JFK's speech to the nation on civil rights, forty-one years ago.

[AP]

Listen to this an honestly tell me if you think that Dean's the first Democrat to talk to white people about race.

This was a nationally televised/radio broadcast speech about the violence that broke out at Old Miss after James Meredith tried to attend classes there.

You can also listen to this speech at http://www.jfklibrary.org/j061163.htm

This speech almost brings tears to my eyes every time I hear it. That is a big reason why I'm so insulted when I hear Howard Dean say what he says about race. And, furthermore, read or listen to this speech and tell me if you think Dean is right to think civil rights legislation is less important than how white Americans feel about race.

--

I hope that every American, regardless of where he lives, will stop and examine his conscience about this and other related incidents. This Nation was founded by men of many nations and backgrounds. It was founded on the principle that all men are created equal, and that the rights of every man are diminished when the rights of one man are threatened.

Today we are committed to a worldwide struggle to promote and protect the rights of all who wish to be free. And when Americans are sent to Viet-Nam or West Berlin, we do not ask for whites only. It ought to be possible, therefore, for American students of any color to attend any public institution they select without having to be backed up by troops.

It ought to be possible for American consumers of any color to receive equal service in places of public accomodations, such as hotels and restaurants and theaters and retail stores, without being forced to resort to demonstrations in the street, and it ought to be possible for American citizens of any color to register to vote in a free election without interference or fear of reprisal.

It ought to be possible, in short, for every American to enjoy the privileges of being American without regard to his race or his color. In short, every American ought to have the right to be treated as he would wish to be treated, as one would wish his children to be treated. But this is not the case.

The Negro baby born in America today, regardless of the section of the Nation in which he is born, has about one-half as much chance of completing a high school as a white baby born in the same place on the same day, one-third as much chance of completing college, one-third as much chance of becoming a professional man, twice as much chance of becoming unemployed, about one-seventh as much chance of earning $10,000 a year, a life expectancy which is 7 years shorter, and the prospects of earning only half as much.
...

We are confronted primarily with a moral issue. It is as old as the scriptures and is as clear as the American Constitution.

The heart of the question is whether all Americans are to be afforded equal rights and equal opportunities, whether we are going to treat our fellow Americans as we want to be treated. If an American, because his skin is dark, cannot eat lunch in a restaurant open to the public, if he cannot send his children to the best public school available, if he cannot vote for the public officials who will represent him, if, in short, he cannot enjoy the full and free life which all of us want, then who among us would be content to have the color of his skin changed and stand in his place? Who among us would then be content with the counsels of patience and delay?

One hundred years of delay have passed since President Lincoln freed the slaves, yet their heirs, their grandsons, are not fully free. They are not yet freed from the bonds of injustice. They are not yet freed from social and economic oppression. And this Nation, for all its hopes and all its boasts, will not be fully free until all its citizens are free.
....

The fires of frustration and discord are burning in every city, North and South, where legal remedies are not at hand. Redress is sought in the streets, in demonstrations, parades, and protests which create tensions and threaten violence and threaten lives.

...

Those who do nothing are invitingshame as well as violence. Those who act boldly are recognizing right as well as reality.

...

As I have said before, not every child has an equal talent or an equal ability or an equal motivation, but they should have an equal right to develop their talent and their ability and their motivation, to make something of themselves.

We have a right to expect that the Negro community will be responsible, will uphold the law, but they have a right to expect that the law will be fair, that the Constitution will be color blind, as Justice Harlan said at the turn of the century.

This is what we are talking about and this is a matter which concerns this country and what it stands for, and in meeting it I ask the support of all our citizens.

Thank you very much.

[JohnKleeb]

1. Thats beautiful

Of course I am not suprised being who the messanger is nudge nudge.

[AP]

2. I want to emphasize that this speech was broadcast to the entire nation.

My exerpts don't do this speech justice. It was a very powerful statement about race. There was no parsing the issues or cloaking things in terms palatable to white people. This was the full arument, right there. And it established the foundation upon which Democrats addressed race for the next 40 years.

Thanks to Clinton, I do think that America has changed in a way that requires a new articulation of the arguments. But that new articulation isn't going to come in the form of going backwards 40 years and pretending that changing hearts is more important than enforcing laws, and it won't be achieved through metaphors of how white men might suffer from gender discrimination down at the Governors' office in VT.

[JohnKleeb]

5. I know what you are saying

and I agree completely. We can thank FDR for changing our party's views on economics but JFK really helped out big on race. This man was something else although of him, Ted, and Bob, Bob is my favorite Kennedy but its hard because all are so great.

