Sorry, but it takes more than getting "cool" photo ops

[KaraokeKarlton]

to be president. Why is the bulk of the posts about Kerry focused on his image and appearances of what he does and says instead of the important issues at hand and what he offers as a politician? Is anyone else nauseated by this?

[blm]

1. HAHAHA...Kerry's policy positions are the most studied and comprehensive

of all the candidates. We have posted them here all the time and hear the crap that Kerry's not a normal person and regular people don't relate to Kerry so his positions don't matter.

You complaining about some of the "appearance" threads? That's rich.

[w4rma]

4. Yeah, yeah. Kerry has done his time and now we owe him the Presidency

right?

That's the message I'm getting from his campaign. Support Kerry because he's done his time. We owe it to him. Overlook his grevious errors of the past 3 years or so, because he did his time in Congress and Vietnam and helped investigate Iran-Contra.

I used to actually defend Kerry before a small group of Kerry supporters, who have probably racked up more posts than I have in 3 months than in my almost 3 years here, bombarded this board with anti-Dean spam.

[cindyw]

7. Nobody is owed the presidency

You are being silly. No one say he is owed it. Certainly not him. :silly:

[Octafish]

62. Sen. Kerry's EARNED the job.

For almost his entire adult life, John Kerry has worked as a public servant. As an officer in the United States Navy, he sacrificed his personal safety for the mission and the men under his command. Afterward, as a private citizen, he did all he could to stop the war. As a Massachusetts state's attorney, he helped put the Mafia's No. 2 guy away for life. As a Senator, he went after the crooks in government and big business, including Ollie North and the Iran-Contra drug connection and BCCI scams. He's been an ardent supporter of Civil Rights, public education, children's issues, the environment, small businesses, and organized labor — all work he's continued to the present day.

What's in his record that don't you like? The fact he's strong on national defense? Let me guess — the Iraq War Resolution. If so, please remember Sen. Kerry did what he thought best to protect the national security and people of our country.

[lastliberalintexas]

66. Umm, no he hasn't.

No one has, and no one will until the primaries/convention are finished. Just thought I'd remind you of that- this is not a bash. Kerry is my second choice, btw. :)

[KaraokeKarlton]

13. blm all I've ever seen you talk about is what he did decades ago

I'm not kidding. Vietnam this, Iran-Contra that. As Janet Jackson would say...What had he done for you lately?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KaraokeKarlton]

23. Planned Parenthood didn't care about the partial birth abortion vote?

The one that Kerry abstained from voting for?

You do realize that when you miss well over half of the votes, that it makes for misleading percentages, don't you?

[blm]

34. He didn't abstain...get your facts straight.

He wasn't there to vote, but his record was always perfect on reproductive rights.

Planned Parenthood knew exactly what any politically savvy organization knew, that the vote that day was set up for COSMETIC reasons by the GOP to appeal to their base. Frist scheduled it when he knew that two of Dem Senators would be in California for the State Dem convention.

That vote wasn't going to change anything because they already knew that PBA would go through the Supreme Court and ONLY with language that could pass the Constitutional test of "the health of the mother" as it was rejected before that without that language.

[KaraokeKarlton]

40. That's not what I read

I distinctly remember reading that he was present and abstained from voting. In fact, I'm almost positive I read it on a site that lists how everyone votes. You'd better check your facts.

[blm]

44. Funny, he was in California at the time...

scheduled along with Edwards to speak at the convention. Maybe you should get YOUR facts straight instead of from your "IhateKerry because" campaign memes that the GOP have pushed into the public lexicon for over 30 years.

[Pez]

41. it's pointless-- he will just twist on to some other irrelevant topic...

...as soon as you provide proof.

post #25

[Feanorcurufinwe]

25. The record doesn't matter if you hate Kerry enough.

As has been shown time and time again.

