What does this (Dean) statement mean?

[ModerateMiddle]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41684-2003Oct3.html

I was reading the linked article and my brain short-circuited at the following quote:

Dean warned that "we can't get all weepy and liberal about this

Here's the context, per the WaPo:

Another student wondered what Dean might do to lessen the number of African Americans in prison. Dean warned that "we can't get all weepy and liberal about this," but promised to treat substance abuse as a medical issue, rather than a "criminal problem," and to fight racism in sentencing.

But what does he mean, "weepy and liberal"?

[Cocoa]

1. it means Dean made a bad gaffe

I heard Lieberman give a much better answer to this question a while ago. You could tell he understood the magnitude of the injustice.

[La_Serpiente]

2. hmmm

hmm...

He probably means that you can't just be throwing money at it nor be apolgetic about it. One must be tough on crime. However, there also needs to a be a fair justice system to prosecute the crimes.

[Nicholas_J]

6. There is a massive disconnect

beterrn Derans stance on crime.

His statements about supporting the Death penalty for certain people after they recieve a "fair trial" are in direct opposition to the fact that Denaengaged in decesions that make getting even the semblence of fair trial impossible.

Dena fired Robert Appel heald of the Vermont Public Defenders office who after Dean cut his departments budget, while raiseing the budgets to police and prosecutors. Appel found a way to replace the money Dean cut by getting a 150,000 dollar Grant from the federal government to provide defenders for the mentally ill. T

his angered Dean to no end and he did not re-appoint Appel, who was found to have run the BEST public defenders department in the U.S. by his peers.

Article below:



For the Defense

Dean chose not to reappoint Appel for a third four-year term as defender general, the state official who heads the state’s public defender program. In appointing Valerio, of Proctor, the new defender general, Dean had kind words for Appel. But Appel had clashed with Dean on numerous occasions in his efforts to secure for his office the resources necessary to fulfill his duties conscientiously.

Just two years ago Dean tried to prevent Appel from accepting a $150,000 federal grant aimed at assisting defendants with mental disabilities. For Dean to block a government agency from receiving federal money was unusual in itself. But Dean’s openly expressed bias against criminal defendants provided a partial explanation.

Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.

The problem with giving a disproportionate share of state resources to prosecution and enforcement is that it throws the justice system out of kilter. A just result occurs in court only when the prosecution and defense both are ably represented. Thus, Appel felt compelled two years ago to notify the court that the Rutland public defender’s office would take no new cases unless the defendant was in jail. The Rutland office was so short of staff that case backlogs threatened to overwhelm the public defenders.

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:O1NRLqIjzmsJ:www.talkleft.com/archives/003681.html+%22Howard+Dean%22+%22Criminal+Defendants%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

It is more likly that Dean was sticking to his statement that he beleived that "criminals get all the breaks" in the justice system , the crap being spouted that he meant justice be blind.
That is NOT Deans philosophical record.

[RogueTrooper]

3. I think he means

that you cannot patronize people over this issue and that criminal law should be blind.

[AP]

10. He means that general crticism of high black incarceration rates isn't an

objective, rational position. He thinks that, maybe there are a few MEDICAL-based approaches you can take (treatment not punishment for drug-USE crimes). But, on the whole, he apprantly thinks that blacks are in jail at higher rates than whites because they're breaking the law more often, and we're not going to let emotion get in the way of applying the law.

However, I think there are rational, policy-based, unemotional solutions to what is a real problem which goes way beyond the, uh, "fact" that blacks commit disproportionately more crimes.

Hey, by the way, anybody notice that Florida probably won't charge Rush, and didn't charge Noelle Bush. So, let's not get all, weepy and liberal over this issue.

[loyalsister]

40. Oh to be a mindreader!

It would really be nice! Why don't you look at Dean's history and then rethink your ridiculous analysis.
When he was governor, he made a connection to the fact that a huge percentage of inmates had been abused as children. He decided that stopping child abuse was the first step to reducing crime.
He didn't institute a program to rescue children who were being abused. He didn't start a campaign to inspire outrage at child abuse.
He's pragmatic. He started at the beginning. He initiated a program for home visits to newborns to try to cut down on child abuse.

Treating drug abuse medically may also be one of his ideas for starting at the beginning. Consider the fact that there is a culture (ie. the business of dealing is often frought with violence) along with inherent facts associated with drug abuse that lead to potential for people to involve themselves in other crimes. Stealing to finance a habit, dealing, violence etc.
None of us can read his mind, but it seems that this follows his typical line of thinking more than the crap people who want to smear him are putting out there.

[AP]

55. Oh, to listen to the words he speaks rather to inject meaning...

...completely unrelated!

I have no idea what you just cited has to do with what Dean said in response to a question about high incarceration rates for blacks.

[loyalsister]

73. incarceration

is apparently something that he sees as part of a problem that is larger than the jail term itself. That is what his history suggests. I have no idea how a person can credibly say "he thinks...." without having been told so personally by the person they're referring to. Yet you try.
Isn't that injecting meaning? It's always possible an alternate meaning could have been intended for any given word, you know.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AP]

109. Huh?

Ok, that second paragraph, I'm having a hard time following. Must be my incapacity for reading and comprehending.

But, thanks for quoting me becuase I think now I know what I need to defend...

First, I'll say "what history?" Dean is in an overwhelmingly white state, so any 'history' you're using to guess what he'd do tomorrow is going to involve a lot of conjecture which is filled out with general impressions of character, etc.

Secondly, to defend my, uhm, reading and comprehension of the Dean's Howard talk, I'll reiterate: when asked about the incarceration rates, he responded that people shouldn't get weepy and liberal. And then he said that he would move towards treating, rather than incarcerating drug users.

Now, drug USING has to make up a small percentage of the crimes for which blacks are serving time for committing. Drug-related offenses which stem from, say, having to deal to make a living, probably make up more of the crimes for which blacks are serving. And, even if you compared black to white drug charges for drug USE, you'd probably find that the big difference in conviction rates probably has to do with effectiveness of counsel (ie, if you don't have a good lawyer, forget about it -- thus Rush will never be charged, and Noelle will never serve time). So, saying that you're going to give people treatment rather than convictions for drug use doesn't really do much to address the central causes for unequal conviction rates for blacks and whites, regardless of the crime charged.

So, I think Dean's reply doesn't really reflect a nuanced grasp of the issues. Furthermore, that he characterizes any concern for looking into the nuances as being overloaded with emotion rather than rationality is revealing. It's like saying, "set your emotion aside...we can't not convict people because we don't like the feeling we get from disproportionately convicting them...we have to be calmly and cooly rational and make people serve time for the crimes" (which comports with Dean's hostile attituted towards the public defenders in VT). So, clearly the guy is trying to be hard on crime and he slipped into that mode when asked a question that combined race, economics and crime.