[acerbic]

3. AAAHHH-CHOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

My hay fever and all those straw men...

Listen to this an honestly tell me if you think that Dean's the first Democrat to talk to white people about race.

Has anyone said they think "Dean's the first Democrat to talk to white people about race"? Who? When? Where?

if you think Dean is right to think civil rights legislation is less important than how white Americans feel about race.

Out of who's butt did you yank that Dean thinks "civil rights legislation is less important than how white Americans feel about race"?

BTW, can anyone honestly agree with Edwards that the Earth should be demolished to make room for a new interstellar highway?
:think:

[AP]

6. Agreed. Dean doesn't think he's the first. He thinks he's the second.

He said the Clinton was the only other democrat to talk about race.

I'll get the link to Dean's statement...

[AP]

7. Dean's words...

from http://www.michiganfordean.com/news/0914_oped.htm

"Bill Clinton is the only President or white Presidential candidate I have ever heard talk candidly about issues of race in America."

Dean's argument is, essentially, that indifference to racism has resulted in the remaining vestiges of racial discrimination. He says people don't mean to be racist. They honestly believe that the laws are fair, that the playing field is level, and that any remaining segregation is by choice.

Fine. That's a component of racism. But I think the effect of this argument is to say that the only thing you're going to ask of white people is just to be less indifferent so that they don't accidentally discriminate against someone.

"White Americans don't understand that indifference and lack of understanding does lead to institutional racism, where, despite the best intentions of the individuals who run the institution, day-to-day hiring practices only reinforce African American fears and suspicions of bias."

Was it indifference that led to voter disenfranchisement in FL 2000? Is it indifference which makes politicians do things to facilitate the use of race as a wedge issue? CA businesses hold back blacks and latinos not because of indifference. In fact, it's the opposite. They're extremely interested in having an underclass in America willing to labor for half the going rate, because it increases profits. That's not indifference. That's cool, rational calculation, which comes from paying attention.

Dean says that affirmative action is still important, sure, but that "the discussion of that unconscious bias is essential if we are ever going to bridge the gaps between white America and not only African Americans, but the Latino community, Native-Americans, Asian Americans, and women of all ethnic backgrounds."

Dean says, "Talking about race means confronting ourselves with the vastly different perceptions that we have about each other, and trying to walk a mile in one another’s shoes." Kennedy, however, talks about how important equal rights are, and the law is. Which do you think is more important, and more relevant for a Governor or a President to concern him or herself with? Well, the government makes and enforces laws, so I'll give onto Ceasar what is Ceasar's (taking care of the law), and I'll deal with my heart and mind on my own time.

Dean says that "Race is not simply a matter of civil rights; it can influence the right to thrive and prosper in American society. A discussion of race is incomplete without addressing the impact of race or ethnicity on the ability to access affordable health care, quality education and the capital to build businesses and create wealth." You know what, I think that last part is actually a discussion of civil rights. I don't know how talking about unconscious biases is going to fix the things that make health care and education and business opportunites not work for people who aren't white. Take vouchers, for example. Vouchers could have a huge impact on education for black people. They could completely decimate free public education, leaving behind for-fee education as the ONLY realistic option. Addressing unconscious biases will play no roll in that debate at all. See how that works?

And here is the final sentence, and weakest sentiment in the statement: " If America is going to prosper as the most diverse nation on the face of the earth, we are all going to have to take responsibility for the stereotypes we have of each other, and debunk them."

Debunking stereotypes and a nickel might buy you a cup of coffee, but I don't think it's going to eliminate the racial divide in America.

However, it's a lot cheaper, and progress is harder to measure if your goal is to eliminate stereotypes.

As an aside, I have to say that I'm amazed that Dean can make such hollow, faulty arguments about race and that people totally ignore what he's saying and instead chose to fill up this hollow vessel with whatever meaning they chose. Dean has done a remarkable job of creating a vessel that well intentioned, liberals are willing to fill with the meaning of their choice. But, really, read this speach closely and critically, and ask yourself if you think he's right about race.

He is asking Americans for nothing. Clinton and others have argued that sometimes, if you're white, you have to give up a little bit of your privilege so that somebody else who's willing to work hard and contribute to society can get that chance. The message about race since 1962 has been that, if you're white, you might have to sacrifice a little something you felt you were entitled to, so that society could be better and wealthier and happier and fairer. Dean's message is basically that, if you're white, the only thing you have to sacrifice is a mental stereotype.

[acerbic]

8. Just one point:

"Bill Clinton is the only President or white Presidential candidate I have ever heard talk candidly about issues of race in America."

