the reason why

"I'm a doctor. I believe if you have a theory and a fact comes along that disproves the theory, you throw out the theory. Republicans believe if a fact comes along that disproves your theory, you throw out the fact."

- Howard Dean, responding to "flip flopping" charge (9/28)

[Bread and Circus]

34. Hey, I am a doctor as well....

and when I heard Clark voted for Clinton
twice as well as Gore, it seemed to me Clark
wasn't much of a Republican. Therefore, I took
Clark at his word that he was non-partisan before declaring
as a Democrat.

Apparently, Dean was not aware of those facts.
Oh yeah, and Clark endorsing Cleland and other Democrats,
that must be something else Dean was not aware of.
But he is obviously aware of the videotape pleasantly
provided by Drudge.

[peaceandjustice]

42. a balanced budget, repealing tax cuts for the wealthy and lower crime rate

Dean was successful in keeping Vermont's budget balanced for 11 years, even when it meant cutting programs people who support him now believe in. He's shown he's willing to make tough calls.Unlike Kerry, whose tax plan would preserve the Bush tax cut for households making as much as 200,000 a year from day one of congressional debate, Dean's calling for a repeal of the whole cut. During his tenure as governor, Vermont saw the lowest homicide rate in the nation, and saw child abuse decline by over 30%.
He also signed the first civil unions bill. Some people criticize him as too cautious on the policy but I think it would've been unwise and ultimately self-defeating to enrage anti-gay sentiment, which honestly seems better organized than support for human rights. And he has unparalled family planning and reproductive rights credentials.

[Andromeda]

60. It's really hard to be polite

when somebody comes out with exceptionally stupid comments. So I won't be.:spank:

[blm]

26. Well, Dean's for DEREGULATING ELECTRICITY.

Is that how he intends to get POWER to the people? Are his followers supporting that, too?

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/43125.html

Dean raises money from energy sources
February 27, 2002
By David Gram
ASSOCIATED PRESS

MONTPELIER — When Gov. Howard Dean wanted to raise money for a possible presidential bid, he followed the example of a former governor of Texas and called on his friends in the energy industry.
>>>>>>>
“Administration actions going back some years betray an inappropriate coziness with the utilities,” said Paul Burns, executive director of the Vermont Public Service Research Group. “I am not prepared to say it’s a result of contributions given. But these contributions present the appearance of impropriety or appearance of influence that it probably would have been better to avoid.”
Dean’s close relationship with utility representatives dates back to the day he became governor in 1991. A lobbyist for Green Mountain Power and a GMP employee were among the first people Dean called in to help his transition.
A list of the Governor’s Council of Economic Advisers includes Green Mountain Power Corp.’s chairman, two company board members and a vice president, all of whom made donations to the Fund For A Healthy America. It also includes two longtime utility lobbyists.
Over the years, the governor has sided with the utilities on many of the most pressing issues, including the push for deregulation of the electric industry, and later backing away from that as a goal. Among other major decisions:
— After years of pushing for the companies to absorb the excess costs of their expensive contract with Hydro-Quebec, Dean’s Department of Public Service agreed to let ratepayers be billed for more than 90 percent of what those excess costs are expected to be in the coming years. The extra costs will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

>>>>>>>  
Here's the article about his talk with the CATO Institute:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/073ylkiz.asp

SEVERAL YEARS AGO an obscure Democratic governor from the politically inconsequential state of Vermont was the guest speaker at a Cato Institute lunch. His name was Howard Dean. He had been awarded one of the highest grades among all Democrats (and a better grade than at least half of the Republicans) in the annual Cato Fiscal Report Card on the Governors. We were curious about his views because we had heard that he harbored political ambitions beyond the governorship.
Dean charmed nearly everyone in the boardroom. He came across as erudite, policy savvy, and, believe it or not, a friend of free markets--at least by the standards of the Tom Daschle-Dick Gephardt axis of the Democratic party. Even when challenged on issues like environmentalism, where he favored a large centralized mass of intrusive regulations, Dean remained affable.

"You folks at Cato," he told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.
He left--and I will never forget the nearly hypnotic reaction. The charismatic doctor had made believers of several hardened cynics. Nearly everyone agreed that we had finally found a Democrat we could work with. Since then, I've watched Dean's career with more than a little interest and we chat from time to time on the phone.
>>>>>>
Dean is nothing if not a survivor--as well as an iconoclast. Even as he pursued wild-eyed social experiments, Dean carefully nurtured a reputation as a "business-friendly" governor. On numerous occasions he pragmatically swept aside onerous environmental regulations and last-use restrictions (this is the greenest state of all) to make room for business expansion and jobs, jobs, jobs. He supported electricity deregulation to take monopolistic pricing power away from big utilities. He even launched one of the nation's most progressive voucher programs for high school students.
>>>>>>
  
 

[cprise]

50. The only intelligent Dean criticism I have ever seen in a Clark thread

At least the first half. The second was before Bush/Enron/PNAC had any impact. Now we have an anti-NAFTA Dean.