Now, that's me doing a close reading. These statements by candidates are meant to be deciphered like that. I'm a little surprised that my attempt to tod that has been characterized as an "incapacity for reading and comprehending" 'cause, frankly, it's one of the few, rare efforts I see around here at doing any kind of critical reading of ayone's stump speeches. Usually people spin, and talk about how people look, and sound like cheerleaders. I wish we had a few more attempts at deciphering candidates' statements rather than spinning them.

[loyalsister]

117. nuances?

You seem to define nuances as understanding an emotional connection.
I understand that as recognizing ambiguity and looking at the larger picture. You fail to see the larger picture here.
Let's try it again.

Referring to my first post
An analogy to a program that Dean implemented in VT where he indicated that he made a connection between child abuse and incarceration. He believed that cutting down on one would cut down on the other. (see speech exceprt below) Thus, I indicated that he may be using a similar model for this idea. The bottom line is that it doesn't sound like he was well prepared for that question, and that was his first thought as a starting point. The truth is, that could help cut down on all of the prison population. I know of a couple who is now in prison for methamphetemine production.
I agree with you that there are other starting points.

First, I'll say "what history?"

From an earlier speech

We were being sued for prison overcrowding. We had built a new prison which we had kept closed deliberately and empty simply to try to reduce operating costs to try to meet our budget targets, and he got his 14 percent increase. And I promised myself at that time that 20 years from then, when a new governor was sitting in that office and there was a budget problem because of a business cycle downturn that they would not be in the position that I was in. Because prisons are a necessary investment, but they're probably the least successful social intervention that we do and the most expensive. Most of the people who go to prison come out worse that they did when they went in. Any competent, qualified kindergarten teacher can tell you who the five kids in his or her class are that are most likely to end up in prison 15 years later.

And my question is, if we have some idea who's going to go to prison 15 years from now, what is it that we're doing or not doing that enables that to happen? With 15 years advance warning. And so we started a program called Success by Six. We stole the name from Minnesota, but the program we created on our own. And what we do in Vermont is make sure that every child regardless of income who wants it, which is about 90 percent of families, gets a home visit within two weeks of their birth.

"So, saying that you're going to give people treatment rather than convictions for drug use doesn't really do much to address the central causes for unequal conviction rates for blacks and whites, regardless of the crime charged."

See how that part of the speech above was based on evidence? Where's yours? Do you have it for all 50 states?


http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean022002.html

he responded that people shouldn't get weepy and liberal. And then he said that he would move towards treating, rather than incarcerating drug users.

"set your emotion aside...we can't not convict people because we don't like the feeling we get from disproportionately convicting them...we have to be calmly and cooly rational and make people serve time for the crimes" (which comports with Dean's hostile attituted towards the public defenders in VT). So, clearly the guy is trying to be hard on crime and he slipped into that mode when asked a question that combined race, economics and crime.

This is a ridiculous statement.

The opposite interpretation could be true, you know. "This is an emotional issue, that troubles me deeply, justice is not objective ENOUGH."
You are aware that that is a significant portion of the problem are you not?
I don't think he was able to give an adequate answer. Probably has a lot to do with the fact that he isn't a lawyer. Answering that question fully requires access to a lot of data.

There are people who think that Edwards' lame healthcare plan that only addresses children indicates his "hostility" toward people with disabilities. He clearly "agrees" with Sutton (that ADA should be reversed) since he didn't stand up against him.

Do you see yet how ridiculous these inferences can get?

[michaud]

57. good

this government needs to be more family oriented......and i think Dean's idea is good.

[gully]

4. I'll have a better idea of what was meant...

when I see the quote in context. I notice they pulled our a partial sentence.

[DuctapeFatwa]

5. Most affluent voting elite recognize the need to contain undesirables

They cannot allow their desire to appear politically correct embracers of diversity to create a dangerous climate of leniency among low wage earners and ignore the unfortunate but solid realities of the effects of ethnic imbalance on property values.

[Cocoa]

7. vicious, but possibly true

depending on the context, like the person said above. I'd like to hear the wording of the question, maybe the questioner was literally crying, maybe the questioner claimed that all black prisoners were innocent and should be set free.

I don't make a lot of predictions, but I'll make one now that Dean will end up apologizing for the way he worded his answer.

[AP]

11. I hope you're trying to be funny.

But, you're right, that's exactly the message Dean is sending. And I'm not impressed that he's willing to appeal to those very base emotions.

Dean should know that that's NOT how Clinton talked about race.

[DuctapeFatwa]

15. No, that is just reality. Neither funny, nor pleasant, just the way it is

And the likelihood of a political solution dwindles daily.

[Demobrat]

8. Oh oh. There goes the "too liberal to get elected" argument.

He's a closet conservative! Yeah,that's the ticket! Actually, I wonder what he meant, too, but I'm sure somebody will ask him in short order. Probably many, many somebodies, so I won't venture a guess.

[Cocoa]

9. I'll guess two of the somebodies

Al Sharpton and Carol Braun.

[Loyal]

12. ouch

:shrug:

[goodhue]

13. consistent

The sentiment is consistent with his longstanding assertion that he is no bleeding-heart but rather a rational pragmatic. It is a false dichotomy of course, and it is his penchant for this kinda divisive belittlement that turns many potential supporters such as myself off. To my mind he comes off as a heartless automaton with no vision. But it worked for McCain and plays well with the media. I prefer a populist visionary.

[AP]

14. Why is he a heartless automaton when it comes to talking about high in-

carcerartion rates for blacks, but then his idea of bridging the racial devide in America is by having a conversation among white people about how to address your unconscious feelings?

I'd rather he had some feelings about the application of the laws which result in blacks going to prison and let people like Rush, who bought more pills per day than many dealers, and Noelle Bush who smoked crack while in rehab, spend no time at all in jail, if they're even charged. And I wish he weren't so touchy-feely when it came to talking to white people about race.

[LuminousX]

16. Anyone who attempts to explain what it means

Anyone who attempts to explain what it means is only speculating. It is a less than substantive statement but the remarks surrounding it seem to put it in context.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

17. Maybe - for once - Dean meant what he said.

Hey, anything's possible. Maybe it meant just what it sounds like it means.

[unfrigginreal]

18. He's exactly right!

The way I read it is that we can't give a free pass to criminals but that we have to look at sentencing injustices due to racism and archaic drug abuse laws.

[DuctapeFatwa]

19. I don't think there would be a problem with just looking at them

But he (and any other candidate who wants to maintain his affluent white support base, let alone large contributors) must be very careful to avoid any suggestion that upper middle class white kids who make some bad choices in the course of the good judgment learning curve be put behind bars, or making any changes that would increase the number of young black men who are still at large.