Ok, so that's what Dean actually said. Now try to debunk it by showing an example of another President or white Presidential candidate talking candidly about issues of race in America.

I don't consider that speech by JFK to be it. He was not infallible and e.g. this part is quite uncandid:

"It was founded on the principle that all men are created equal"

When USA was founded, there was not the slightest indication that those words as we interpret them now were the principle used. Non-whites just weren't considered even men and pretending otherwise is, well, pretending...

Deal with that and then we may take a look at the rest of your conjecture.

[AP]

9. What could be more candid than JFK's speech??????

JFK laid it out. There really isn't anything that needed to be said about race that wasn't in that speech. Deal with that.

Oh, and psst, that statment about being created equal...Kennedy was making a candidd statement about how the very essense of the American promise of liberty and justice was being denied to a part of its population.

And, c'mon, if Kennedy said that racism was more about feelings than law, and that he, as president, was going to try to enact feelings rather than law, and that maybe racism will come to an end as a result, you'd be happier with that?

[acerbic]

10. AAAHHH-CHOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

And, c'mon, if Kennedy said that racism was more about feelings than law, and that he, as president, was going to try to enact feelings rather than law, and that maybe racism will come to an end as a result, you'd be happier with that?

AAAHHH-CHOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
AAAHHH-CHOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
AAAHHH-CHOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
AAAHHH-CHOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
AAAHHH-CHOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
AAAHHH-CHOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
AAAHHH-CHOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
AAAHHH-CHOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

[AP]

11. So? What do you find more candid and more likely to result in change?

An appeal to people's unconscious stereotyping or an appeal to people's sense of justice and belief in what it means to be an American?

Isn't the thing about unconscious stereoptyping that it's unconscious? If you're asking me to think about and change things that I do unconsciously, you're basically asking me to do nothing. How can I change my unconscious thought processes?

I read these statements by Dean and I think, what the fucking hell? Is he for real?

Does anybody actually pay attention to what he's saying?

[AP]

13. You know what isn't a straw man argument? It's when I take Dean's precise

quotes and I address them. I'm not inventing some version of Dean. I'm holding Dean accountable for his actual words.

Dean says that civil rights are great, but what really matters is to end unconscious stereotyping.

How does he think that's going to happen? Well, he doesn't say. He seems to think that it's enought to tell allegories about anti-male discrimination.

Perhaps, governments that do their job and apply laws equally and take affirmative legal and administrative steps to address racial differences tend to create societies in which people tend not to have unconscious discriminatory feelings? And even if they don't do that directly, because it is the governments job to make and enforce laws, I'd be much happier if they'd focus on that end of the equation rather than on the unconscious feeling end of the equation.

[AP]

15. One more thing: I'd be more worried about hollow men than straw men

You know what a hollow man is? A guy who says a lot of vague shit and lets you fill him up with anything you, personally, want to believe.

And if you believe than talking about unconscious feelings is talking about race, and if reading JFK's speech doesn't change your mind, I don't know how I can help you.

[genius]

4. That is beautiful

Dean's claims come across as very racist to me because he is underestimating the ability of minorities to see through his lie. It's like an insult to their intelligence. I guess he doesn't think non-whites are capable of checking out the facts.

While trying to pretend to be a non-racist, Dean's position on criminal justice is extremely racist. He either doesn't realize that a lot of innocent people were picked up simply because of the way they look or he doesn't care. Anyone who wants to expidite convictions and execute people has a complete lack of empathy for innocent victims of overzealous racist policemen. By the way, a number of my relatives and friends have been law enforcement officers and I've heard some pretty bad horror stories.

[AP]

12. It amazes me that more people aren't taking up this discussion.

This is a serious issue, and I'm doing a close reading of Dean's statement, and nobody is really trying to defend him.

Am I totally right on this issue. Is Dean's statement indefensible?

I thought that I'd have to do a little more to defend my argument, but it looks like I hit the nail on the head with the first swing.

In that case, I'd like some post from people which say, 'yes, I think you're right. I didn't realize that before."

[genius]

14. It made it into a comic strip

It was in "The Continuing Adventures of Cowardly Tom and Bully George" at http://mhull.rupa.com

I believe it's in epidsode 47.

[indigo32]

16. Maybe there are those of us

who think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I think Dean is facing alot of criticism about the whiteness of his followers... when nobody else is being questioned on the issue and I'm guessing most aren't in any better a position than he is on the issue... and this is how he's chosen to deal with it... emphasizing the fact that he won't back away from the issue. Why is this such a major issue to you?

