My take on the "fax" controversy

[BushGone04]

First, I thought the fax sent by Kerry's campaign was an unnecessary, uncalled-for tactic. But I will guarantee that every candidate had a Clinton-esque response team sending out faxes just like that one; the real mistake was made by the CNN folks in reading it. Also, I don't know if Kerry himself was involved, or if that fax was something cooked up by an overzealous campaign staff. Either way, I'd like to see Kerry apologize for it.

However, I'd also like to see Dean apologize for flying around the country for the last year comparing other candidates, Kerry in particular, to Bush.

Clearly, neither of these apologies is going to happen. So, here's what Dean and Kerry supporters can do now: we can all realize that both of our candidates and their campaigns have gone over the top in their criticisms of the other, and we can move on towards choosing someone to represent our party in 2004 (I really, really hope the people who posted last night that they wouldn't vote for Kerry if he got the nomination were just speaking out of emotion and will reconsider).

[Atman]

1. Common tactic

I don't recall where I read it, but I did see an article not long ago about these fax war rooms during the 2000 psuedo-debates. Bush had teams of people, literally, teams of people, listening to the debate, and any time Gore made a statement about something he'd done or position he'd taken, they'd do a Nexxus on it and have a fax out to the media practically before he was done speaking.

[Pez]

20. good insight to the whole fax flurry thing...

...was on wnyc after the last debate (in nyc). they had some students on from the university the next morning, and one had been running faxes and notes from the campaigns to the press, or other campaigns. one i remember was from edwards thanking kerry for defending him on some point during the debates. others she ran were fact checks to the press and whatnot...

the girl couldn't believe what a madhouse it was. the other student was in the press room, and he had a little eye-opener as to what actually happens during these events.

anyone who thinks the back-room happenings in ANY camp are all friendly and morally superior to any other candidate should hang out back there sometime. it's politics; ALL of the candidates are politicians... they all use the same tactics. the only difference is woodruff is a biatch with some kind of motive.

[surfermaw]

37. Woodruff, is a conservative..and very much for AHrnold

She spoke the word AHrnold, every third word out of her mouth from the time he announced. All the democrats should have turned off CNN forever, much more of her and I am. Matter of fact the only reason I listen to CNN any more it to see Crossfire.

[clar]

2. I don't think either

needs to apologize, but I sure wish that the whole lot would just ixnay the the attacks. I'm beginning to feel a real aversion to the process.

[beyurslf]

3. every team

has their people researching what the others say. Deanhad his people doing it too, you can bet. It was odd that CNN read one of the faxes on the air in the debate.

And if you don't like seeing candidates disagree, then don't watch debates--that's what they are for. If they all got up there and sang kum bah yah it wouldn't be too informing would it? They "attacked" each other's ideas which is perfectly within the realm of a debate.

[clar]

Who said I watched the debate?

I had a baseball game to watch- far more important. And as for opposition research teams, I didn't bring that up im my post. Most importantly I dispute your contention that attacks are part of an honest battle of ideas. Most of the attacks are crafted from partial truths and the only point is to taint one's opponent.

[cindyw]

19. Every team was doing this

People who are judging Kerry harshly for this are being dishonest and hypocritical. All the candidates do this. It was CNN who should apologize to Kerry for making him look bad. Look how many people misunderstand this Fax. There will be a number of people who will say he is a dirty politician, without understanding that their own candidate was doing this too. Kerry should be pissed at CNN and I think we can assume that CNN has a favorite in CNN.

For anyone here to spin this and say that this whole thing doesn't appear to help Dean and therefore was Kerry's campaigns idea is ridiculous. This was an unfair attack on Kerry from CNN.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

4. Apologies won't happen

but that doesn't really matter. It is becoming more and more obvious who Kerry sees as the biggest threat, and it ain't Clark. His tactics are getting more desperate each day, but in the end his campaign has still stagnated and he hasn't figured out how to get it moving. He's running out of time.

[Atman]

6. Clark is on a mission

I'm new here, so I can't start a thread. I've lurked for ages, but I really was afraid to spend even more time on a political message board...but I gotta say, the DU forums are da place! Thanks to all...I've got more great inspiration here in the two days I've been on than in the last month searching other sites.

