Highly Decorated Sir Wesley Clark

[drfemoe]

I'm wondering how DUers feel about Clark's Knighthood status?

Other men who have been knighted (supposedly for their services to the British Crown) ..

Alan Greenspan
Ex-President George Bush (senior)
Colin Powell
Norman Schwarzkopf
Ex-President Ronald Reagan
James Wolfensohn, president of the World Bank

http://www.veteransforclark2004.us/page2.html
"General Clark is a recipient of numerous U.S. and foreign military awards, including the Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart. He has received honorary Knighthoods from the British and Dutch governments and was made a commander of the French Legion of Honor. In August 2000, General Clark was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the nation's highest civilian honor."

[GainesT1958]

1. More people need to know this....

As none of the awards and titles he received are given lightly.

B-)

[Mairead]

2. A knighthood is a political reward given to those who reach

certain positions with their noses still clean enough. One need not keep a vigil over one's arms and armour in a church overnight or anything else. Merely be a careerist who keeps out of political trouble.

[AP]

18. Crusty the Clown was "knighted" too

Although it's not a knighting -- you have to be a British subject. I forget the official titled, but it's something like "Friend of the British Empire".

[PROGRESSIVE1]

3. I don't care for the Royals but.....

I don't hold it against him!

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boxster]

5. Wow, are we missing something?

Not sure what brought that on.

You appear to be reading between lines I'm not seeing. It doesn't appear that drfemoe was trying to bash Clark, unless you are just assuming that he/she was equating Clark to the other people listed based solely on the fact that they all were knighted.

Comparing them based on some honorary title would be a little silly. Or, is that the point you're trying to make?

[wyldwolf]

7. drfemoe is trying to draw parallels between Clark and those listed...

..like Reagan...

Another "guilt by association" tactic.

Clark must be like those if he was knighted, huh?

[boxster]

8. That's what I assumed coralrf was insinuating, but the listing of Clark's

other honors didn't seem to fit the "flamebait" type of post. I could, of course, be wrong.

If flaming was the intention, it's nice to see posters getting much more subtle at it! }(

[drfemoe]

10. I don't know ...

... is that what it means?

That's what I'm asking .. for opinions.

I don't care if he's annoited pope, I won't vote for him.

Thanks to all who are voicing their honest opinions.
It is not my intention to attack you no matter what they are.

(edit clarity)

[boxster]

13. I guess I don't understand why you bothered posting it then.

Tons of people have honorary knighthoods, so what exactly are you trying to accomplish here?

If you were hoping people would make a big deal out of it, I doubt that will happen as most people realize that a knighthood isn't unique. If you were trying to compare Clark to a bunch of Republicans by listing only a few of the countless number of Americans with honorary knighthoods, I don't think you're likely going to get any bites.

[KittyWampus]

15. Ever Hear Of "Guilt By Association"

As the original poster lists neocons who've been knighted... and neglects to mention upstanding individuals who've recieved the honor.

[AP]

34. BTW, this is like saying Ruth Bader Ginsburg is a fascist like Scalia.

Scalia - appointed by right winger. Ginsburg - appointed by Democrat.

Clark - probably honored by Labour. PNACers - honored by Tories.

[LuminousX]

6. I always felt Americans should reject Knighthood

But that is my opinion regarding fealty and other outdated modes of concepts that I am sure no American even cares about in the first place.

Otherwise, it has no effect on the election.

[union_maid]

9. Don't forget Sir Paul

Paul McCartney has a knighthood, too. Maybe they could, you know..joust or something.

[RandomUser]

14. Arthur C. Clarke, Elton John, Stephen Hawking and more were all Knighted

Looks like Clark's in good company. The fact that the original poster chose to be very selective of who to list as having been knighted seems to be a subtle bias intended to influence opinion.

I don't like guilt by association smears, whether subtle or not. I would be interested in why the original poster chose to be so selective. I like Arthur C. Clark, Elton John, and Stephen Hawking.

[stickdog]

16. Which POLITICAL role models have been knighted? (NT)

[RandomUser]

20. So being Knighted by the Queen of England is a bad thing? (n/t)

[stickdog]

21. It looks like it, unless you can name a few decent US political figures

who have been knighted.

[RandomUser]

23. The Queen of England is evil? But only if you happen to be a politician?

Sounds like guilt by association. And guilt by selective association too.

[AP]

27. Since New Years 1998, Tony Blair's office has picked these people. Before

...that, a Tory government picked the honorees.

It is intellectual dishonest to lump Labour honorees with Tory honorees.

It's like saying Thurgood Marshall is a right winger because he served on a court with Rehnquist and Scalian.

[stickdog]

30. When was Clark knighted?

And what other decent US political figures have been recently knighted?

[AP]

33. He was serving up to 1999, right? Probably Jan 2000, 2001 or 2002

read my post below.

I think Holbrooke might have been. And it' isn't a "knighting". Only British citizens can get knighted.