[AP]

18. Well, I guess. If you think race is a mole hill issue.

And what I've written doesn't really have much to do with the whiteness of Dean's followers. It has to do with the actual words and ideas he uses in relation to race.

[indigo32]

19. really seriously thats not what I meant

the way I perceived your original post was as a complaint over Dean saying he was the only one to talk about race issues. Thats basically what you said was it not?

[AP]

22. My original complaint is obvious, I think. Should I repeat it?

I think Dean's entire statement about race (the link is above) is problematic.

I think its logic isn't logical at all (I think good policy changes hearts, and, even if I'm wrong, I think the government should be in the business of making and enforcing good policy first, and think of its ability to change hearts as a consequence of making good policy).

I think Dean's statement is filled with misleading arguments and analogies, one of which is that Clinton is the only president to talk about race the right way. See the JFK speech. Furthermore, Clinton talked about race the way JFK talked about it, not the way Dean talks about it.

Cliton's central message about race was that racism holds us all back, and Clinton changed policy, he didn't think that policy did all it could do with the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and that changing unconscious feelings was the main battle ground.

[indigo32]

24. OK found the link in post #7

was looking at post #1.
I guess I don't feel that he is turning his back on policy
"Affirmative action is still needed in order to overcome the unconscious biases that all Americans of every ethnic group have toward hiring people like themselves" is just one example.

And why shouldn't we be talking about unconcious biases? I guess I can understand if you take an overall stand that Gov shouldn't be in the Business of changing peoples hearts. But I disagree. I think we need to talk about what goes on. About the profiling, the segregation. Just ruling it out in one place moves it to another. Should we pretend it isn't there?

[AP]

29. Read the next sentence after the one you quoted..

...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

17. I don't get it either.

What is with the infallibility defense? I just don't get it. I support Kerry but I don't think he shits gold, to paraphrase another poster.

[AP]

20. I think that's the very essense of Dean...

...he is what you want him to be. He says just enough to pat you on the bottom and send you along the path, but you take it the rest of the way yourself.

And I think he's intentionally vague. Not only does it not pin him down, but it allows him to appeal to some of your worst instincts rather than your best. And people love to have their worst instincts made noble. It makes you feel really good. Eating a lot of crap can be good! I love you Dr Atkins! Spending all day on the internet posting anonymously is doing something! I love you DU!

Maybe he believes that the kind of person who will like him doesn't want to hear a message about race which requires you to give up some of your privilege. Maybe he thinks that his followers need to be coddled with messages that make them feel like doing nothing is doing something, that "feeling" a different way "unconsciously" is doing something significant.

I don't know. But I think there's something crazy in this Dean message which nobody is talking about.

[acerbic]

21. ...and today's word is:

Spending all day on the internet posting anonymously is doing something! I love you DU! Maybe he believes that the kind of person who will like him doesn't want to hear a message about race which requires you to give up some of your privilege.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=projecting

Psychology. To externalize and attribute (an emotion or motive, for example) unconsciously to someone or something else in order to avoid anxiety.

[AP]

23. The thing is, I know this isn't a virtue.

The problem is, Dean is telling people that changing their unconscious feelings, without doing anything more is a virtue and people are believing it...probably because it's easy.

People love to be told that their weaknesses and flaws and selfishness are virtues. This is actually the central theme of TV shows like Home Improvement and Everybody Loves Raymond. I think that's what Dean's tapping into with this statement about race.

[indigo32]

25. Wow

I'm speechless... I'd love to respond but I need you to elaborate. I'm amazed. He runs a very empowering campaign and alot of us are doing alot more than sitting on the internet. And what makes you assume we think it's a virtue when we are... and what makes you think he's telling us it is?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

26. To blindly follow a leader,

without being willing to assess that leader's flaws as well as strengths is hardly a case of being empowered.

[acerbic]

27. Yeah, that's how we liberals are...

Can't help it: many of us were also blindly following Clinton unwilling to assess his murders and drug smuggling when many people were telling us about them... :eyes:

[indigo32]

28. I love how they expect us to have a conversation with them

while they are insulting us. Yup... that really makes me want to talk to someone.

[AP]

30. Conversation? Three things:

(1) Above, I was told I was talking about myself, so I'm not sure how I'm insulting anyone.

(2) What I'm really talking about is how an appeal to do nothing (hang out on the internet, change your feelings rather than change/enforse the law) is made into some kind of appeal to virtue. I'm not saying you're bad for accepting it. I'm just calling out the message for what it is. Asking people to change their subconcsious feelings about race is just about the least you could ask of a person. Asking them to accept the fact that they'll lose some of their privileges in exchange for a happier, wealthier fairer world is aking someone to do something.