And he was capable of creating a real health program WHILE balancing the budget. That's not Cato-friendly.

I'll take this opportunity to expose the Libertarian Lie/camoflage re: socially liberal. Their references to Dean's gay rights support using phrases like "wild-eyed social experiments". They want a completely money-based society so that investment and inheritence patterns will distance and/or starve the 'undesirables'.

[Rose Siding]

51. The first article

says Dean *didn't* end up supporting de-reg and the second mentions nothing about *energy* de-reg.

Eviron standards in VT were more strict than even called for by Kyoto

http://deandefense.org/archives/000596.html

[blm]

70. Wrong...when he couldn't push it through he

dropped it as a GOAL, but, sought to implement it incrementally. Big difference.

Like the way universal healthcare was dropped by Clinton, but, Kennedy and Kerry pushed through the parts they could implement incrementally, the CHIPS program.

[dsc]

63. I would like a citation for the voucher program

it doesn't exist. The one and only voucher program according to Education Weekly (as posted by me when this article was first posted) listed every single voucher program as of November 2001. There was only one listed for Vermont which was 138 years old. It also involved only students living in towns without schools. For the Cato liar to be telling the truth you have to believe one of the following.

a) Education Weekly is so incompetent that in an article about vouchers across the US they forgot to mention a voucher program started in the last 12 years in Vermont. This would be rather like Sports Illustrated forgetting baseball is a sport.

b) Education Weekly is conspring with Dean or for some other reason is actively lieing about voucher programs in Vermont.

or c) Dean somehow started a voucher program in Vermont between Nov 2001 and January 2003 and no one, anywhere reported it.

So again a link to back up the Cato liar you chose to quote.

[blm]

69. If he lied, I'm sure since he is friendly with Dean

and they speak on the phone, then Dean can ask him to correct whatever Dean disputes.

[dsc]

71. +so the answer

as always with you, is no. I figured as much.

[blm]

72. That's assinine to expect me to cite for the reporter

on an issue I haven't even singled out. Your absurdity in regard to me knows no bounds, does it?

I pointed to his push for deregulating electricity. YOU want me to prove something else for the writer who is friendly with Dean. Sheesh.

[dsc]

75. He isn't a reporter

he is a right wing nut job. So yes if you are going to quote right wing whackos you need to back up what they say. You chose him as a source.

[GOPBasher]

29. I'm a Clark supporter, but

I happen to disagree about Dean. I think he's given good proposals and I'd be behind him 100% in the general election, should he get the nod.

[Bread and Circus]

32. I respect your balance, perspective, and....

pro-democratic support.

[GOPBasher]

35. Thanks

:)

[kang]

57. Let's not attack Dean since

he's largely got policies that all liberals could live with. On the political level, I'm not sure it's a good idea to repeal the tax cuts for the middle class (not that it helps that Kerry's called it raising taxes). However, I don't think it's a good idea for Clark or his supporters to attack any candidate.

Clark's campaign is about uniting the party, not pitting one part of it against the other. That's not what leadership is about. I think it's unfair that Dean's being smeared w/the Gingrich label even if he did lend ammunition to the GOP when the Dems were battling over Medicare. That was then, this is now and Dean's policies in covering children in NH are admirable. Who would you trust more w/our health care system: A former doctor or a former and current loser? HOWEVER, it's even more unfair for Dean to call Clark a "Republican until X days ago" since Dean knows that Clark was never a registered Republican. Although he voted for Reagan and Nixon, Clark also voted for Clinton and Gore. And yes, he has attended fundraisers for both sides in the past and was courted by both sides to run for either Congress or governor.

Let's try acheiving some kind of Dean/Clark detente? It's not productive.

[Bread and Circus]

61. I'd welcome a Dean Presidency a million times....

more than a Bush Presidency.

Though I want Clark to win, I would be happy
if Dean became President.

I don't think Dean is bad overall. He has many
good things about him. He is moderate and smart.

It's just that when he smeared Clark with a falsehood,
it really made me angry and dispels any myth that he
is not "politics as usual".

Some of his supporters admit this, and because of their
balance, I am deeply appreciative. Clark is a freshly
minted Democrat, I will admit, but he was never a Republican.
However, I understand that people want to know if they
can trust him before supporting him. That is smart.
I trust Clark. I just want other people to give him
time and then decide for themselves. I just don't want
political leaders spinning things so far out of control
that people can't even see the truth.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

36. The fear is palpable.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bread and Circus]

39. I am not sure why they deleted my message...

but let me suggest in more mellow tones:

Something more than a one liner "hit and run" that
seems to have little to do with anything would be more
appropriate.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

46. The fear is palpable.

I stand by my post and it's pertinence and appropriateness to this thread.