[Pez]

22. if that's the standard-- dean didn't do jack for me ever

kerry has done plenty in his almost 20 years as senator... vawa, anwr, representing vets, women's issues, civil rights, environment. education... it goes on and on. some of these things on the campaign trail (anwr, vet compensation etc). dean is a full-time campaigner.

what has dean done for me ever? ansr: nothing. neither did clinton before he became president, so whatever. ok it's obvious you dislike kerry, but you can't say he never did anything for the citizens of the you.s.

[KaraokeKarlton]

33. Dean did plenty for me and my family...

He gave my family health insurance we can afford. His welfare reform helped me get on my feet and become self reliant and get off assistance. His welfare reform paid for college courses for me, repaired my vehicle several times, paid for childcare for me to study and work, paid for school and work clothes for me, renewed my drivers license, paid for my auto insurance, and that's just a few things. Howard Dean made my life a hell of a lot better than it was before.

[blm]

37. Just saw your sig line.

Funny...some tombstoned posters from Vermont who posted much the same as you here, had that exact same attitude as well about guns as you express in your sig line. They always blamed Democrats for their gun control platform, and they used NRA talking points against Dems to do so. Just like your sig line.


For those of you who missed the sig line:

Democrats talking about "gun control" to hunters and gun rights people is the equivalent of Republicans talking about "regulating abortion" to pro-choice people. It goes over about as well as an elephant pissing on a flat rock...and they DON'T TRUST YOU!

[KaraokeKarlton]

42. Damn near all Vermonters feel strongly about guns

There are plenty of people on here who share my views on guns. You act like it's rare for anyone who values the 2nd Amendment to post here. That's pretty silly. You sound an awful lot like several other Kerry supporters on here, too. And your point is?

[blm]

43. But these particular posters also stated the same litany

of services that Dean provided them in Vermont. They never acknowledged the difference between what the state programs were BEFORE Dean, or how the federal govt. provided many of those services, and Dean was directly responsible more for tweaking some of those programs for the state rather than providing them himself.

[KaraokeKarlton]

46. Oh my God, there is only one woman in Vermont

who doesn't hate guns, likes Howard Dean and is familiar with his record who also has internet access and can navigate to Democratic Underground! How many members are there on this site again? Are you related to Liberty Chick by any chance? I don't have any idea who it is you're talking about, and are apparently accusing me of being. I will say this, though, I'm quite confident that I'm not the only person who lives in Vermont with a computer who supports Howard Dean and visits this site.

:eyes:

[Pez]

38. kerry et al made a lot of that possible actually.

[KaraokeKarlton]

50. Actually, no, he didn't

Bill Clinton made it possible by granting Dean a Medicaid waiver and a welfare reform waiver that allowed him the freedom to do things differently in Vermont. I wouldn't qualify for the health care for my family in any other state because I would be over the income limit. Vermont's income limits are higher not because of anything Kerry did, but because of the waiver Bill Clinton gave Dean.

[sandnsea]

52. AAAGGGHHH!!!! THAT WAS CONGRESS!!!!!!!!

All of it, the whole goddamn thing. Congress and Clinton did all of this for you. We have the exact same programs here in Oregon. Those no good, do-nothing Washington insiders. Why don't you pick one, any one of them, and support them. They're who you owe all your good fortune to.

[KaraokeKarlton]

55. Nope

Clinton gave Dean the waivers to make the programs possible. I would NOT have health insurance for my family if Howard Dean hadn't worked hard for the waivers and pushed for the things that have helped me. If it were Congress who did this, then every damn state would have the same social programs Vermont does, and they don't. Does Oregon have a drug benefit for seniors? If you make $50,000 a year do you get to buy health insurance through Medicaid for no more than $50 a month for your entire family?

[sandnsea]

58. Yep, yep and yep

Oregon was the first state to get waivers for health care and one of the first, if not the first, to get them for welfare programs. So if you really want to thank someone, thank Governor Kitzhaber. And Bill Clinton did not just come along and authorize all that money and all those changes to make this happen. Most of this authority came in the welfare reform act. More came later with SCHIP and other legislation. These programs just would not exist without Congress.

