The Army of Dean

[ProfessorPlum]

Gee, that's kind of a scary title, don't you think?

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0343/fahim.php

<snip>
Rebecca Schoon thinks she knows the mind of Howard Dean. And she likes it. So much, in fact, that she gave her share of the Bush tax cut to the Dean campaign. She shows all the signs of addiction, including an affinity for buzzwords like community.

If Schoon is addicted, she's certainly not powerless. "I find Dean comprehensive without being reductive," she said, after a day spent preaching to hipsters in DUMBO. She is now an active volunteer for Dean in New York and a pretty effective booster, too: "His thought process is logical. I understand the causal links and the nuance." And she likes that her opinions won't change his positions—even the ones she doesn't agree with. "He won't even pander to me," she said.

And while Schoon feels strongly about "effecting change," she too is a pragmatist: Bush is the target. Welcome to the Dean Army.

</snip>

I eschew the cult-like tone in the way Dean's followers are described, and I especially object to this sentence: "To his army, Governor Dean can do no wrong." Most of the Dean supporters I have met have their feet firmly planted on the ground and can accept his weaknesses and faults with open eyes.

But I do like the description of groups of people doing the right things without a lot of centralized control. A pretty cool development out of this campaign, anyway. Maybe it's a response to the greed-driven philosophy of our current rulers.

[pruner]

1. for those that don't know…

DUMBO=Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass

it's a neighborhood in Brooklyn, NY.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

2. Just a word to the wise

and a note of caution. "Cult" is a word frequently associated with Dean's um..... following.

[LuminousX]

4. Uncalled for flame bait

Nice way to elevate the discussion.

[MercutioATC]

5. True! I sacrificed a goat to him just last night!

www.trolls4dean.com

[Cha]

10. That's not very "wise" ...what you wrote.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

22. By whom?

:tinfoilhat: Kerry:tinfoilhat: supporters?:tinfoilhat: Please!:tinfoilhat:

[Cha]

3. I know Dean makes mistakes...I think of Dean as

human that's why it doesn't bother me! I also feel that he's a Real Person and I like his style!

[killbotfactory]

6. I find the dismissal of Dean's supporters as a cult insulting.

As if mobilizing half a million people to get involved in politics, give them a message of hope and empowerment, all while changing the way campaigns will be built in the future is a bad thing.

[Cha]

8. They're just jealous so they have to

use a word like "cult" instead of "a phenomenal happening!" :7

[killbotfactory]

11. Haha!

It's so true!

[gully]

7. Love this quote...

"I find Dean comprehensive without being reductive"

So true, sums it up for me.

Also you are spot on here:

"Most of the Dean supporters I have met have their feet firmly planted on the ground and can accept his weaknesses and faults with open eyes."

:thumbsup:

[Cha]

9. That's a Great quote from Granny D!

I can accept Dean's way of looking at life much more than I can take any of the other candidates. I like Kucinich but I already was a Dean Supporter when Dennis said he was going to run and I saw no reason to jump our Ship! :kick:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. While it might be tempting

to comment on the mutual-admiration society aspects of the Dean campaign, I'm more interested in whether Dean would be the best man to be President. And the 'Army of Dean' makes me think of the NATO force Dean calls for in his Iraq plan. It just seems unrealistic, more difficult to pass (and do we want NATO to tread on the same slippery slope it did in Kosovo?), and likely to be seen by the Iraqis as just another set of occupiers. European Crusaders even. A multinational force sanctioned by the UN, with a speedy transfer of control to the Iraqis makes a lot more sense.

[dsc]

13. What if the UN says no?

Frankly, there is no way I would be stepping up to help the US at this point is I were them. What do we do then? It should be noted that NATO isn't the only people with a role in his plan. The UN is to run the civilian affairs of Iraq. NATO is to supply troops.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

19. Well we need a leader who can rebuild our standing in the UN.

And, actually you seem to be a little misinformed abou Dean's Iraq Plan:

*A NATO-led coalition should maintain order and guarantee disarmament.
*Civilian authority in Iraq should be transferred to an international body approved by the U.N. Security Council.
*The U.N.'s Oil for Food program should be transformed into an Oil for Recovery program, to pay part of the costs of reconstruction and transition.
*The U.S. should convene an international donor's conference to help finance the financial burden of paying for Iraq's recovery.
*Women should participate in every aspect of the decision-making process.
*A means should be established to prosecute crimes committed against the Iraqi people by individuals associated with Saddam Hussein's regime.
*A democratic transition will take between 18 to 24 months, although troops should expect to be in Iraq for a longer period.
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_policy_foreign_iraq_7pointplan