(3) Several of my posts above were begging for a conversation about this. None seemed to be forthcoming. Then you post that you're trying to have a conversation with me but I'm just insulting you? That's weak.

Please, I'm begging you. Try to have a conversation about this issue. The best that's been attempted was above where someone said that JFK's reference to "all men created equal" suggested he wasn't being candid (which is laughable).

[indigo32]

31. actually I wasn't talking about you

in that case....but whomever acerbic was talking too right then.
although I still wonder where you come up this idea that Dean is giving an appeal to do nothing. See I look at his campaign and he's telling us we can win this election for ourselves. We're getting involved in the campaign and in Dean Corps (volunteer activity)... and getting more involved in the Dem party.

As for the specific issue of Deans stance on race...I think you are right that maybe he should be saying people might have to give up some of their priviliges, that would be a very bold move... and you are finally spelling out what you are looking for. But I don't hear anybody else saying that either. Is that ducking the issue? Maybe but apparently Dean is the only one going to be questioned on it. I also think that a conversation about our subconcsious feelings is at least a place to start. And nobody is saying to give up policy enforcement.

[AP]

35. To say that you're going to have to give up what you

perceived as a privilege of being white so that America can be wealthier, happier and more democratic is something that all Dems have been saying since JFK. For Dean not to note this is a step backwards 42 44 years, in my mind. The other candidates ARE talking like that. It isn't bold. It's just stating the truth about race.

Dean is only being questioned about this because he really is saying the craziest things about race. However, as far as I know, I'm the only person I've seen break this full statement down and call it for what it is.

And you really should look closely at that speach. Dean is saying that the real issue is feelings and isn't so much law. In fact, he's implying that laws didn't really succeed because they didn't change feelings.

[indigo32]

37. So here in MN

we just completed a study indicating pretty severe profiling issues in the cars cops were pulling over. What is going to deal with that issue? At some point we have to look inside and see what is causing us to look at people differently. No this is not a step back 42-44 years. We have lots of people who think there is no issue at all anymore...and we should just get rid of the laws in place to try and balance out the bias. What is it you want to see happen?

[AP]

38. This is exactly my point. What's going to stop driving while black stops?

Do you really think an outreach or looking into your heart is going to change that, or do you think having actual policies in place would do it. It would be great if people could have a cause of action if victimized by this. That would realy change things fast. But I'll admit that's unlikely to happen.

In fact, forget looking into your unconscious. Look into your head. Studies show that racial profiling is an inefficient use of resources and a poor police method.

[indigo32]

39. well we agree on a couple things here

1) it makes no sense on many levels to be biased
2) policies surrounding that bias are a good thing

where we disagree is that there would be no benefit in trying to look at the underlying cause, and that Dean is opposed to the policies that are in place to prevent bias.

[indigo32]

40. Please note AP

that I got through this entire conversation up to this point without
1. stating that you knew nothing about race
2. stating that you think sitting on the internet all day is a great thing and accomplishing things.

[AP]

42. I think you're saying it now.

Look, I tempted to tell you that if you tell me who you are, I'll send you a copy of my resume, and then you can tell me what I don't know about race. However, I'll keep my anonymity, 'cause I feel like what I've written above makes the point even better than my resume.

[indigo32]

44. You totally missed the point there

I was saying nothing of the kind. I was simply pointing out that you could have gone without saying such things to me.

[AP]

41. What do you think the underlying cause is?

Do you think it's unconscious bias? Or do you think that there a social, political reasons that go beyond unconscious, are, in fact, very conscious?

The right wing has a lot to gain from the wedge issue of race. I think there are a lot of very conscious policies that lead inevitably down to that traffic stop. Pretending that changing the cops feelings about race (hell, some black and hispanic cops are guilty of treating minorities like shit for the same social reasons that make a white cop do it) is going to solve the problem is ...well...the sort of thing a white liberal who doesn't think hard about racism would think.

[indigo32]

43. well spell it out for me then if I'm so uninformed

I think we are indoctrinated from the day we are born by media for one thing. I also think there are tons of issues that have alot more to do with classism than just simple racism that get involved too.

[AP]

45. I'm not saying that isn't a part of it. But the bigger part

of it, to me, is that there's a lot of money to be made by having a permanent underclass willing to accept low wages, who apply downward pressure on labor market wages for everyone. That contributes to huge profits for the people who have the power to create images in people's heads about race (which was a major theme in Bowling for Columbine). I also think a big way the republicans get elected is by playing race as a wage issue -- especially with issues like crime. The Republicans have a calculated, vested interest in making sure America doesn't work well for black people.

