Leon Panetta questions Dean's Medicare story

[Nicholas_J]

If Presidential hopeful Howard Dean backed a Republican plan to drastically curb the growth of Medicare spending in 1995, he was not on board with then-President Bill Clinton, Clinton’s former chief of staff said yesterday.

Leon Panetta, Clinton’s chief of staff from 1994 to 1997, said the Medicare plan Clinton signed into law in 1997 was separate and distinct from the deeper-cutting GOP plan Dean is on record as supporting in 1995.

A Dean spokesman said Dean was “philosophically” in line with Democrats such as Clinton, who agreed with GOP leaders about the need to curb Medicare growth in order to save the program from insolvency.

Panetta spoke in a telephone interview yesterday about the campaign dispute between Dean, the former Vermont governor, and rival Dick Gephardt, the former House Minority Leader.

http://www.theunionleader.com/Articles_show.html?article=27177

[papau]

1. RW Union Leader tries to move “philosophically in line” to 'lie'

1997 law was separate and distinct from the deeper-cutting GOP plan ...in 1995

So Clinton got us a better law - great

And both Dean and Clinton saw a need to slow medicare cost growth.

and Dean was never asked about details of 95 GOP plan - only said he supported cutting the growth in Medicare from 10% per year to 7% per year.

This is classic US Media (to say Right wing would be repeating myself) Gotch-ya when they have nothing - which is followed by two years of stories that demand you the reader admit it was a fair Gotch-ya. Logic is not taught in journalism - only how to please the right wing owners and editors.

[wtmusic]

3. Correction

Dean said he would support holding Medicare growth to between 7 and 10 percent. If it stayed at 10 percent that's zero cut.

Difference is in the details.

[Nicholas_J]

4. Dean did not say holding between seven and ten percent

He said reducing from ten to seven percent.


The Times Argus quoted Dean as saying, “I fully subscribe to the notion that we should reduce the Medicare growth rate from 7 to 10 percent.” According to a New York Times report, that was the amount the Domenici plan was proposing.


http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22242325.html

Spin spin spin


Reducing spending either seven, eight, nine OR ten percent IS reducing.

[wtmusic]

8. Please don't misquote

The quote in your own link says:

"I fully subscribe to the notion that we should reduce the Medicare growth rate from 10 percent to 7 percent."

Big difference. Reducing the rate from 7 to 10 percent would indicate a potential cut of 10 percent. Reducing the rate from 10 to 7 percent would indicate a cut of 3 percent. And, we are talking about reducing the rate of growth, not 'reducing spending'.

Difference is in the details.

[acerbic]

14. "Misquote", "misinterpret"...

When do we simply wear out the euphemisms because DU rules don't allow to use the proper and fully accurate noun for what "Nicholas_J" is constantly doing...? :eyes:

Yup, deliberately changing what one copies and pastes from an article linked to in the same post is just "misquoting"... "misquoting", "misquoting", "misquoting", "misquoting", "misquoting", "misquoting", "misquoting", "misquoting". :puke:

[Octafish]

15. Here's another source who agrees w/Dean's critics.

"The truth, however, is that as a conservative Democratic governor, Dean really did do what Gephardt says he did, and his shifting attempts to wiggle off that hook have made his conduct an issue in a Democratic race that grows more serious by the week."

Tom Oliphant, Boston Globe
September 30, 2003

SOURCE and LINKS:

http://www.dickgephardt2004.com/plugin/template/gephardt/44/2316

[genius]

42. Dean keeps having to backtrack on what he says

because even he doesn't keep track and he has no real platform, which is apparent from the inconsistencies.

[w4rma]

43. Genius is posting an unsubstantiated lie (n/t)

[acerbic]

44. Hey, it's against the DU rules to tell the truth about that!

You're sooooo deleted...

[w4rma]

45. borderline, but good point. I'll change my posts, anyway, though.

…
If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger. For example, if someone posts factually incorrect information, it is appropriate to say, "your facts are wrong," but it is not appropriate to say "you are a liar."
…
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#civility

I'm not calling *anyone* a liar or any other name. However, I can't read minds to know for an absolute fact that Genius is lying.

I'll change my statements to:
Genius is posting an unsubstantiated lie (n/t)

[genius]

46. I can't help it if the Dean people chooose to be uninformed.

Why is it that after every debate they catch him in inconsistencies?The press is on his side. If you have read any of postings after the debates, they are full of links to articles about how he got caught.

I'm used to this problem. People didn't want to see the truth about Bush after 9/11. The Dean people are very similar to the hard core Bush supporters. I wish they would start looking at the facts. But then they wouldn't be Dean supporters anymore.

