Dean referred to as 'Ultimate panderer'

[quinnox]

An article from the Des Moines Register about a candidates forum in Iowa had this to say at the end:

Two other observations from Wednesday's event:

* Winners: Gephardt and Kerry. The two were forceful, informed and presidential- looking.

* Ultimate panderer: Dean. The former Vermont governor once referred to "us rural people" during his remarks. Right. (Born to a wealthy family in small-town New York City, Dean attended that one-room prep school, St. Georges in Rhode Island, before donning his manure-caked boots and heading to that great land-grant college, Yale.)

http://www.dmregister.com/opinion/stories/c5917686/22505808.html

I think that sums up Dean well - he is an expert in pandering. Although there are those that can see right through him.

[dsc]

1. He has lived in Vermont since 1978

and yes Vermont is rural. I take it that if I move to a city I am not entitled to say we urban people since I was born in a small town. Is that really your contention? If so, then what may I call myself in that case?

[frogczar]

2. as if

I think you must be thinking of how Kerry and Gephardt both "pandered" to Bush and Co. with the blank check they gave him to go to war.

Dean doesn't pander, Dean leads.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

4. The epitome of political pandering

Dean says:

"We have to stop terrorism before peace negotiations"
http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.11.22/news3.html

to a publication aimed at a Jewish audience, and

said he didn't "believe stopping the terror has to be a prerequisite for talking."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/10/elec04.prez.dean.mideast/

to a general audience. No pandering here, folks, move along, nothing to see here...

[dsc]

6. What he won't tell you in his post

is that Israel changed its position on negotiations. While I don't think Israel's position should be dispositive it should certainly be considered. Maybe Kerry thinks that if Israel wishes to negotiate we should tell them they can't but I am glad Dean doesn't.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

14. What does that have to do the Dean's demonstrated pandering?

Dean said one thing to the Jewish audience of Forward, and then the exact opposite to a general audience. He needs to explain why. Did he change his mind because Israel changed it's position? (The wisdom of that is the subject of a whole other discussion, IMHO.)

[dsc]

16. So you think it is unwise

to let Israel decide to negotiate? I think that is nuts. And since you are making the charge the burden of proof is on you.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

18. I think it is dishonest

to say one thing to one audience, something else to another.

And I think you are a little mixed up on whether or not the Sharon government is willing to negotiate with the PA by the way. :eyes:

[dsc]

19. they were negotiating

with that new PA primeminister well now he is the old PA prime minister but then he was new.

[AP]

28. Kerry just stopped payment on that check

I think.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

39. Good one!

:thumbsup:

[cindyw]

43. Haha...hadn't thought of it that way.

:toast:

[CMT]

3. I think they were all pandering

but Dean saying "us rural folks" is referring to his current homestate, Vermont, which, like much of Iowa is predominately rural. David Yepsen is often very negative in his reporting on Dean, and apparently some Iowans here have said he is fairly conservative, so I don't know.

[drfemoe]

56. he is

consistently negative on Dean. If he hasn't gotten emails, letters, etc yet, he will .. not that it will make him change his reporting .. anyone with an open mind can see through his slanted agenda.

[Trajan]

5. DAMN ! .... I hate those who try to ....

gratuitously cast SHIT on our own candidates like this .....

Is this the BEST you can do ?? ....

CMON ! ......

and I thought the Clark haters were bad .....

[quinnox]

8. Huh?

So you don't like that a newspaper reporter cast Dean in a less than glowing light? I suggest you write or e-mail the website, and demand they remove this story immediately!

[ProfessorPlum]

9. I'm rather unimpressed with you as well

as the reporter. Or are those comments in the lead post not yours?

[quinnox]

11. The comments underneath the link

are mine, the comments above the link are from the story, which I agree with.

[ProfessorPlum]

15. then quit the mock protests when people

call you on your shit.

[sfecap]

7. You left out the part where Kerry got booed...

When he tried to attack Dean. LOL.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[quinnox]

12. answers

1. Yes it does
2. And the sun rises everyday too.
3. I know the drill, anytime criticism is leveled at Dean they must be a rightwinger.
4. You are completely wrong, and I look forward to voting in Kerry, Edwards or Gephardt in 2004.

[XanaDUer]

13. LOL!

The post makes voting for Dean look like a punishment.

[LuminousX]

17. Let me get this straight

Because Dean considers himself a 'rural person' he is pandering? Exactly how long does someone have to live in a rural state before he/she is considered rural? Or is it the fact he hasn't worked on a farm or ranch? I grew up in rural Montana but I didn't work on a farm or ranch either. Does that mean I can't claim to be rural. How about the fact that I left Montana when I was 18 and only returned in the summers until I was 21. That means Dean has been in a rural state for 25 years and I was only there for roughly twenty. I still think I'm rural, why can't Dean?