It's a honor, and I don't know which one it is. I don't think it's the MBE either.

[stickdog]

40. Anybody can guess. I'm looking for real answers. (NT)

[AP]

43. But you're not willing to do a simple google search, which would be faster

than writing out the quesiton.

[drfemoe]

45. Found This ..

..."Recent American recipients of honours include New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani and film director Steven Spielberg (Knights Commanders of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire), former Presidents George Bush and Ronald Reagan (Knights Grand Cross of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath), Generals Norman Schwarzkopf and Colin Powell (Knights Commanders of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath), Caspar Weinberger (Knight Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire), and New York Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik and New York Fire Department Commissioner Thomas Von Essen (Commanders of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire). " ...

http://www.britainusa.com/faq/xq/asp/SID.333/qx/showfaq.htm

[AP]

35. UK honors those who've helped Britian, so Richard Holbrooke, Clark and WJC

qualify, and not many others. Maybe Albright. Close call there, I think.

Holbrooke might have been honored. Not sure.

Notice that the Tories used to have a much looser interpretation of the qualifications. Helping britian used to mean, helping engage in spread of fascism.

[whirlygigspin]

55. Ask Conrad Black

He had to renounce his Canadian citizenship in order to accept
a title from the Queen.

Titles are a BIG no no, north of the border.

"Away with honors, knighthoods, swords,
in search of higher indeavor,
we'll wear where Adam wore the fig,
the Maple leaf, forever."

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Nickle-Resolution

[Kool Kitty]

19. And Anthony Hopkins.

Sounds like good company to me.

[ScreamingMeemie]

11. It will probably entice some, but it should come down to the best

man for the job. I, personally, am not amazed by medals and awards. They are handed out willy nilly to rock stars et al. Let it be on issue stances.

[Northwind]

12. I have special desire

To elect a christmas tree to the highest office in the nation.

I do not care one way or the other about Clark's decorations, they are irrelevant.

[FrenchieCat]

36. Medals are usually not impressive to those who have none

Luckily, I won 1 for swimming in the eight grade

LIST OF Clark's Medals & Honors
---------------------------
Army Commendation Medal (two awards)
Commander of the Legion of Honor (France)
Commander's Cross, The Silver Order of Freedom of the Republic of Slovenia
Commemorative Medal of the Minister of Defence of the Slovak Republic First Class (Slovakia)
Cross of Merit of the Minister of Defense First Class (Czech Republic)
Defense Distinguished Service Medal (5 awards)
First Class Order of Lithuanian Grand Duke Gediminas (Lithuania)
Grand Cross of the Medal of Military Merit (Portugal)
Grand Cross of the Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany
Grand Medal of Military Merit (White Band) (Spain)
Grand Officer of the Order of Merit of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg Grand Officer of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Italy Honorary Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (United Kingdom)
Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Orange-Nassau, with Swords (Netherlands)
Legion of Merit (four awards)
Madarski Konnik Medal (Bulgaria)
Meritorious Service Medal (two awards)
Military Service Cross of Canada
NATO Medal for Service (2 awards)
Order of Merit of Argentina
Order of Merit of Morocco
Order of Merit of the Hungarian Republic
Order of the Cross of the Eagle (Estonia)
Presidential Medal of Freedom
Purple Heart
Silver Star
The Commander's Cross with Star of the Order of Merit of Republic of Poland
The Grade of Prince Butmir w/Ribbon and Star (Croatia)
The Grand Cordon of the Order of Leopold (Belgium)
The Skandeberg Medal (Albania)
White House Fellowship

[ScreamingMeemie]

38. They don't impress me, who lettered in cross country and also

received many academic merit awards. It should be based on stances on issues, not how pretty one looks in their vest IMHO.

[AP]

17. Doesn't the British gov't chose these people? The RW'ers were Tory select-

ions, and Clark was a Labour selection.

[stickdog]

22. What other decent political figures have been recently selected then? (NT)

[AP]

24. Here. We can read through this together.

http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/page1361.asp

I encourage you to post with any you find compelling.

I could get burned here, since I'm not reading this before I post. But I'm confidnet Tony Blair will pull through for me.

[AP]

25. Clark is in the company of Brenda Blethyn.

See, when Labour controls government, you don't get a bunch of PNAC'ers and RW'ers and fascits getting honors. Since Clark almost certainly got his after May '97, I think it's safe to assume that this is cool, and whomever tried to spin this should be ashamed.

This is crown copyright, so it's essentially public domain (it's a press release from the Prime Minister's offcie.

The Prime Minister's Official Spokesman (PMOS) said that the 2003 Honours List, as always, reflected and paid tribute to outstanding achievements and service right across the community and the nation as a whole.  It might not be the 'glitziest' List we had had in recent years, but it was about rewarding those who worked and served at the sharp end - people who had really changed things, or who had given outstanding service to others in difficult situations.  Not only were there a large number of people from the education profession, from the health service, criminal justice system, business and the arts, but there were also awards for school cleaners, a dinner lady, a milkman, a lock-keeper, a bus driver, a school-crossing warden and a wealth of other people who had all done very fine work at a local level. 

