To all the Kerry supporting Dean bashers out there

[dsc]

Why if Dean should happen to lose after you and your candidate smears him do you think people like me should vote for your candidate or give him money? Other than the fact Bush is evil, which admittedly is a big selling point, why do you think I would have even an ounce of enthusiasm for your candidate after you have villified not only Dean but his supporters? I would really like to hear some rationale which makes you think I would ever vote for him in a primary after your behavoir here. For the record he was my number two for virtually the entire campaign. Now, thanks to both his and your anctics, he is second to last. If somehow Dean falters in NH your candidate may well need my vote in Ohio's early March primary. You have basicly assured it of going to Dennis if Dean drops out. Is that really what your purpose was. I can't imagine I am the only Dean supporter who feels this way.

[metisnation]

1. Primaries

I will vote for whoever I decide in the primaries, but should my condidate not win, I will still vote for whoever Democrat that does!!!!!!


:kick:

[dsc]

2. I will as well

but I must admit I am getting more and more bitter with this as days pass and frankly it will be very hard to be enthusiastic. I also am virtually certain to not vote for Kerry in the primaries no matter how Dean does and no matter who the other choice may be.

[Upfront]

3. Hear Hear

kerry was my number two and now he is dead last.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

10. Since you decided to post this in response to me

please cite my doing what you just said.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrPeepers]

5. To all you Dean supporting Kerry bashers out there

Why don't you heed your own advice? I respected Dean for a while. No longer. Guess who's dead last on my list? Governor Howard Dean. Why? I think you ought to know. Why should I have any enthusiasm for YOUR candidate, when he and you have committed the very same actions you complain about. What is this very thread but a bash against Kerry and his supporters? I can't imagine I'm the only Kerry supporter who feels this way.

Peepers

[Northwind]

7. It doesn't matter

There are not enough Kerry supporters to make a difference. :evilgrin:

[DemBones DemBones]

48. Add in all the supporters of other candidates to the Kerry

supporters and you've got a problem. :evilgrin:

[XanaDUer]

8. You're not.

I guess "bashing" is in the eye of the beholder.

[mandyky]

6. Did I miss something?

Has Kerry been dissing Dean worse than normal?

Tell ya between the Clarkies and the Kerrys, not sure what I'll do if Dean doesn't win the nomination. I live in KY, which has a May primary (I think), so if Dean drops out before then, I doubt I'll vote in the primary. With shrub, I have to vote for the Dem nominee, but fake enthusiasm and donations are highly unlikely.

[w4rma]

16. I think folks are just flat out fed up with the Dean smearing.

Examples taken from *only* the *first* page of this forum:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=61828
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=61876
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=62161&mesg_id=62166
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=61462
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=60753
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=61632
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=61897&mesg_id=61978
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=61310&mesg_id=61418
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=38692
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=61505
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=61679&mesg_id=61734

[paulk]

106. if you consider criticism a smear

you need to get a thicker skin. Most of the posts you allude to are just that: cricism.

[DrFunkenstein]

9. Pots And Kettles

Again, the Dean people are an endless source of bitter humor.

Dsc, you have been here at least as long as I have, and you have seen me go from having Dean legitimately be my #2 choice to 2nd to last (sorry Joe). Why? Because his supporters have consistently bashed my choice to the point where I don't even give a damn anymore. I have made a point to stick to legitimate criticisms, but have done so much more angrily. Not the most rational response, but I suppose months of attacks have their cumulative effect.

I still don't think Dean is the anti-Christ, but I think he has run a nasty campaign from the start, and encouraged the same mentality from his supporters. I will never forget the Kerry=Bush sign next to Dean before the New Mexico debate. People said he had no control over that, but I think he did.

I also think Dean has run his campaign based on the IWR vote he never had. It was a fine way to get into the door, but I'm really surprised that he hasn't switched over to a real platform yet. And finally, the hypocrisy of his thin-skinned responses to the people he's bashed for months drove me off the edge.

So for now its Kerry in front, with Clark and Edwards battling it out for the #2 spot. Kucinich has always occupied a special place for me, but its hard for me to really put him in the running. I will, of course, vote for Dean - but I don't think I want much part of a campaign that incites the levels of zealotry I've seen here on DU.

[dsc]

11. Since you directed this so persoanly toward me

please cite my doing this. I am waiting. and I will ask repeatedly.

[DrFunkenstein]

13. Don't Take It Personally

"Dsc, you have been here at least as long as I have, and you have seen me go from having Dean legitimately be my #2 choice to 2nd to last (sorry Joe). Why? Because his supporters have consistently bashed my choice to the point where I don't even give a damn anymore."

If you look at my entire post, I always talk about "Dean supporters," and never anything resembling "you and the other Dean supporters."

I mentioned you by name because you've watched the whole thing unfold.

[dsc]

15. It should also be noted that nearly all of them are gone

I can count on one hand, and don't even need all the fingers to do so, the number of Kerry bashing Dean supporters left on DU. On the other hand I now of only one Dean basher of any persuasion (I haven't a clue who Scott H supported) who has been banned.