Someone post the standards of what a rural person is, please, so I can fully understand just how egregiously Dean has pandered.

[9119495]

20. I know Yepsen

Yepsen is a Republican. I read the register (and live in Iowa) He writes about four-five times a week. He has been in favor of Dean getting the nomination but mostly because he didn't think he could win. He has also said that a candidate MUST get the elderly vote in Iowa because they reliably attend the caucuses--so republicans pander to tham to--e.g. "compassionate conservative."

I finally got the link to work and I appologize for my earlier angry post, but lets get the facts here. I am guessing the thread oringinator would be skeptical of Republican claims about his or her candidate, so I would hope that same courtesey would be extended here. And if not, consult Yepsen's other articles for harsh comments made about Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, etc....

[Padraig18]

21. Isn't it amazing?

I'm absolutely amazed at the amount of time some people have to look for deliberately offensive news articles and headlines, rather than devoting time to posting something positive about THEIR candidate... maybe it's because they HAVE nothing positive to say abot him or her, do you think? :eyes:

[LuminousX]

22. Tear Down the Front Runner

It is what they have to do. I don't begrudge them for doing it. Dean had to do it when he was unknown. He now only has to hit them once in awhile to keep them in place. The anti-Dean crowd are grasping at straws. I seriously don't know what they are trying to achieve.

[Padraig18]

23. They're only demonstrating the weakness of their own positions.

What next, I wonder? "Hi Mommy dresses him funny?" :eyes:

[indigo32]

24. I saw this forum on C-Span 2

I watched it with someone who is not overly enamored with Dean... he's actually leaning to Clark, likes Edwards alot too.
We were both VERY impressed with Deans performance.
Kerry, while not unimpressive... has a disturbing tendancy to very clumsily segway into the subject he WANTS to talk about.
Dean answers the questions... and in a way that makes sense.

[DrFunkenstein]

25. Are You Suggesting That Dean Would

Mention the black roommates he ordered for college as his race credentials? Speak Spanish at a New Mexico debate? Talk about his brother to establish his anti-Vietnam credentials? Use graffiti in uptown Manhattan (not up-uptown, of course) to establish his street cred? Drop the name of an obscure Wyclef Jean song to connect with the hip-hop nation?

Dean is above politics as usual.

"Then there was the Imageering 101 political staging, a subject of much snickering in the press pool. At most every stop Dean had a statistically accurate multicultural microcosm await his arrival on stage, usually against a background of a giant American flag. Milwaukee, the second stop on the tour, was the most painful: seventeen supporters of various races (in proper proportions: three blacks, two Hispanics, etc.), frozen and seemingly afraid to move or make a face against the backdrop of a mammoth Old Glory. Watching them wait for Dean gave me shivers; they looked like sausages nailed to a giant red, white and blue crucifix."

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031006&c=5&s=taibbi

"But it was hard not to notice that all the people surrounding Dean were veterans of the same-old, same-old Democratic Party. Dean campaign manager Joe Trippi is a longtime Democratic political consultant who has worked on the campaigns of Edward Kennedy, Walter Mondale and Gary Hart, and in 1988 he even worked for current Dean opponent Dick Gephardt.

Trip coordinator Matt Vogel worked for Gore, as did Kelly McMahon, Dana Singiser, Aram Kailian, Patricia Enright (who was Gore's deputy director of communications) and numerous other Dean operatives appearing at one time or another on the Sleepless Summer Tour."

[dsc]

26. Gasp he hired experienced people

I just can't believe he did that. I, for one, never look for experienced people to fix my car, treat my illnesses, or if I had some invest my money. As to the rest, he mentioned his brother in one interview after being directly asked. I have literally never seen him brought up in any stump speech. I also fail to see what is wrong with having a representative audience and if I weren't used to a crown, as presumedly many of those people weren't, I would be nervous too.

[DrFunkenstein]

54. "Representative Audience?"

That's one way to put it. "Cheap exploitation?" "Quota pandering?"

I'm sure Dean judged his phot ops by the content of their character.

[dsc]

55. I'll tell you what

what to bet that every single Democrat does the exact same thing. Wanna make book on it?

[Octafish]

27. Stupid Panderer.

The guy's a stupid draft-dodging pandering BUM!

[indigo32]

29. Have you got anything of value to add to this conversation?

just a question.

[Octafish]

30. I'm glad you asked. The ex-governor ex-doctor ex-stockbroker is more...

... than a stupid panderer. He's a stooge for Wall Street. Need links?

