Howard Dean and Utility Deregulation...

[KaraokeKarlton]

Read it and weep Dean bashers...this talking point is history.

The conference was held as enthusiasm for utility deregulation in Vermont is waning due in part to rate shock and rising prices in California, Maine, and Massachusetts. Even Gov. Howard Dean, once an ardent proponent of electric industry competition, said recently that he was glad the Legislature derailed his administration's drive to deregulate.

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/14542.html

And Vermont Gov. Howard Dean thanked lawmakers for blocking his push to deregulate 31/2 years ago.

How long did it take to change Dean's mind?

"About five minutes once I saw what was happening in California," he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/02/03/power.woes.02/

[Feanorcurufinwe]

1. his push to deregulate

"his administration's drive to deregulate"

Thanks for posting this. I thought perhaps the charges that Dean was pushing to deregulate were apocryphal.

Nice to have the facts straightened out, that Dean did indeed push for deregulation and was blocked by the Vermont legislature.

[KaraokeKarlton]

3. Yes, he did back before other states had a go at it

And he has admitted that position was the wrong one. He is on record as saying so several years ago, long before he started running for president.

He clearly is opposed to deregulation now, so anyone who claims otherwise is lying and will promptly be directed to the above links.

This horse is dead and it's time to stop kicking it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

4. Maybe if we're lucky the Republican Congress will oppose him...

if they can find something they disagree with him on.

How many Republicans in Congress received an "A" rating from the NRA, I wonder? Those folks will be Dean's natural allies.

[madfloridian]

7. KK, I have so many on ignore, I only see you and me.

Just us on this thread. I hate to do that, but since the admins say bashing is ok this is the only way to survive here. Maybe they will put me on ignore, and we will all just ignore each other. Ha Ha.

I never used it until all these folks came here to campaign and fight for the primaries. We are all doing such fine job of bringing the party together.

[sandnsea]

17. "these folks came here"

Well my my, aren't we just miss hoity toity. I didn't know you and your co-Deanie's had a monopoly on DU and nobody was allowed to support anyone but Dean. At least I don't have you on ignore, wonder if you can say the same.

'until all these folks came here' good grief. :eyes:

[blm]

25. It's Dean's CORE priniciples that led him to PUSH for deregulation.

It's those CORE priniciples that run counter to Democratic principles and are more in line with his Libertarian allies. Did he really need to be SHOWN that deregulation fails? Most REAL Democrats already know that as part of THEIR core principles.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

33. Dean's core principles

the governor himself has said the donations buy access. “People who think they’re going to buy a contract or buy some influence are mistaken,” Dean famously said during the debate over a campaign finance reform bill in 1996. “But they do get access — there’s no question about that. ...They get me to return their phone calls.”

Advocates of public financing for campaigns complain about the message conveyed by the contributions.

“Administration actions going back some years betray an inappropriate coziness with the utilities,” said Paul Burns, executive director of the Vermont Public Service Research Group. “I am not prepared to say it’s a result of contributions given. But these contributions present the appearance of impropriety or appearance of influence that it probably would have been better to avoid.”

Dean’s close relationship with utility representatives dates back to the day he became governor in 1991. A lobbyist for Green Mountain Power and a GMP employee were among the first people Dean called in to help his transition.
http://timesargus.com/Archive/Articles/Article/43125

[genius]

2. Campaign conversion

Let me know when he doesn't change his position to be popular.

[KaraokeKarlton]

5. That one won't work, either

He changed his position long before he started running for president. Just because your candidate tries to keep his positions consistent with what the polls tell him to doesn't mean all candidates operate that way.

[JohnKleeb]

8. Are you trying to say that Kucinich follows what the polls are saying

Maybe you thought Genius was a Kerry supporter or someone, but Kucinich doesnt play to the polls he plays to what many myself included feel is right.

[sfecap]

12. The right to choose.

He changed his mind when he realized his stance was not popular with his supporters.

[KaraokeKarlton]

19. genius supports Kerry, not Kucinich

Kucinich has been pretty consistent. I don't care for him as a candidate, but I don't disrespect him as I do Kerry.

[blm]

22. Shows how UNcomprehensive you are. genius supports DK.

He used to support Dean but felt hoodwinked when he discovered Dean was nowhere near as liberal as many first assumed based on Dean's rhetoric.

[dsc]

24. He claims he used to support Dean

I don't think he produced an iota of proof to back that claim up.

[blm]

32. Heh...he used to fight with me all the time back then.

I think I know who I battled with personally, dsc.

He often told me I was bashing Dean when I pointed to his centrist record. After awhile, genius researched more and discovered Dean WAS a centrist and too conservative to support. I think his anger now comes from feeling fooled by Dean's rhetoric earlier this year.

[JohnKleeb]

40. How are you supposed to back that up

exactly. Serious do you think he like kept like a log or something and btw there was a time where I kinda supported Dean myself not wholeheartly but he was my prefered candiate back in the day lol when you guys were like how we are now lol, amazing how the times change. I wasnt full heartly for him and no I dont have any proof, I dont record my every thoughts. Look I dont like the way genius attacks Dean but I would be lying to myself if I didnt say he does good for Kucinich too. btw theres a few bad apples in each campaign.