[DrFunkenstein]

104. Would You Like Me To Name Names?

There are a couple right here on this thread.

[dsc]

111. Yeah I would

I would like the names of people who have been doing this say in the period of from about 3 months ago to the period of about a month ago. I want those names of people who trash Kerry threads.

[Duder]

22. Kerry = Bush

Could you post this photo that you've mentioned several times?
I may have read the sign differently if it's the one I'm thinking of, which is why I'd like to examine it again.

TIA

[LuminousX]

12. Obviously, I'm ABB, but

Yeah, being inundated with anti-Dean threads that are nothing more than one local columnist somewhere who didn't get hot coffee at a Dean event speculating that Dean is being funded by a UFO cult get really annoying.

I've stated before that in the primaries if I don't get to vote for Dean, I'm not voting. As for the general election, well, ABB. Now, will I willingly volunteer to work side by side with people who were calling me names, telling me that my love for Dean blinds me to the truth, etc.? We'll have to see.

[DemDogs]

17. Geez, when did we quit being Democrats?

You can do what you want. I will support the Democratic candidate and I don't care whether the supporters or the candidate himself (or herself) says nasty things about the candidate I support. I hope for a candidate whose integrity I trust, but I don't care if the candidates or their supporters say why their candidate should beat your candidate.

You need to know that this response (by whomever made) sounds juvenile and petulant. And this kind of an attitude is really likely to drive supporters away from your candidate. So do what you want. But every day when the fight is on between the Democratic candidate and Bush, when you are sitting on the sidelines having a tantrum because a candidate won whose supporters were not nice to your candidate, I hope you are lonely and that all the other Democrats are working to get Bush out of office.

[dsc]

18. I am an anyone but Bush

but in the primaries (hint those are the elections Democrats vote in) I won't vote Kerry. And I must say I will not work hard with people who show such disrespect.

[AP]

23. Why do you think this doesn't cut both ways?

Do you think you're representing your candidate in a way that isn't turning off the 75% or so of voters who haven't put him on the top of their dancecards?

Personally, because I don't think I'm a total idiot who has lost touch with reality, I'm not attributing anything I read here at DU to a candidate (unless its written by Clark's son, or Kerry's step-son, or somebody who actually has some authority to speak for their campaigns).

But you, dsc, seem to have a problem with holding yoursefl to the same standards to which you hold others.

In another thread here, you went on a rampage calling people liars left and right because you thought they called Dean a liar. Now you're telling people you're not voting for their candidates if they offend you, yet you have no problem going out of your way offending people in a really persistent and aggressive manner. Well maybe not persistent and aggressive. I'm not sure how to characterize the way you engage in threads I'm in, and I'm not going to speak for others. I'll let them speak for themsleves.

[w4rma]

25. AP, you're one of the bashers

Examples taken from *only* the *first* page of this forum:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=61828
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=61876
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=62161&mesg_id=62166
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=61462
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=60753
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=61632
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=61897&mesg_id=61978
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=61310&mesg_id=61418
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=38692
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=61505
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=61679&mesg_id=61734

And you and one Kucinich supporter each have one post in this list. The rest are from Kerry supporters, as far as I know.

[dsc]

27. I called two people disemblers

One had falsely stated I hadn't criticised a Dean supporter for a particular post when I had.

One had said that both that they hadn't read a thread and that the thread was well documented. They also maintained that a thread entitled "Dean is a dishonest, lying politician" hadn't called Dean a name.

I stand behind both of those characterizations.

I checked to be sure and I used it about two people and once as a general charge. I stand firmly behind the two times I used it specificly but will say I could have been tighter in its use the third time.

[cindyw]

19. Weird, but it applies to us too!

Why if Kerry should happen to lose after you and your candidate smears him do you think people like me should vote for your candidate or give him money? Other than the fact Bush is evil, which admittedly is a big selling point, why do you think I would have even an ounce of enthusiasm for your candidate after you have villified not only Kerry but his supporters? I would really like to hear some rationale which makes you think I would ever vote for him in a primary after your behavoir here. For the record he was my number two for virtually the entire campaign. Now, thanks to both his and your anctics, he is second to last. If somehow Kerry falters in NH your candidate may well need my vote in California's super tuesday primary. You have basicly assured it of going to Clark if Kerry drops out. Is that really what your purpose was. I can't imagine I am the only Kerry supporter who feels this way.

:evilgrin:

Sorry to plagerize, but it was so funny that I could just change the names and it still works

[dsc]

20. Please site where I have smeared Kerry

I am waiting. And yes, that is my point.

[sandnsea]

31. How would we do that?

Is your ego so goddamn big that you think people save every fucking post you ever wrote? I recall you point blank calling me a liar liar liar because you couldn't handle the fact that Dean was waffling on repealing the Bush tax cuts. And you STILL refuse to admit he's waffled on it, even though today's economic plan contradicts his statement's from just a couple of days ago. So get off your goddamn high horse before you fall a little further then you planned to.