And our buy-in ranges from $6 - $26 per month. And we have a program that pays up to 95% of people's employer-provided insurance too. And prescription drug programs for seniors and a separate insurance pool for people who have pre-existing conditions. And education and work programs that also pays for cars, computers and anything else someone needs to get on their feet. There are 18 states with insurance coverage of children at or above 95%. Vermont is really not that unique.

[blm]

29. Gee...you missed the posts about healthcare

small businesses, veterans healthcare, etc.

I stress what he has done in the past because much of it relates to today and taking the fight to the BFEE based on the ammunition that only Kerry has on BCCI, IranContra and CIA funding of terrorism. 9-11 proved Kerry RIGHT and he is the one best equipped to make that case against Bush.

Why do you think many in the intel community are lining up behind Kerry? They know he has the goods on BushInc.and they mean to help.

[curse10]

70. Isn't it funny that when Kerry supporters actually post policy

the Kerry attackers are nowhere to be found?

[JohnKleeb]

71. hi Kirsten

:hi: Did you take a break or something? I gotta admit Kirsten, I am a proud Kucinich supporter like you are for Kerry, I dont like him voting for IWR but here's something I wont deny him, that is that he is liberal, a good man, has good policies, and will have my support if he gets the nomination.

[curse10]

72. Was in Western Mass for a few days and busy at school

I have a long memo due this week :-) I should be doing that, but was pulled in by rabid Kerry haters :-)

[JohnKleeb]

73. heh well glad to see you back

Go Sox and Kerry of course if he gets the nod.

[cindyw]

2. Nope

You are also being disingenuous and naive. Kerry supporters post a great deal of material on the things that they like about Kerry's policies. Also, for a great deal of the population, image matters. Doesn't hurt to have the whole package.

[Meshuga]

3. Dr. Funk is the person here...

...who likes pictures. It's unfair to say the bulk of his messages of Kerry are based on pictures since he posts more issues and news about Kerry than anything.

[KaraokeKarlton]

15. It's not all Funk

Take a minute and read the titles of the threads about Kerry by his supporters. Most of it centers around appearances/image and non-issue things. For the life of me, I can't believe that people would throw their support behind someone whom the bulk of the things they have to discuss about him are hollow, meaningless crap. Maybe I'm just more into substance than style.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. "Maybe I'm just more into substance than style." - So why don't you try

talking about something substantive then? lol

[blm]

31. Kerry not substantive? Hahahaha

Not many of his detractors here would even agree with that statement.

[DrFunkenstein]

48. I Love Pictures

But I have always been more than willing to go toe-to-toe on policy. I have thrown out tons and tons of policy threads - I could flood the boards with my bookmarks if you like - but the Dean people don't respond to them because they know that Kerry has the best vision on every subject. They'd rather talk about the IWR, because they know Dean has no juice (and held the same friggin' position as Kerry).

Now KK, what policy thread have you ever - EVER - started? Show me it, and I'll show you why Kerry is better.

[displacedtexan]

5. imagine...

next year's presidential debates.
which candidate will make the freak monkey squirm the most? which candidate is most comfortable in his/her own skin?

if i had the photo of john kerry, young war vet/protester with john lennon, I would post it here.

34% of the country is now undecided. unfortunately, to them image is the whole enchilada.

[JohnKleeb]

6. I get it

imo possibly one of the coolest pictures of any of the candiates.

[KaraokeKarlton]

16. UGH!

Good Lord that man is homely.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

17. Another insightful, issue-oriented post.

[KaraokeKarlton]

19. Well it's true

at least in my opinion.

[Pez]

8. k.k. you so crazy

kerry also has an extensive detailed platform and decades of experience fighting for democratic causes... even from before he held public office. what is your beef with people putting up pictures of kerry in activities he has always participated in? this isn't a stunt or a photo-op... it's what the guy does, in addition to his work.