[dsc]

23. No he is a Kucinich supporter

I don't know why he doesn't have an avitar but he is a Kucinich supporter. Unlike the vast majority of them he behaves like the worst of the Kerry supporters but he isn't.

[JohnKleeb]

41. I think I would know

:D.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

10. Is there an issue Dean hasn't changed his mind about?

[AP]

14. He didn't change it so much that energy didn't give him seed cash in '02

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/43125.html

Nearly a fifth of the roughly $111,000 collected in its first months by Dean’s presidential political action committee, the Fund for a Healthy America, came from people with ties to Vermont’s electric utilities, according to a recent Federal Elections Commission filing.

[sfecap]

6. Can we talk...

About Kucinich's flip flop on abortion, just before his decision to run?

Let me know when he doesn't change his position to be popular.

[madfloridian]

9. Ok, I can see you. 3 of are not on ignore. Should not be this way.

:-(

[JohnKleeb]

11. I am not on your ignore? hope I am not

I dont try to piss people off although I did lose my temper tonight on something but it was petty bs. I just wish people would had listened to me on monday, I had a thread about the fucking fighting which mostly goes on between Dean and Kerry supporters here, and you know what it disappeared on the first tonight. I feel sorry for all those who have grown frustrated over this, I know I have. I still feel very :argh: at times but I like to think I can keep it good. I really do try and that is what I try to even though there are so many times where I wish I could fucking yell and believe me I could if I wanted to but I dunno.

[madfloridian]

13. No, I would not ignore you.

Those who have just one goal, who refuse to even think or debate, who are here for a purpose, that is who I ignore.

There is no excuse for all this to keep going on. It is with the blessing of the admins, though, so it makes it hard to stop it.

You always try to see good in all candidates. I would not ignore you.

[JohnKleeb]

15. thanks

[Feanorcurufinwe]

16. "an inappropriate coziness with the utilities"

Over the years, the governor has sided with the utilities on many of the most pressing issues, including the push for deregulation of the electric industry, and later backing away from that as a goal. Among other major decisions:

— After years of pushing for the companies to absorb the excess costs of their expensive contract with Hydro-Quebec, Dean’s Department of Public Service agreed to let ratepayers be billed for more than 90 percent of what those excess costs are expected to be in the coming years. The extra costs will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

— The department also agreed to allow the utilities to sell Vermont Yankee to a Pennsylvania company for a price that was expected to be $23.8 million by the time the deal closed. Shortly before the Public Service Board was to make a final decision on that sale, another company stepped in and offered more than seven times as much. That sale to Entergy Nuclear Corp. is currently before the board.

— After it became clear in the late 1990s that selling Vermont Yankee was a top goal of the utilities, the administration failed to heed warnings for more than two years that the money the nuclear plant was paying for emergency planning was much less than was needed. An administration official said there was concern about interfering with the sale.

“The Dean administration knew explicitly (about the worries about emergency preparedness) and deliberately didn’t do anything about it in order to help CV and GMP sell the plant,” said James Dumont, a lawyer for the New England Coalition On Nuclear Pollution. “They didn’t bite the hand that fed them.”
http://timesargus.com/Archive/Articles/Article/43125

[sandnsea]

18. He also supported a coal plant

until most of the State flew into a fit. I'm sure you know that.

And the issue doesn't just go away because Howard changed his mind. The whole point is what kind of Democrat is he that he can be led astray on some fairly basic Democratic ideals. At least for me that's the point. I can see him looking into various ideas for supplying energy to Vermont. But it just amazes me how many times he starts off on the wrong foot and has to be knocked in the right direction. It just doesn't seem like he really has Democratic values in his heart of hearts and if he's the President with a Republican Congress, I would have extra worries about what would happen.

[KaraokeKarlton]

20. It was a granite plant and Annette Smith flew into a fit

because she didn't want trucks driving past her property. Nevermind that the company has one of the damn best environmental records in the state, and has other plants in the state that have exceptional environmental records. You should not get your talking points from "Vermont Progressives" because they aren't Democrats, they are further left than the Green party, and yes, it's a Political Party. They criticize Democrats unfairly for political gain. I'm sure they thank you for repeating their attacks on the Democratic Party.

:eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

26. "governor's short-lived proposal for a coal-fired power plant in Vermont"

A leading environmentalist was asked to leave Gov. Howard Dean's council of environmental advisers after she criticized the governor's short-lived proposal for a coal-fired power plant in Vermont.

Elizabeth Courtney, executive director of the Vermont Natural Resources Council, was one of 20 members of the governor's environmental council, which meets about once every three months with the governor.

