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Dean is the next Horace Greeley! No wait, William Jennings Bryan!

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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:05 PM
Original message
Dean is the next Horace Greeley! No wait, William Jennings Bryan!
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 12:13 PM by ProfessorPlum
How long must we suffer this constant barrage of "Your candidate's so fat, he sits AROUND the house!" posts?

In the end, is there nothing interesting left to discuss about this group of fine people who have offered themselves to our service? Is it really all just about the horse race now?

These candidates are all great, and they will beat the pants off of Chimpy.

Let me save all the Dean-bashers the suspense of figuring out which one of them is going to rush into this thread first and lay down their "damning" evidence against Dean. I'll do it first. Here it is: There are things about Dean which can be criticized(!)

He administrated a state for 11 years. The real life art of governing is a messy thing. You have to compromise, you have to cut deals, you have to make unpopular choices. The real test is did that state come out better or worse for it? From the testimony of Vermonters, Dean did a great job at the actual day to day job of governance.

I'll even lay it out further: He once advocated trying to fix a major problem in one way, and now advocates fixing it in another way. When a journalist tried to catch him in a gotcha, he initially denied his first fix.

Gee, how about that. We could never elect someone like that! </sarcasm>

At least Dean is thinking about ways to fix problems, unlike certain unelected man-monkeys I know.

Or how about Kerry? What about his IWR vote? Let me save the Kerry-bashers a lot of time here and point out that while his vote is a symbolic problem, his vote in either direction would not have changed anything. He could have said he was voting "Yea" because he hadn't had his cup of coffee yet that day, or said he was voting "Nay" because he'd already seen Bush in a flight suit - it wouldn't have mattered. IWR would have passed anyway.

What does matter more are Kerry's actions before the vote (fashioning the IWR as best he could) and after the vote (denouncing Bush's bungling). Both of those issues speak to Kerry's potential greatness as a candidate and leader, not to mention his distinguished record.

Face it, both groups - neither of you have a magic bullet which will destroy either candidate. No link from the Rutland Herald or the Boston Globe is going to destroy them as candidates - they are both electable and will continue their campaigns into the primaries and at the end of the day someone will have more delegates. That doesn't take away from either of them.

It must gall some people to have others disagree with them. They must wake up every day and think, for example, "Someone out there still thinks Dean would be a good candidate. Oooooh that burns me up. I think I'll post my same old links to stale old editorials about Dean for the 4 millionth time. That should piss them off real good."

Dudes (and dudettes), what is the point? You don't have the silver bullet. You don't. Stop it already.

This board, once a much better source of information, is starting to bore the crap out of me. I realize that is my problem, but if each of you make it your problem too, we might have a more entertaining and informative board.

(Clap clap) Entertain me! Being boring is the worst sin of all.

Edit for stupidity
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Whos William Jennings Bryant
Its Bryan. I get what you are saying but it goes all ways.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. shit. At least I spelled Greeley right. Right?
Yeah, it goes all ways. That's the whole point.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. heh its ok
Ok just know that, I dont like one side being completely guilty and the other devoid of guilt.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. sorry, did I imply that one side is complete guilty?
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 12:17 PM by ProfessorPlum
Maybe I'm not very clear in my writing.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. you may have, I am sorry if I sounded offended I am not
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 12:16 PM by JohnKleeb
You did it better than I did, I had to curse at everyone but yeah it seemed like it to me, but my intepretion sucks ass so I misread you chances are, but as I say and I say this for religion as well good and bad in all. Great idea though we need to stop this damned fighting.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. I think you were pretty clear
that at the very least both Kerry and Dean camps are at fault and I at least inferred that this applied to all who felt that one of the opposition could be taken out like a boxer with a glass jaw.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I know ,my intepretion sucks
Sorry PP
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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. Too much Kobe Bryant coverage on TV!
Stop watching CNN! (Just wait til the trial starts -- our Dems won't be able to get coverage even if they jump up and down and threaten to kill Karl Rove.)
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. eeek!
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Ha ha
Jesus, I hope that's not it. They're in my brain!
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. This just in Clinton's Penis cause of 9/11
and Tucker Carlson has a new bow tie ;).
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well said
.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. LuminousX can you at least give Dean a ?
;) C'mon. Or how bout a 'target'? That would be appropriate right?:crazy:
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. LOL
A target... that would be funny.