As you can see, Dean calls for an unnamed international body 'approved by the U.N.'. It doesn't say: "The UN is to run the civilian affairs of Iraq. " I don't know what international body has in mind. Will it be something new created just for this purpose? Seems like there are a lot of missing details. Kerry's Iraq Plan:

1. GET A UN RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING A MILITARY FORCE UNDER U.S. COMMAND
2. PUT THE CREATION OF A NEW IRAQI GOVERNMENT AND THE RECONSTRUCTION OF IRAQ UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF THE UNITED NATIONS
3. TRANSFER AUTHORITY AND RESPONSIBILITY TO IRAQIS
4. ACCELERATE EFFORTS TO TRAIN AND EQUIP IRAQI SECURITY FORCES
Paying for the Plan
1. FINANCE THE COSTS BY ROLLING BACK TAX CUTS FOR THE WEALTHIEST AMERICANS
2. WINNING THE BATTLE AT HOME
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/iraq_plan.html

in contrast, calls for authority to be immediately transferred to the UN and speedily to the Iraqis, while replacing the occupation force we now have with a true multi-lateral, UN sactioned force under US command.

[dsc]

20. That means the UN would run

the civilian part of Iraq. See, when you get to appoint who runs something, that makes you in charge.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

21. No, an "international body approved by the U.N." would run

the civilian part of Iraq. That's what:

"*Civilian authority in Iraq should be transferred to an international body approved by the U.N. Security Council. "

means. If it said:

"*Civilian authority in Iraq should be transferred to the U.N. "

then it would mean the U.N. would run it.

Really I am amazed, I thought I finally found a topic that was flame proof, two plans side by side, so their respective merits could be discussed, and I'm still having to insist that words have their normal meanings.... :eyes:

[polpilot]

23. Kerry voted to bomb the sheperds. Call his campaign I'm sure they'll

know what to do!!!

Dean '04... Best qualified to clean up the Bush/Kerry mess!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

24. So you approve of Dean's plan to murder children?

It's a stupid game. Do you want to keep playing?

[polpilot]

25. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

.

[pruner]

14. LOL

while it might be tempting to comment on the incessant whining of Kerry supporters, I won't.

instead I'll just laugh.

[LuminousX]

15. Seeing that this is off-topic to this thread

You may want to post this comment as a seperate thread to encourage a discussion of the merits and pitfalls of each plan with the understanding and caveat that none of us will now what Iraq will look like a year from now which may make both plans moot.

[tsipple]

16. About Perceptions of Dean's Supporters

I think there is some misperception that Dean's supporters are somehow misinformed about their candidate. Nothing could be more incorrect. They know his positions on various issues (including the ones they disagree with), they know his strengths and weaknesses (and talk about them directly with the campaign through the Internet), and they know what's coming at them from the Mighty Rove Machine.

"But, but, don't you know that Dean didn't always agree with liberals in his Democratic-controlled legislature?"

Uh, yeah, we know.

"He didn't hold a party after signing the civil unions bill."

Yup. Got it.

"He called Medicare a poorly run program, and he supported cutting its growth from 10% per year to 7% per year."

Yes, we know. He was two years ahead of Bill Clinton on that. And Medicare is a poorly run program.

"He got a draft deferment for a bad back, then he went skiing."

True. He went in for the physical, the doc said, "I can't draft you," and then he went about his normal life. We read all about it. Oh, Max Cleland is a true American hero.

"He returned IBM's phone calls and tried to give them everything they wanted."

Yeah, we know. IBM's the biggest employer in the state of Vermont, providing high-paying high-technology (brain power) jobs, building energy-saving microelectronics above U.S. (not third world) environmental standards. Every chip they make that goes into electronic products requires less electricity. You bet he returned their phone calls.

"He spent lots of money on a prison."

Absolutely correct. When he took office Vermont was shipping inmates out-of-state, away from their families. Dean favored building a prison in Vermont so that Vermont inmates could be closer to their families for all sorts of reasons, including the fact that family contact tends to cut crime when and if inmates are released.

And so on, yada yada.

No, he's not perfect. But he's damn good.

[pruner]

17. very well said

I'm so tired of hearing about how disappointed I'm gonna be when I "find out" about Dean.

"finding out" about Dean is what made me a supporter.

[Cha]

18. That "prison" thing reminded me of

the program he started early in a child's life to keep them out of prisons when they got older.

I can't remember exactly how it went..I'm sure someone will come up with it.

But it meant getting involved early on to make sure a child had a better start to ward off problems later on.