[w4rma]

47. Genius is posting an unsubstantiated lie (n/t)

[genius]

48. Your repetitive. Although the truth is on my side,

I don't see the need to engage in repetitive games. Enjoy yourself.

[w4rma]

54. Genius is posting an unsubstantiated lie (n/t)

[deaniebopper]

61. Like what? Name one inconsistency

[sandnsea]

6. Supported more than that

"He applauded the efforts of Senate Budget Committee chairman Pete Domenici, R-Nev., who presented his own balanced budget plan last week… Dean also said he could defend Domenici's approach to reducing Medicare costs. He said he supported more managed care for Medicare recipients and requiring some Medicare recipients to pay a greater share of the cost of their medical services…
'I fully subscribe to the notion that we should reduce the Medicare growth rate from 10 percent to 7 percent, or less if possible,' Dean said.'" Times Argus '95

So while he is proposing this 'great' health care plan now, back then he thought reducing coverage to senior citizens was a good idea. He's not somebody to trust on health care.

[Cocoa]

32. I thought it was an excellent article

It doesn't seem slanted to me.

The newspaper isn't saying anything, it is reporting what Panetta is saying, and filling in with some pretty good research about the various bills and dollar amounts, and where various people were, and when.

And it gives a pretty thorough airing of the Dean camp's response.

[RogueTrooper]

2. Who cares

Also from the article...

He said he doubted Dean opposed Clinton’s plan when it came out.

“Gov. Dean only endorsed the Domenici plan only in so much as it slowed the rate of growth of Medicare but not every detail of the plan,” said Gardner.

He also said that although the Gingrich and Domenici plans had similar bottom lines, “the Gingrich plan proposed several structural changes which Gov. Dean strongly opposed, such as increased premiums, means testing and a lower reimbursement rate.”

[Nicholas_J]

5. The reduction

IS the issue.

The rest of the plans were just minor detail

[Kahuna]

7. Dean will lie about anybody and anything for votes... I predict..

Dean is finished. This race will become a race between Clark and Kerry. Let the best man win.

[wtmusic]

9. That's a wonderful prediction

with no basis in fact! Thank you!

BTW, are Kerry/Clark for or against the war today?

[DemDogs]

49. So far it's pretty accurate

I am not against Dean. But there is a basis in fact for this prediction: it has happened already.

"I never apologized to Bob Graham; I only apologized to John Edwards"
"I am the only candidate to talk about civil rights in front of white audiences"
"The Washington candidates who supported Bush's tax cuts"
"I thought about raising the age for SS but rejected it in 1995"

Anyone else want to contribute to the list of Dean misstatements?

And how many do we have to have before you acknowledge he has a problem with making a statement that is wrong. (I don't think, and I sure hope that it is not "lying" but he does say things that are wrong and when confronted he won't admit it.)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

65. I predict the biggest story of the campaign will not be Dean's rise

but his equally fast and dramatic fall.

[dorktv]

18. Has Clark registered as a Democrat yet?

[genius]

56. You understand him very well

I wish his supporters would figure out that he's worse than Nixon. They might also want to follow the money in his case. From what I've seen, that could also be his undoing. Nixon was a little smarter and more secretive than Dean.

[acerbic]

58. You are NOT rabid and delusional

I wish his supporters would figure out that he's worse than Nixon.

I repeat, "genius" is NOT rabid and delusional. So stop saying that. :-)

[Jim Sagle]

10. Panetta's a DLC insider. Fuck'm.

[Octafish]

16. So what. Panetta's a good man who's DONE a lot for the country.

What's Dean ever done? Besides TALK?

[dorktv]

19. Dean all Talk and No Action?

Like when he was signing Civil Unions into law? When he was getting all the kids under eighteen in Vermont covered by healthcare? When he was balencing the budget? Hmmm?

[Octafish]

51. Dean signed the civil union bills in a closed ceremony.

... and he wasn't the one who introduced the legislation, the Vermont legislature did.

More than 92 percent of children already were covered by healthcare when Dean took office.

Anybody could balance the budget of a state the size of Vermont during the Clinton boom years.

Besides, what I said was what has Dean done for his COUNTRY? He would be out of his depth, one might say, in Washington.

[dorktv]

67. Oh and so being a senator automatically means a person

knows how to handle the administration side of the checks and balences? And at least Dean SIGNED the law, even if he did not do so after a huge gay pride parade and massive media campaign. He understands that to have change sometimes a light touch is what is needed...not a bludgeoning.