Dean thinks hiding his records as governor is smart. He asked for them to be covered up for 20 years, but "settled" for 10, which is still four more than any other Vermont governor needed.

http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/vpr/news/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=441887

Dean panders to whatever group he's speaking to. When he addressed Marian Wright Edelman, founder of the Children's Defense Fund, he said he didn't really mean it when he said:

"Liberals like Marian Wright Edelman are wrong."

http://www.progress.org/2003/sol125.htm

Want more? I'd be glad to oblige.

[indigo32]

31. Oh Oh that it's

I'm done with Dean... ya got me Oh Oh...

perhaps his actions like here....
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_record_education_children

in the name of children mean more to me than words.

at least he connects with his audience... unlike your candidate.

[Octafish]

60. Thanks for pointing that out, indigo!

While I hadn't noticed, you do have a point. There are many posters on DU who, for their own good reasons, believe as you do. It may be that they don't like Kerry's Senatorial speaking style. "Whereas." "Notion." "Policy." Truth be told, I don't care for it much, either, on the stump. What I would recommend is Kerry talk about how he's gone after the BFEE. Unlike any other candidate, Sen. Kerry could say (quotes invented for examples only):

"I went after BCCI, a bank used by the world's drug-dealers, terrorists, money-launderers, and intelligence agencies to bribe elected officials around the world and here at home in America."

"I uncovered drug-dealers were using their connections to Ollie North and Vice President Bush to import cocaine and make money for an illegal war in Central America. For my trouble, the FBI investigated me — a sitting US Senator."

There are many more.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

63. The Kerry Paradox:

1. The anti-BFEE candidate!!!

2. Trusted Chimp to do the right thing regarding the UN, coalition-building and Iraq. (Iow, what he claims his IWR vote was all about.)

3. Voted to grant unprecedented power to BFEE crony Ashcroft via the PA.


Square #1 with #2 and #3. That's the "Kerry Paradox."


Let me get this straight. Kerry is such a force of anti-BFEE crusading power that I should give him my vote. Yet weren't the IWR and PA two of the most powerful tools ever given to a POTUS*? Or is it part of his master plan to take them down by giving them MORE power? Face it. Kerry's anti-BFEE days ended in the 1980's, back when he was trying to make a name for himself. He's establishment all-the-way these days. Sometimes the truth hurts.

If that's exposing the BFEE, maybe we should have someone else do it. :shrug: This "anti-BFEE" crap is demonstrable bullshit.

[sfecap]

32. Speaking of pandering...

In 1992, for example, Kerry announced he was going to launch an initiative on race, crime, and the problems of urban America. He gave the opening speech of a promised series at Yale University, warning about the costs of a "culture of dependency. . . . We must ask whether is the result of a massive shift in the psychology of our nation that some argue grew out of the excesses of the 1960s, a shift from self-reliance to indulgence and dependence, from caring to self-indulgence, from public accountability to public abdication and chaos," the former antiwar protester said.

(snip)

It was a daring speech for a liberal politician. To some, it appeared as if Kerry was genuflecting toward Little Rock, where Bill Clinton was running for president on a platform that included personal accountability, "ending welfare as we know it," and support for capital punishment -- and might need a northern Democrat to balance the ticket that November. After Clinton chose a fellow southerner, Senator Al Gore of Tennessee, as his running mate, Kerry quietly dropped the series of speeches he had promised to make on race relations.

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/062103_p.shtml

[Octafish]

37. If I was advising him, I'd have recommended he make the speeches.

More than likely, Kerry had something more important to do. Let's see...1992... Oh yeah, he was fighting Ollie North-CIA-Iran-Contra drug smugglers, the FBI, corruption at the highest levels of government and business, and the Poppy Bush Justice Department and White House. Don't believe me, GOOGLE it.

Kerry's report, from the Federation of American Scientists website:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/

Slower download, but lots of info:

http://www.the-catbird-seat.net/BCCI.htm

For more advanced reading:

http://www.annenberg.nwu.edu/pubs/news/news03.htm


BTW: What was Ho-Ho doing then? I don't remember him standing up to government corruption?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

48. I'd guess

he also didn't want to steal any thunder from the Presidential campaign underway.

[Octafish]

50. Sen. Kerry is a team player.

That's what makes the best skippers.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

41. Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the word

'pandering'?

In what sense was not giving these speeches pandering?
On a related note, in another thread you characterize this as a lie.
Do you mean because he first announced plans to give a series of speeches, and then didn't give them, that his announcement was a lie?

I suppose you could characterize it that way. Let's compare it to a statement of Dean's that I have characterized as a lie:

"Sen. Bob Packwood (R-Ore.): I've said many times that I think we should raise the retirement age about the year 2015—raise it by that time to about age 70.