There were 424 people in the List (42%) who had been nominated or supported by members of the public. This reflected the continuing value that the public placed on the honours system. And the list also reflects the government's commitment to honouring those in its key priority areas: education, health, law and order.

...There was a DBE for Rita Weller, Headteacher of Avonmore Primary School, Hammersmith and Fulham, who had promoted high standards and helped her pupils to raise their achievements despite the difficulties of being an inner city school in an area with high levels of deprivation. There were Knighthoods for John Jones, Head Teacher of Maghall High School in Sefton, Liverpool; Clive Booth, the Chairman of the Teacher Training Agency; and John Ward, Chairman of the Scottish Qualifications Agency...There were Knighthoods for ... Bill Connor, General Secretary of the Union of Shop Distributive and Allied Workers...There were CBEs for Peter Ackroyd; Jonathan Cope, principal dancer at the Royal Ballet; ...Jane Glover, Britain's leading woman conductor...Those awarded OBEs included Brenda Blethyn...Among the MBEs were George Duffield, the oldest jockey still riding in flat racing...MBEs had also been awarded to Arthur Edwards, the press photographer, and the Rev, Tim Alban Jones, the Vicar of Soham who had done a huge amount following the appalling deaths of two little girls in the summer.

Asked to elaborate further on his comment that the 2003 Honours List was not the 'glitziest' and whether it was an admission that previous Lists had been too 'glitzy', the PMOS said that he was simply making an observation that most of those people on the List were those who worked at the sharp end.  He was not saying that in the future there wouldn't be recipients who were perhaps better known.  He told journalists not to get too carried away by over-interpretation.

[stickdog]

28. Still haven't seen any decent knighted US political figures.

Am I missing something?

[AP]

32. Why don't you look up the list for 1998 to 2002. If you read this one

you'll see that Blair doesn't use them for glitziness or to reward PNAC'ers. The Tories used them as props to their little fascist cabal.

Blair uses them for people who make a difference to British society. Clark did his good work in Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if Clinton gets one in Jan 2005 for his work in NI. Perhaps Holbrooke already has one. I don't know. Rings a bell.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[AP]

26. stickdog, the courtesy of a repply is requested. See any indecent...

...political figures on this list?

You owe the dear readers of DU an apology for willfully misleading them, perhaps?

[stickdog]

29. Misleading them? By asking questions?

Surely you jest.

[AP]

31. It took me two seconds to get the answers to these questions. It took you

longer to type the quesiton that it would have taken you to do a google search.

You demean both me and you when you say that you were only interested in getting answers.

You were interested in propping up your candidate by tearing down Clark with misleading rhetorical questions.

[stickdog]

39. Because you haven't answered a single question.

When was Clark knighted (or whatever the award was)?

What other decent US political figures has received this same reward?

[eileen_d]

37. Well, this brings up a related question for me

Am I supposed to give a shit that Dean is an M.D.?

Dean's a swell candidate and all, but references to him as "the good doctor" make me want to blow some very non-medical chunks...

[Padraig18]

42. LOL!

I think everyone tends to 'puff' their candidates, but I agree with you generally. On the rare occasions I refer to HD as 'Doctor Dean' instead of 'Governor Dean', it's basically a brain fart on my part. :hi:

[javadu]

46. Yeah!!!

Bill Frist is a doctor too!!!! So --- that means Dean is a republican in democratic clothing!!!!

hhhhmmmmm!!!!!


All I see on DU is bunch of people who are very afraid Clark is going to do well and they are doing everything they can think of to smear him. It's the internet message board form of push polling.

[drfemoe]

47. Smear?

He scares the bejeezus outta me.

It's not like we haven't already seen what happens when someone with ties to special interests and no real interest in the American People takes over the white house..

No, I don't want to see that happen again.

[Kool Kitty]

48. Then don't vote for him.

[RandomUser]

49. You don't consider "guilt by association" a smear?

I do. :eyes:

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wyldwolf]

52. .

[eileen_d]

53. DAMN - and I was just about to go to bed

I don't think that's funny for many reasons, but the main one is that as a person receiving treatment for a mental illness, I am sick and tired of joke references to psychiatric drugs: Thorazine, Prozac, "Did you miss your meds," etc. Frankly I've missed my meds a few times and while I didn't go out and commit a violent crime (or vote Republican), it was no picnic.

Stigma attached to psychiatric drugs can actually discourage people who need treatment from seeking it. And that's a Bad Thing.

OK, lecture over. I hope you can understand that this is not about political correctness; it's about understanding the reality of mental illness and respecting other people.

[Bread and Circus]

54. The original post is a push poll question...

If you really think about it.

Only including "bad" associations but
leaving out "good" associations to influence
opinion seems like push polling. Isn't that something
we abhor?