[KaraokeKarlton]

18. I just think it's lame

that Kerry's supporters seem to focus mostly on image and the past while Kerry's last few years have been very disappointing. He's duller than a popcorn fart (as my mother would say) and I really, really dislike some of his positions. I don't think he wants the job, but only wants the status and power of the position, and he seems to think it should be handed over to him for things he did in the past even though most of what he's done recently really, really sucks. He also LIES, which I can't stand.

[MrPeepers]

27. Last I checked...

John Kerry and his supporters sure as hell focus on issues more than image. Gay rights. The Environment. The Economy. Foreign Relations. Criminal justice. Kerry believes very deeply in the thing's he's fought for in the Senate for years; he was a leader in Gay Rights and Protection of the Environment to name but two. He wants the job because he wants to continue the fight for what's right for America, I think it's incredibly cynical and incredibly arrogant to claim that A) someone dosn't want the job, only the status and power and B) is a liar, when you clearly havn't been paying the slightest bit of attention to the posts regarding Kerry here. Half of them are Dean people going on Kerry-Bash-A-Thons, the other half are discussions of Kerry's stances on various issues. Get your facts straight before you go around throwing accusations.

Peepers

[Pez]

30. that is ridiculous

you say he is all kinds of dull; someone posts ONE thread about kerry's extracurricular activities and all of a sudden all we care about is image?

all of the kerry supporters i come across can not only speak at lenght and in detail about his history and his campaign proposals, but also OTHER CANDIDATE'S history and current platforms. i can't say that about all of some "other" candidate's supporters. one or the other is about image, and it isn't kerry.

what has he done recently that "really really sucks"? stopping drillin in anwr? proposing legislation for vets? he has done a lot even while he was on the campaign trail, as have the other candidates who have to work. what does dean have to do? rearrange the astroturf on his bus?

kerry does not, as you like to say for him "think <the presidency> should be handed over to him for things he did in the past". do you think when someone goes to an interview for a job they shouldn't lay out their past experience and say why they are best qualified for the job? do you think instead they should flash a wad of cash and show them how many email addresses they have in their rolodex?

and what are these lies you are referring to?

[polpilot]

9. The deaths of young American is serious. Our recreational choices are

...well I really don't know what to say...except Ben (Franklin) would have not been very impressed. I had a Harley. I was 22. I moved on.

Dean '04...The Mature Choice

[Feanorcurufinwe]

10. Is that the best you can do? Attack Kerry for looking cool?

Attack Kerry for using his initials?

Attack Kerry for promoting slave labor? :eyes:

Why don't you pick something more substantive?

[polpilot]

11. This is your vision of cool? A statesman leads...his 'play' is no issue.

Dean '04 The New Democratic leader of The NEW Democratic Party.

[blm]

12. Dean TRIED to lead Vermont into deregulating electricity.

Thankfully, the legislature wouldn't follow.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

14. No, KK was the one who used that word.

[polpilot]

24. Sorry, it was you. Read the referenced post, ...your post.

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The NEW Democratic Party.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

26. In case you didn't notice

this thread, started by KK, is titled: 'Sorry, but it takes more than getting "cool" photo ops'

:eyes:

[polpilot]

32. Referenced YOUR post #10. Note YOUR 'cool' comment. Last notation.

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The NEW Democratic Party.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

35. Is anyone else nauseated by this?

I'm simply sharing my view that Kerry is basically nothing but a festering, oozing shit polyp. -- KK

[Pez]

36. me! me! *waves hand frantically*

:puke:

[blm]

39. Disgusting...and please NOTE the sig line:

Democrats talking about "gun control" to hunters and gun rights people is the equivalent of Republicans talking about "regulating abortion" to pro-choice people. It goes over about as well as an elephant pissing on a flat rock...and they DON'T TRUST YOU!