"Howard Dean: I am very pleased to hear Bob Packwood because I absolutely agree we need to reduce the—I mean, to increase the retirement age. There will be cuts and losses of some benefits, but I believe that Sen. Packwood is on exactly the right track."
—CNN's Crossfire, Feb. 28, 1995
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086804/

Here we have Dean on the record as supporting raising the retirement age.

Russert: ...calling for that, and this is what Howard Dean said. “The way to balance the budget, Dean said, is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut almost everything else. ‘It would be tough but we could do it,’ he said.”
Dean: Well, we fortunately don’t have to do that now.
Russert: We have a $500 billion deficit.
Dean: But you don’t have to cut Social Security to do that.
Russert: But why did you have to do it back then?
Dean: Well, because that was the middle of—I mean, I don’t recall saying that, but I’m sure I did
--Meet the Press, June 22, 2003
http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

Here we have Dean being reminded, and acknowledging, on national TV on June 22 that he did hold this position.

"I have never favored Social Security retirement at the age of 70, nor do I favor one of 68."
—AFL-CIO Democratic presidential candidate forum, Aug. 5, 2003
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086804/

Here we have Dean denying on national TV on August 5 that he ever held that position.


So Kerry 'lied' when he announced a series of speeches and then didn't give them.

And Dean lied about whether or not he ever favored raising the retirement age.

The voters can decide which 'lie' is more relevant.

[ProfessorPlum]

35. Let go your hate.

Embrace the love!

[Octafish]

36. It's not hate. It's trust — As in "Whom I trust to be Chief Executive."

From what I've seen, read, heard, and responded to, Howard Dean is nowhere near my second choice. It's nothing personal against you, Professor, or any other Dean supporter, even those who insult my candidate. It has everything to do with who is qualified to solve the problems facing the United States and meet the new ones coming over the horizon.

No matter what, I appreciate what you said. Shanti.

[ProfessorPlum]

33. Wait - maybe he meant "ultimate" in the sense of "last"

Was Dean last to speak that day? :)

Maybe they were all pandering. Kerry might have been the "penultimate panderer".

[indigo32]

34. just an opinion piece

I watched it on C-SPan and thought he rocked the house
but that was just my opinion ;)

[Cha]

38. Cool! Dean Rocked the House!

:toast:

[DemBones DemBones]

45. Got pom-poms? n/t

[w4rma]

40. Pandering is what opponents call trying to connect with constituancies

If you aren't pandering you aren't winning. Calling someone a panderer is just a way to try to get them to shut up and get back into line.

I hope Dean panders to rural folks lots and lots and lots. And I hope that all the politicians do lots of pandering and the Republican politicians do no pandering whatsoever.

[VermontDem2004]

42. Sorry to inform you on this

ALL the candidates pander.

[LuminousX]

44. But Dean is the ULTIMATE... He's #1 !! (nt)

.

[snoochie]

52. Oh really?

O8)

;)

[dsc]

57. deleted post

sorry brain spasm

[genius]

46. I notice he changes his positions on a regular basis.

Unfortunately, his worst positions were the ones he acted on in Vermont and his better positions are at the right time to be called a campaign conversion. But then he still has trouble keeping his positions straight and has been called on this by both the L.A. Times and the N.Y. Times after debates.

[w4rma]

51. Genius is parroting a lie (n/t)

[drfemoe]

58. I think you are a parrot

you read that somewhere, so now you just keep repeating it without actually looking at any facts. You think Saddam did 9/11 don't you?

If you pay attention at all you know that the coalition leader is very inflexible, demanding his own way on every issue. His opponents become 'irrelevant'.

However, it is considered a sign of "SANITY" to be able to change plans, to remain flexible. Rigid and inflexible, inability to get along with others, my way at all costs are signs of possible mental 'illness' (addiction) or at least maladaptive behavior.

Are you so inflexible that you can't see the advantage in changing a position when needed?

[Rose Siding]

47. Insults from a columnist who wants Iowa to

solve budget problems by forcing public employee unions to allow fuloughs, expansion of gambling and NO TAX HIKES!

The head of the GOP says bad things about Dean, too. I wonder if they know about the other candidates yet?

[killbotfactory]

49. "Dean is the ultimate!" - DAVID YEPSEN

[Upfront]

53. Yawn

Kerry is going no where.

[stickdog]

59. The funniest thing about the article is that Des Moines is more urban than

almost ANYPLACE in VT.

[Padraig18]

61. Hmmm...

Why are these 3 week-old posts suddenly being kicked to the top of P&C again? It causes one to wonder...

[polpilot]

62. Maybe they meant Ultimate Winner!!!

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The NEW Democratic Party!