But after Courtney wrote a newspaper opinion piece faulting Dean for his brief advocacy of a coal plant, she learned she was no longer welcome on the council. David Rocchio, the governor's legal counsel, wrote her late last month to say she will be replaced on the council by VNRC's board chairman. The move came after she had written the governor on energy issues and showed his staff her draft newspaper piece, Courtney said.
http://timesargus.nybor.com/Archive/Articles/Article/23996

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. Dean reiterated his support for building a coal-fired electric generating

Gov. Howard Dean reiterated his support for building a coal-fired electric generating plant in northwestern Vermont Wednesday, saying the state needs to diversify its power generating supply.

<snip>

Dean said, Vermont needs to expand its power generating capacity, and not limit itself to natural gas as source for generation.

"We're going to see rolling blackouts if our major source is natural gas," Dean said.

<snip>

"It's clearly the wrong approach," Steve Blackledge, director of New Hampshire Public Interest Research Group, said Wednesday. "Coal plants pollute more than other fossil fuels. And if Governor Dean wants diversity in fuel source, he should be pushing clean renewables."

Officials and environmentalists in New England have complained that pollutants released from coal-burning plants in the Midwest drift into the region as acid rain.
http://www.rutlandherald.com/legislature/mar19/deanrenews.html

[Feanorcurufinwe]

31. Dean said Vermont needs a new power plant and that it should be coal-fired

New Hampshire environmentalists are dismayed that Vermont Gov. Howard Dean would consider building a coal-fired power plant in the northwestern part of his state.

On a call-in radio show Tuesday, Dean said Vermont needs a new power plant and that it should be coal-fired. He acknowledged the move would be controversial, but said his state needs the power.

In a later interview with The Associated Press, Dean seemed to back off the proposal, saying he was just trying to provoke debate. But he wouldn't entirely discount the possibility of such a plant.

''I think coal's definitely on the table if you can find the technology to make it clean enough. ... I don't want to underplay the idea of a coal plant,'' he said.
http://www.vtce.org/coal.html

[blm]

21. Thanks the LEGISLATURE...not Dean.

It was Dean's CORE principles that had him pushing deregulation in the first place. It's his CORE principles that I distrust immensely.

He needs to be SHOWN failure, when the rest of the Democrats using their Democratic principles were trying to AVOID it in the first place?

[Larkspur]

27. Dean a failure?

If leading the state from a deficit to a surpluse, from the worse bond rating to the best is failure, I don't what your kind of Democrats leading this country, blm.

[AP]

29. What state didn't go to surplus in those years? As for the bond raiting...

As for that bond raiting, I have no idea how much you can influence the bond rating firms, but I'd say that Dean, more than most governors, with his family connections to Wall St, might be a sympathetic favorite among the bond rating firms. And I should also note that the bond raters haven't been afraid to screw states like CA and countries like Chile if it meant that the economic squeeze might help Republicans.

Ok, that definitely sounds hysterical. But, given the circumstances, I'd rather compare the data upon which bond raters relied to raise VT's bond rating to other states, just to be safe. There is a whiff of "well, ExxonMobil gave Bush high ratings in TX" in arguing that Wall St approved of Dean.

(Perhaps the Wall St rating was BECAUSE Dean was willing to sell off state assets -- and some of them very cheap, which I think is the implication of that article bleow.)

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

37. Please read the post again, you have sorely misinterpreted it.

I said that Dean needed to be SHOWN that dereg was a failure, because his core priniciples were NOT those of the real Democrats who were fighting to STOP deregulation. They did NOT need to be shown.

[DrFunkenstein]

30. This Man Is Visionary!!!

I love a man who gets it right the second time! I'll never mention deregulation again with this hindsight visionary. I've got a Monday morning football league I think he'd be perfect for.

This is on par with Dean saying he would be an "honest broker" after he made the mistake of promising 4x the military aid and 5x the loan guarantees to Ariel Sharon. I'm so glad he renounced those pledges...or didn't, doesn't really matter. What matters is that he said he would be an "honest broker."

<>

[Rose Siding]

35. Facts vs ideology

Thanks KK. This illustrates Dean's core principles. I've heard him say that once facts are presented that contradict one conclusion, you go with the new facts. That's wisdom. Repubs NEVER do that.

Clinton said the same thing when distinguishing between Dems and repubs: As Dems, we try something and if it doesn't work, we fix it. We even admit it if we're wrong. When you're in a hole, you don't keep digging.

[DrFunkenstein]

36. Allow Me To Repeat Myself

I love a man who gets it right the second time! I'll never mention deregulation again with this hindsight visionary. I've got a Monday morning football league I think he'd be perfect for.

[blm]

38. Dems arguing AGAINST deregulation showed him facts Dean ignored.

That was the time to assess facts, not only after a collosal failure like California.

[AP]

39. That isn't wisdom. That's a campaign strategy and a slogan he needs to

take root in people's minds so that they don't wonder to much about why he wasn't really a democrat until about 2000. Suddenly, all the facts came in after Gore lost and it looked like the 2004 dem primaries would be an open race.

Clinton meant that Democrats are willing to try LIBERAL policies. It's a direct reference to FDR and the new deal. FDR stood for the things that were the OPPOSITE of the kinds of energy deregulation embarked upon in VT.