This bullshit line is the NRA talking point against Democrats.

[lastliberalintexas]

60. It is disgusting

and KK is doing absolutely no favors to Dean with his anti-Kerry threads and posts.

But blm, please get over the sig line. I am opposed to gun control as well, as are many liberals on this site. I am neither a member nor a supporter of the NRA. In fact, I HATE that organization. They are nothing more than a repub booster club in drag.

However, that doesn't negate the fact that there is legitimate disagreement within our party over this issue. You can say what you will about KK's juvenile anti-Kerry posts. But that fact that you disagree with him on an actual POLICY issue should not be a point of attack, but rather of real debate.

[blm]

80. The sig line pre-empts debate from Democrats.

Debate on the issue is fine, but, debate with FACTS, not with GOP perpetuated memes that were disseminated by the NRA and meant to elect Republicans. They went after the Dems in Congress in 94 and Gore in 2000 with that meme.

[indigo32]

45. It's completely over the top and lame

according to this Dean supporter.

[DrFunkenstein]

47. Holy Shit Is This Hilarious!!!

I have tried for months to get Dean people to talk about policy. All they want to talk about is the internet, polls, fund raising - anything to avoid policy comparisons. Any conversation you bring up, the Dean people go straight to the IWR. Why? Because they know their candidate is a lightweight.

As a matter of fact, I think it was yesterday when I threw out a thread on China - a real hot topic to take Kerry to task on. Any bites? Of course not.

Why did Dean refuse to debate Kerry one-on-one? Because he is so fair minded and wanted to include everybody? That was the spin, and his supporters regurgitated it like good little zealots. The truth is that Kerry would mop the floor with Dean - and Dean supporters know it.

Dean has the IWR - and that's it.

His foreign policy is Kerry-lite, his position is radically pro-Israel (although his soundbites are "even-handed"), and virtually everyone of his policies consist of lots of soundbites and little substance.

IWR - that's it.

[sandnsea]

54. lol, that is true

I think they're mad because Kerry has not only been a more interesting and active international politician, he's also more interesting and active as an individual citizen. Must be very frustrating to try to talk up somebody whose greatest achivement is a canoe trip. Not that there's anything wrong with canoeing with your family, but it ain't quite Pamplona!

[DemDogs]

79. And whatever the Vt legislature and S.Ct. did

Agree 100%

[DJcairo]

49. Not as nauseated as I am by Dean's neck or lack thereof

[blm]

51. Physical features shouldn't be part of political discourse.

Except for the Rethugs and their smirks, of course.

(that's for you, dsc, and something I adhere to personally)

[lastliberalintexas]

61. Thanks blm

.

[KaraokeKarlton]

56. FDR was in a wheelchair

and your point is?

[Lexingtonian]

53. Interesting....

This thread is one of a mounting number that is persuading me that the Dean movement is running low on steam.

I'm starting to think Dean's candidacy/support did peak in July/August and Clark getting in has accelerated the slumping of momentum. These attacks and hatred seem wierdly desperate. (Remember, the smart rats get off the ship before it sinks!)

[KaraokeKarlton]

57. No, I just really dislike Kerry

He wants to force children to do community service in order to graduate from high school. I have 3 teenagers who would be affected by this. Community service is for people who break the law. Volunteering is for people who don't, and it's done because a person chooses to, not because they are forced. I HATE the idea of forced work for no pay for America's children. Ever since I discovered Kerry wanted to do this, I have disliked him and said so quite often. I also don't like the way Kerry lies so much. I learned last night that he got involved in some tax evasions schemes. He did back out of them, but he broke the law and didn't report those activities as he was required to do. I also learned that he and his wife assiciate with corporate crooks. Kerry's wife turned control of an environmental non-profit org. to Ken Lay AFTER he ripped off so many people. Yes, I'm thoroughly disgusted with Kerry and am very vocal about it.