[w4rma]

37. You've got a star. Go learn how to use the DU search engine.

:eyes:

[sandnsea]

49. It only goes back a short time

It used to go back a long time, but it doesn't anymore. Otherwise I would.

[dsc]

50. Go to search arcives

it is on the right hand side of the screen when you go to search. Then it will go back for all of DU2. I took forever to figure that out too. BTW happy hunting.

[dsc]

52. I tried to link you to a search by my name

but it didn't work. You will have to do it yourself. There is a clickhere link to search archives on the right side of the search page. You click that first then enter in your search.

[sandnsea]

55. Thanks, I see it now

I actually had never seen that before, thank you.

And I have found a couple of threads where you went after Kerry, called him a fool once. When he made a passing joke about inventing the internet, which is NOTHING compared to Dean's attack on candidates as Washington insiders and then the entire Congress as cockroaches. And of course there's always the one where you called me a liar. So you've got them, not many, but they're there.

[dsc]

57. So out of 330 items

that is what came out of my search, you found 2. Incidently I do stand behind the one on Kerry. Sorry it was utterly foolish to play into Republican spin points on Gore. I don't remember the context of the other so I have no idea if I do or don't stand behind that one. So you found 1 time where I did this out of 330 gee I am so like the worst of your crowd. BTW I apologize now for calling you a liar. It is against the rules so I shouldn't have done it.

[sandnsea]

60. I searched about 10

Really, stand in a corner and count yourself, you're not that fucking important. I'm not going to go through 330 posts.

I'm just saying you've done it, I've done it, lots of people have laid into other candidates and supporters. To post a thread to the 'Kerry supporting Dean bashers' is just another smear to me. Deny what Deanie's do and lay the blame all at somebody else's feet. Then try to figure out why the bashing continues. I tried a while ago to get it to stop, posted a thread recommending we all just back away from bashing threads. Just don't post and the bashers would have to find a constructive way to gain attention. It was when Nicholas J and DJCairo began posting more in 'earnest'. No takers. Deanie's had kind of had their way around here and probably thought they always would. That's when I said, fuck it, if flaming and bashing is what they want, they got it.

So that's where I am today. And I'm not going to let anything so blatantly full of shit as 'Kerry supporting Dean bashers' pass by as if everybody else is angelic.

[JohnKleeb]

62. What I did sand was call attention that both sides do it

You have to call for both sides to stop it. No side is innocent and none guilty 100%. Besides who knows :evilgrin: maybe my candiate will win an upset in the primaries and everything is gonna get better.
Did Nic get banned by chance?

[sandnsea]

67. I know you did

But when a person can't see they're bashing, how can they stop? That's the way I see it. DSC doesn't see the mean-spiritedness of his original post. So how can he not post things like this in the future? It's just not possible. And I can't just sit back and let people roll over Senator Kerry. I tried for a long time to just stay away from flame threads, but there finally came a point where I felt I had to fight. I try to be civil most of the time, but sometimes my temper gets away from me!

I don't know what happened to Nic. It would be too bad if he got banned, he posted alot of excellent information.

I have to say, I suspect if DK were neck and neck in these primaries, you might see people attacking him and get yourself a little riled up too!! I'm afraid we're into the mud-slinging for a while longer though.

[dsc]

63. Look at any days Pand C posts and you tell me who is doing more

and I remember your make peace thread. That was right after you posted something like three hatchet jobs on Dean. I believe I even said OK and defended you then but your timing sucked.

[sandnsea]

68. What??

I can't recall ever initiating a thread about Howard Dean at all. I rarely initiate threads and they're usually about something obscure, like Teresa winning a humanitarian award or appealing for Schweitzer for Governor of Montana. I figure there's enough inane threads on this board, I don't need to add to it.

And at the time I posted my peace thread, I hadn't really been saying much about Dean. So I don't know where you would have gotten the idea I posted hatchet jobs on him. I'd say I've only been doing hatchet jobs in the last month or so. That's because he keeps opening his mouth and saying the most incredible things, like Congress is a bunch of cockroaches. If he'd just quit talking, maybe I wouldn't dislike him so much.

Oh, and DU is more than P&C. GD is better with the new rules, but it used to be just filled with Deanie's and their bashing. It was funny when Clark announced, the Clark supporters were just devoured by the Deanie's and they knew it immediately. The whole idea that it's just Kerry supporters is nauseating and actually adds to my disgust of Dean.

[dsc]

41. No this site has a search engine

you go to it and search by author. Try reading it helps.

[cindyw]

53. Doesn't matter

I repeated it back to Dean supporters in general. Are you saying that only Kerry supporters make Dean people feel this way. No way. Even if you don't smear, a whole lot do. For what you are feeling, others feel too. Why not offer a truce.

I do not know if you are religious, but in the Bible it say that we should take the log out our own eye before we point out the speck in others eyes. In this case I think that you need to look at brother Dean and his supporters before you point out (maybe rightly) the actions of Kerry and his supporters.