It's a chicken and egg thing, I guess, of playing off images, and paying to reinforce those images.

What I know for sure is that Dean's articulation of the issue plays down the big component and plays up the component that is almost impossible for the government to address. Read JFK's speech. What he talks about is what the law and government can do to keep America's end of the "justice for all" bargain. What Dean talks about isn't the realm of government. And it's actually kind of dangerous that he thinks it is. Because a lot of people are going to be thinking they achieved something just by pretending they've controlled their "unconscious" thoughts of bias.

[AP]

46. Example: do you think Rush's ESPN racism was the product of

unconscious feelings, or is it a calculated attempt by someone in the media who is very powerful to create a climate in which Republicans can manipulate the wedge issue of race to get elected?

What can THE GOVERNMENT do to stop people like Limbaugh? Should the government continue it's battle to level the playing field, and spread wealth to all people regardless of race? Or should it ask people to look into their hearts?

[AP]

51. Example 2: Bureau of Indian Affairs

I just reread my post #7, and Dean's reference to Native Americans reminded me of the BIA. Apparently the Fed Gov't has put billions of taxpayer dollars into a trust fund for native americans. That money never reached the indians. So, basically, holding back American Indians, economically and politically has been facilitating the theft of billions from this trust fund. If the native Ameircican actually had a little middle class wealth, they probably would have had the resources (knowledge, money) to hire lawyers YEARS ago and they would have been able to figure out they were being robbed blind.

Now, if you believe Dean, you'd think that the problem for native Ameircans was unconscious hiring prejudices. It isn't. The problems are way more deliberately created, and way more nefarious.

[acerbic]

47. Spin, twist... twirling... always twirling...

What Dean talks about isn't the realm of government. And it's actually kind of dangerous that he thinks it is.

The recipe:
1. Take one instance where Dean talks about an issue that is not in the realm of government.
2. Claim that it means that he is e.g. against civil rights legislation by carefully, obtusely ignoring all instances where Dean talks about racial issues that ARE in the realm of government.
3. Repeat ad nauseam ad infinitum and pretend that stubborn repeating makes the "yourfactsarewrong" true.

:puke:

[AP]

48. Spin and twist? I'm reading the man's statement about race.

Do a close reading yourself. Granted, Dean uses vague, feel good statements. But, break it down. Look closely. My reading is pretty accurate.

The implication is clear. For forty years we've cared about civil rights. There's still a problem. So rights and laws weren't enough. We have to focus on unconscious feelings too. Once we do that, problem solved.

You say I'm taking "one instance" but I'm reading the man's often repeated statement about race.

One example? How about his allegory about race? It's about anti-male gender discrimination. He's repeated that more than once too.

Give me any other statement Dean has made about race and I'll break it down too.

[acerbic]

55. You're reading one sentence, claiming that it's ALL he says

...and conjuring up your "interpretation" (use of proper noun prohibited by DU rules).

Yup, straight from the recipe:
2. Claim that it means that he is e.g. against civil rights legislation by carefully, obtusely ignoring all instances where Dean talks about racial issues that ARE in the realm of government.

Give me any other statement Dean has made about race and I'll break it down too.

Ok, here are actual statements by Dean for you to "break down":

"I will support affirmative action, from which we have all benefited, because it has strengthened our institutions and provided opportunity."
"I will work to ensure that racial profiling ends and I will direct my Attorney General to use regulatory authority under existing anti-discrimination laws the 1964 Civil Rights Act to define racial profiling as discrimination, and to withhold federal funds from state and local law enforcement that violate those regulations."
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_civilrights

[AP]

56. Close reading is in post 7

I stand by it.

Also compare Dean's "support" for AA with the way Clinton articulates the role of AA. Clinton really supports it.

[AP]

57. As for reading one sentence...

...I think it's really important to listen to what these candidates say when the have the attention of the public, ie, in their stump speeches, and when they're interviewed by the media. I'm commenting on Dean's conference call (with the anti-male gender discrimination analogy), the things he's said in the debates, his interview on Tavis, and the quote in post 7 (which I presume is from a stump speech, and, in any event, repeats themes I've heard publicly).

I'm not taking one sentence. I'm actually putting together the clues and I'm deciphering the message.

[acerbic]

58. muahahahahahahaha...

I'm not taking one sentence. I'm actually putting together the clues and I'm deciphering the message.