Anyway, by way of introduction, I offer up this cartoon I drew. I post a few each week on my political page, NotBannedYet.US. Hope you enjoy. I look forward to spending countless hours aggravating my carpal tunnel with you!

[On the Road]

7. Welcome, Atman!

:toast:

[blm]

14. How new are you to politics? They all do this, but

they are meant for AFTER the debate for the press to check the facts. This is the first time a MODERATOR used one of these DURING the debate, and it is no surprise they would use Kerry's since he is the one the WH wants targeted. The more voters who see it as just a dirty trick, the better for Rove.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

29. I'm not new at all

I'm 33 and have followed every presidential election since I was 18. I call it like I see it, and Kerry has been acting more and more desperate as the months have drawn on. His frustration at not climbing in the polls was evident the day he was caught saying "Dean Dean Dean Dean." His tactics are based around grasping at straws, because all of the other stuff he's thrown out at Dean has been artfully deflected.

[blm]

39. Your take on the fax incident is wrong and you can't admit it..

That's desperate.

And the reason that Deancomes out smelling OK after ANY dispute is because his supporters refuse to acknowledge any fact that comes out about Dean.

I can't believe any DUer is actually FOR deregulating electricity.

[madfloridian]

5. Why should Dean apologize?

The fax was dead wrong to send. It was the wrong thing to do. Kerry did support the war resolution, and that is what Dean is critizing him for. That is a just criticism.

Kerry was in my top 4 (well, top 3 since Graham left) until last night. He should not have allowed that to happen.

Dean actually criticizes the party for being Bushlite, not so much each candidate. He is justified in criticizing them for the war vote.

I remember calling them, Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, Lieberman, at least once a week. I even remember the militant music on Lieberman's office phone. I remember saying why why do you want to allow Bush to do this. There were tears as well, when I saw the bombs dropping when the invasion began.

I called their offices that day and asked how they felt about what was going on. Some of their aides were choked up just like I was. Do not justify that war vote.

[BushGone04]

8. I'm not justifying it

I'm just saying Dean should have refrained from using such a blatantly inflammatory term as "Bushlite" to describe members of his own party, whom he should have a great deal of respect for based on their records (note to Dean supporters: one vote on the Iraq resolution is not a record).

Presumably, all of us here have a pretty considerable level of contempt for the Bush Administration; so, I imagine, do all of our candidates. Thus, any comparison between one of them and Bush should not be made lightly (or, in my view, at all); and that has been Dean's mistake. Remember how offended he and his supporters (justifiably) got when Gephardt compared him to Gingrich? Maybe now you know how the rest of us have felt for a year now...

[RogueTrooper]

15. Bushlite was a pretty common insult on DU

around the time of the war vote. I would not be surprised if somebody on the Dean campaign picked up the insult from this very message board.

If memory serves, people were less than impressed by members of the Democratic caucus who supported Bush's War. A particular ire was directed at the legislators' who had an eleventh hour conversion to supporting military action.

[BushGone04]

22. Yeah...

There's a lot of stuff that goes on this board that I don't WANT to see in debates or from our candidates in any other situation. People here tend to get caught up and say pretty interesting things-- and, in this context, there's nothing wrong with that. But I don't want to see a lot of that stuff from our candidates. "Bushlite" would go under that category.

[blm]

27. let's have a prez who coopts internet coarseness

to condemn opponents and glorify himself.

[JohnKleeb]

30. yeah I know what you mean Rogue

lol unless its harry truman I dont expect the dem candiates to use my epihet for the GOP, "those fuckers"

[beyurslf]

16. Note to Kerry Supporters

True, one vote may not define a Congressional record that spans decades; however, this one vote does speak volumes. When a member of Congress abdicates the duties of that Chamber by giving the President a blank check to wage war (a duty given to Congress not the President), that vote does mean something. It can not be waived away by displaying the votes of years past. We had a chance last October to stand up the Administration and say "We will not allow you to terrorize our people with fear and lies" and we failed to do it.

[MrPeepers]

25. About the resolution vote...

It wasn't quite so cut-and-dry as a blank check to wage war. Take a look at this, I think I describe Kerry's justification pretty well, and I think he made no mistake. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=53845&mesg_id=54003&page=

Peepers

[Fabio]

11. The fault was for the fax

clearly lies with CNN and Judy Woodruff.
Those faxes are nothing new. All the campaigns make them. What was unique was CNN reading it. That was a mistake...It makes Kerry and Dean look bad.