[Larkspur]

41. Dean's entire campaign is publicly funded by We the People

or at least those of us who donate and that is what campaign finance reform should be about. Dean did this by inspiring people to join his campaign, work with it, and donate to it.

Unlike Clinton, Dean has inspired people who have never donated to a politician before to do so.

As far as his position on campaign finance reform, Dean supports it, but right now Bush can opt out of it with his $200 million predicted campaign war chest. And it's Bush, not Dean or any other Democrat, who is the thorn in campaign finance reform.

[Rose Siding]

43. Did you ever notice Clark

Doesn't talk about bringing power to the people?

[Larkspur]

44. Yes, I noticed that

and in light that he's a registered Independent, not a Democrat, we know why -- he's a con man, like Bushy.

[Bucky]

45. Your "Disclaimer"

It is so typical of Clark supporters to do things like offer honest disclaimers about their biases. I think people are mostly attracted to Clark because he has a gut instinct for taking the high road. So it's only natural that a Clarkie, even in an attack thread like this, will step back at the end and state "I am a Clark supporter. I will stop being negative about Dean when he sets a higher standard."

IOW: I'll play the game, but wouldn't it be better if we fixed the rules?

I have never heard a candidate talk the way Clark talks. He avoids boilerplate, "power to the people" rhetoric that is employed by pols on the right and left. He's an idealist who deals with political issues in the most pragmatic of terms. The supporters of Clark seem to be people who most yearn for objectivity and fairness from their leaders.

[w4rma]

54. boilerplate?

The term "People Powered Howard" came from a Dean supporter on the Dean blog. That's *not* boilerplate.

Also, IMHO, in this period of time where big corporate and big money power has overtaken politics, power to the people is extremely important.

[dsc]

65. Silly me

I thought the avitar that said Dean was my disclaimer. Is it really your contention that I have to type the words I am a Dean supporter in every single post on him I write or I am not taking the high road? That seems assine.

[WesWing2004]

47. comments on Dean supporters

I finally figured out why I just can't stomach some of the Deanies -- they remind me so much of the geeks and slackers that drove the internet bubble. This attitude of air hockey for everyone, aren't we so "kewl."

Reeks of PR spin to the max, like they are marketing the latest greatest product. Someone said on another board, stop shoving HD down our throats, and let us kick the tires before we buy it.

Until the primaries decide otherwise, my greatest hopes are pinned on Clark.

[Rose Siding]

55. "geeks and slackers"?

If you think Dean supporters aren't working for him, you aren't paying attention.

Your post is really too uncivil to respond to, but I'm curious. How exactly is Dean being shoved down your throat when someone offers an argument in defense of a candidate?

I do, however, understand that it's hard to stomache some people. Narrow minded name calling of a broad group of people is one of my pet peeves.

[w4rma]

56. I'd like to kick the tires of the Clark product before buying it

So why don't *you* quit shoving WC down *our* throats?

[WesWing2004]

58. nobody

is shoving Clark down your throat.

you came here on your own accord. i think its our thread thank you.

[cprise]

52. Thank you for bringing up this subject

Us Deanies are very interested to see the disparities between Dean and Clark campaign funding.

[serryjw]

62. 100% agree!

I see the Dean supporters enjoying the 'fight'. They have embraced the Bush bashing( rightfully so!)....BUT there is more that is needed. I have listened to ALL of Calrks speeches......I encourage you to do the same on c-span.

[Duder]

64. Clark supporters, did you ever notice...

...that Clark usually uses "I" in his speeches, whereas Dean uses "our" or "we" in his?

Clark might still be an acceptable VP though.

[Bread and Circus]

66. I want to apologize for my angry tone...

in this piece.

I still think campaign reform and the effects
of money on politics in general seriously needs
to be looked at. I don't think internet fundraising
fixes it. It changes the rules a bit, but we have
a long way to go.

I think that's something most of us can agree upon.

[clar]

67. hey, we all

get angy sometimes. I appreciate your apology. And I agree that campaign finance reform is a very serious issue. Alas, I hold out little hope that it will be addressed in a meaningful way.

[deaniebopper]

68. You just want to smear Dean because Clark is a closet Repug

[Romberry]

73. Nothing to substantiate?

LOL!!! Is your name Bob Nofacts? :)

Seriously now, Dean has made the point repeatedly that this is a people powered campaign that's running on thousands and thousands of small donations. No "Bush Pioneers" here. If you miss the difference it's because you want to.

One last point: Since it seems that all Clark supporters know how to do is invade Dean threads and start threads bashing Dean, I don't want to see one word of objection when the same is given in return. Some of you people take the cake.