Dean, for the next few months, doesn't exist to me. I will defend him against egregiously pointless attacks in the same way I defended Kerry, Kucinich, Edwards, and the others but other than that I am going to pay more attention to the negativity coming from his campaign to see if it really is as bad as a handful here claim. Meanwhile, I am going to really look at the different policies of the few that are under consideration and see how their campaigns push these policies and see how much negativity comes from those campaigns.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. Oh but I thought
he was the next Al Smith!

Nice to see you're back Prof. :hi:
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. If that were the case
He would be a Catholic, trying to repeal prohibition, and Irish American. Al Smith now theres an interesting figure, "the happy warrior", once a progressive and friend of FDR he became right wing and joined the anti New Deal Liberty League. Even the South voted majority Hoover that year? you know why? because Al was Catholic, silly I know, and even sillier is that there has only been one non protestant president.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. thanks LLIT
good to see you too.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Good post
But Left Coast is correct- you're making too much sense. Heaven forbid that we admit all 9 have their strengths and weaknesses but are darn fine candidates! Thanks for the try though.
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
8. Stop! You're making too much sense!
Great post! Hope it makes a difference here on DU. I'm sure KR would like nothing better than to have DU dissolve into inter-partisan bickering.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. that's an awesome picture
.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
12. Thank you!
:yourock:
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
14. hear, hear!
We can probably keep with the Bryan riff and talk about the Dems' proclivity to "inherit the wind" by not seeing the bigger goal...
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
20. Dean is a passionate centrist in the mold of President Truman.
Give 'em hell, Howard! :evilgrin:

The passionate centrist

NEW YORK -

At the end of summer and onset of fall, pundits are gearing up for the Democratic presidential primaries. Recently, columnists have churned out a slew of articles profiling, criticizing and praising the candidates. Rating the candidates, writers have given the health insurance gold medal to Kerry, the centrist medal to Lieberman and the leftist medal to Dean.

Absent from all this politicking, however, is discussion on the Democratic strategy. Aside from TIME magazine's "How to Build a Better Democrat," no columnist has provided a comprehensive or innovative view of the identity Democrats need to assume in the coming election.

It seems each party is having an identity crisis. George Will, the conservative columnist for the Washington Post, stated, "Foreign and domestic developments constitute an identity crisis of conservatism, which is being recast - and perhaps rendered incoherent." In an effort to broaden their image, Republicans created an unassailable facade of "compassion," claiming to be "for" all those typically overlooked by the system: the elderly, minorities, the poor.

A cue for Democrats: To broaden your image, embrace the idea of passionate centrism. A 1997 USA Today story quoted then Governor of Vermont Howard Dean as calling himself a "passionate centrist." A cursory look at his governorship proves this to be true. And so, Dean's success, both as a governor (he's won five consecutive elections) and a presidential candidate, is based on impassioned moderation.

http://www.michigandaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/08/04/3f2de34c3b301
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=41955


Of course last week's Dean hype managed to do both at once. It knocked him down by setting him up, in a way. No longer was the question “Is he too liberal to be electable?” Reporters belatedly scoured his record and discovered a fiscal conservative who put balanced budgets before social spending in Vermont, who opposes federal gun control legislation and backs the death penalty for certain crimes. Now the make-or-break question about Dean became: “Will liberals desert him when they figure out that he's actually a moderate?” Then came other pre-fab worries about the problems of sudden success: Had Dean peaked too soon? Could his fledgling campaign handle the attention? And OK, maybe he was moderate enough to be electable, but was he likable enough? Was his reputation for “straight talk” just a euphemism for brusque and arrogant?

Hanging out with the local Dean folks was my way of getting out of what his campaign dismisses as “the media echo chamber,” and trying to figure out what's really going on. I've lived here almost 20 years. I know the San Francisco Dean phenomenon is not a microcosm of what it will take to get him elected; I saw the way the GOP smeared House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi -- and pushed her to the center some -- by calling her a “San Francisco Democrat” before she even took over the leadership post. I know we're DLC founder Al From's worst nightmare. But I also saw some intriguing things following Dean around San Francisco at the end of July, and talking to his supporters the week after he'd gone. The Bay Area Dean machine is attracting more than the usual suspects: It's neither the Greens nor the City Hall regulars; it's neither the moneyed elite nor the rabble; it's not just the young and the hip; it's not ponytailed '60s holdovers -- it's all of them, and then some. I met Republicans and Ross Perot voters who were supporting the antiwar candidate who promises to repeal Bush's tax cuts. And I met Dean himself, and watched two speeches. You can't get his charisma without seeing him in person.