[w4rma]

21. Here's why Dean bashers are being singled out.

Examples taken from *only* the *first* page of this forum:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=61828
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=61876
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=62161&mesg_id=62166
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=61462
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=60753
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=61632
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=61897&mesg_id=61978
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=61310&mesg_id=61418
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=38692
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=61505
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=61679&mesg_id=61734

[AP]

24. So, how are we allowed to raise concerns about Dean?

What's the appropriate tone to take?

[w4rma]

26. The tone you took in your

Libertarian thread in the general discussion was great, IMHO. But for gosh sakes don't spam the board with anti-candidate spam and most importantly STAY ON TOPIC. :)

Also, I'm seeing alot of piddley stuff from others. Desperate stuff that just ends up wasting the time of everyone who ends up reading the stuff.

[JohnKleeb]

28. Ive seen Kerry bashing by some of y'all too

I am officially netural honestly. BTW I was told I was whining when I wondered what Dean meant by "cockroaches in congress", I didnt bash or anything I just wondered what he meant and I was told I was whining.

[w4rma]

35. You weren't responded to in this thread so it must have been another

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=60753&mesg_id=61133

Anyway, this thread was started by a Kerry supporter who was taking a Dean quote out of context to smear him, so that's why Kerry was being bashed in it. To show Kerry folks that he ain't perfect, either.

[JohnKleeb]

40. I dont care who started that thread rma

ok. If it sounds fucked up to me too I am gonna agree. I tell you there has been bad things this current congress has done but they have made many good stands and I am proud to support the candiate who led the charge with Nancy Pelosi in the house against it. No I wasnt responded too. I think they know hes not perfect. It goes both ways, both of y'all side's acts like asses at times. Ok, I am gonna bump my thread calling for peace and yea it has me cursing a lot but so be it.

[w4rma]

45. I fully support that thread of yours.

I'll likely kick it up at some point, myself, if you and dsc aren't successful in getting folks to tone things down.

[dsc]

36. and that was flat out wrong

You are my favorite Kucinich supporter and you have represented him awesomely. You are a credit to the man.

[JohnKleeb]

38. I try dsc really hard,

I tell you it goes both ways by god it does. I am not sure who started it really but it goes both ways.

[dsc]

39. As I have said in your thread on this

I have tried everything I can think of. It isn't like I couldn't post trash on Kerry 24/7. It isn't like I couldn't invade each and every pro Kerry thread and trash the man with repetitive posts of crapola from the Weekly Standard and God alone knows where else. Yet, what happens here I am called names like virtually every time I post anymore. I used to love DU but frankly now I am ready to bail.

[JohnKleeb]

42. It will be over soon enough I think

Maybe you could become a lounge lizard, one of my best friends here has a pact to stay out of GD lol. I understand.

[sandnsea]

29. Back at ya'

Why do you post crap like this? I know you Deanie's just can't seem to grasp that you've been total assholes for months, but you have. Dean's entire campaign has been beating up on the other candidates. He's still at it, calling Congress cockroaches yesterday. It seems to me Howard Dean will need the votes of the other 9 candidates' supporters a hell of alot more than any one of them will need his. Besides, Howard already said he can't tell these kids who to support, so nobody else knows if they're actually going to vote Democratic after Howard anyway. It's your pot.

[w4rma]

32. Wow, pot meet kettle.

Why was this thread posted? Partially because of your attitude and other Kerry hacks who share it. I'm serious.

dsc is trying to tone down the viciousness. You are trying to talk everyone into ratcheting it up, sandnsea.

[sandnsea]

51. Wow, get in the pot so you can see it

How do you tone down visciousness by starting a thread to all the "Kerry supporting Dean bashers"? What a load. It's Dean supporter's inability to see their own bullshit that gave me an attitude in the first place.

[dsc]

54. I have literally instructed you how to search

so you have no more excuses. Time to put up. I want citations of me doing what you have just accused me of. Again, you now have no excuses at all so time to face the music.

[sandnsea]

56. Are you toning down visciousness?

This very thread attacks people. A broad swiping smear. So I really don't need to go any further. Except I already mentioned you calling me liar liar liar and another Kerry smear I found in a post above.

[dsc]

58. this thread isn't a smear

If you really want citations of Dean bashing Kerry supporters I will give you them later today. It is late so I am going to bed. But if you really really really can't understand what I might be talking about then I will provide those citations.

On edit Here is the post which made me post this thread. It is the first reply in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=62161#62166

The original poster mentioned not one word about Kerry. Nothing. Nada. The info in the first reply has been posted at least a dozen times by this poster. It has been answered repeatly by Dean supporters. This was just plain mean spirited bashing and I absolutely guarentee you will find nothing even remotely like this from me (to the point that if you do I will send a check to your address made out to Kerry for $20). It should be pointed out this is from today and is easy to find. I could find literally a half dozen different posters who support Kerry who have done this very thing. So again, I don't think this thread qualifies as a smear and I stand behind it.