[unfrigginreal]

20. "looking at" them was my terminology, not the Governors.

If you read the article from the Post, it suggests that he plans to be proactive in attacking the injustices. From the article:

Dean warned that "we can't get all weepy and liberal about this," but promised to treat substance abuse as a medical issue, rather than a "criminal problem," and to fight racism in sentencing.

[DuctapeFatwa]

23. A few strongly worded statements should do the trick

People don't like to be reminded of some of the more unpleasant costs of maintaining a society based on a small elite and a vast underclass.

It is very fashionable to appear politically correct, an embracer of diversity with a deep concern about social injustice.

Almost any night, you can see the sincere concern on the faces of supporters of more than one Democratic candidate as they accept another glass of fine Chablis from a beige hand and note with pleasure the large number of fine automobiles denoting a very good attendance at the event there in the gated community.

[unfrigginreal]

25. So, you don't argue with what he's saying...

you just don't think he mean's it.

[DuctapeFatwa]

31. I think he means that he wants the support of affluent white voters

I believe he sincerely wants their support.

[DemDogs]

22. "He is exactly wrong" and so are you, on this.

There are two things happening here.

One is Dean himself, both the way he constantly misspeaks about important issues (and then NEVER admits he is wrong) and the way he completely fails to understand racial issues.

Two are Dean's supporters, who can turn "Don't get 'weepy and liberal'" to mean "we have to look at sentencing injustices." Sometimes your candidate is going to say something stupid and when he does you just have to admit its stupid instead of finding some excuse why what he said was all right.

This is not all right. He does not understand structural poverty and its disproportionate effect on African-Americans. He does not mention disparate sentencing. He assumes that African-American inmates (necessarily as opposed to other inmates) have substance abuse problems. And he directly says that concern about these issues is "weepy and liberal" by which he clearly means bad. If liberal is bad to Howard Dean, a lot of his supporters need to hear him say that instead of his reciting Wellstone's line (which Wellstone, unlike Dean, earned) about being from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party.

[unfrigginreal]

24. Hogwash...you twist better than Chubby Checker.

Two are Dean's supporters, who can turn "Don't get 'weepy and liberal'" to mean "we have to look at sentencing injustices." Sometimes your candidate is going to say something stupid and when he does you just have to admit its stupid instead of finding some excuse why what he said was all right.

What part of "and to fight racism in sentencing" do you not understand?

[DemDogs]

29. "Weepy and liberal"? He's bashing us.

Fine. You're right there.
But you still don't address what is the fundamental problem here -- "Weepy and liberal"? Who's he talking about? Us, that's who. Real Democrats, that's who.

[no name no slogan]

92. You nailed it here

I'm not so bothered by the "weepy liberal" quote as I am by his complete lack of understanding about institutionalized racism in this country.

For some reason, Dr. Dean assumes that there are more blacks in jail because they're drug addicts. He doesn't even question the fact that our justice system is heavily stacked against blacks of all means.

He doesn't even seem to consider that the justice system, as it exists in most of this country, DOES NOT WORK for racial minorities and the poor. You get the worst defense lawyers. You don't have the money to fight against the deep pockets of the state. You oftentimes take the plea bargain, EVEN IF YOU'RE INNOCENT, because you'll be out in a couple of years, and you could get life if you have to go to trial.

It's not just about sentencing disparities, it's also about the profiling done by police departments that targets blacks, latinos, and poor people of all races and creeds. I should know-- my wife got "profiled" for driving a beater car in an affluent neighborhood-- in "liberal" MINNESOTA, no less!.

I highly doubt the good doctor, being a rich white guy, has been pulled over for driving around a few blocks from his house because he failed to come to a complete stop while driving his rusted 1987 Buick Century. I also highly doubt his spouse or any of his children have had to worry about that, either.

I also highly doubt many of his supporters of more than modest means (i.e., almost anyone who can afford a computer and internet connection) have ANY CLUE about how effed-up our justice system is, and what it's like to be a minority in it. What do they care? They'll just slap another "Dean for America" bumpersticker on the back of the Audi and head to the next MeetUp at Applebee's.

His whole remark reminds me of the white guy who likes to say "I'm not racist, I have two black friends!". If you're so damn worried about how many black friends you have, you're probably a racist too. And I highly doubt you would know a damn thing about how hard it is for poor people to get justice in this country.

It's really sad, because at one point Dean was my first choice. But the more he says (and the more about his past record comes to light), the more my doubts grow. :(

[Pez]

104. right-o; and my comments...

most minorities in jail for drug related charges aren't "addicts"; they were arrested for having a joint or something-- stopped because of racial profiling, then arrested for having a miniscule amount of pot. if you stopped random waspy brats on the upper-west side on a friday night at least half of them could be arrested for having the same amount of pot, coke, pills, whatever (trust me; it's true)... but they don't get stopped in the first place, so they don't get arrested.

looking at the problem of a disproportionate number of minorities being incarcerated for drug-related charges and coming to the conclusion that the cause is a higher number of minorities use drugs ignores the fact that profiling/racism is the cause for the imbalance. if you don't stop the white kids, there aren't going to be any white kids in jail.

[weepy_and_liberal]

105. Look - there's no need to get

all weepy and liberal about this.

[Pez]

107. oh, ~i'll~ give you something to get all weepy and liberal about!@#~

:spank:

[JohnKleeb]

108. lol

[no name no slogan]

113. Welcome!

Your comments are spot-on. My wife was a baker at the time, and was coming home from work at 1:00 PM on a weekday. She was dressed in "work clothes" (t-shirt and jeans full of flour) and had a baseball cap on her head. She was coming home from work, driving around a parkway next to a lake, in a well-to-do neighborhood. She was pulled over by TWO cops because she rolled partway through a stopsign where there was no other traffic.

Our house is in a neighborhood that has become newly gentrified over the last few years, but where it was still possible six years ago for people of a lower middle-class/working-class income to afford a sixty-year-old house.

After my wife got pulled over the cop looked at her license and said "you live WHERE?" when he realized we lived in a very good inner-city neighborhood (i.e., predominately white, middle- to upper-class, high homeownership rate, etc.). He and the other cop spent the rest of the stop warning her about stop signs, and telling her to "drive safely". I'm quite sure if she would have lived a few blocks north in a "bad neighborhood" they would have searched the vehicle (and found nothing, BTW).

It is truly suprising how so many Democratic activists have completely neglected the fact that our justice system is unfair. This is a MAJOR issue for most of non-white America, but most of your "electable" Democrats don't seem to give a rat's ass.

I think that speaks volumes to non-whites, and why they have voted Democratic in ever-dwindling numbers over the years.