Kerry for being dirty -- Dean for abandoning seniors.

[madfloridian]

17. I think that is how Dean got a tax on cigarettes.

No seniors were abandoned. I think he expanded some services, needed the tax to pay for it, and got his legislature to pass it that way.

[MrPeepers]

12. Really?

I hadn't heard that Kerry voted for the war resolution. For an explination on that, let me point you to http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=53845&mesg_id=54003&page=
where you will find a detailed justification of Kerry's vote. Why is it OK for Dean to criticize everyone, but not for Kerry? Referring to members of his own party who have been fighting for decades for what they believe in as 'Bush lite" is what I would call dead wrong. Dean has been shifting positions on Medicare and so on, and that is a just criticism. If the fax had targeted Lieberman, would you have cared? Would you have been decrying this awful action? Not to mention the fact that Kerry had no idea they were distributing that fax, and certainly no idea that they were going to read it ON AIR. I don't think this episode is a valid reason to drop Kerry from consideration as a candidate. To do so is terribly rash. That's all I have to say about it.

Peepers

[MrPeepers]

13. P.S.

that whole "I hadn't heard thing" was sarcasm, just so you know.


Peepers

[madfloridian]

18. The fax was wrong, no matter who did it or who was targeted.

It was wrong.

[Pez]

21. no, CNN is just trying to steal FOX's ratings by using their tricks

all the candidates do this... ALL. the amount of spin and info that flies around during the debates dwarfs the news articles. i don't know how all the reporters settle on one specific angle afterwards; guess it comes down from Teh Man.

seriously, cnn is turning into a bunch of jackholes; i think they're trying to chip away some of FOX's ratings by pulling stunts like that.

i wonder what it feels like to sell your soul for ratings; does it burn, cnn?

[surfermaw]

38. CNN..more Republican every day

Judy Woodruff, proved the fact , when she had the word Ahrnold comming out of her mouth like a machine gun shooting bullets, Ahrnold got a fortune in free advertising...Oh where would Edwards be if the gave him 1/1000 of the time Ahrnold was given... ME thinkest It is time from me to turn the button...have you noticed that CNN takes up every minute they can during Crossfire ...for any thing, they should use Judy Woodruff time ...since she contributes nothing except advertising for the REpublicans.

[MrPeepers]

24. No, it wasn't wrong.

What was wrong was that hooker Woodruff reading it like that. Every campaign has those things blowing around, it's just how the game is played. They're not wrong, they're politics. What's wrong is Woodruff reading that thing like that, embarrassing both Dean AND Kerry. Completely unacceptable. CNN is really not on my good list at the moment. Not to mention the fact that she was an awful moderator, and most of the questions were pretty conservatively oriented.

Peepers

[Skittles]

9. what does Clinton-esque mean

???????????????

[BushGone04]

10. Clinton was famous for the fast-response faxes

In 1992 in particular, Clinton's team became something of a legend for the quick responses they got to media outlets by fax, not only during the debates, but also the Republican Convention. Clintonesque wasn't a derogatory term on my part; it's just something Clinton's team did very well.

[George_Bonanza]

23. I wholeheartedly agree with BushGone04

I believe Kerry should've refrained from acknowledging a breach of debate rules. Kerry took the time to intelligently acknowledge and respect the opinions of a Republican heckler at one of his meetings. He showed tremendous grace and confidence there. At the CNN debate, he did not. However, I believe that it's CNN's fault mainly for reading the fax. Kerry should've acted better, but there are many times when every politician should've acted better. Again, as BushGone pointed out, Dean started the accusations long before people had the opportunity to properly research the candidates. So both candidates are at fault.

[diamondsoul]

26. Kerry didn't apologize, however-

he DID say "I didn't know they were saying that.", I believe in reference to the content of the fax. I suspect some people in Kerry's HQ found themselves in hot water today.

[BushGone04]

28. I hope so

Even so, he's ultimately responsible for what happens in his campaign, and, although it was partly the fault of CNN, his campaign made he and Dean look bad with this. Thus, I'd still like to see him apologize publicly for the ploy. Won't happen, but it'd be nice.