[sandnsea]

61. You can't see it

It IS a smear. I am feeling smeared. You do not have permission to tell me what I do or don't feel. I know it's really really really hard to look at your own behavior, but you might be better off spending the time doing that instead of posting another one-sided diatribe.

[dsc]

64. this from someone who cited two threads

no links of course so I have no clue as to context. One which I stand behind and the other which I may well have apologized for when it occured. Since you didn't provide a link I can't know.

[sandnsea]

66. THIS thread

The one you started at 7:47 PM. It's mean spirited and nasty. It chastises all Kerry supports as if we're the only ones who ever post a bashing thread. The reason you can't SEE the 'Dean supporting Kerry bashing threads' is because you AGREE with them.

And it doesn't matter whether you apologize or stand behind a thread. If they're nasty, they're nasty. I can accept your apology and you still can't say you've never posted a nasty thread. I posted a thread that said "I hate Howard Dean". I stand by my statement but I can also see it's mean. When I call him Howard the Coward, I believe it, but it's still bashing. You called Kerry a fool yet won't admit it was bashing. The context doesn't really matter, it's bashing.

[Andromeda]

108. But, but , but...

you ARE a Kerry supporting Dean basher, aren't you?

Dsc didn't post a nasty thread---it's you who are responding quite nastily if you don't mind me saying so.

I mean, you are really ratcheting up the vitriol, Mr. Sand.

[dsc]

109. Thank you

I greatly appreciate that.

[JohnKleeb]

33. It goes both ways I am afraid

Yes the cockroaches comment got me going :wtf:, I did indeed question it, and maybe I wasnt being talked to directly but I think I was told what I say above, "whining", I was far from whining. Ive seen good and bad in both sides as a netural observer honest. The "weepy and liberal" comment got me going what the fuck too. Still I plan to support him if he gets the nod but guys this really confuses me honest to god.

[indigo32]

94. I have been an Asshole to no one

and I know plenty of Dean people who haven't been either...
if you are upset with this post... maybe it's because you rightfully identify with those he is posting about. Look in the GD mirror before you start calling people Assholes.

[indigo32]

95. dupe

dupe

[indigo32]

96. dupe

dupe

[Octafish]

30. So you want to see four more years of Bush?

Dean's backers on DU have smeared Kerry for more than a year. Most Kerry backers have tried to remain above the fray and not respond in kind. After a while, many, like me, had to respond in kind. We weren't going to let the smears stand.

Why do I feel this way? The Kerry bashing Dean supporters have been running NAZI tactics on DU for a long time. These people shout down any dissent. They attack and smear Kerry and then act offended should someone dare return the favor to Dean — at every opportunity, in numbers and relentlessly. They also make it personal. How many times certain Dean supporters I can name have called me and other Kerry supporters naive, stupid, wrong and worse — things that would make you blush, dsc, because I believe you have a conscience and give a darn about other people's feelings. For the record: I've never hit the alert on them or put them on ignore.

You want to know something? I don't think all Dean supporters are mere uninformed maggots. They are misled, as so many American who supported Nixon and Reagan and Bush41 and Bush43 were, by a cult of personality. The guy sounds nice, but what has he said or done that makes people think he’ll make a good president, let alone can beat Bush43?

Even Dean's best line was stolen from another Democrat: “I’m from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party.” How many Dean supporters know who said that? Ask them. I have here in Detroit and most have no clue. Of, if you prefer, "I want my country back!" Well, isn't that the line Joe Trippi told Jerry Brown to say back in 1992?

You get the picture, I'm sure. Still, you always want links, dsc, so I'll see what I can find when I get to feel like it. Getting back to the point:

If you want to pretend that what I said isn't so. Great. The proof will come in November 2004 should Dean be our nominee. I'll hold my nose and vote for the guy*. He SAYS he's a Democrat. My contention is MOST other Americans won't see it that way. Then we can enjoy whatever Bushler, Sneer, Assklown, Rumfilled and the rest of the cabal have planned.

* How many Dean supporters would do the same for Kerry? Not as many as there should be, from what I've read on DU.

[dsc]

34. Please point out where I have smeared Kerry for months

and as a bonus question please site one current poster who smeared Kerry a month ago (note here I am asking for 1 month or more ago not within the last month).

[FubarFly]

43. dsc,I honestly don't know how you have the patience to deal with this crap

But as a fellow Dean supporter let me just say:

:yourock:


I don't often participate in the bashing threads mainly because with your stalwart presence there, I don't have to. Your honesty and integrity makes you an excellent ambassador for Dean. Good work.

:toast:

[dsc]

44. Thank you

I greatly appreciate that.

[Octafish]

46. Do you even read what I posted? NOWHERE did I write YOU or dsc!

My friend, read the post. In it I described the Dean supporters who bash Kerry. I also mentioned that what they say would make you blush, because you have a conscience!