[AP]

17. Just for the sake of accuracy, I don't think Panetta's a DLC'er

You have to be an elected official, right?

[w4rma]

20. Al From and Bruce Reed are not elected officials.

Chairman: Senator Evan Bayh (D-IN)
Vice Chair: Rep. Ellen Tauscher (D-CA)
Founder and Chief Executive Officer: Al From
President: Bruce Reed
Executive Director: Chuck Alston
Vice President and Political Director: Holly Page
http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=86&subid=85&contentid=893

[AP]

23. Management vs Members. Obviously, for mgt, it's a full time job...

...for members, don't you have to be an elected Dem?

[w4rma]

38. Are From and Reed DLC insiders? Yes, no ifs ands or buts.

Were they elected to be DLC insiders? No, no ifs ands or buts.

Therefore does one have to be elected to be a DLC insider? No, no ifs ands or buts.

[AP]

50. Is Panetta DCL management? No. Is he a member? No.

Why is he called a DLC insider?

Wasn't he a congressman once? Was hena DLC member then?

[Nicholas_J]

66. So was Dean

Up until last year.

[Cocoa]

31. but Dean is defending himself with DLC ideas

He's defending himself by associating himself with Clinton's 1997 law, which sounds pure DLC to me.

If anyone is being anti-DLC about this issue, it's Gephardt, who is in the DLC.

According to this story, Gep took the hardest line of anyone involved in this story, against Medicare cuts. And again according ot this story, he seems to be redeemed by the fact that the cuts in that 1997 law have since been undone.

And Dean's comments about Gephardt's "philosophy," about how Medicare would be insolvent by now if growth weren't cut, sound like the way you'd expect the DLC to respond to Gephardt.

[blm]

40. Dean was the ULTIMATE DLC insider for 11 years. Fuck'm.

.

[Larkspur]

60. If balancing budgets, getting the state out of a major deficit, ...

turning the worse bond rating into the best in New England, paying off a quarter of the state's debt, reducing taxes fairly, giving every child medical care, significantly reducing child abuse and domestic abuse against women, appointing more women into leadership positions, conserving thousands of acres of land from development, etc makes Dean a DLC insider, then that's the kind of DLC'er I want leading us.

Go Dean!

[Nicholas_J]

62. Good bond ratings

generally mean screwing the public so big business can profit.

Dean did NOT provide health care for ALL children in Vemront. It was the federal government that created kid care and since Vermont had 94 percent of its children covered before Dean came to office, raising it to 96 percent is NO miracle. Overall coverage of bothe children and adults FELL during Deans tenure as governor, Den attaining one of the highest levels of uninsured in a fifteen year period.

Deanconserved only ONE large area of land, and no one can discover the personal connections he has to this land due to the sealing of the records regarding this.

He increased the amount of toxic metals allowed and other toxic wastes allwed to be dumped into Vermont Rivers (25 million tons of heavy metals alone).

Dena did not pay of the states deficit. THe plan that accomplished this was set into place by his predecessor, Richard Snelling, and rolled back on the schedule set by Snelling's government. Dean had NOTHING to do with it.

After the roll back of the progressive tax increases, Dean had to start massive cuts to social programs.

The year that the rollbacks went into effect, the rate of unisured in Vermont was 8.6 percent. The year after Dean rolled back Snellings plan, the rate of unsured climbed from that alltime low, to its all time high 13 percent.

Dena did not reduce taxes fairly as the ITEP has stated, but Deans Vermont resulted in a regressive tax situation in which the poor paid a greater percentage of their income than any other group, the middle class the next greatest and the rich paid 35 percent less in taxes as a percentage of their income than any other group:

Fair is relative...

Yes Dean was very fair, to himself and the rich:

Vermont’s Tax Code: No Breaks for the Poor and Middle Class
When all Vermont taxes are totaled up, the study found that:

The richest Vermont taxpayers—with average incomes of $686,000—pay 9.7% of their income in Vermont state and local taxes before accounting for the tax savings from federal itemized deductions. After the federal offset, they pay only 7.1%.

Middle-income taxpayers in Vermont—those earning between $27,000 and $44,000—pay 9.8% of their income in Vermont state and local taxes before the federal deduction offset and 9.5% after the offset—much more than what the rich pay.


# Vermont families earning less than $16,000—the poorest fifth of Vermont non-elderly taxpayers—pay 10% of their income in Vermont state and local taxes, one and half times the share the wealthiest Vermonters pay.