[w4rma]

114. Part of the quote: "...and to fight racism in sentencing."

Obviously, Dean *does* understand that there is a problem with racism.

[Sean Reynolds]

21. Uh so we shouldn't get all weepy and liberal on it.

We've got to face the problem at hand. At least that is what I got from the quote.

[KaraokeKarlton]

26. What did Kerry mean when he said "Get over it."?

n/t

[ModerateMiddle]

30. I'm pretty sure he meant

"Get over it" and I wasn't very happy about that statement at all.

But, what on earth has this question to do with the quote I asked about?

[KaraokeKarlton]

53. It has everything to do with the quote you asked about.

Just as Kerry was trying to say that being upset about what has happened in the past isn't productive. Changing how things work to fix the problem is, however, productive.

Keep in mind that Dean is a doctor. His profession prior to his entrance in politics required him to be able to tell people things they might not want to hear, but need to know. You need to take that into consideration when you try to analyze something he says that you find to be a bit "sterile". It's just his style. It's also what makes him exactly what our country needs right now. We need someone who can fix the problems and tell us what we need to know, even if we don't like hearing it. Dean will do that. He's also great at fixing messes.

[TheDonkey]

99. OK, Dean slams "liberal" and all you can is try to slime Kerry?

I was very upset about Kerry's statement as well as the "crying over our teacups" line or something to that effect.

I emailed his campaign and voiced my disapproval.

But I see you are such a Deanie fanatic you can't even come up with a coherent response other than sliming his oponents.

[KaraokeKarlton]

116. On the contrary...

I suggest you read the other post I made that explains exactly why I brought Kerry's comment up. You see, the most prolific Dean critics on this forum are Kerry supporters. Dean's comment about the death penalty was no different than Kerry's comment about "getting over" the 2000 election. That was the point I made. You see, sometimes it's just important to remind those who criticize hypocritically that this is what they are doing.

[w4rma]

27. It means he's trying to connect with conservatives while

pushing something that conservatives aren't prone to liking: treating substance abuse as a medical issue instead of a "criminal problem" and to fight against too lengthy sentences imposed on minorities.

He's doing exactly what Bush* did, but the opposite: He's speaking like a conservative while pushing reforms they aren't usually prone to liking. :thumbsup:

C'mon guys. The conservatives are supposed to be the easily propagandized ones, not us. Listen to the *meat* and ignore the rhetoric.

[AP]

32. Which I'm sure the Howard University students really appreciated.

[w4rma]

42. Dean says pretty much the same things no matter what group he's speaking

directly to. That's my observation.

[AP]

54. Yeah, he should be saying something different and say it to black & white

audiences.

[cindyw]

111. Will Dean have a southern strategy too?

Are you suggesting that it is okay to appeal to people's prejudice?

[Larkspur]

28. It would have been more professional if the reporter had quoted or the

editor published the entire Dean quote and the kids question he was answering.

The context that this Dean statement is written is out of sync with his speech and previous statements on race. This is the reporter's or editor's fault, not Dean's. So I can not honestly answer your question.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

34. PROfessional does not mean PRO-Dean

lol

[DemDogs]

56. Take responsibility, Dean.

You wrote: "This is the reporter's or editor's fault, not Dean's."

Is anything Dean's fault?

He said the words. He is responsible for them. Remember what he said about Bush's 16 words: you have to take responsibility for your words. Dean's were dumb words and if they revealed something about the way he really thinks, they were scary, and if they did not reflect how he thinks, then he is not really the straight talking guy you all keep saying he is.

A couple of Dean supporters have tried to suggest ways that "weepy and liberal" could be construed, but the excuses are just that, excuses and weak ones. One even suggested (ha, ha, ha) that he was courting the conservative vote (at Howard University?)-- and like Dean is going to win conservative votes.

[LWolf]

33. I'm not sure what Dean meant when he made the statement.

I'm sure Dean supporters have a spin, and so do others.

My take: When I hear it, I hear a slam against liberals. That liberals are "weepy," and that there is something "wrong" with being a liberal. That we shouldn't "get all liberal." So I am offended by the remark, since I consider myself a liberal.

Whether that's what Dean "meant" is another thing. I do think it was a very unfortunate choice of words, regardless.

[AP]

35. It's also a slam on the issue. It's saying that if you look at it...

...rationally, high incarceration rates for blacks are a reflection of reality.

[JohnKleeb]

36. Thats kind of my point on it too wolf

Maybe he had a good point in what he meant but "weepy and liberal" I think honest to god that was a bad choice of words.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. It reveals Dean's true feelings about our liberal values.

[diamondsoul]

38. My thoughts exactly, and the more

he says stupid crap like this the closer he gets to sending me out of the party if he gets the nomination. Makes me sick to say that, having been a Dem as long as I can remember, but when this fool is asking for my vote and blithely tosses out an insult like that...well...

[JohnKleeb]

39. I know what you and fean mean

I am trying to be objective honest to god, but "weepy and liberal" about drug treatment, liberal= open minded and weepy= means to mourn. I wont go on the offensive here but I must say I am flustered as you all are.

[indigo32]

41. I gotta be honest

This statement is making me seriously reassess Dean. I have been fully behind the man... and believe me I read the whole article. I just don't think I can let this one pass. It definitely comes across as a slam against liberals (which I am)... and a very careless thing to say to a room full of people at Howard University.

[w4rma]

43. Separate the substance from the rhetoric

Supposedly it is the conservatives who are easily propagandized. C'mon.

…
Another student wondered what Dean might do to lessen the number of African Americans in prison. Dean warned that "we can't get all weepy and liberal about this," but promised to treat substance abuse as a medical issue, rather than a "criminal problem," and to fight racism in sentencing.
…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41684-2003Oct3.html

Rhetoric:
"we can't get all weepy and liberal about this,"

Substance:
…promised to treat substance abuse as a medical issue, rather than a "criminal problem," and to fight racism in sentencing.

Note, it is my observation that Dean says basically the same things no matter what group he's speaking directly to.

[indigo32]

44. Obviously I'm capable of separating the substance from the rhetoric

But the rhetoric was included and I'm not sure I like it.

As for my beiong "easily propagandized"... hey I happen to think I've put up with a hell of alot here... you and I read the same board right?
I've never maintained Dean was perfect...and I still don't think he's the monster he's made out to be... but I will be reassessing my position.

BTW I happen to agree with you Dean says the same thing wherever he is... but I haven't heard this one before... and he should have thought before he spoke.

[w4rma]

46. I'm sorry.

I was over the top on that "easily propagandized" remark. But, I am trying to make the point that the *substance* associated with the remark is most important. I like the substance, but many folks on this thread I believe are intentionally trying to mischaracterize that substance.