The UFCW crowd seemed a lot like Donna Brazile: They were ready to love everybody. Only the leftier candidates -- Kucinich, Carol Moseley Braun, Gephardt and Dean -- showed up; Sharpton couldn't make it, but Kerry appeared by satellite, as befits his attempt to be a more centrist liberal. All of them got big cheers. These were the folks Al From tried to warn us about. But if Dean hadn't been red-baited by the DLC, you might well hear him as the moderate in the race. He criticized Kucinich and Moseley Braun's call for single-payer universal healthcare, the left's politically impossible dream, as well as Gephardt's expensive public-private hybrid. Kerry vied with Dean for the moderate mantle with his relatively modest healthcare plan, but overall Dean came off as the fiscal conservative in the bunch. Amazingly, he got the biggest hand from this union audience when he called George Bush a “borrow and spend, credit-card Republican” and promised to erase the deficit if he's elected.

One thing I don't worry about is that his lefty base doesn't know what he stands for, and will bolt when they realize he's a moderate. His base knows exactly how moderate he is. I interviewed dozens of his liberal devotees, and they all know the not-so-liberal aspects of his record. Someone at the Meetup lamented his staunch pro-Israel stance; several people I met said they differed with him on the death penalty. Brilliant says he has issues with Dean on all of his more conservative stands. “But he's not afraid to say what he thinks. Dean asks the fundamentally sound questions and does not have an ideological answer that trumps reason, as Bush does.”

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/08/11/dean/
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
22. Great post
You said it much better than I did. Thanks.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
24. Yup!
Thanks!
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
25. I prefer to think of Dean as the next...
President of the United States.

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Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
26. This place definitely has become incredibly boring.
:boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring:

You hit the nail right on the head Professor. But you know what? It won't faze the argu-bots in the least. They will continue on their hateful way posting, reposting and re-reposting drivel up until the nomination is in. Why? Because they are a) psychotic employees of one of the candidates or b) GOP/Freep disruptors or c) emotionally needy sociopaths who don't have anything else to do in real life. Just a guess.

I'll be in the conservatory...heard there was a party!



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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Argu-bots
that term hits the nail squarely on the head.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. I'll take "C" for 1,000, Alex.
Perhaps they were abused children. ;-)

Great post, btw. :hi:
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Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Abused, smamused.
These types are probably the ones with the silver spoon stuck in their mouths. They get joy out of lying, twisting the truth and in general just being assholes here because it makes them feel superior.

I think there's a good chance a, b and c are the correct answer. They are all :freak: and as the good Professor says "boring" to boot.





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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
27. I Try To Distinguish Between Legitimate Gripes And Shady Swipes
Although sometimes I'll respond to some choice Dean supporters with a little more vitriol than others.

It's funny, because I just posted how silly it was to make comparisons between a candidate and figure X. Although, candidates often do it to themselves. Dean got off the ground by comparing himself to Wellstone, while Kerry often seems to go for JFK2.

There are legitimate issues that need to be brought up. For instance, Dean's Mideast stance seems disingenuous and Kerry lied about his asthma condition. These are real issues that affect how they will run their Presidency. Can we really trust someone less than forthright about their asthma?

<>

Kerry Implied He Started Using Inhaler As Result Of Asthma. “Many of the parents and some of the children in the group at the roundtable discussion complained of asthma. ‘Until I went to Washington, I had never had asthma in my life,’ Kerry said in response. He said pollution in the city has prompted him to use an inhaler like those used by some of Roxbury residents.”

Well, Not Exactly . . . “In an interview afterward, Kerry clarified his remark by explaining that he used an Albuterol inhaler for common springtime allergies, but his condition is not serious enough to limit his physical activity. ‘I rarely use it; I haven’t used it in months,’ he said.”

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research061203.htm

Yes, a Dean supporter brought this up as an attack.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Jesus, people are assh*les
Maybe the Democrats really are going to screw themselves over again.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
31. What I find absolutely *mindless*
Edited on Wed Oct-22-03 09:30 AM by Padraig18
This whole "My candidate is MORE of a Democrat than yours is" debate. Guess what, people? We don't have a secret handshake or an initiation ceremony, nor do you have to have a lifelong Democrat sponsor you to be considered a "Democrat". We are a 'mutt' party, and we always have been! The whole anally-retentive 'purity clique' are beginning to annoy the crap out of me with their vaguely-concealed condescension.
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