“Vermont’s income tax is not progressive enough to offset the regressivity of its sales and excise taxes,” McIntyre said. “Taxes ought to be based on people’s ability to pay them, which means that the share of income paid in taxes should rise as income grows, not fall as is the case in Vermont.”

http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:fJRaEEEPn3gJ:www.itepnet.org/wp2000/vt%2520pr.pdf+Vermont+Taxation+regressive+Tax+institute&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Yet regardless of this FACT:

lets look at Deans own statements about increasing the taxes onn the rich in 2002, when deficits again were looming and Dean's budget recommendations were to make massive cuts o health services in Vermont:

In 1991, then-Gov. Richard Snelling, a Republican, and the Democratic Legislature imposed surcharges on upper-income Vermonters to dig the state out of a huge budget deficit. Those surcharges were temporary, and they were lifted after the shortfall was repaid.

The Progressives said their proposal was designed to mirror the surcharges adopted during that last budget crisis, but they have not proposed an expiration date for the new surcharges.

Dean reiterated his opposition to raising the income tax shortly after the Progressives unveiled their tax plan. Dean contends Vermont’s marginal income tax rate — that is, the top rate paid by those in the highest income brackets — already is too high.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41293.html

Fair tax cuts. Hardly.

It is time for Dean and his supporters to PROVE those assertions that they make about him instead of mouthing lies that come from his own campaign screed.

It is time for the truth about Deans.

[genius]

11. Great posting. Dean really is the enemy of Medicare.

So the elderly can be added to the long lists of groups (African Americans, Children, the disabled, etc.) getting the shaft if Dean gets into office. Even if everyone who supports him for the nomination votes for him in the general election, that's a landslide against him. As a lifelong Democrat who always votes Democrats, if Dean gets the nomination, I'll write in the candidate of my choice. I cannot vote for this guy. And I know a great many other Democrats (who always vote Democrat) who have come to the same conclusion.

[wtmusic]

12. Poor posting

'So the elderly can be added to the long lists of groups (African Americans, Children, the disabled, etc.) getting the shaft if Dean gets into office.' No basis whatsoever.

Dean is the enemy of misrepresentation, so I can understand why you might not be able to relate.

[Octafish]

13. Why would Dean side with GOP? MONEY!

Doctors who sided with Gingrich didn't like Clinton's plan because they thought it would take money out of their pockets.

Of course, these physicians were right. The government had to ask them to limit compensation in order to put the brakes on Medicaid spending.

It's weird to capitalist and commie alike — doctors now get less money from the government than they do for the same procedure for a patient with a private health insurance company.

Now I know Dean is cheap — he said so on Jay Leno the other night. I didn't know he was THAT cheap.

Lots of doctors don't because there's no money to be made, after expenses. Does anyone know if Dean limited treatment of Medicaid patients at his office? If so, that would REALLY be Newt-lite.

[clar]

59. Whatever else may

be said about him, it's clear that Dean is not someone interested in chasing the almighty dollar. He's not terribly wealthy, worth between 3 and 4 million- and if you think that's a lot, you're wrong. If he he was interested in making a lot of money he would have stayed on Wall Street. He lives very modestly, drives an old beater, and flaunts none of the trappings of wealth. Suggesting that he is interested in lining his own pockets defies the evidence to the contrary.

[tokenlib]

21. I am concerned about Dean's fiscal responsibility and priorities

First off I kind of like Dean. And it is a good thing to be fiscally responsible. But some of these past quotes have me concerned.

Bush always tries to hide behind cutting the rate of growth of programs--when he wants to kneecap the needy. And the Dean quote from the mid-nineties where he would have considered benefit reductions for recipients of Social Security and Veteran' benefits--is a red flag for me.

Unless he takes some of the energy he uses for attacking Bush and other candidates and starts a convincing argument that he would go "elsewhere" to balance a budget--- he will begin to discover that a lot of his support is rather "soft."

Dean has too many progressives supporting him that "hope" he will govern "progressively" when elected. These quotes do raise concerns.
And Dean needs to respond to these concerns, with where he will stand on these issues--more than he has thus far.

[w4rma]

22. Dean has already responded, multiple times, to these 7+ year old quotes

And I'm, frankly, sick of reposting them.

[AP]

24. 7 years ago is when this was discussed publicly.

That this happened 7 years ago doesn't mean it's less credible.

And, anyway, it fits right in with the fiscal conservativism he espouses today.

To say you don't want to talk about this is saying that you don't want to talk about Dean's fiscal conservativism.

[w4rma]

25. I've posted Dean's heath care proposals multiple times

I've posted his advocation for keeping Social Security solvent by raising the income cap on the payroll tax many times. No, some people would rather try to make Dean's positions of 7+ years ago (which Clinton agreed with.) Dean's positions today.

Extremely massive information dump on Gov. Howard Dean, M.D. (v2.0)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=41214

[DemBones DemBones]

33. Some people depend on Social Security and Medicare

or Medicaid; others have family members who depend on the programs.

That's the answer to the Dean supporter who asked "Who cares?"

Anyone who doesn't care must be young and healthy, and not realize that those conditions can change, quickly in the case of health.

I see Dean as being a bit of a fanatic about budget balancing, unconcerned about the people who are hurt when programs are cut.

I heard Dean say in June 2003 (June 22, I believe it was) on Meet the Press that he would "entertain" and "look at" raising Social Security retirement age to 68, after Russert reminded him of his 1995 support for raising the retirement age to 70 (he also supported cuts in the program.) Then on August 5, at the AFL-CIO debate, Dean denied having ever supported raising the retirement age. Dean supporters want to split semantic hairs over this but the rest of us know that Dean meant he'd give the idea serious consideration and for all practical purposes that's the same as supporting it since it indicates he could support it.

Democrats are supposed to oppose cutting Social Security and Medicare/ Medicaid. Democrats are supposed to make sure the government keeps its promises to everyone who's paid into these programs. Dean grew up in a Republican family and I'm afraid a large part of his thinking is still Republican.

[w4rma]

27. Clinton and The New Republic on Dean's health care record (that's record)

ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER...
by Jonathan Cohn

Candidate: Howard Dean
Category: Domestic Policy
Grade: A

What a presidential candidate says (or has said) on the stump matters a great deal. But what a presidential candidate actually does (or has done) in office matters, too. It is in that spirit we take note of two recent reports about the status of health care in Vermont, where Howard Dean was governor from 1991 until 2002.
…
http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=788

…
Clinton described Dean's accomplishments with health care in his home state and his proposal to promote a national health care plan with a modest price tag as “New Democrat” positions. He was referring to the moniker the Democratic Leadership Council puts on Democrats who can blend moderate ideas that appeal to swing voters with traditional Democratic themes.
…
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/05/14/national2104EDT0848.DTL
http://www.sltrib.com/2003/May/05152003/nation_w/57021.asp

[tokenlib]

26. The answers have not been sufficient.

Some of us need more convincing that we need not be concerned as to Dean's priorities.

The taking the cap off the payroll tax to strengthen Social Security is a good response to concerns on that issue. Dean needs to do more of the same specifics on veterans benefits and other issues.

[w4rma]

28. Dean on health care and social security

health care
…
For a year now, I have been traveling this country advocating a repeal of Bush's tax cuts so that we can provide universal healthcare and restore fiscal discipline. Many have questioned the political wisdom of challenging the president on politically popular tax cuts.

I believe, however, that given a choice between having health insurance or keeping all of the Bush's tax cuts in place, most Americans will choose health insurance. My plan will cost $88.3 billion -- less than half of the president's tax cut -- with money left over to pay down the deficits run up by this administration.

My plan consists of four major components.

First, and most important, in order to extend health coverage to every uninsured child and young adult up to age 25, we'll redefine and expand two essential federal and state programs -- Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program. Right now, they only offer coverage to children from lower-income families. Under my plan, we cover all kids and young adults up to age 25 -- middle income as well as lower income. This aspect of my plan will give 11.5 million more kids and young adults access to the healthcare they need.

Second, we'll give a leg up to working families struggling to afford health insurance. Adults earning up to 185% of the poverty level -- $16,613 -- will be eligible for coverage through the already existing Children Health Insurance Program. By doing this, an additional 11.8 million people will have access to the care they need.

Many working families have incomes that put them beyond the help offered by government programs. But this doesn't mean they have viable options for healthcare. We'll establish an affordable health insurance plan people can buy into, providing coverage nearly identical to what members of Congress and federal employees receive.

To cushion the costs, we'll also offer a significant tax credit to those with high premium costs. By offering this help, another 5.5 million adults will have access to care.

Third, we need to recognize that one key to a healthy America is making healthcare affordable to small businesses.We shouldn't turn our back on the employer-based system we have now, but neither should we simply throw money at it. We need to modernize the system so employers will have an option beyond passing rising costs on to workers or bailing out of the system entirely. Fortunately, we have a model of efficient, affordable and user-friendly healthcare coverage: the federal employee health system.

With the plan I've put forth to the American people, we'll organize a system nearly identical to the one federal workers and members of Congress enjoy. And we'll enable all employers with less than 50 workers to join it at rates lower than are currently available to these companies -- provided they insure their work force. I'll also offer employers a deal: The federal government will pick up 70% of COBRA premiums for employees transitioning out of their jobs, but we'll expect employers to pay the cost of extending coverage for an additional two months. These two months are often the difference between workers finding the health coverage they need, or joining the ranks of the uninsured.

Finally, to ensure that the maximum number of American men, women and children have access to healthcare, we must address corporate responsibility. There are many corporations that could provide healthcare to their employees but choose not to. The final element of this plan is a clear, strong message to corporate America that providing health coverage is fundamental to being a good corporate citizen. I look at business tax deductions as part of a compact between American taxpayers and corporate America. We give businesses certain benefits, and expect them to live up to certain responsibilities.
…
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_health

The plan will cost an estimated, "$88.3 billion". This is paid for from some of the money saved by repealing Bush's tax cuts.

The Dean proposal expands Medicaid and CHIP to ages 25 and under. CHIP is expanded to adults earning up to "185% of the poverty level" (currently, $16,613).

For the "capitalist" half of the Dean plan: Folks with high health premium costs recived "a significant tax credit" to cushion the costs. The current "employer-based system" in use now will be modernized by upgrading it to the same healthcare coverage that "federal workers and members of Congress" have available to them.

Small buisnesses of less than 50 workers get lower rates than their larger competitors. Employers pick up the tab for 2 months in between jobs, but the costs of the COBRA premiums for those 2 months are subsidized, at 70%, by the federal government for employers. Corporations will receive "business tax deductions" as an incentive for supplying health care to their employees.

social security
…
The actions of this President and this administration are threatening the soundness of our Social Security system and of our private pension systems as well. By creating the largest deficits in history and adding irresponsibly to the federal debt, he has given Americans worried about their retirement even more cause for concern.

As President, I will be committed to preserving the integrity and long-term stability of the Social Security Trust Fund. I will oppose privatizing the Social Security System. And I will pursue a responsible economic agenda, and under my plan we will never have to consider raising the retirement age.

The long-term future of Social Security and financial security for all of us in our retirement years depends on ensuring a healthy rate of economic growth over the next several decades. Even a modest increase in long-term growth rates will ease the burden on the Social Security Trust Fund. If we do need to bring more money into Social Security, then I'm prepared to look at reasonable options for expanding the ceiling on payroll taxes.

The best guarantee for our Social Security, therefore, is an economic plan with three basic principles:

First, we must create economic growth and jobs new jobs, more jobs, and better jobs for Americans;

Second, we must return to fiscal sanity, for the sake of future generations, yes but also for the sake of our very national security. We cannot be a world-class country if we are the world's largest debtor;

Finally, we must reform our tax system. When I am President, I will work to repeal the top heavy Bush tax cuts, and replace them with a system that is fairer, and simpler, and places less of a burden on working Americans who live off their paychecks.
…
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7343

[tokenlib]

29. Thanks for your efforts..

Sometimes it takes repetition to respond to concerns and I appreciate your postings.

Now if I can find the same specifics on fully funding the VA medical system--and opposing the cuts of the republican leadership--I'd be thrilled.

[w4rma]

30. Dean: Empowering Veterans

As President, I will ensure that veterans receive the respect and recognition they so greatly deserve for the sacrifices that they have made serving our nation. This is fundamental to the ideal of the American Community, which my campaign seeks to restore.

Too often in our history, once the battle is over, the men and women of our armed forces have been neglected by the country they served. Those who have sacrificed for our nation deserve better not only do they deserve our admiration, compassion, and respect, they deserve health care and other tangible benefits that ensure that they can live their lives with respect and dignity. Our country owes them nothing less.

As Governor, I took numerous steps to recognize and support the 40,000 veterans living in Vermont. I enacted legislation to protect state-employed veterans’ retirement benefits and to exempt disabled veterans from property taxes. I revived the Governor’s Advisory Council on Veterans Affairs, and dedicated Vermont’s first veterans’ cemetery. I hope and believe my actions as Governor demonstrate my esteem for veterans, and my sense of the debt we owe them as a nation.

When George Bush was running for President, he made much of his commitment to supporting America’s fighting men and women, both during and after their service. In office, however, President Bush has broken promises, cut funding, and turned his back on the same veterans he claims to support. He has even ignored the bipartisan recommendations of his own veteran’s health care task force, which urged full funding for veterans’ health care.

It’s time to end the broken promises, and to do right by America’s veterans. As President, I will not turn my back on our veterans.

• I will support and sign legislation that fully funds the VA health care system, to ensure a level of funding that provides every veteran with quality, timely health care.
• I will put an end to the Disabled Veterans Tax by supporting and signing legislation authorizing concurrent receipt.
• I will return the Department of Veterans Affairs to its mission of serving veterans, and educating them about their rights to quality health care rather than hiding their rights from them.
• I will push for full funding of Veterans Affairs’ programs that treat mental illness, particularly relating to the lingering stresses of battle.
• I will provide homeless veterans with the resources and support that they need to regain stability, dignity, and control of their lives.
• I will support and sign legislation that ensures veterans sufficient G.I. Bill funding to send them not just to, but through, college or vocational school.
• I will enforce veterans’ preference statutes applicable to all executive branch agencies.

Funding these programs and taking these steps isn’t only about allocating money. It’s about showing America’s veterans the respect and dedication they deserve from a grateful nation, by empowering them with the tools they need to live productive lives. As President, I will put the weight of my office behind this worthy and overdue effort.
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=community_veterans

I found this post on an open thread on the Dean blog:

The following are sites you can share with vets

Veterans for Dean
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=community_veterans

Yahoo Group Veterans for Dean
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veteransfordean/

Veterans for Dean -- DeanSpace
http://deanspace.org/node/view/430

Vets for Dean Blog
http://vetsfordean.blogspot.com/

In addition, the following addy gives Iraq casualty counts and DoD press releases:
http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

this next site posts articles of interest from a veteran's perspective:
http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/

and www.hackworth.com gives you hard-hitting,
no-holds-barred articles from a professional warrior/writer

[tokenlib]

34. Thanks again!

Appreciate the post. I feel a bit better knowing this. I'd looked, but was unable to find the stuff you provided--so thanks..

[Nicholas_J]

36. Dean made similar quotes, gussied up for presidential campaigns

About holding back Social Security and Medicare spending on Meet the Press in June. He hedgets and tries to slip around Russert, but is pinned down:

Dean: $85,000, maybe you raise it to $100,000 or whatever the numbers are. We’ve got to look at the numbers to figure out what you do. You get the Social Security problem off the table first by fixing it and then not allowing the Congress to keep taking money out of the trust fund. The president’s financing his tax cuts by taking money out of the Social Security trust fund. That’s ridiculous—first. Secondly, what do you do about the budget? You restrain spending. You do not have to actually make cuts in things like Medicare or in things like Medicaid or even in Defense. What you have to do is restrain the increases in spending.
Russert: When the Republicans tried to limit the growth, the Democrats said that was an actual cut.
Dean: Well, they’re going to say what they’re going to say. All I...
Russert: You would be willing to limit the growth...
Dean: Absolutely.
Russert: ...in Defense, in Medicare and Social Security?
Dean: You have to do that. If you don’t go where the money is—Social Security, we’re going to fix differently. We’re not talking about Social Security. We’re talking about Medicare. We’re talking about Defense and we’re talking about all the other things the federal government does. But I want to put the tax cut back into that budget. They need it to balance the budget.

http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

This is more Dean bullshit because with the increase in the number of people who are entering and about to enter the Medicare system, there is no way to hld back spending, without cutting benefits, or increasing the amount of the bill picked upt by the patient's all of who are on FIXED incomes, who will be greatly harmed by such decisions.

This is simply Dean saying exactly the same thing that he said in 1995, toned down because he is running for president.

[acerbic]

37. Do you think anyone else but the other True Believers are going to bother

...to read that just to check which words and numbers you altered this time when "quoting" the article you link to? You're pretty much disregarded by now.

[AP]

52. I suspect that lots of people read NicholasJ's posts...

...I always do.

When there's so much rah rah for Dean (of the kind where, for example, you say "Dean likes Medicare because he likes Social Security" which is very slippery spin) you're inviting a close reading of ANYONE who's willing to post actual information which is critical.

And to complain that N. is spinning when the Deanophiles are doing the same...well, pot, meet kettle.

[acerbic]

53. I wasn't talking about "Nicholas_J"'s spinning here...

And to complain that N. is spinning when the Deanophiles are doing the same...well, pot, meet kettle.

Pretending to quote from an article with link to it but altering the text in your post hoping that nobody checks it like "Nicholas_J" does in e.g. post #4 is not "spinning": it's ***** (DU rules prohibit the use of the proper noun). Can you show any "Deanophiles" doing the same? Can you?

Just as I said, the few True Believers who enjoy fabrication instead of facts like it of course...

[AP]

55. I didn't read that post that way.

[acerbic]

57. Of course you didn't

...but anyone else than the True Believers can easily see the difference between the text in the article and what "Nicholas_J" claims to be the text in the article.

[Nicholas_J]

68. Didnt alter one single word of Deans commets to Russert.

All anyone needs to do to Verify that is to connect to the ling and use the browser to search for the word MEDICARE...Shall I do it again:

Dean: Absolutely. You don’t have to increase the amount of the payroll tax, you increase the salary that it’s applied to. You see what I mean?
Russert: Yes.
Dean: $85,000, maybe you raise it to $100,000 or whatever the numbers are. We’ve got to look at the numbers to figure out what you do. You get the Social Security problem off the table first by fixing it and then not allowing the Congress to keep taking money out of the trust fund. The president’s financing his tax cuts by taking money out of the Social Security trust fund. That’s ridiculous—first. Secondly, what do you do about the budget? You restrain spending. You do not have to actually make cuts in things like Medicare or in things like Medicaid or even in Defense. What you have to do is restrain the increases in spending.
Russert: When the Republicans tried to limit the growth, the Democrats said that was an actual cut.
Dean: Well, they’re going to say what they’re going to say. All I...
Russert: You would be willing to limit the growth...
Dean: Absolutely.
Russert: ...in Defense, in Medicare and Social Security?
Dean: You have to do that. If you don’t go where the money is—Social Security, we’re going to fix differently. We’re not talking about Social Security. We’re talking about Medicare. We’re talking about Defense and we’re talking about all the other things the federal government does. But I want to put the tax cut back into that budget. They need it to balance the budget.
Russert: That’s raising taxes, though. Let’s be honest.

http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

This is the EXACT, transcription of Deans statements on June 22nd, 2003.

And I already know that the elderly and those who are preparing to retire, from polling data, beleive what Dean said in 1995 is more indicative of his platform than what he is saying now in order to try to hustle voters.

Dean has gotten a great deal of early support from the 18-30 set, who are now being estimated to only comprise 4.4 percent of the actual people who will vote as democrats in 2004.

No matter how Dean tries to SPIN his statements about Medicaire and reducing spending, andone older and more experienced than all of the new voters Dean is bringing to the polls knows that Dean is simply LYING to get what he wants, as with the vast number of people about to retire, there is NO possible way, even with repealing the total Bush tax cuts, to hold Medicare and SOcial Security spending down. It is fiscal conservative code for cutting benefits, pure and simple.

[acerbic]

69. So you altered Russert's questions then, right?

Didnt alter one single word of Deans commets to Russert.
...or something anyway to make it say what you want it to say: why would you otherwise specifically say that you didn't alter a certain part of it? :think:

[sandnsea]

35. "What you have to do is restrain spending"

People don't need to go to the past to know Dean's position on balancing the budget. This interview was in September.
http://www.newsobserver.com/24hour/politics/story/1012025p-7105749c.html

"Dean said he would not cut military spending in his quest to balance the budget. He also would increase spending for health insurance, special education and grants for urban revitalization.

Other than that, "everything is on the table," he said, suggesting he may be willing to hold spending on some programs, such as veterans affairs.

"You do not have to make cuts to balance the budget," he explained. "What you have to do is restrain spending."

Dean's failure to list Medicaid among the programs he would protect drew criticism from rival Dick Gephardt, who said the answer to the nation's budget problems is not to cut Medicaid."

[genius]

39. Dean is no friend to senior citizens.

And he seems willing to say whatever will get him elected.

[w4rma]

41. Genius is posting an unsubstantiated lie (n/t)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

63. Dean told Stephanopoulos he wants to cut Medicare

-- is that how he plans on being a friend to seniors?

STEPHANOPOULOS: (Gephardt) also says that in 1995, you specifically supported the 270 billion dollars or so in tax cuts that were called for by Newt Gingrich --

DEAN: I think that's very unlikely.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Here's the document…And it's pretty clear that you said you would accept a seven- to ten-percent cut in the rate of growth of Medicare, which is --

DEAN: Oh, a cutting the rate of growth is much different --

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, except that the cut in growth rate in 1995 came to 270 billion dollars.

DEAN: I've got to find out…but I fully subscribe to the notion which is to reduce the Medicare growth rate to ten percent or less, I'm sure I said that.

STEPHANOPOULOS: That's what Newt Gingrich was calling for in 1995.
http://www.liberaloasis.com/archives/091403.htm#091603

[blm]

64. If Panetta is talking like this, it's because Clinton wants him to.

Dean was always expected to have problems reconciling his LONGHELD conservative, sometimes libertarian views with his newfound populist rhetoric.