Frankly, I agree that Dean was very slightly over the top with his "and liberal" remark. I think I know what he was trying to get at and I think that the "weepy" part will work in the long term.

Anyway, I expect he'll probably fine tune that statement. But, I also expect more off the cuff remarks to come out and I'd hope that folks will work to overlook that so that we won't be forced to have overly scripted and overly cautious candidates, also.

[blm]

59. What do you expect when the guy took a shot at Marian Wright Edelman

a few years back, and used the term "liberal" as a pejorative. Edelman, the head of the Children's Defense Fund got slammed by Dean to shore up his standing with Republicans in Vermont.

BTW....Edelman came out in support of Kerry last month.

[indigo32]

60. BLM

this is to say the very least...not helpful.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

61. It's not helpful to look at the facts?

[indigo32]

62. Perhaps

when you or she want to present a balanced picture with those "facts" you can come back and talk to me. Until then you do nothing but irritate Deans supporters and egg on the haters... BFD. I do not have to sit and debunk, discuss every piece of crap you choose to present about Dean...especially when you refuse to acknowledge the positive he has accomplished.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

65. Not complimentary of Dean, so you stick your fingers in your ears

and say "I can't hear you".

Well, there is certainly no arguing with that.

[indigo32]

67. Yeah thats exactly what I said

NOT.
BTW didn't this start with me saying I WAS reevaluating my support based on information I read? We'll see. You offer nothing but a biased opinion, that is why I'm not interested in discussing it with you.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

68. What you did say:

"when you or she want to present a balanced picture with those "facts" you can come back and talk to me."

The facts present their own picture of Dean. Is it 'balanced'? or tilted to the right?

[indigo32]

69. except that you leave out a number of other facts

which might indeed 'balance' it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

70. I know you consider me 'the enemy'

but I read above where you actually did take what Dean said to heart this time. The last thing I want to is subvert your honest assessment of what Dean said here, by painting you into a corner because you feel you have to oppose my argument.

If there are other facts that should be weighed, please place them on the balance for all to consider. You can't expect those on the other side of your argument to do that for you.

Peace.

[indigo32]

72. 'The Enemy' LOL

OK in the interest of honesty I'll admit you push my buttons...
I'm really more open minded than I come across with you. But frankly I find you a little obsessed. You are on EVERY anti-Dean thread and more. You say "I can't expect those on the other side of your arguement" to place other facts into play. This is true... but frankly you seem to be as good at ignoring those facts when presented with them as you feel I am when you present me with your "facts". So I guess maybe we're even there. Maybe we should turn our attention to beating GW. Frankly I've never trashed Kerry or any of the other candidates here. I won't have to be a hypocrite should I cast a vote for any of them. I'm wondering how you in good concience can vote for Dean.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

76. I'll be ready to turn my attention to beating BushCo

once we have a nominee. As far as my conscience and Dean, one of the reasons you find me pressing for answers on my concerns about Dean is because if the primary season doesn't go the way I want, I may have to answer those same questions when someone who IS a progressive but IS NOT a Democrat wants me to explain why they should go to the polls instead of going fishing on November 2, 2004. I know a lot of people who gave up on politics in general and the Democratic party in particular a long time ago. But most of them are too young to ever have had a chance to vote for a true, liberal Democrat for President. THAT is a choice that I think can energize a lot of people. The word will not be easy to get out -- the corporate media is not going to help -- but we can do it.

[indigo32]

77. Then TELL THEM

that he's talking about Universal healthcare... he obviously believes in it... even if he's not convinced he can get it passed right away and wants to work towards it.

Tell them that he wore a bullet proof vest when he went around the "progressive" state of VT to explain signing the civil unions bill.

Tell them about the land he set aside

Tell them about his efforts to address child abuse

Tell them that he listens

Tell them that he is raising money from true grass roots support, not not corps.

Tell them he's human.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

80. Those things ARE good.

But they are not 'answers' to the questions I've raised. You know what those questions are so I won't annoy you by repeating them here. (unless you want, in which case, I'd be happy to.)

Of course Dean would be a better President than Bush -- I am a Democrat so I believe any Democrat would be. But it is a sad fact that most of the people I know think there is no difference between the parties. I think the best contrast we can provide with someone from the RIGHT is someone from the LEFT -- not someone from the CENTER.

[indigo32]

82. And what of the questions they will ask about Kerry

he is admittedly further to the left than Dean, but has a few issue of his own...you know that. As far as answering your questions... the problem is that many of them are subjective or just simply stating facts that have to be taken at face value (you either stomach them or you don't eom). Is he waffling here? Well to you he obviously is and to many Dean supporters he isn't...Did he say something about raising SS age in 95 and has he changed his mind about it now? Why yes he did. You either can stomach that or not. He can't be made into something he isn't. See I consider myself a liberal... but I've supported Howard Dean for a number of reasons...a major one being the grass roots support he is generating. Many people who haven't voted before are being energized by his campaign. Another being that Civil Union bill and his interest in healthcare. I'm not saying that other candidates haven't got a good record on gay rights and healthcare... its just that Dean truly inspires me... and comes across as both honest and effective (to me... see it's a matter of perspective).

[Feanorcurufinwe]

87. Here we go again

I have the feeling you don't want to do this anymore than I, but it's like we can't help ourselves.

First off, ask any question about Kerry, that is what campaigns are all about. You won't find me saying that people shouldn't 'bash' Kerry, or attack him, or criticise those positions of his they disagree with. That is what debate is all about.

Second, the biggest issue I have with Dean's comment about raising the retirement age is the undisputed fact that he said, at the debate, "I have never favored Social Security retirement at the age of 70, nor do I favor one of 68." http://slate.msn.com/id/2086804
It's just not true. And the only defense I've heard is "Do you remember every position you held 8 years ago?" Well, yes, I do. Especially if it is an important issue to which I have given a lot of thought. The idea that Dean - a doctor turned professional politician - doesn't remember his positions from eight years ago -- seems incredible on the face of it, and if we are willing to suspend disbelief and accept it, still does not reflect favorably on him.

You say a major reason you have supported Dean is the grass roots support that he is generating. It is undeniable and it certainly is what attracted me to him in the beginning as well. But when a bandwagon goes by, I listen before I hop on.

[indigo32]

94. Yup

I've stated before I've no interest in doing opposition research on a member of my own party. Whether you are interested or not. You dig up your own stuff.

As far as Dean saying what he said in that debate... he retracted it the very next day I believe.

[weepy_and_liberal]

95. If he retracted it the next day - why did he say it in the first place

when the cameras were rolling? He didn't remember his own positions? It is just not credible.

ps, the old name was too hard to spell, lol

[indigo32]

96. How am I supposed to know why he said it in the first place?

????
I can speculate...so can you... whats the point?