[Octafish]

63. When did Kerry lie?

What tax evasion schemes?

If true, I'd be the first to write him and ask about it.

BTW: Why don't you put a "Dean" avatar up? That way people new to DU or new to reading your posts would know what flag you're operating under.

[DrFunkenstein]

75. Community service is for people who break the law

What a truly depressing, cynical statement. Seriously.

Your 3 teenagers are also required to pass gym class. That's a form of slavery. Some are even forced to take - gasp - a class on civics. That's biased against communist teenagers that don't subscribe to representative democracy.

God forbid the kids get to leave the classroom, help out the needy, and learn a thing or two about giving back to the community.

An you hated Kerry long before that proposal.

As for the "tax evasion" scheme, you know as well as I that he slapped his investor around as soon as he found out about it.

As far as Teresa, she has done more to help people than you will ever possibly do, and it shows just how low you are willing to go. She could just sit on her money and play bingo all day, but she has dedicated her life to "community service."

Secondly, I don't go saying Dean is a lousy father because his kid is a criminal. In fact, I defended Dean - and his kid - when that happened.

Here's the scoop: your arguments are very obviously desperate, even to Dean fans - which is why they don't back you up on your misguided anti-civics rants. And you still refuse to acknowledge that beyond the IWR jackpot, Dean is a policy lightweight.

[curse10]

77. So which is it? Do you hate Kerry or his policies?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=462705#469856

Pick one. Although it's pretty obvious what the answer is.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

59. How about this one?

Is it 'cool'?

[helleborient]

64. The John Lennon photo is doctored...

For satire purposes.

Just thought it was important to point out...here's the link:

http://www.bongonews.com/layout1.php?event=550

This is the headline:

John Kerry Desperately Links Himself to John Lennon

It's meant in humor.

[helleborient]

65. Oops...sorry about that...but Kerry used it w/o permission...and

It's being used in satire...

Here's a link to the article from last summer:

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/313.htm

[blm]

67. used it w/o permission? What a crock.

He's one of the subjects in the picture and it's a historical photo. Lennon put himself in that history by introducing Kerry at a historical event.

Sheesh.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

68. Are you admitting that the headline of post 64 is a lie?

you say 'sorry about that' but you don't explain where you got the idea that the photo was doctored, (puzzling since even the 'bongonews' source that you (a librarian using 'bongonews.com' as a source?) quoted doesn't say that).

[deutsey]

74. Just for the record, the photo is legit

I don't support Kerry, but I think the photo is cool.

[JohnKleeb]

76. It is I think too

I too dont support Kerry but still agree. I dont know why people tried to deny it was real.

[freeamerica]

69. Why?

We have fallen into this cover up is better then the truth. The truth needs to be out there so we can get our country into order. If we keep playing around we can LOSE are chance to get OUR priorities on What this COUNTRY needs not the wants. So every one running for a office WANTS TO WIN THE ELECTION. But we keep smoke screening AMERICA we will be down the tube to speak. THen all we can do is look back on the chance we LOST. We need to look back on the people that built this COUNTRY. THE PEOPLE that did sweat and cry for the chance to make a diference but to have the chance to do so is the gift Now you have the chance WHAT are we As People going to do.??????????? Cut the Crap Let's get a REAL PRESIDENT into OFFICE.FOR THE PEOPLE.WE ARE THE PEOPLE.386 MEN AND WOMEN HAVE DIED IN IRAQ FOR THESE PEOPLE DONT BELIEVE IN GOD. NOT FREE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

[DemDogs]

78. Kerry second only to Edwards in ideas

And if he gets photo ops to match, that's fine with me. If there were a candidate who didn't actually get along with other people (hypothetically of course) or did not look natural with children (hypothetically of course), he might resent that others can be natural and get those good photos.
Kerry's best pictures of the campaign were a series he did with young children in Baltimore before the CBC debate there. He's not my guy but those were his best photographs.