As for the rest of the turds who blast Kerry? How can you call yourselves Democrats? Do you even know what the word means? I'll give you a hint: Democrats believe all people are created equal.

[dsc]

47. Sorry I misread one line of your post

that was my fault. But my second point still stands. I don't think there are any current posters here who have been trashing Kerry for months. Yes, there were a lot of anti Kerry posters in the beginning of the campaign but virtually all of those people are gone or have calmed down considerably. I will admit attacks on Kerry have stepped up in the last weeks but frankly I think that is the result of our being very tired of the behavior of Kerry supporters. It is one thing to post your own threads with links and honest questions or even not so honest ones. It is quite another to hijack each and every pro Dean thread created with repiticious, canned attacks. It used to be maybe one or two Kerry people doing this. Now it seems to be a half dozen. I don't remember the last time I read a positive thread about Dean or even a neutral thread which at all mentioned him without seeing canned attacks. I won't say there hasn't been one but I honestly can't remember any for months.

[Octafish]

59. No problem.

I'm just glad you like to read. That's how we learn about that which we can't directly experience.

Regarding the attacks on ex-Gov. Dean. DU Friend dsc, I can't remember even ONE pro-Kerry thread I've posted where he hasn't been trashed. Not ONE. And I go back a ways.

Salin, I believe, raised the point you made in your original post above. He indicated it would be very difficult for supporters of the candidates who are NOT the nominee to forget what was said and done to their horse in the primaries. I explained my reasoning and promised him then that I would remember the advice.

It's only when I see slanders on Sen. Kerry or personal attacks on his supporters do I respond in kind. All it would take is to go back a few pages in this forum for me to find plenty to list. Finally, if the supporters of Sen. Kerry didn't stand up when challenged, this great DU would be Dean Underground. But we don't. And it ain't.

[Lexingtonian]

65. Let me get this straight

Your candidate spends the summer and much of the fall as the frontrunner. He and a pile of grassroots activists who organize under his banner go on a power trip tear during which they harp on Bush (rightfully) and all kinds of Democrats (rightfully and wrongfully) for all kinds of real and alleged misdeeds using irrational issues, emotional appeals, and a kind of shared political hysteria. Then the anti-Bush well is kind of tapped out, so it's on to attacking other Democrats 24/7. At the same time the Dean campaign sucks as much money as possible out of their supporters early under a claim (maybe a pretext) that the earlier the better to wipe out the competition with sheer volume, but also to invest the Believers financially and emotionally to the point where they don't have much left to give other candidates and a desire that their capital investment pays dividends.

The other candidates don't take this kicking lying down, and they counterattack- that Dean himself is not much of a liberal, that the touted NRA rating isn't doing much for him, that his record and platform are feeble once the emotional element fades. Dean himself then sets to burning bridges with major Democrats in Congress and talks about purging the Party. And a good bit of his support wanders off to less of a firebrand, Clark. And suddenly Dean isn't talking about "a revolutionary kind of campaign" anymore.

So, after six months of nonstop triumphalism of the Dean supporters on DU, after months and months of demonizing the DLC (where did that go?) and calling the Party apparatus traitorous, your side is the one that is entitled to feel bitter and abused and treated with contempt?

[sandnsea]

69. Thanks so much

You said what was on my mind, but much more eloquently than I did. I'm sure your got the point across better too!

[LuminousX]

70. So you are saying you wish the rancor to continue

I don't give a flying fig 'who started it', what is being suggested and strongly promoted here and in a few other threads is we need to ratchet down the vitriol.

The difference I see is there is actual hatred against Dean posted here where I haven't seen any hatred of Kerry.

I have tried to even defend Kerry (see the 'Kerry connects with voter' thread as an example) and applaud Kerry (see the 'Kerry makes announcement' thread and the 'Gary Hart endorses Kerry' thread).

Now, we have a choice right here, right now. We can continue with the spite and hatred or choose a different path. The path I would like to see us take is the one of a more polite debate. Let our passions be seen in our support for a candidate not in our hatred for the opposition.

All it takes, though, is one or two disgustingly anti-candidate threads to pull us back into the pits of partisan despair.

[Lexingtonian]

107. not really

You see the issue as 'rancor'. There is also a matter of integrity and of putting scurrilous allegations to rest- better now than in February.

You're right- some Kerry supporters have been been intemperate, though I don't remember any overt hatred. It seemed to me more like anger at being wronged and treated with highhanded "well, you will be assimilated so why should we seriously consider anything you say" contempt of the Borg (which is to say, Stalinist) variety.

I think you believe that the Dean movement is somehow primarily based on being intellectually in the right and rational argument. That has not matched my observations.

Personally, I think the harbingers are all there that the Dean movement is in decline and with it its confrontationalism and the acrimony around here. I don't exactly see Kerry-Clark or Clark-Kucinich or Kerry-Kucinich duke-outs around here, but nasty Clark-Dean clashes are about, so I've come to associate this level of viciousness with the involvement of a subset of Dean partisans.