[cindyw]

32. This is disingenuous

Kerry had nothing to do with that fax getting into the debate. Would you feel differently if you knew that Dean was doing the same thing backstage?

[BushGone04]

40. I'm sure he was

You, like someone else last week, seem to have gotten the mistaken idea that I'm a Dean supporter. I'm not- look at the icon to your left. Whether Kerry had anything to do with the fax or not (and although I primarily blame CNN), it would be classy of him to accept responsibility for what his campaign does.

[cindyw]

41. He said" I didn't know"..

not "that's my campaign not me". He was ambushed by Judy and I thought he handled it well.

[Pez]

42. ratings > ethics

#1 i see by your av that you are a kerry supporter :D

#2 she could have picked ANY note from ANY camp... woodruff is a biatch. she could have picked one from some other candidate and it still would have been unprofessional and i still would object to it. you can't introduce ~spin~ into the very debate while it's happening. it had nothing to do with anyone on stage.

it's like if the middle of a piano recital someone came onstage and started mouthing off about your interpretation. not cool, heh?

apparently fluff apologized, so i guess we aren't the only ones who think she was totally out of line.

[Egnever]

31. You know i am wraping my head arround that statement

"I didn't know they were saying that."

I heard that too so I gave him the benefit of the doubt but then i started thinking about it.

For someone who didnt know they were saying that. He sure had a quick detailed answer on the subject. I have since changed my mind and decided Kerry was lying boldface when he said "I didnt know they were saying that"

Either he was lying or he is entirely to focused on Dean when he should be focusing on Bush. Sory but the fact that he was aware of and informed on the spin and knew exactly how he could spin it without being able to be called for outright lying, Proves him to be lying when he said he didnt know they were saying it in the first place. He was preped on this of that there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever.

[diamondsoul]

34. I don't know for certain, of course,

but he struck me as stating his honest view of Governor Dean's decisions in that situation, and I can't help granting him the benefit of the doubt for that reason. It may have seemed prepared, but I'm not personally convinced it was.

To being focused on Dean, I think he almost has to be as a strategy. Dean is the leader who has been ahead of him for months now. He's got to find some way to set himself apart, so what else would he do BUT challenge Dean's past record and any possible "flip-flops" or discrepancies? I prefer that to comparing him to Newt Gingrinch, personally but maybe you see them as pretty well equal if Kerry new about the fax. That would be understandable.

[Egnever]

35. I dont know for certain either

however Kerry was dead wrong in his response. It was skirting the truth very craftily. The fact that his campaign is sending these faxes in and his quick answer to the question says to me that he is informed on this situation and if he was really informed on it then he knew that he was stretching deans stance at best and outright lying about it at worst.

I dont for a second think kerry is a fool. Technically he could get away with exactly what he said but it flies in the face of the real situation. dean did threaten the cuts kerry said he did but only if the legislature didnt pass the cigarette tax as without that tax the state couldnt afford to continue the program. It was strongarm politics to be sure but it worked and behind it vermont got to keep the programs and not go into deficit spending to do so.

In short it was smart politics by Dean used to get the program kerry claims he was trying to gut funded. Kerry knows this yet chooses yo try to paint Dean as a bad guy by omiting the details of the situation.

There was nothing remotely honest about kerry's response IMHO.

I am all for going after someone based on thier record but I am not for distortung that record to suit your agenda. Kerry tried to distort the record by insinuating dean really did cut benefits wich doesnt even come close to the reality of the situation.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. My tin-foil hat theory

As many of you know, I'm a Kucinich supporter, but I'm not hostile to Dean or Kerry. There are things to like about both of them, and either of them would be better than Bush.

The "fax" incident was an attempt to make both Dean and Kerry look bad. I strongly suspect that there is a Republican mole on Kerry's staff who arranged with Judy Woodruff to have the fax read on the air.

The proper response from John Kerry would be to fire the staffer who sent the fax to Judy Woodruff before the show was over and to apologize to Dean for putting him on the spot.

[Andromeda]

36. I'm disgusted with Kerry for taking the bait...

but even more disgusted with CNN and Judy Woodruff for pulling the fax and reading it out loud.

Lets face it, all of these candidate are competing with each other and sometimes they're not very nice the way they do it. It's all part of the process and it happens every four years.

Believe me, I've seen a lot worse and so far this is all par for the course.