[weepy_and_liberal]

100. It is a rhetorical question.

The point is, the reason he said it in the first place is obvious to anyone: he wanted to give the impression that he never supported raising the retirement age.


"I have never favored Social Security retirement at the age of 70, nor do I favor one of 68." http://slate.msn.com/id/2086804

What other possible reason could someone have for making that statement?

[indigo32]

101. sigh

this is pointless... you have a good evening.

[blm]

63. Why not? She's a prominent black leader and a liberal.

Isn't that the subject at hand? Did you think he'd be truly different now than he was back when he took a shot at Edelman?

[JaneQPublic]

66. Dean made this statement defending Bill Clinton...

...specifically, for his welfare-to-work initiatives, back in 1996.

And, by the way MWE IS a liberal. Simply calling someone a liberal isn't a perjorative use of the term -- unless you buy into the GOP hype that liberal is a dirty word. I don't happen to believe that it is.

Here's the complete quote from Dean:

Liberals like Marian Wright Edelman are wrong. The bill is strong on work, on time limits assistance, and it provides adequate protection for children."

[Feanorcurufinwe]

71. That doesn't sound like a slam against liberals?

[blm]

74. DEAN used it as a pejorative, which he did often.

No matter how you spin it, Dean is the one who bought into the GOP hype of that word, not me. I NEVER in my life used that term pejoratively, as I have been a proud liberal since I was a schoolgirl.

Clinton would NEVER use it in the way Dean did. Dean couldn't just be a centrist, he had to take his shots at the left, too.

>>>>>>>>
Dean kept his distance from his party's liberals during his governorship.

''He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements,'' said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats' liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee.

. . .

Dean trimmed spending or held down increases in areas held dear by the liberals. More than once, Dean went to battle over whether individual welfare benefits should rise under automatic cost of living adjustments. Liberals were particularly incensed when he tried that tactic on a program serving the blind, disabled and elderly, which he did several times.

. . .

[JaneQPublic]

78. And yet Dean has never rejected the "Liberal" label during the campaign

He usually says something like "If balancing a budget means I'm a liberal, then, yes, I'm a liberal." How strange, considering he supposedly slings around the word to smear his political adversaries.

To identify someone as a "liberal" like Dean did is no more of a slam than calling you a "Kerry supporter." And for you to profess inside knowledge as to Dean's intentions in the use of the word only reveals how desperate the pro-Kerry/Anti-Dean people have become.

You say Dean "often" used "liberal" as a perjorative. Okay, let's see the quotes. Give us the links.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JaneQPublic]

85. To be accurate, he's a social liberal and a fiscal conservative.

Remember, the objective of this campaign is to win the election and return the country to peace and prosperity -- not to win the most points in the "Who is the Farthest Left?" game.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

89. Wanting to cut Medicare is 'socially liberal'?

Trying to permanently remove funding for Vermont's Campaign Finance fund is 'socially liberal'?

Siding with factory farms against family farms is 'socially liberal'?

Underfunding the public defenders office is 'socially liberal'?

Considering a coal-fired power plant for Vermont is 'socially liberal'?

[blm]

84. That's not what he did in Vt. though, is it?

The liberals there said he often took shots at them while aligning with the Republicans. Why do you think you know more than they do?

Further, you should examine your own claim. I'll be the first to admit that Dean NOW sometimes claims the word "liberal" for himself....when he shifted his campaign tactic to attract the left early this year, and lately he has been running back to the centrist label.

I believe Ted Rall had an enlightening article a couple months back that made the same observations.

[JaneQPublic]

86. Actually, the quote I saw

had Dean saying while VT governor, something to the effect of "there are nuts on the right, nuts on the left, and there's Dean in the middle."

And according to most of the country, what passes as a centrist in Vermont is left of center everywhere else.

In Dean's own words:

"I can't stand extremes," Dean said in a recent interview. "Most of the time, people who take extreme positions, either on the left or the right, are willing to sacrifice potential for people they claim to represent in service to their ideology."
http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22134029.html

I'll say it again: the objective of this campaign is to win the election and return the country to peace and prosperity, not to win the "Who's the Biggest Lefty?" game.

[blm]

97. No, just don't try to pretend us real lefties should be impressed

because of what he says NOW. I believe the scorn Dean showed to liberals as governor is the attitude that pushed the Democrats further right.

>>>>>>>>
Dean kept his distance from his party's liberals during his governorship.

''He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements,'' said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats' liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee.
. . .

[JaneQPublic]

106. Are you real lefties impressed with Kerry's vote for Bush's Iraq War?

Are you impressed with Kerry's vote to salvage parts of Bush's tax cut, because they might be politically expedient?

Are you real lefties impressed with the way Kerry defends NAFTA and ridicules Dean and Kucinich for wanting to introduce labor and environmental standards?

[cindyw]

110. Now your just making things up or not really listening

I suggest you read up on the Bush tax cuts. When the Congress started fighting over it, they were making decisions over what to do with a surplus. The middle class was baring their burden well. Now that we are in economic downfall, then cuts will help. Dean is right to say that in effect the middle class has had the cuts balanced out by higher local taxes and cuts in social programs, but raising taxes on the upper class will fix that problem and give them the cuts the Democrats supported having in the bill. I'm married with children and I sure could use the help while the new pres is fixing the economy.

Kerry has always believed in fair trade and has always been a champion of high labor and environmental standards. Kerry is arguing that we cannot be protectionist, instead we have to be pragmatic. Know our ideals and then accomplish them a step at a time, instead of fighting for all or nothing and always getting nothing. This is not the same as voting with Repubs and hoping for the best. This is about leadership. It is misrepresentation of his positions to say he is ridiculing Dean and Kucinich. Now Lieberman was ridiculing to say that we would have a Dean depression. It's fun to make things up to win your point, but it doesn't make you right.

[JaneQPublic]

122. You need to get your hands on some debate transcripts

The latest one, the CNBC Wall Street Journal one, would be a good place to find Kerry's remarks deriding Dean for wanting to eliminating Bush's tax "cut" in its entirety and for wanting to impose labor and environmental standards on trade agreements.

[cindyw]

132. To disagree is not to ridicule or make fun off.

It's not like he said, "Dean you are such an idiot..your plan will never work".

Kerry has a different opinion on what to do in this economic disaster. I for one would like some extra help while we fix this problem created by Bush's tax cuts for the rich. I suggest you read his words on this.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/restoring_jobs.html

It is also not accurate to say that Kerry does not want to "impose labor and environmental standards on trade agreements."