That is not to exonerate people like myself for pouring gasoline on the flames. But for this kind of 'debating' where each side is selective in the facts and attitudes it admits, the best means of resolution is IMHO to burn out the fuel- set backfires- as quickly as possible.

[curse10]

71. Yes, the poor, mistreated Dean supporters

Give me a break.

:eyes:

[Duder]

72. Thanks for kicking this...

I'm still hoping DrFunk will find the Kerry=Bush photo.

[LuminousX]

73. Your Signature Picture Tells Me All I Need To Know

eskimo

[Octafish]

74. Interesting you should say that.

Curse10 is one of the kindest posters on DU. Just because he or she doesn't think like the Deanie-weenie worshippers makes him or her a bad person. Doesn't it?

[curse10]

78. thanks Octafish

I just got tired of constantly being told how I should support Dean because he's the perfect candidate. I know that most of the Kerry supporters on this board are really frustrated with the board climate, but we stick around and put up with it because we support our candidate. And, sometimes, we have to fight back to the constant attacks.

And I know I have never started a thread bashing any candidate, let alone Dean. He's not even worth my time.

[JohnKleeb]

79. was gonna say the same Kirsten

but I couldnt quite put it in to words. I too have never seen you start a thread on it. I feel with you there as a Kucinich supporter and you know my second choice happens to be Kerry don't you.

[curse10]

82. thanks John

you're a great friend and great poster on this board. Although Kucinich is not my top choice your advocacy for him has made me respect the man more.

[JohnKleeb]

84. thanks

[indigo32]

80. I think we're all frustrated with the climate on this board

and yes I'll give you credit for not starting bashing threads...
but I'm confused are we constantly attacking your candidate or constantly trying to push our candidate...which is it ;)


I should add that I have never started a bashing thread either...

[curse10]

81. I don't think you have to separate the two

Some people attack other candidates, some people, mostly via pm (in my experiences) try to convince me that my choice in candidates is horribly wrong and that if I don't vote for their candidate them I'm stupid and retarded, etc...

Of course it's not all supporters of a certain candidate. Some dean supporters I consider my friends. Others? I wouldn't give the time of day. And it's sad, because many people I used to admire on this board have done and said certain things in the last few months that make me 1) never want to support Dean and 2) never respect their opinions ever again.

Although, if Dean wins the nomination there's a 99% chance I'll vote for him- but there's that 1% that will nag at me. How can I support a man who has followers that I can't stand? How can I stand behind a man that has supporters that call me retarded?

I've supported Kerry since 2001 and no one on this board is going to make me change my mind. People can shout "skulls and bones!" from the roof top but it doesn't make Dean a better person. I've weighed my decision very carefully- I've done my research and I'm very happy with my choice.

There's a huge division on this board, and, I honestly believe it's because of certain supporters of a certain candidate. It's not enough that they are ahead in the polls and ahead in fundraising-- they have to take down the other candidates-- all good men (even Joe :-) ). Right now, Dean is last on my list- and that's sayin' a lot because I really can't stand Joe Lieberman.

I guess, after this whole thing, I'd like to just be able to support my candidate in peace.

[dsc]

83. I will say this here and now

No one should be PMing anyone about candidates. If people are doing that turn them in they will be warned to stop in a heart beat. I only PM for two reasons, one to make sure a poster sees an apology I post to them and two to answer them on a thread which has been locked. If any Dean supporters are doing that I implore them to stop it this instant. Not only is it dumb but it is absolutely against the rules to do it. If a person says don't PM me anymore that means don't PM me anymore. This is the first I have heard of this and I absolutely can say I have never, ever done this. Not even one time.

[curse10]

87. I know you aren't doing this dsc

but some Dean supporters are. And it's not always through channels on this board- I do have my AIM handle and email address readily available for all to see.

[dsc]

91. You would have to ask a mod

but I strongly suspect they would also kick to the curb people who carried things here to AIM and email. I would foward the emails, with addys, to the administrators and let them take it from there. There is no exuse for that conduct.

[curse10]

93. as a former mod I'm pretty sure they would

but unfortunately email and aim allows for anonymity (I know that's not spelled right :-) ) I have my suspicions, but it's really not worth it.

[indigo32]

85. amazing

Let me start out by saying I think it's awful that people are PMing you about your choice of candidate. I haven't experienced that thankfully and I'd hope you'd let the moderator know about it.

and in the end let me say I would echo these thoughts....
You are not the only one who feels like this
"And it's sad, because many people I used to admire on this board have done and said certain things in the last few months that make me 1) never want to support 'Kerry', and 2) never respect their opinions ever again" But I'll stick with #2.... and
"I've done my research and I'm very happy with my choice"
"I guess, after this whole thing, I'd like to just be able to support my candidate in peace"

[indigo32]

75. My goodness

this thread is like a greatest hits album of all time worst songs or something. The rancor is appalling. He said, she said, he said. Can we please grow up. All Kerry supporters are not one way... all Dean supporters are not one way.... and both candidates are Politicians who've contradicted themselves... gone negative... wimped out... in other words THEY ARE POLITICIANS.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

76. Skinner weighs in

Skinner weighs in

[indigo32]

77. Not a surprise

it's been clear how he feels and thats fine.