You seem to be able to spew "replies" and claims but contrary to your boasting, you don't seem to be able to "break down" or "decipher" these statements:

"I will support affirmative action, from which we have all benefited, because it has strengthened our institutions and provided opportunity."
"I will work to ensure that racial profiling ends and I will direct my Attorney General to use regulatory authority under existing anti-discrimination laws the 1964 Civil Rights Act to define racial profiling as discrimination, and to withhold federal funds from state and local law enforcement that violate those regulations."
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_civilrights

I guess they are just totally incomprehensible to you. :eyes:

[AP]

59. You're taking the only two sentences from his web site about race and...

...(on that page) and saying they carry more weight that his stump speech and the other stuff he repeats every time he's on the radio?

When he, uh, riffs on race (see his conference call and the longer speech linked in post 7) he's giving us his full argument. He implies in his long-form argument that he's for AA and against profiling (I believe), but his philosophy on race is much more clear when you put it next to the stuff on "unconscious" feelings.

Hell, look at the structure of the argument. Look at my post 7. He says AA, and civil rights laws were good, but they aren't solvign the problem. We have to address unconscious feelings.

And what about his often repeated anti (white) male gender discrimination allegory? THAT's his blunt talk about RACE? GENDER discrimination? Against MEN? C'mon.

[acerbic]

60. So now you don't even take any one-sentence quotes and

"interpret" them: you simply issue your claims and proclamations. Useless... :eyes:

[AP]

61. You take one sentence and impart a lot of meaning to it.

I say that same sentence is in his stump speech, etc, and when you look at IN THE CONTEXT of the other things he says, there's a larger meaning WHICH IS QUITE OBVIOUS.

Call it useless, but I think it's very obvious.

And you know that what I'm doing is not so much "claims and proclamations", but close reading, analysis and interpretation.

I think what you're doing is much closer to claims and proclamations.

Also, what do you think of things like the BIA trust fund rip off?

Also, I just want to emphasize the Clinton quote. Clinton says the most important way to fight racism is, bascially, to make sure more wealth and political power flows down to racial minorities (along with all people, regardless of race, who are at the bottom rungs). I just want to emphasize that.

[indigo32]

49. See I'm very interested in hearing what you have to say about

race... as long as you refrain from being condescending (which you weren't there I'll admit)...
but now you are stepping back into hyperbole...
Dean's strategy for race is "dangerous"... sets us back 40 years, you have NOT made any kind of cogent arguement for this case.
Show me a statement where he says we should stop using and enforcing the policies. Show me a statement where another candidate is talking about race in the terms you do ("there's a lot of money to be made by having a permanent underclass willing to accept low wages". DO NOT TELL ME I'M NOT PAYING ATTENTION OR LISTENING.

[AP]

50. I think it's dangerous to tell America that they can address any social or

political problem by trying to change your unconscious feelings.

Of course Dean isn't going to say that laws aren't important, but I think you should do a close reading of his longer statement and ask yourself what he thinks is important. He clearly implies that laws have done as much as they can do and now we have to focus on the unconscious.

Edwards's message is that we all do better when we all do better. He says that you don't do well when you're holding other people back. That's basically the JFK argument. It's way tighter with the notion of laws guarantying economic opportunit as the way forward, then Dean's message.

[AP]

52. Most of the points I'm trying to make are in post 7 -- rereading it might

help you understand what I'm saying.

[acerbic]

32. You are a role model for many aspiring Dean haters...

...in how you never comment on anything someone else said without distorting it:

The best that's been attempted was above where someone said that JFK's reference to "all men created equal" suggested he wasn't being candid (which is laughable).

My comment was not about "all men created equal" but about USA supposedly being founded on that principle:

"It (ed. note: USA) was founded on the principle that all men are created equal"

When USA was founded, there was not the slightest indication that those words as we interpret them now were the principle used. Non-whites just weren't considered even men and pretending otherwise is, well, pretending...

Do you personally disagree with me and claim that statement "USA was founded on the principle that all men are created equal" is candid? Did the people who founded USA treat e.g. Indians and Blacks as equal? Did they? Huh?

[AP]

33. That principle is in the declaration of independence

JFK was saying it was founding principle, and we aren't living up to it.

I can't believe I'm arguing this point.

All I can say is that you don't understand either the nuances of JFK's speech or the nuances of Dean's speech.

[indigo32]

34. the whole

was JFK being candid or not thing is a red herring IMO...
you are trying to assert there is something seriously wrong with Deans message on race....that somehow it's a copout... and I would assert it's a beginning. We don't even talk about race at all at this point. When we do it ain't in the mannor you are looking for.

[AP]

36. Only someone who hasn't been listening would say that, I think

There's another thread here with a long list of things people say about race. I've heard Edwards talk about race. They've all talked about it in the same way that JFK talks about it, which is the way Clinton talked about it.

If people haven't been talking about it the way Dean talks about it -- in terms of how white people feel about racism, and rewarding them for changing their feelings -- I say, good. I'd rather talk about it the old way.

Furthermore, if Dean thinks it's a virtue to talk about race this new way, he's sort of like me saying nobody else called 'blue' green before, and I'm doing it now so I'm better than everyone else. There's a reason nobody talked about race THIS way before. It's because nobody who cares about race would talk about it this way.

[Duder]

53. Remarks by the President Clinton

...at University of California at San Diego Commencement, June 14, 1997

San Diego -- President Clinton has asked the American people to join him over the coming year "in a great and unprecedented conversation about race."

In a commencement address on June 14 at the University of California-San Diego, Clinton focused on race relations and outlined a plan to "promote a dialogue in every community of the land to confront and work through these issues, to recruit and encourage leadership at all levels to help breach racial divides...."

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/race/pres616.htm

[AP]

54. OK, let's look at Clinton's race talk...

Of all the questions of discrimination and prejudice that still exist in our society, the most perplexing one is the oldest, and in some ways today, the newest: the problem of race. Can we fulfill the promise of America by embracing all our citizens of all races...?
...

Let me say that I know that for many white Americans, this conversation may seem to exclude them or threaten them. That must not be so. I believe white Americans have just as much to gain as anybody else from being a part of this endeavor -- much to gain from an America where we finally take responsibility for all our children so that they, at last, can be judged as Martin Luther King hoped, "Not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

What is it that we must do? For four and a half years now, I have worked to prepare America for the 21st century with a strategy of opportunity for all, responsibility from all, and an American community of all our citizens. To succeed in each of these areas, we must deal with the realities and the perceptions affecting all racial groups in America.

First, we must continue to expand opportunity. Full participation in our strong and growing economy is the best antidote to envy, despair and racism. We must press forward to move millions more from poverty and welfare to work; to bring the spark of enterprise to inner cities; to redouble our efforts to reach those rural communities prosperity has passed by. And most important of all, we simply must give our young people the finest education in the world.

...

In our efforts to extend economic and educational opportunity to all our citizens, we must consider the role of affirmative action. I know affirmative action has not been perfect in America -- that's why two years ago we began an effort to fix the things that are wrong with it -- but when used in the right way, it has worked.

...

At the very time when we need to do a better job of living and learning together, we should not stop trying to equalize economic opportunity.

...

Beyond opportunity, we must demand responsibility from every American. Our strength as a society depends upon both -- upon people taking responsibility for themselves and their families, teaching their children good values, working hard and obeying the law, and giving back to those around us. The new economy offers fewer guarantees, more risks, and more rewards. It calls upon all of us to take even greater responsibility for our education than ever before.
...

No responsibility is more fundamental than obeying the law. It is not racist to insist that every American do so.
...

And that applies, too, to the enforcement of our civil rights laws. For example, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has a huge backlog of cases with discrimination claims -- though we have reduced it by 25 percent over the last four years. We can do not much better without more resources. It is imperative that Congress -- especially those members who say they're for civil rights but against affirmative action -- at least give us the money necessary to enforce the law of the land and do it soon.
...

We must begin with a candid conversation on the state of race relations today and the implications of Americans of so many different races living and working together as we approach a new century. We must be honest with each other. We have talked at each other and about each other for a long time. It's high time we all began talking with each other...cross-racial communications...
...

If we do nothing more than talk, it will be interesting but it won't be enough. If we do nothing more than propose disconnected acts of policy, it would be helpful, but it won't be enough.
...

Being satisfied if we have what we want and heedless of others who don't even have what they need and deserve is not the American way. We have torn down the barriers in our laws. Now we must break down the barriers in our lives, our minds and our hearts.

--

OK, this is an interesting contrast to Dean. Dean's statement (in post 7) has a very similar format to Clinton's speech, but differs in some critical ways. The arguments are structured in very similar ways -- they say that you have civil rights law, on one hand, and the things people feel in their hearts on the other, and they recognize that the law isn't enough, so they propose further steps, which include a national conversation, in order to change perceptions, and to finally achieve the society promised in the Declaration of Indepence and dreamed of by MLK.

Here's how they differ: Clinton thinks the conversation has to be among people of all races. Dean think the conversation has to be among white people. Clinton enumerates up front what still needs to be done, and it's all law and policy, despite the last two sentences of the quote above. Clinton also makes it clear that people half to make sacrifices, take actions and make committments to achieve good ends. As far as I can tell, Dean thinks that if you try to change your unconscious feelings, you've done alot.