"I don't support the Free Trade Agreement of America nor the Central American Free Trade Agreement as it is today because they do desperately need to have increased labor standards, environment standards, to bring other countries up. You can't have trade be a rush to the bottom, and you can't leave other nations with a one-way street, and you can't abuse people the way it has been. It would be wonderful to have a president who could find the rest of the countries in this hemisphere. And I will do that." Source: Democratic Primary Debate, Albuquerque New Mexico Sep 4, 2003

KERRY: Yes, it is fair, because Gov. Dean has said very specifically that we should not trade with countries until they have labor and environment standards that are equal to the US. That means we would trade with no countries. It is a policy for shutting the door. It's either a policy for shutting the door, if you believe it, or it's a policy of just telling people what they want to hear." Source: Debate at Pace University in Lower Manhattan Sep 25, 2003

[blm]

112. HAHAH...Kerry helped craft the Kyoto Accord

over a 10 year period and YOU want to throw your lot in with the guy who just coopted populist rhetoric for the last nine months.

YOU think DEAN could lecture KERRY on labor and environmental standards? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

[JaneQPublic]

118. Dean ordered emission controls in VT more stringent than Kyoto

Check out this Alternet story:

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16592

Dean's Vermont "has one of the most progressive environmental programmes in America" according to the London Times. As former Vermont radio and television talk show host Jeff Kaufman points out, "During his decade in office, Governor Dean helped protect more land from development than all previous governors combined; ... he administered a 'best practices' agriculture plan that preserves land and water quality; he helped form the nation's first statewide energy efficiency utility (preventing more than one million tons of greenhouse gas emissions since 2000); and he championed a commuter rail system to lower traffic congestion and pollution while diminishing urban sprawl (in its last report on sprawl, the Sierra Club ranked Vermont as the second best state in America for land use planning)." Vermont also followed California's lead in establishing regulations on greenhouse gas emissions that go beyond standards set in the Kyoto Protocol. According to the New York Times, Dean "is calling for the auto industry to build cars that get 40 miles per gallon by 2015 and for 20 percent of the nation's electricity to come from renewable sources by 2020.

[blm]

119. In VERMONT, where even the GOPers have fair enviro creds.

They had strong environmental protection laws before Dean even took office and he had a progressive Dem leaning legislature throughout his tenure. Not many govs. are handed those cards.

[JaneQPublic]

121. And Kerry's faced a lot of pressure sticking to his liberal guns in Mass.

...the churning caldron of right-wing activity that it is. It's a wonder he was even able to stand up to all that GOP competition in his last election.

Oh, that's right. He didn't have any GOP competition in his last election!

[cindyw]

125. Kerry cannot be challenged on his environmental record

You are grasping at straws. Oh Oh, try this one,.......who's more religious God or Jesus. Kerry has a long record on this environment, civil rights, education, etc. Dean may try match him there with his own record, but could certainly not pass him.

[blm]

127. because he beat out the most popular GOPr in Mass.

back in 96.

Mass. has had Republican governors for the last 15 years.

Kerry also MAINTAINED A STRONG LIBERAL RECORD even while other DLC members like HOWIE Dean were pushing the Democratic party further right through 2002.

[JaneQPublic]

131. The DLC directory lists Kerry, but not Dean

Here's the link to the search page of the DLC membership directory:

http://www.ndol.org/new_dem_dir.cfm

Run a check on Kerry, and you'll find him there. Run a check on Dean, and you'll get "no record found."

[cindyw]

115. And Iraq

Somehow my comment on the Iraq resolution was left out. I am just as comfortable with Kerry's position on the Iraq war as you should be because at the time of the vote it was the same as Dean's. War only if the threat is imminent. It's real easy to say you would not have voted for something when you didn't have a vote, but Dean rhetoric gives him away. Bush is responsible for starting that war. Do we blame rape victims because they went on a date with their attacker and wore a low cut blouse? No. We blame the attacker.

[JaneQPublic]

120. Yeah, Kerry is just a victim. He was duped by sneaky Smirk...

...into voting for that Iraq War resolution.

Funny, he how last spring Kerry was taking credit for voting for the war when things were going good, but now that things have turned crappy over there, he's blasting Bush for going to war based on bad intelligence -- the same intelligence that supposedly convinced Kerry to vote for the war in the first place.

Oh right, this guy has the intestinal fortitude to be president.

[cindyw]

123. Quote where Kerry takes credit for supporting Bush

And you ignored what I said. Was Dean duped too, because he said the same things as Kerry? Be consistent here and don't fall on what Dean says now about what he thought then.

[JaneQPublic]

128. Quote where Dean says the same things as Kerry.

By "supporting Bush" I was referring to Kerry's vote in support of Bush's Iraq War Resolution. Kerry does still defend it as being the right thing to do, doesn't he?

[Pez]

129. not like it hasn't been posted a million times but...

...here's a fresh thread!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=55118

[cindyw]

130. Kerry says his vote was right not based on whether we should have gone to

War, but that he made the best decision he could at the time. You are forgetting that that vote was before we got inspectors in. I think you would be hard pressed to find proof that Kerry supported suspending the inspections. In fact he said that we should not rush to war. See the link in the post by Pez

[Meshuga]

124. Where was Dean during the war protests?

Isn't he so against the war?

[Pez]

126. he was not "duped"

he can think for himself, and doesn't blindly follow republican agendas. the intelligence in question we now know to be inaccurate, but if you remember at the time that wasn't the case. we, dean, etc did not have access to the information, so it's useless to say we would have known better. kerry voted for INSPECTIONS and allied support, not war-- obviously he wanted to confirm the intelligence, so it's not like he was salivating over the thought of carpetbombing iraq. it was quite possible, if the inspections were allowed to take place (which they weren't before) we WOULDN'T have to go to war. and going through the u.n., if it was necessary, we'd have our allies on our side-- the only way we were supposed to be at war was if iraq DID have wmd.

here is a little snippet from kerry's speech (for the eightbillionth time):

"...According to the CIA's report, all US intelligence experts agree that Iraq is seeking nuclear weapons.... Let me be clear: I am voting to give this authority to the President for one reason and one reason only: to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction if we cannot accomplish that objective through new tough weapons inspections. In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days - to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out "tough, immediate" inspections requirements and to "act with our allies at our side" if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force.....If he fails to do so, I will be the first to speak out. If we do go to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so in concert with others in the international community. "

some disagreed on the war outright; others, like byrd and graham, for diplomatic reasons. you can disagree with his vote, but you can't say, because of information that has come to light recently, that he should have known better a year ago or was tricked into voting for bush's war. it's clear from his statements he was not voting for war, rather to give our demands on iraq legitimacy and force, and possibly avert war after inspections were allowed to resume if nothing was found.

[bread_and_roses]

45. Ductapefatwa and Demdogs

between them have covered what I think about this statement. I will be blunt: to my ear, Dean's statements are a perfect illustration of "institutional racism" at work in an individual. It is of a vein with his EVER (and I don't care how long ago) supporting raising the retirement age. Does this man know ANYTHING about what it might be like to be either non-white or non-privledged in this society?

[w4rma]

47. Bill Clinton supported raising the retirement age at that time also.

If you are not hypocritical in your statements, you'll apply those statements to Bill Clinton also.

If you don't think you can apply them to Bill Clinton, then you're hypocritical in applying them to Howard Dean.

[bread_and_roses]

48. We are not discussing Bill Clinton but

just for the record, I am no fan of Clinton, although in retrospect having a moderate Republican like Clinton in office doesn't look so bad.

[diamondsoul]

49. Thank you for this post.

No sarcasm or insult, but you've confirmed for me that Dean IS very similar to Clinton, in both style and positions. That explains my discomfort with Dean from the start as I rarely agreed with Clinton.

[w4rma]

51. Here are Dean's stated positions. Dean is a centrist, however,

it is my observation that Gov. Dean disagrees with many of the positions that he and Bill Clinton held ~7 years ago. I see Dean as being closer to Gore than Clinton.

Extremely massive information dump on Gov. Howard Dean, M.D. (v2.0)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=41214

[weepy_and_liberal]

102. Exactly.

Clinton was an effective politician, but I always thought the 'Slick Willie' moniker was well-earned. Watching him as President and since has done nothing to dispell that. Yes, he did good, yes he was a million times better than any Republican, yes he was an effective leader for 'our side', yes I'm sure glad he WAS on our side. And although it took a lot of convincing, I do believe Clinton's heart is in the right place. But as far as being someone whose integrity I admire, or whose bold leadership I find inspiring, or whose championship of progressive causes wins my loyalty... Clinton never convinced me of those things. If Dean makes it to the nomination, I expect the same of Dean, and I hope his heart is in the right place and I hope I am wrong about his integrity and his values.

[DemBones DemBones]

50. Bill Clinton wasn't talking about raising the retirement age in

June 2003 (and denying it in early August) but Dean was.

It's weird that you think Dean is going to "fine-tune" his message about not being "all weepy and liberal." Maybe next he'll say liberals are crybabies.

:shrug: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Duder]

52. It means...

'As the Howard University students started arriving, it was exciting to talk to them and hear why they, as students, supported Governor Dean. About 15 members of the media showed up and interviewed several students. (Look for articles in the New York Times, Washington Times, Washington Post, and best of all, "The Daily Show." )

Once Governor Dean got there, he was introduced by a law school student from Howard named Jennifer Walker, who presented him with a hat that said "Howard", which he IMMEDIATELY put on, and a Howard University jacket. He gave his speech, then started taking questions from students. With such a diverse crowd, and excellent questions from students about issues from if he would choose an African-American running mate for Vice President, to the current situation in Iraq, it was truly an exciting moment for Generation Dean.' Arianne Holm

From Howard, Jesse Jackson Jr. accompanied Dean to South Carolina, as part of the 'Raise the Roots Tour'. No one seems to be weepy and crying in their teacups -



http://www.gendeanblog.com/archives/cat_raise_the_roots_tour.php

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bread_and_roses]

64. Perhaps you could elaborate?

Exactly what "old-fashoned liberalism" is America tired of? I can't remember seeing much in the way of Progressive (a term I prefer) policies for lo these many years for people to have had a chance to be tired of.

[JohnKleeb]

83. ken "old fashion liberalism"

I hear that and I think of I dunno FDR perhaps, that man as they fondly called him is a major part of my democrat heritage and my grandparents voting democrat as did their parents, these people were the children of immigrants and already poor as it was during the depression, Mr. Roosevelt offered them a new deal. I will always be thankful to FDR. He will remain a hero.

[diamondsoul]

75. Ok, I'm going to try to be as inoffensive as possible

while I state my opinion on this comment-

What it says to ME is that Dean has NO respect for true liberals. That he's willing to use "liberal" as a slam just like the opposite side of the aisle. That he's really not interested in MY vote, which is fine because I'm not entirely sure, at this point, I could give it to him with a clear conscience. This was the final straw for me I think.

He talked a good game for a while, and then essentially slapped me and any other proud liberal in the face. It's just as offensive to me as the time a "friend" of my spouse came to my home and referred to an African-American comedian as a "n*gger" in front of my bi-racial son. He left my home in a hurry and was not allowed to cross the threshold again. The inference is that liberals are weak, soft, unable to make tough choices, and it's BS.

I'm upset and honestly livid because now I don't know what I will do if Dean gets the nomination. I cannot and will not cast a ballot for him. I've had it up to my eyeballs with his "mis-speaking" BS. Worse I believe this was an accurate representation of his attitude towards me and others like me.

YES G-DAMMIT, I AM A PROUD "BLEEDING HEART LIBERAL" AND POLLYANNA! DR DEAN, YOU GO ROT FOR THAT SLUR AGAINST ME! YOU made it personal with that single statement. Now the gloves are off.

[clar]

79. LOL

You've made it clear for months that you loathe HD. We get it. We get it. It's clear you never intended to vote for him if he's the nom. And comparing Dean to your erstwhile friend who used the N word is, like so many of your posts, way over the top. You should try and reign in the hysteria.

[diamondsoul]

88. Uh, Clar, maybe you have me confused with someone else?

I have actively SOUGHT reasons to allay my concerns about Dean. I haven't found any. That's ME. I don't expect nor ask you to agree, but I won't be silent about my viewa.

I didn't trust him from the start, but dammit-all, I wanted to. I tried. This just pushed me too far. Attack me if it makes you feel better, but I'm entitled to speak my mind, and on this comment...well it isn't pleasant.

Yes, I strongly dislike Howard Dean. I also defend him against unfounded or ridiculous attacks and I will continue to do so. It's not hysteria, Clar. It's reality. I'm a "weepy liberal". Would you like it if he said something about gullible Democrats? Because right now I feel as if he's played liberals for months.

Every time Dean earned a few points of respect from me he promptly followed it with some idiotic remark that infuriated me. Well dammit, people keep saying Kucinich needs a lesson in presentation, and I submit so could Howard Dean.

I have NEVER before suggested I would not vote for Dean! I was firmly in the ABB camp, and even signed the petition. Now, I'm second guessing that. The more he insults ME personally YES the less I'm inclined to ever support him. Sue me, I believe in and support honesty.

[weepy_and_liberal]

90. I don't know what he meant but I cried when I heard it

[Kathy in Cambridge]

91. You're such a card, weepy_and_liberal

:eyes:

[TheDonkey]

98. Ridiculous, he should be ashamed and his supporters outraged

This is more of the true Dean coming out showing his conservative side. Not only conservative but mocking the left and progressives of the party.