[BushGone04]

86. OK

First, I don't think I've been a Dean-basher. I have pointed out disagreements I have with his policies and tactics, but I don't recall ever attacking him personally, and on a few occasions I've even defended him. While I can't say for sure, I haven't seen you bashing Kerry a lot either. Good for you. But don't even try to say all the bashing has come from one side; it's come from both, and, at the risk of sounding like a 4th-grader in a playground argument, Dean and his supporters started it.

Kerry, a man who has fought literally all of his adult life for progressive causes, has been called "beyond slime," "pond scum," and all manner of other things on this allegedly progressive forum. So, although I'm not accusing you personally of Kerry-bashing, for you to post and act like Dean is some innocent victim of bashing by Kerry supporters is a joke and you know it.

[dsc]

89. I will ask you the same thing that I have asked everyone else who has

brought this up. Name someone who started it who is still here now. I keep asking for this and keep getting stiffed. Even one of the premier anti Dean posters admitted that most of our bad apples did get thrown out (though admittedly she suppects they have snuck back on). I keep hearing about these mean Dean supporters who drove these people to this behavior but I have yet to see any evidence that they haven't been taken care of quite some time ago.

[curse10]

92. dsc

you know we aren't allowed to call people out on the board. And I am not going to call out Dean supporting Kerry bashers-- I'm not going to stoop that low. I have the threads bookmarked and I know who's saying what about my candidate.

I don't need to prove to you, or to any other Dean supporter about what's going on on this board.

[dsc]

99. I will grant

that in the last few weeks Dean supporters have gradually come off the hook. But there were a solid two to three months, between the time the original ones were kicked off, and the remaining ones started to lose control that there were very few, if any, instances of Dean supporters interupting positive threads or posting bizarre tales on Kerry. My point is that contrary to the narrative that people like to weave on the issue of Dean supporters and their conduct the bad apples got tossed, and not without Dean supporters help it should be said. We did police our own within the ability any of us have. Then we watched as Dean bashers just ran wild. We alerted, we tried to refute things, we asked for standards to be set, we tried to ignore, and nothing worked. It got worse and worse. So now our supporters are off the hook and frankly it doesn't surprise me.

[curse10]

100. Look at these two threads

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=61896

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=433455

The first thread? A Kerry support poll- disrupted by Dean supporters.

The second thread? A Dean support poll- NOT ONE KERRY SUPPORTING DISRUPTOR.

There have been a series of threads similar to these- unfortunately I have not bookmarked them all.

[dsc]

101. I looked at your example

The poster who did by far the most disrupting (the only one with multiple posts) is on record as having switched allegence from Dean to Kucinich. If you don't believe him I can understand that but he did post exactly that and gave a reason for his switch. There were two others. One was harmless (the windsurfing pic) and the other shouldn't have done it but did only one post. I really don't think that is all that bad. I didn't see it due to honoring the author's request.

[LuminousX]

102. Interesting to Note

that a Dean supporter even popped into the first thread to give good words about Kerry.

[LuminousX]

103. Another interesting thing

is that the Dean supporter in the first thread isn't in the second. One would then suspect that he is more 'anti' than 'pro'. So all Dean supporters suffer at his hand?

[dsc]

105. He isn't one anymore

He announced he supported Kucinich (if I recall correctly it was over Dean not coming out in favor of immediate removal of troops).

[killbotfactory]

88. How can you stay mad at this face?

[indigo32]

90. Sigh

can't we just try and keep from getting personal?

[killbotfactory]

97. What was personal?

It was just a joke.

[indigo32]

98. I know

but tensions are pretty high in this thread.

[DrFunkenstein]

110. How Can You Stay Mad At This Face?

<>

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[Pavlovs DiOgie]

112. More!

[blm]

113. You expected a love in after Dean labeled GOOD Democrats "Bushlite"

but, forget it...he was WRONG to distort their records the way he did to glorify and enrich himself.

He pretends to be a populist when his record is a centrist one. That's not bashing, that's a fact that he has even admitted to when he thought it suited the audience.

Dennis DESERVES the support of the populists who have been suckered in by Dean's election year conversion.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

114. What choice do we have?

Whoever gets the nomination will inherit most of the supporters from other campaigns...that is just the way it goes. I try not to hate the Kerry operatives too much because I know I may be volunteering for Kerry someday, because he and Dean are from the same wing of the same party, and if Dean drops out during the primaries my support will go to Kerry. I expect that we will inherit a lot of Kerry's supporters if he drops out. It kind of sucks that the Dean people and the Kerry people necessarily are the biggest rivals, since the two candidates are probably the most similar ideologically.

Mousepads, Shoe Leather, and Hope

[whirlygigspin]

115. Dean, Dean, Dean , Dean.

:donut: