Kucinich Demands Stations Stop Airing Dean Ad

[goodhue]

Kucinich Demands Stations Stop Airing Dean Ad
Candidate Says Ad Gives Misleading Information About Iraq Position

POSTED: 10:50 a.m. EDT October 24, 2003
UPDATED: 11:41 a.m. EDT October 24, 2003

CONCORD, N.H. -- Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich is demanding New Hampshire television stations stop broadcasting ads from rival Howard Dean.

Dean began airing new ads in New Hampshire earlier this week, criticizing opponents for not questioning the war before the campaign.

But Kucinich, an Ohio congressman, points out that he is the only candidate who voted against the resolution in Congress.

Kucinich's attorney has sent letters to the television stations broadcasting the ad. His campaign said he plans to petition the Federal Trade Commission and the Federal Communication Commission about the ads, which he calls false and misleading.

http://www.thewmurchannel.com/politics/2579079/detail.html

[wtmusic]

1. Is Dennis sure he wants to go there?

Don't know the details, but he better BE sure or he's toast.

[eissa]

3. What a whiner

...but I guess those who poll around 0% usually are

[wtmusic]

5. Welcome to DU eissa

:bounce: :toast: :bounce:

[gWbush is Mabus]

he should have said "All my ELECTABLE opponents"

lol

[Egnever]

38. I knew as soon as i saw this add

that Denis would get upset about this.

I wish he had phrased it differently so that Denis couldnt take issue with it.


I dont think either of those adds is directed at denis though. To tell you the truth i dont think the Dean campaign pays much atention to what Denis is doing. Maybe when denis starts polling higher than
single digets in a state they are working there will be adds directly pointing out the differences with Denis. Till then I think they will continue to ignore him.

[ModerateMiddle]

108. "I wish he had phrased it differently"

pretty persistent comment about Howard Dean.

[diamondsoul]

52. Oh Bull.

This is not about whining. Dean tried to dismiss Kucinich as "nobody" in the debates and Kucinich was shut down from demanding his due. You don't like it, TOUGH. Tell your candidate to stop pretending Kucinich doesn't exist.

[Demobrat]

55. But he's not pretending.

Kucinich doesn't exist. At least according to the polls.

[Vis Numar]

63. Wake up dude

"Tell your candidate to stop pretending Kucinich doesn't exist."

Nobody in America, except for 1% of the Dem Party, thinks he exists as a contender.

[snoochie]

81. Boy this is a great bit of logic.

We Kucinich supporters should 'wake up'? Then what? We stop trying to change the fact that over half of the electorate hasn't even heard of him?

Please.

What is going to happen is we're going to make sure that as many people as we can reach do hear about him and his record and his ideas and plans.

Despite all advice, we just keep promoting the candidate we think has the best agenda and the best chance of being elected.

Maybe all the people who think he isn't the right candidate should get some other material. 'He's not electable' obviously didn't work, neither did 'his poll numbers stink'. And 'he doesn't exist' doesn't appear to be working either.

Too bad we Kucitizens all seem to agree that his low poll numbers only reflect the lack of of awareness of a waiting audience.

That just motivates us to get to work knocking on doors, leafleting, etc. :)

[MrPeepers]

114. I'm with you Kucitizens on this one.

I may disagree with Dennis on some points, but I do respect his solidity on the issues. Now that he's taken a shot at Dean, all those Dean people who once extolled the liberal virtues of Dennis and talked about how much they admired him have suddenly started shouting about Kucinich's lack of importance! Reminds me a whole lot of the whole Clark mess... date 'em and drop 'em. He did the right thing in point out Deans failure to recognize Kucinich.

Peepers

[redqueen]

2. I'd have to see the text of the ad...

but if Dean claims "his opponents" didn't stand up to the war, then yes that's very misleading.

It wouldn't be very hard to say "most of my opponents" but I guess that doesn't pack the same punch.

If this is true it's very disappointing. I started out supporting Dean and he's still one of my favorite candidates, but this (again, if true) is low.

[eissa]

6. Thank you, wtmusic

:)glad to join in with some sane people for a change!

[Duder]

24. I've seen the text of the ad and I approve

New Hampshire Ad: DEAN: A hundred and thirty thousand troops in Iraq, with no end in sight and a price tag that goes up daily and the best my opponents can do is ask questions today that they should have asked before they supported the war. I opposed the war from the start because I want a foreign policy consistent with American values and I want to reclaim our rights and our liberties that were taken away in the name of patriotism. I'm Howard Dean and I approved this message because only you have the power to restore the dignity and respect that our country deserves. (10/22)
http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=883

[paulk]

37. Dean is being disingenuous

There are only two candidates who "supported " the war; Lieberman and Gephardt. Dean's divisive campaign is going to rip apart the Democratic Party.

[Andromeda]

131. More than two candidates...

supported the war. You have to include Kerry and Edwards in that mix too.

[Demobrat]

4. Why doesn't he just air his own ad?

And take his case directly to the people?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

83. $$$

[Sean Reynolds]

7. Poor Dennis.

Maybe Kucinich needs to review Dean's ad on Iraq. First he only says, and this is a direct quote, "The best my opponents can do is ask questions today that they should have asked before the war".

Granted he could have said, "The best my opponents, barring Kucinich, Braun, and Sharpton, can do is ask questions today that they should have asked before the war." But that would lose its luster. Someone needs to tell Kucinich this is a CAMPAIGN AD, he isn't going to whore out another anti-Iraq war candidate in his ad. Just like you never hear Kucinich saying Dean, Braun, Sharpton, and myself did not support this war.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

8. As you point out, the ad IS false and misleading.

I don't understand why Dean feels it is necessary to lie about Kucinich in order to promote himself.

[redqueen]

9. Sorry, but the fact is that what he says is misleading.

'His opponents' includes Dennis, and Dennis did WAY more than Dean apparently wants anyone to know about.

And to lump him in with Braun and Sharpton is also disengenuous.

Did you know Dennis actually filed a lawsuit to try to stop the war?

When you consider the breadth of Dennis's actions, this ad really is misleading. :(

[Sean Reynolds]

10. Utter BS!

Don't give me that crap. Kucinich is just pissed that the anti-Iraq supporters didn't flock to his campaign when we went to war. Well guess what, I've heard Kucinich many times state that he was the only member of congress running that opposed the Iraq war. Well no doubt he's right, but IMO that too is a little misleading because it gives the belief that he is the only person running that opposed the war.

If Kucinich really feels he needs to sue Dean because Dean said his opponents didn't ask questions (which oddly enough he didn't say ALL) maybe I need to start second guessing my support for the man.

I have supported DK vehemently here on DU, but now I've got to wonder if it's even worth it.

Did Dean sue the Gephardt campaign for distorting facts when they opened that new website up last month?

Did Dean sue the Kerry campaign for their circulation of a blatantly FALSE statement about Dean cutting elderly benefits to balance the budget?

The only way that ad is incorrect and thus justified for the courts would be if Dean said *ALL* my opponents - he didn't. He stated my opponents, which doen't mean ALL. It's like saying Utahs are Mormons. Well of course Utahns are Mormons, but not all are. Now if I were to say ALL Utahns are Mormons, I'd be wrong, no?

[LuminousX]

13. Kucinich needs to stop whining and start fighting

Here is Dean completely distorting Kucinich's record. Kucinich needs to produce a 15-second spot which basically says "When you are told there was only one candidate who opposed the war, you are being lied to. I am the only member of Congress running for President who opposed the war with Iraq. Not only that, but I'm the only one who wants to bring our troops home immediately and not let them languish in Iraq as targets. Vote for me, Dennic Kucinich."

[Feanorcurufinwe]

15. What's wrong with holding Dean accountable for his lies in court?

How is that not fighting?

[Sean Reynolds]

16. Tell me ONE lie from that ad............

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. The one you pointed out in post #7

[peaceandjustice]

134. that wasn't a lie, and where exaclt does Kucinich stand on free speech?

"The best my opponents can do is ask questions today that they should have asked before the war".
There is his statement. Where is the lie? What can his opponents do today that is better than ask questions? Is it a lie to say they should've asked questions before the war? Dean didn't say None of his opponents asked questions. Only that they, all of them or any of them, should have. Saying someone should've done something is not the same thing as saying they didn't. I should've brushed my teeth this morning...and I did. Democrats should support free speech...and they do. Well, except maybe for Kucinich. His noble vote on the PATRIOT Act aside, he voted for the flag-burning amendment and is now attempting to deny Howard Dean his first amendment right to outline his opposition to the war.

[peaceandjustice]

135. missed that error, it should be exactly, (n/t)

[LuminousX]

17. It is whining... clear and simple

I don't ever want elections to go to courts ever again.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

30. The courts are what keep things fair in this country.

We have three branches of government for a reason. Our system may not be perfect, but I'm not ready to throw out the U.S. Consitution.

Calling using our system 'whining' is just an emotionally loaded negative spin. Little children whine when they are told they need to eat their vegetables. DK isn't whining, he is demanding Dean stop lying.

[LuminousX]

50. Is that how the voters will see it?

The last time the courts protected our rights in an election, we got Bush.

As funny and illogical as it may sound, a candidate has a right to lie. Should Gore have taken people to court when they said he said he invented the internet? That was an outright lie, but what image would that have portrayed.

Kucinich has the goods on Dean. He would get great press by running an ad that clearly demonstrated Dean is lying. Going to court only makes him look like a whiner. I'm sorry if you disagree. I'm sorry you think a candidate should take another candidate to court whenever a lie is spoken about him. Your view of politics and mine differ dramatically.

[snoochie]

80. What's the 'going to court' obsession?

"Should Gore have taken people to court when they said he said he invented the internet?"

Filing cease and desist papers does not equate to 'going to court', ok?

And I think it would have shown backbone if Gore had tried to fight back against the media, instead of trying to 'take the high road' and letting himself get walked on for over a year.

[LuminousX]

84. Voters will perceive this as Kucinich not being able to fight on his own

I'm not saying it is correct or the way the world should be, but it is how the world IS.

No one is stopping Kucinich from doing this, but the end result is it is a bad move.

[Andromeda]

132. The courts only keep things fair

when they don't interfere in elections---like when they selected our last president.

SCOTUS didn't much care about the Constitution when it looked like their boy might lose. The full weight of the Supreme Court was used to subvert democracy.

And they said it couldn't happen in the good ol' USA.

Dean isn't lying and I am disappointed in Kucinich that he would be so thin-skinned and take it this far. This is a political race for President of the United States and you have to learn to roll with the punches. If Dennis is that sensitive, and he wasn't singled out for criticism by Dean, then maybe he doesn't have what it takes to stand up to Bush.

The candidate left standing will win the nomination.

[unfrigginreal]

19. Dean is not distorting Kucinich's record...give me a break.

Dennis is using this to get some press. I understand that, but to accuse Dean of distorting his record doesn't cut it. Dean is only addressing viable opponents in his ads. One of the downsides to Dennis bringing this lawsuit will probably be the elimination of unviable candidates to the debates. I say that because his acceptance into the debates is the only thing that Dennis has to suggest he is a viable opponent of Dean's.

[Egnever]

40. wow that was pretty harsh

but true.

I think its time to start sliming down this field. I like what all of them have to say and its nice to have so many bashing bush but it is becoming increasingly clear who the also rans are. We need more face time with the people who are actualy in the fight so that the real differences in policy can be aired.

I will miss all of them as they start to droop out but at the same time i will welcome the oportunity to get more meat out of these debates than the 60 second sound bytes we have been limited to.

[LuminousX]

70. Out of curiousity

Was this quote intential, Freudian, or just a typo:

I think its time to start sliming down this field.

I thought it was pretty darn funny. Let the slime begin!

[Egnever]

93. well my spelling sucks but ...

I'd like to think it was all three.

[Hawkeye-X]

66. Ok..

Just by looking at your banner, you'll have to cross Kucinich, Gephardt, and Kerry out of your list based on your criteria. Wanna start over?

Hawkeye-X

[LuminousX]

85. How do they fail to meet my criteria?

[redqueen]

14. Logic

"The only way that ad is incorrect and thus justified for the courts would be if Dean said *ALL* my opponents - he didn't. He stated my opponents, which doen't mean ALL. It's like saying Utahs are Mormons. Well of course Utahns are Mormons, but not all are. Now if I were to say ALL Utahns are Mormons, I'd be wrong, no?"'

If you said Utahns (is that really what they're called?) are X, then yes, you'd be saying all of them. If you said Mormons are X, then no, that would not implicate all Utahns in your statement.

Dean said 'my opponents' and that's where he goofed. When you don't specify any limitation, implicitly you are including the group as a whole.

[Sean Reynolds]

18. No I wouldn't...........

Why? Because MOST Utahns ARE Mormon. So when I say, Utahs are Mormon, unless I state ALL Utahns are Mormon, I'd be technically correct. Just like Dean is technically correct when he says his oppenents backed the war. Why? Because most did.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

31. Better go back to school and re-take that logic course.

[Sean Reynolds]

35. Difference between logical and technical.

Dean was technically correct in what he said.

[Duder]

33. DK may be Dean's opponent for president

...but not on the issue of going to war with Iraq. Unless Dennis wants to now change his position to be included with those opponents Dean spoke of.

[diamondsoul]

53. "I have supported DK vehemently here on DU, ..."

Uh, where??

You defend him agains unfair attacks and call that support? No, sorry, that's not the same thing.I defend Dean against unfair attacks but I do NOT support him. One of the reasons I don't support him is his persitant dismissal of the salient points of the Kucinich effort. He KNOWS what he's saying is flat out wrong, and he doesn't care. Sound at all familiar? Seems to me the most despised person on these boards behaves the same way, yet it's supposed to be ok from Dean. Nope. Not selling here, sorry.

Once more, Dr. Dean, "my opponents" and "nobody" are pretty inclusive statements. Both are also completely false.

[FubarFly]

69. Yup, simple logic.

"My opponents" doesn't necessarily imply "all of my opponents." No reason for Dean to give Kucinich a free plug pointing out the distinction. I'm not sure how else Dean could word it without weakening his message. "Some of my opponents" wouldn't have worked...

With that said, I wish Dennis was doing better. He deserves more than his current bottom tier status.

[GreenArrow]

128. uh, yes it does

"My opponents" quite clearly implies ALL of Dean's opponents. Dean didn't qualify things by stating "my electable" opponents, or "the opponents that I'm worried about," etc. The viability/popularity of the opponent does not negate the fact that anyone who has declared his or her self a candidate for the Democratic party nomination is Dean's opponent since they are all vying for the same position.

That being said, I think the whole thing is a mountain out of a molehill. Dean is being dishonest, and as a point of honor he should admit as much. He won't and DK should just let it go. I would lose a lot of respect for him if he chose to take this issue to court. Perhaps a newspaper ad would be the best repsonse since it's likey cheaper than TV time.

The "trouble" with DK is that he believes in fair play, integrity, and honesty, at least as much as any politician ever does, and the sad fact is that those things count for very little in the political game.

Edited for spelling.

[FluxRostrum]

130. truth in advertising

Dean's ads should be held to the same standards of truth in advertising as any corporate, commercial product on the market.

[diamondsoul]

116. Sorry Sean, you're wrong.

Kucinich is VERY CLEAR about himself being the only candidate left in the race who had the chance to and DID vote against the war resolution.

Dean could easily have said "The best MOST of my opponents can do..." instead. He chose not to knowing he was touting a falsehood. Kucinich is extremely careful to ALWAYS be factually accurate.

[Speck Tater]

11. Remember when Fuax News sued Al Franken...

... The only thing this will do is bring more free publicity for Dean. I don't see Dean being hurt by a move that might be seen by many as whining.

[goodhue]

20. latest Zogby numbers

I'm unsure on how this would help Dean as you suggest. Fox news was a known entity and had no legal case. Here Kucinich is largely unknown and is making a valid (although debatable) point.

The latest Zogby poll (http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=750) that Dean supporters are currently trumpeting contains revealing numbers about candidate familiarity. Of the 500 likely voters in the NH democratic primary, only 10 percent are unfamiliar with Dean whereas 59 percent are unfamiliar with Kucinich (down from 65 percent). The upshot of this story will be an increase in the number of people asking "Who Is Dennis Kucinich?", which should marginally help Kucinich but not likely Dean. However, the story is unlikely to have any legs, so most folks will probably not even learn of the challenge (unlike Fox/Franken which the media beat to death).

[gottaB]

105. patterns in favorable/unfavorable/unfamiliar

Hypothesis: Candidates who go on the attack against Dean tend to increase their negatives and decrease their positives among NH voters, irrespective of gains in the level of familiarity.

Evidence.

• Kerry. Attacks Dean. Better known but less liked since August.
  
  
• Edwards. Plays it cool for the most part. Better known and more liked since August.
  
  
• Gephardt. Attacks Dean. Just as well known but less liked since August.
  
  
• Lieberman. Attacks Dean. Just as well known but less liked.
  
  
• Clark. Hmmm.
  
  
• Braun. Plays it cool for the most part. Better known and more liked since August.
  
  
• Kucinich. Attacks Dean. A little better known and a little less liked.
  
  
• Sharpton. Plays it cool for the most part. A bit better known and teensy bit more liked since August.

Conclusion. It's a good hypothesis.

My characterizations of how the others are campaigning vis-a-vis Dean are shorthand, of course. We know things are more complicated and worth discussing. But the general pattern is clear. Candidates don't gain anything in NH by attacking Dean.

It is quite possible indeed likely that the Kucinich campaign realizes this and are making this point for reasons that have little to do with gaining tactical advantage among NH voters.

[killbotfactory]

12. I was going to jokingly suggest that Dean's opposition would demand...

That he be gagged. Dennis beat me to it.

Hey DK, he's responding to attacks from Geppy, Kerry, and Leeby. Not enough to for a footnote in a 30-second ad. Sorry.

[bbmykel]

21. When you are polling as low as Kucinich is

....I guess this makes sense. Any free publicity is a good thing.

Mike

PS OT, Why do so many of Kucinich supporters refer to him solely as "Dennis"? Because his name is a mouthful or is there something more?

[goodhue]

23. Because Dennis Rocks!

n/t

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goodhue]

27. what drivel

No leader? Kucinich is a founder and the co-chair of the progressive caucus in Congress. Poll numbers are low because Kucinich is largely unknown. Kucinich is unknown because he is ignored by media. Sure, Dean stands tall but why does that mean you have to rip on Dennis?

Who Is Dennis Kucinich?

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Ghandi

[demrebel]

32. Dennis is a zero in this dem poll

Shapiro Research Group, a (D) outfit, has the following Georgia poll. MoE +/- 6. No trend lines. (Men | Women)

Undecided 37 (33|40)
Clark 12 (17|9)
Lieberman 11 (11|11)
Gephardt 10 (11|9)
Dean 9 (9|10)
Sharpton 7 (9|6)
Braun 6 (2|8)
Edwards 3 (2|3)
Kerry 2 (3|2)
Kucinich 0

[FluxRostrum]

126. LIARS DO WELL IN POLLS

I won't vote for a liar, we've got one already, thank you very much.

Here's what Dennis was DOING about the war.
http://www.house.gov/kucinich/press/%7Elist.html

Polls are Bullshit... until they support your postion.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=75725

Here's Dennis marching in the streets with The People to stop the war.
http://www.freespeech.org/fsitv/fscm2/contentviewer.php?content_id=525

Here's Dennis being far to nice while he shows Deans Ad at his press conference.
http://www.thechamplainchannel.com/wnne/2579079/detail.html

[no name no slogan]

71. Bullshit.

Tell me, again, how Dennis has no following?

In only NINE days, we packed a 1400-seat auditorium with Kucinich supporters, SRO and overflowing, using NO PAID ADVERTISING-- only handbills, word-of-mouth, and email as a way to get our message out.

The last time he was here, he had 800 people show up. And that was back in August with a campaign operation that was active for all of a month beforehand.

If Dennis is so unpopular, why is he THIRD amongst the political groups on MeetUp.com, trailing only Dean and Clark, while having HALF of their name recognition?

If he's not a leader, why is he chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, the LARGEST Democratic caucus in the house?

While Governor HowDee was busy criss-crossing the country as governor of Vermont, spending his six-figure donation from big energy, my man was busy organizing the REAL Democratic opposition to the war in congress. He got 2/3 of the Democrats to oppose the IWR, even when staunchly opposed by the Repub AND Dem leadership.

Let's look at Dean's "leadership". He got re-elected with ever shrinking margins with each passing term. He was also put in charge by the DNC of recruiting/electing Democratic governors for the 2002 race. If you recall, we didn't gain any new Dem govs-- we lost them.

Dean was also such a good Democrat that a Republican has replaced him as governor of Vermont-- I guess his "coattails" aren't very long, huh?

Dennis led as mayor of Cleveland (a city bigger than ALL of VT) by standing up to the energy conglomerates. He sacrificed his political career because he felt doing the right thing by the voters was more important than caving into corporate interests.

(BTW, the company DK stood up to as mayor later went on to become the same company that caused last summers' massive blackouts out east-- maybe if more people listened earlier....)

Next time, try basing your attacks on FACTS as opposed to your MSNBC-based perceptions.

Smarter Monkees Please...

[snoochie]

76. Thanks for posting this!

There's so much spin about his lack of support. How well he's done in so little time and with so little money is a good signal of how we're doing getting the word out. He's one of the few candidates whose donations have increased each quarter. Let's keep that up! :)

Thanks for the comparisons between Dean's election margin records as Gov. contrasted with Kucinich's - interesting information.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BJ]

29. Ya know, that's about the rudest thing I've seen

I criticize the candidates and I have even labeled Joe Liberman a Republican, but I would never post anything as scurrilous as you have about a fellow Democrat.

If you are an example of Governor Dean's supporters then perhaps I shall rethink my opinion of him as presidential.

[Desertrose]

36. Don't worry BJ...he only knows words that involve "S"

we can all count on JS to share his lovely pearls of wisdom...so predictable that they can be discounted.....

:shrug:

Peace
DR

[paulk]

another example of the " How to win friends and influence people"

Howard Dean campaign.

[Egnever]

39. this comment is out of line

Denis stands firmly behind many core democratic principles. He has fought hard for the truth in congress in many areas. Denis deserves better than what you say here.

I personally dont agree with denis on many things but he is a man of principle and right or wriong thats not shit.

[BJ]

26. He's absolutely right!

Dean's characterization that all the Democratic presidential candidates who currently hold seats in the U.S. House or Senate supported the War Powers Resolution is a distrotion.

It does seem a little shrill and whiney on Kucinich's part but, so far, his campaign has received scant attention. Perhaps this is one way of getting noticed by the "mainstream" media.

[Desertrose]

34. Good lord people....what if this was said about Dean?

You guys...come on!!!
What if another candidate did this to Dean? he deliberately cut him out of the loop as though he were the only one who stood for something when you knew it wasn't true?

And really, take that not electible crap out of this discussion as it does not apply...Dean says "my opponents"....and that certainly includes Dennis- whether anyone else likes it or not.

Dean is using half truths and spin. If he is so righteous and so damn "different", then why the hell does he use old these political tactics?? You guys need to take a real look at what is going on ....what happened to wanting to be told the truth and not more spin & lies???

if Dean protested I bet you wouldn't call it whiningthen, would you?

Peace
DR

[JohnKleeb]

42. He said my opponents last I saw Kucinich is an opponent of his

BTW sheesh guys, it is misleading, maybe Dean doesnt come out and say I was all alone in my opposition to the war but it sure sounds like an implication to me. I dont know what the hell is going on either DR.

[Egnever]

44. sory but single diget support

doesnt make you an oponent.

[Desertrose]

62. Yes it does...

He is a Dem & he is a candidate and for that alone he deserves respect from his fellow Dems. He has more than earned it just for his years in Congress, if nothing more. Some who support Dean can't seem to wrap their thinking around this fact.

As far as poll numbers- they simply do not factor in this discussion. Dean should be responosble for his statements- fact or fiction. I sure as hell would look twice at my candidate if he has to spin his truth in this manner.

Get a grip- Dean is no different than any other politician...it would appear that like so many others- for him the truth is adjustable...

Peace
DR

[Hawkeye-X]

67. I met DK

three weeks ago. I liked what I heard, but I knew he is not a viable candidate. He would have been better off running for U.S. Senate against George Voinovich in Ohio where he will be a much stronger opponent than Fingerhut, and in my opinion, if he continues to say what he said, then most of the Ohioians will flock to the polls and vote KUCINICH instead of VOINOVICH. He has the warchest now, why not use it elsewhere? Under federal campaign laws, he's allowed to do that.

Hawkeye-X

[JohnKleeb]

68. but he is a candiate

and thats what we have been trying to say all day, only to be mocked for the poll numbers that your guy around this time last year stood out. I met him too, and it was one of the greatest honors ever. I tell you win or lose the primary, if he can get the party going where it should be, I will be happy. I dont give a damn about the polls or "electablity", I dont know whats gonna happen. Just because someone isnt polling well doesnt mean they dont exist, I hope that people know that. I try not to lose my cool really, and believe me, I could have exploded today and I wanted to but I decided not to. He could just run for senate if he doesnt make it.

[no name no slogan]

73. because he wasn't DRAFTED to run for Senator

His whole campaign for president was started by THE PEOPLE. After his "Prayer for America" speech was circulated around the country for a good part of 2002, many of those who read it encouraged him to run for President of the USA-- NOT for the Senate.

Other than Clark, how many other candidates can claim they were DRAFTED by a group of would-be supporters? Was Howard Dean flooded with mail from all over the WORLD telling him he should run for president? How about Kerry? How about Edwards, or Lieberman, or Gephardt, Mosely-Braum and Sharpton?

And why didn't Dean run for the Senate instead of President? Wouldn't a little legislative experience tighten up that resume?

And the Geph-- you think he'd be tired of the House after 20-odd years? Why doesn't he run for Senate, too?

And why is it only of Dennis Kucinich that this question gets asked? Why aren't the other candidates asked this?

You know, it's really amazing that a place that purports to be the "Democratic Underground" seems so damn intent on marginalizing one of the few candidates whose platform still reflects the Democratic values that made this nation great in the 20th century.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LuminousX]

94. The Question Always Is

Is he the kind of guy who knows how to fight back when punched or does he file a complaint with a local authority and hopes and prays the system hits the bully back.

Dean handed him a golden opportunity and he turned it into a legalese battle that the voters will just tune out, but Dean will get extra press out of it.

[Egnever]

99. deep in my tinfoil hat mind

I think the dean camp did it this way just to get the extra mileage out of it. Soon as i saw this add i told my wife oh great DU will be filled with irate kucinich suporters for the next few days.

Hell maybe they did. I couldnt care less. Either way the add has allready more than paid for itself in terms of the national coverage it has recieved. If I was Dean I would walk over to Denis before the debate and thank him for making the next few days of media Dean Dean Dean.

Either way they both end up winners behind this. Dennis gets a little much needed press time and dean gets a ton.

I like the results.

No matter what I think the Dean camp is running a brilliant campaign. If they can keep it up he will put a hurting on Bush.

[Desertrose]

98. you really have a problem with DK, don't you?

Oh yes, I sure can tell you respect his right to stand up and "blather on"...maybe you should attempt to open your mind to what he is actually saying... amazing how many people are so sure they have all the answers & knowlege they need that they can keep their minds closed...but then so did the flat-earthers....

I am not crying poor Dennis- did you come up with that all on your own?and victim?? you lost me on that one too....

All I've been saying is that Dean misrepresented ( I won't even say lie) that he is the only one who opposed the war (hell- he didn't even have to vote on it- dennis did- he voted against from the very beginning) and Dean doesn't wanna take it back when he got called on it...said DK doesn't count. How nice of him to decide that one.

if there is someone who is a legend in his own mind, I don't think its DK...
Peace
DR

[Egnever]

101. Yea i have problems with DK

I think hes certifiable.

I dont mind him at all in the house but i dont want him anywhere near the presidency.

I am with dean. Denis doesnt count. He is an also ran. Period.

Department of peace alone assures he has no shot. Theres many other positions he holds I dissagree with.

Nothing is more important to me than getting bush out of the white house when it comes to this election and in my honest opinion and acording to the pols Denis doesnt have a chance in hell of achieving that goal.

I am not a peacenic. I have never been one. I recognize it would be a wonderfull world if we could all be peacenics but i recognize the reality that it will never be that way least not any time in my lifetime or anytime in the past history of mankind.

Denis is becoming an unneeded anoyance at this point waiting for someone to say something he can latch onto for attention in the hopes the electorate will take him seriously if only they would listen to him.

I have tried to be suportive of his right to be in the race as a democratic voice but at this point the only message that seems to come from him over and over is poor me. At this point I welcome sharpton to the process more than denis as denis only seems to reinforce the liberal bedwetter image put forward by fox and friends.

At this point I think he does more harm than good.

[Desertrose]

103. obviously time for us to agree to

disagree.....

we walk different paths...best to you brother.....

Peace
DR

[blm]

111. True colors, just like Dean. Can't get all "weepy and liberal" about this

Dean and his supporters just sucked as much of the liberal antiwar $$$$$$$ they could from the left and then complain that some of those same liberals are a nuisance at this point.

Democratic wing of the Democratic party....MY ASS!

Fucking true colors.

[Egnever]

115. Garbage

if antiwar people suport dean because they think he is anti all war then they havent taken the time to look at Dean. He has never said he was the peace candidate. Still doesnt. Thats Denis.

If you sent your money to Dean because you thought he was anti all wars thats not Deans fault its yours. He has time and time again from the begining that he wasnt against all wars. Perhaps a little investigation into where your money goes is in order.

Where did you ever get the idea Dean was anti all wars?


Denis is a nusance. what has he contributed to the debates? Every time I have seen him hes either chanting like a nutjob or attacking one of the other candidates. He has 0 chance of becoming the nominee and less than 0 chance of beating bush. All he is doing is sucking air time from the people who do have a shot.

Its time to par down the field the first primaries are only three months away. Show me somewhere anywhere where denis stands a shot of wining any state.

I apreciate his atempt to shape the debate but thats all it is. Put any other warm body up there and they would be doing as well. Hell sharpton polls better than denis in a lot of places and he has absolutely no chance in hell of getting the nod.

We have a large field of contenders that actually do have a shot. Kerry Ghep Edwards Clark and Dean all could pull it off. Denis cant.

I know it hurts your feelings and you get all defensive about it but its the truth.

If I thought denis brought anything to the debates that wasnt represented by the rest of the field of real contenders my tune would be different, but i dont see it. Sure hes got the department of peace but thats not going anywhere fast in the climate in america today. what esle does he offer thats different?

I have been quiet on denis for a long time cause it was early and i hadnt seen enough of him. He looks decent on paper but the reality of him is no winner on the national stage. His constant barage of shrill attacks has only made it worse "hello?"

Im tired of the kid gloves. No more yea denis is a great guy isnt it sweet that hes runing from me.

From now on I call it as I see it with him. He has no shot! And if I was president I would make an executive order saying so!

Flame away!

[snoochie]

119. You need to back up a bit, there.

We don't need to flame you, just address the validity of any part of your diatribe.

"Denis is a nusance. what has he contributed to the debates? Every time I have seen him hes either chanting like a nutjob or attacking one of the other candidates."

So when he tries to get a straight answer out of a candidate, that's attacking? When he points out that Dean's stellar record as being a master of all matters economic is tied to state with an extremely homogenous base with the population of a large city, that's an attack? Call me nuts, but to me those are both examples of Dennis making attempts to set the record straight, since this obviously isn't being done by the mass media.

"He has 0 chance of becoming the nominee and less than 0 chance of beating bush. All he is doing is sucking air time from the people who do have a shot."

No, he's shaping the terms of the debate. Way to pay attention.

"Its time to par down the field the first primaries are only three months away. Show me somewhere anywhere where denis stands a shot of wining any state."

I'm not showing you jack, I'd like to post a link about how many people in these polls actually KNOW anything at ALL about Dennis, but I'm short on time right now.

"I apreciate his atempt to shape the debate but thats all it is. Put any other warm body up there and they would be doing as well."

WRONG. Tell me who else up there has done as much, with as little, as Kucinich. This 'point' of yours tells me I'm wasting my time. So this is more for anyone who might be foolish enough to take your post seriously.

"We have a large field of contenders that actually do have a shot. Kerry Ghep Edwards Clark and Dean all could pull it off. Denis cant. I know it hurts your feelings and you get all defensive about it but its the truth."

So, from this comment, I infer that a) you're psychic and b) you have a tendency to make too bold, baseless assumptions.

Dennis has a shot. Sorry if you don't like being told that you really aren't psychic, but your help in reinforcing the 'he can't win' meme is appreciated by those that would keep helping corporate America to turn us into serfs. Geppy seems to have a bit of a record of opposing raising the minimum wage. Care to address that? Maybe there were nasty amendments or the increases were added as amendments onto a nasty bill. Either way I'm not really motivated to support him or anyone else with a similar record (be it for cozying up to energy / talking up deregulation, voting to abdicate one's congressional duties wrt declarations of war, or whatever!)

This is not us being 'defensive'. This is us being flabbergasted that, despite the recognition that 'incremental' change under Clinton and Carter has left us worse off than ever, people here insist on bashing us for daring to support something a little more promising.

"From now on I call it as I see it with him. He has no shot! And if I was president I would make an executive order saying so!"

Thanks for expressing your thoughts on democracy. Pat yourself on the back.

:puke:

[Egnever]

121. thanks for the reply

I have absolutely no problem with you continuing to hold out hope. Hold on as long as you like.

When he gets over 5 percent suport anywhere. I will start taking him as a somewhat serious oponent. As long as his gig is "quit ignoring me!"
he will keep being ignored.

and its exactly denis's thoughts on how he will change everything by executive order that bothers me most about him. Glad you liked the referance to it.

By all means enjoy your time with him and promote your message as much as you like when it starts selling to the american public as a whole maybe we will talk again.

Sory you live in denial land where if only people knew who denis was they would vote for him. But I'll tell you where I am concerned I do know where denis is coming from and I doubt I would vote him into the house if If the choice was presented to me. Hes been listening to the fringe too long methinks.

Beef will become extinct before a vegan is voted into the white house. Call it being psychic if you want. Thats my prediction.

[diamondsoul]

120. You Bugger you!

This one took me a minute to get-

"And if I was president I would make an executive order saying so!"

Ok, ok, thanks for the laugh anyway. And I still love ya.

[Egnever]

125. back at ya!

Really i have great respect for you and many of denis's suporters. Most come accross as very kind inteligent people. I have no beef whatsoever with you I just am at my wits end with denis.

He could be a great candidate. I am not seing it though.


Glad you got the executive order thing :)

[diamondsoul]

117. Eg, once again I love ya dearly-

so I'm trying not to take this post personally.

I respect your right to have your own opinions, and I think that's the one thing that is keeping me from really being wounded on a personal level. I just wish you hadn't been quite so...malicious in this post.

Do you NOT think Kucinich is being short-changed and mistreated? And why exactly do you think he's "certifiable"?

For the record, Kucinich is also not a "peacenic". He has very straighforward and very specific criteria for the use of force, and he will not approve of it unless those criteria are met. They happen to match my own beliefs about use of force, and I think they match MOST of the electorate's views as well-

When there is a direct threat to United States territory, citizens or allies or in defense of the same where an attack has occurred. Iraq met none of them.

Do you find that a "certifiable" position to take? Again, I'm trying to maintain our civil exchanges, so if I've come across as b*tchy, it isn't intentional, I'm just very firm in my support of Kucinich.(also very firm in my fondness for you in general.)

Obviously you're irritated with him right now, and I won't tell you you aren't entitled to think what you think and feel what you feel so that's not what my response is about. I genuinely want to know what disturbs you so about Kucinich.

[Egnever]

124. bah why do you have to be so kind?

please dont take it personaly. It has nothing whatsoever to do with you or your beliefs.

No I dont think Denis is being shortchanged. I think his views dont resonate with many of the american public today. I think he comes across as a complete left wing ideolog and that is something that america isnt even close to being ready for right now. Maybe after a few years of relative peace but absolutely not right now.

Cutting the defense budget looses everywhere right now. Department of peace is fantasy land right now. Singlepayer universal healthcare is fantasy land right now. I know he says we are allready paying for it and we get it for free but who in the world is going to believe that? The only way he would be able to prove that to anyone is through a long listing of numbers that no one would bother to read because that kind of stuff puts them to sleep. So it will be branded a fantasy even if it isnt.

Look I dont hate denis or anything he stands for. But i am tired of his petulance. Confidence is atractive but hes not confident hes over sensitive. Everything is about denis in denis's mind (or so it apears to me) but the reality is no one is even the slightest concerned about what denis is doing, When he starts to pick up in the polls that may change, if he starts to pick up in the pols, but right now he polls lower than sharpton and no one takes sharpton seriously what makes denis think they will take him seriously?.

As far as the certifiable thing goes, it has to do with a few things. First and foremost the mind control legislation, add to that his speaking style of straight monotone and chanting of things, his plan to executive order everyone into submition and his idea that if he gets the nod all of america will vote dem. Its pipe dreaming and scary. I dont think hes actually certifiable but he sure as hell comes off that way when i watch him speak.

Yes i am iritated at him right now. It is not the first time. He pretty much iritates me every time I hear him speak.

I dont have copies of his speaches bookmarked and I dont really want to take the time to look them up to pull some of his loonier comments out of them to give examples but they are in damn near every speach i have heard from him.

This latest action with dean is a perfect example of why i have a problem with Denis. Dean makes a statement that i will agree dismisses kucinich completely but instead of making a press statement and calling dean out on it. What does he do? He DEMANDS! the stations stop airing it. WTF? thats like a two year old stomping thier feet and throwing a tantrum. Forget the fact that the big sin is that Denis just isnt mentioned in deans adds. It just comes off as a rediculous response to something that got under his skin.

Do you or any kucinich suporters seriously think that by dean not mentioning him a huge portion of potential kucinich lovers will write him off because they now think he was for the war? Gimme a break!

Again I think kucinich is an idealist, and i really have no problem with peoiple being idealists. But when it becomes choosing idealism in the face of reality then it starts to bug me. Sure it would be greeat if we could all live in peace, its a great dream. But please show me where in the history of mankind it has ever been acomplished. It hasnt and wishing it so isnt going to make it so.

I am sory if this hurts your feelings, I truely dont mean to be mean but I have had enough of denis and his outrage at not being mentioned.

Its his suport to get or not get he doesnt just get it handed to him. Aparently he doesnt have the stuff needed to get it.

My apologies to your feelings. I am just being as brutaly honest here as I can be. It aint prety but its how I see it.

[snoochie]

129. Am I wrong?

Or does a comment like this really merit no response, or at least one with barely a modicum of respect?

"I think hes certifiable."

[drfemoe]

41. Before he starts slinging petitions around

he might want to check his own claims to "the only" ...
"As a candidate for President, I offer a different vision for America, one which separates me from the other candidates. I am the only candidate who will take this country away from fear and war and tax giveaways, and use America's peace dividend for guaranteed health care for all, ending health care for profit. I am the only candidate who will stop the privatization of social security and bring the retirement age back to 65.
"http://www.kucinich.us/


He uses the word "and" to link fear and war with single payer health coverage .. same with privatization and retirement age .. confusing the issues and his claim to be the "only" candidate with any of these intentions.

I respected him before this .. but we don't need a cry baby for president. This tactic shows clearly why he has no poll showing.

[nator311]

43. he better be careful

Running negative ads this early in the campaign could mean the end for Dean. John Glenn went negative early in his presidential campaign, which disappointed a lot of democratic voters.

[drfemoe]

45. Setting the Record Straight

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/001964.html#more
Campaign Manager Joe Trippi issued the following statement today:

BURLINGTON--"Governor Dean's opponents have been attacking him and distorting his positions for months. " ... "We know the American people understand the difference between results and rhetoric, and when other candidates distort Governor Dean's record of results--as they have for months--we're going to set the record straight." ...

Democrat hopefuls rip chief rival Dean; Kerry, Lieberman turn up heat on front-runner - AP, 9/1
Kerry slams Dean - Boston Globe, 9/1
Democratic White House Hopefuls Focus Attacks On Dean - The Bulletin's Frontrunner, 9/2
Kerry launches campaign, takes aim at Bush, Dean - Seattle Times, 9/3
Kerry Changes Stance, Takes On Dean New Campaign Tactic Highlights Differences Between Candidates - Boston Globe, 9/4
Rivals rip surging Dean - on paper; Democrats blast him in debate handouts - Dallas Morning News, 9/5
Lieberman Leads Attacks On Dean In First Debate - WSJ, 9/5
Dean's Quick Rise Makes Him Target Of His Own Party - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/7
Lieberman Criticizes Dean About His Remarks on Israel - NY Sun, 9/8
Taking a risk, Lieberman takes on front-running Dean - AP, 9/9
Edwards Critical of Dean Over Race Remark - AP, 9/10
Lieberman, Kerry rip Dean; Dems turn feisty in 2nd debate - Boston Globe, 9/10
Gephardt rips into Dean on health care - AP, 9/12
Presidential Candidate Congressman Gephardt Unleashed A Stinging Attack On Rival Howard Dean - FOX News, 9/12

.. more
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/001964.html#more

[no name no slogan]

72. Ah yes, the old standby

Dean says one thing, blogforamerica puts it into proper "terms" for the faithful. :eyes:

Have another sip

[snoochie]

78. This kind of verbage just bothers me.

"We know the American people understand the difference between results and rhetoric..."

But you don't think they know the difference between misleading statements and run-of-the-mill rhetoric?

I think most Americans got too recent a lesson in politicos explaining what they meant to say after some comment is misinterpreted for this to be dismissed - too bad this is becoming a pattern.

[w4rma]

46. Dean is defending his record from this.

ATTACKS BY FELLOW DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES ON GOVERNOR DEAN

STARTING SEPTEMBER 1

Democrat hopefuls rip chief rival Dean; Kerry, Lieberman turn up heat on front-runner - AP, 9/1

Kerry slams Dean - Boston Globe, 9/1

Democratic White House Hopefuls Focus Attacks On Dean - The Bulletin's Frontrunner, 9/2

Kerry launches campaign, takes aim at Bush, Dean - Seattle Times, 9/3

Kerry Changes Stance, Takes On Dean New Campaign Tactic Highlights Differences Between Candidates - Boston Globe, 9/4

Rivals rip surging Dean - on paper; Democrats blast him in debate handouts - Dallas Morning News, 9/5

Lieberman Leads Attacks On Dean In First Debate - WSJ, 9/5

Dean's Quick Rise Makes Him Target Of His Own Party - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/7

Lieberman Criticizes Dean About His Remarks on Israel - NY Sun, 9/8

Taking a risk, Lieberman takes on front-running Dean - AP, 9/9

Edwards Critical of Dean Over Race Remark - AP, 9/10

Lieberman, Kerry rip Dean; Dems turn feisty in 2nd debate - Boston Globe, 9/10

Gephardt rips into Dean on health care - AP, 9/12

Presidential Candidate Congressman Gephardt Unleashed A Stinging Attack On Rival Howard Dean - FOX News, 9/12

Gephardt Attacks Dean on 2 Social Programs - NYT, 9/13

Gephardt accuses Dean of backing GOP policies - Baltimore Sun, 9/13

Gephardt criticizes Dean for past positions - Des Moines Register, 9/13

Gephardt plays hardball with front-runner Dean - Manchester Union Leader, 9/13

Gephardt Shifts Attacks to Dean - WP, 9/13

After Climbing To The Top, Dean Discovers He's A Target Rivals Set Sights On Front-Runner - Boston Globe, 9/14

In A Shift Of Strategy, Kerry Takes On Dean - Boston Globe, 9/14

Gephardt is latest to attack Dean - Chicago Tribune, 9/14

Gephardt Aims At Dean, Linking Him To Gingrich - St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 9/14

Kerry rips Bush but adds Dean hit - AP, 9/15

Gephardt Steps Up Criticism Of Dean, Says He Agreed With 'Gingrich Republicans' - Frontrunner, 9/15

Gephardt: An Attack A Day Keeps The Doctor At Bay? - Hotline, 9/15

Dean becomes a target - Newsday, 9/15

Gephardt Uses Web Site to Criticize Dean - AP, 9/16

Gephardt: Moredeanbashing.com - Hotline, 9/16

Kerry Openly Criticizes Dean's Stance On Tax Cuts For Middle Class Families - Frontrunner, 9/16

Still under attack, Dean goes easy on his rivals - AP, 9/17

Kerry Steps Up Attacks On Dean Over Trade - Frontrunner, 9/23

Kerry Attacks Rival Dean Over Protectionism - NYT, 9/23

Despite interest in Clark, Dean is still top target of other candidates - Philadelphia Inquirer, 9/25

Among the 10, Two Are Tested the Most; Newcomer Clark Avoids Serious Gaffes; Dean Withstands Sharper Challenges - WP, 9/26

10 Democratic rivals debate national woes, attack well-financed Dean and ignore newcomer Clark - Knight-Ridder, 9/26

Democrats spare Clark in his first debate and go after Dean - AP, 9/26

Democratic Candidates Focus Attacks On Dean In Primary Debate - Frontrunner, 9/26

Clark survives debate, as hopefuls target Dean; Candidates' attacks include a comparison to Gingrich - Dallas Morning News, 9/26

Debate Rivals Target Dean - Hartford Courant, 9/26

Debate: All Eyes On The General, All Attacks Aimed At Dean - Hotline, 9/26

Gephardt, Kerry attack Dean over prior views - Washington Times, 9/26

Dean Is Targeted by Rivals - LA Times, 9/26

Bush, Dean under attack in 10-way Democratic debate - Myrtle Beach Sun-News, 9/26

Fellow Dems Diss Dean As Sparks Fly In Debate - NY Post, 9/26

Attacking the Leader; Debate barbs aimed at front-runner Dean - NY Newsday, 9/26

Party unity? The candidates were united, in going after Howard Dean - Phila. Inquirer, 9/26

Dean Takes The Heat From Rivals - Baltimore Sun, 9/26

Clark Debut Doesn't Change Democrats' Focus on Dean - NY Times, 9/27

Democratic rivals target Bush -- and Dean - Salon.com, 9/27

Gephardt attacks Dean Medicare record - AP, 9/29

Democrats: Candidates Criticize Dean's Record On Medicare - American HealthLine, 9/29

Gephardt Compares Dean's Record On Medicare To Gingrich's - Frontrunner, 9/29

Gephardt: Takes His Sparring With Dean To The Sunday Shows - Hotline, 9/29

Attacks on Dean may leave voters dizzy - St. Petersburg Times, 9/29

Dean Rivals Try To Turn His Comments On Key Issues Against Him - Frontrunner, 10/2

Kerry Attacks Dean For Bush Pact - NYT, 10/2

Rivals Target Dean's Blunt Comments - WP, 10/2

Kerry Attacks Dean Over '93 Nuclear Waste Accord - Frontrunner, 10/6

Kerry maintains attacks on Dean over Medicare - DMR, 10/7

Kerry: Still Hammering Away At Dean On Medicare - Hotline, 10/7

Clark, Dean Are Targeted in Debate - LA Times, 10/10

Gephardt roasts Dean on past political moves - Myrtle Beach Sun-News, 10/12

Mutual Threat Unites 2 Rivals Opposing Dean - NYT, 10/12

Gephardt and Kerry unite against Dean - IHT, 10/13

Dean Continues To Draw Fire From Rivals At Des Moines AARP Forum - Frontrunner, 10/16

Other Candidates Again Target Dean; At Iowa Seniors Forum, He Is Chided for Views on Medicare, Bush Tax Cuts - WP, 10/16

'Divers' Dedicated to Dig Dirt on Dean - AP, 10/21

Edwards raps Dean on health plan - Manchester Union Leader, 10/21

Kerry Criticizes Dean Oversight of Vermont Egg Farm - AP, 10/22
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/001964.html#more

[9119495]

47. Wow

And again, wow. Regardless of who one supports, thats just good research.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

48. Dean has lied repeatedly about his own record; now he's lying about DK

Big surprise.

[w4rma]

49. Feanorcurufinwe, why don't you spend some time promoting your candidate

Kerry, who is currently being *whomped* in New Hampshire ($40%-under 20%), Iowa(over 20%-under 20%) and South Carolina (12%-5%) by Dean.

P.S. IMHO, Dean has done a very good job of trying to be honest about his record.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

51. Are you challenging me to produce evidence that Dean has lied

and misrepresented his record and positions? OK.

"Sen. Bob Packwood (R-Ore.): I've said many times that I think we should raise the retirement age about the year 2015--raise it by that time to about age 70.

"Howard Dean: I am very pleased to hear Bob Packwood because I absolutely agree we need to reduce the--I mean, to increase the retirement age. There will be cuts and losses of some benefits, but I believe that Sen. Packwood is on exactly the right track."
--CNN's Crossfire, Feb. 28, 1995
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086804/

Here we have Dean on the record as supporting raising the retirement age.

Russert: ...calling for that, and this is what Howard Dean said. "The way to balance the budget, Dean said, is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut almost everything else. 'It would be tough but we could do it,' he said."
Dean: Well, we fortunately don't have to do that now.
Russert: We have a $500 billion deficit.
Dean: But you don't have to cut Social Security to do that.
Russert: But why did you have to do it back then?
Dean: Well, because that was the middle of--I mean, I don't recall saying that, but I'm sure I did
--Meet the Press, June 22, 2003
http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

Here we have Dean being reminded, and acknowledging, on national TV on June 22 that he did hold this position.

"I have never favored Social Security retirement at the age of 70, nor do I favor one of 68."
--AFL-CIO Democratic presidential candidate forum, Aug. 5, 2003
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086804/

Here we have Dean denying on national TV on August 5 that he ever held that position.

Here's another time he lied about Iraq:

"I'm the only major candidate running, who's in reasonably good shape in the polls, who voted “No” on the Iraq Resolution."
http://www.ourfuture.org/docUploads/dean_062303_131529.pdf

A misstatement? In a prepared speech? And now he is doing the same thing in this ad.

[chimpymustgo]

56. And shall we add: I'm the only white candidate who talks about race

to white audiences. (Big jaw drop from Edwards, who has made racial understanding a centerpiece of his campaign - with more than lip service).

Maybe this should be a separate thread: The Many Lies of Howard Dean.

[LuminousX]

96. the results

And the results of Dean saying that was he got even more air time regarding his stance on racial issues.

At first I thought Dean was just too quick with his mouth, didn't think things through, but now I see a pattern. His detractors will call it lying, though technically he is in a gray area. He is getting more bang for his buck. The broo-ha-ha that comes up around these statements only cements him in the role (everyone now knows Dean cares about race issues) and really hasn't affected him in the polls. At the end of the day, he is still the frontrunner. When he apologized to Graham, I thought Dean was done for. But he kept going. When he was pummelled on the race thing, I was certain that it would haunt him, but he altered his statements on the stump, took all the extra press, and continued to be the front runner.

I don't necessarily support this because I consider it gaming the system, but this is America and American's care more about results than process.

[diamondsoul]

54. Honest about his record?

Where? When? Last I heard his "records" were still sealed.

This is not a shot at you, but Dean has sent me over the edge now. Too many untruths deliberately spit out. He KNOWS, and that's all I need to know.

Again, "NOBODY" means NO BODY, and that's a LIE. "My opponents" INCLUDES DK which makes that a LIE. He's saying Kucinich is "nobody" and that's not acceptable.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Desertrose]

64. I repeat...what do polls have to do with truth?

As far as Dean goes..well...:shrug:

Dennis is an opponent...he is a registered Dem and is also running for Pres along with the other candidates.

Dean is spinning the truth for his own purposes. You can't tell me that (some of) you Dean supporters wouldn't be screaming bloody murder if someone cut Dean out as though he didn't exist?

Good grief, this is not nitpicking....Dean deliberately misled in his ad...if you can't see that then no point wasting time trying to pry open your vision.

If Dean does this now...what can we look forward to if he gets the WH...more like we already have??

Peace
DR

[Egnever]

75. what does this whole thread have to do with the truth?

Dean is clearly speaking about the dems that suported the war. Denis polls at 0% let me say that again 0% where this add is airing.

What in the world makes you think this add has anything to do with Denis?


Truth is Denis is trying to grab attention.

Good for Denis! The pople who "suport him" arent kicking in the cash he needs to get attention any other way so he gets it where he can. I dont begrudge him that.


But its complete horsehit.

[Desertrose]

87. True- a lot of these posts have nothing to do with truth

no doubt about it....but who can discern which is which?

I repeat....Dean is stating something that is not true....why can't you get that? leaving out things is a way of misrepresenting the truth. Dean did that.....

and yes....thats my point...the polls have nothing to do with this....Dennis is an opponent...he is a Dem and is running for Pres. Dean did not tell the entire truth...he spun his ad to misrepresent the truth. That is dishonest when you come right down to it. who is trying to grab attention by not telling people the truth???

As for people supporting Dennis...exactly- we are people...no corporations and no $2000 a plate dinners and big time investors like Dean. and why does Dean get all these investors? cause thy know he wants to keep the status quo.

can't you see what is clear to so many others??

peace
DR

[Egnever]

89. sigh

dean said.....

"the best my oponents can do is ask questions now that they should have asked before the war"

theres nothing untrue about that.

Again this add is not directed at Kucinich. Although kucinich is asking questions that should have been asked before the war. He did ask questions before also. But that not what this add is about.

Kucinich and yourself it seems wants to make it about kucinich. It has nothing to do with him . He is not mentioned at all except in the general sense of being an oponent. I say kucinich is in no position to legitamately call himself an oponent in NH, forget about thinking this add has anything whatsoever to do about him.

As far as your fundraising coment. Dean is not getting the bulk of his funding from corporations in fact i think he had the smalest proportion of large donors of anyone so your status quo theory doesnt even begin to fit.

what i see clearly is a desperate attempt by kucinich to get attention out of something he agrees with.

[Desertrose]

92. sigh indeed..........

Dean said "The best my opponents can do is ask questions they should have asked before they supported the war."

I repeat one last time....
like it or not, Dennis Kucinich is a democrat running for President in a field of nine...by implication...by this misleading statement made by Howard Dean where he does not specifically exempt or exclude Dennis from this statement...]he is implying that Dennis Kucinich supported the war- which is false.

Pretty clear...doesn't matter a damn whether you count Dennis as an opponent or not...it's on the record that he is a candidate- just like Howie Dean is.
If your candidate can't get this part straight and be fair & honest in how he presents himself...where is the fundamnetal difference between what you want and what we already got?
Get it yet?

Peace
DR

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Desertrose]

100. Honey- I am not in the least snubbed....

one more time...they say we learn by repetition...guess this proves it...oh maybe not...

This is more about the integrity & honesty of your candidate, not mine.

OK...here we go....by implication...by his misleading statement where Howard Dean does not specifically exempt or exclude Dennis from saying his "opponents before they supported the war" (Dennis is an opponent) ...therefore he is implying that Dennis Kucinich supported the war- which is false- a lie.

Again...it's on the record that Kucinich is a candidate- just like Howie Dean is- you don't have to like it or agree with it. It is still true however..

If your candidate can't get this part straight and be fair & honest in how he presents himself...I guess we can't expect the supporters to see it either.

so I'll say nitey nite now...this is going nowhere fast...
Peace
DR

[Egnever]

104. Good!

and again for repetitions sake It has nothing to do with denis.

Denis isnt even recognized as being in the race in the polls. I know you dont think they matter jsut because he is a candidate gives him instant status in your opinion.

Just curious did you feel the same way about the stripper in california that ran on the recall ticket? Did you worry that every statement made by any candidate included a disclaimer about her?

I am quite secure in the honesty of my candidate. I am also quite secure in his record as govenor of vermont. If when he wins i will sleep easy knowing he is in the white house instead of bush. Working toward improving all of our lives with health care coverage, getting help for our cgildren with his success by six program, making surre our financial hopuse is in order,,,, the list goes on and on.

You keep having those nightmares aout him lying about kucinich. It will serve you well after kucinich drops out.

[xJlM]

123. Wafflepoweredhoward!

I hadn't seen that site :) It's good to know I'm not imagining that Mr. Dean has a problem with the truth. I've been saying this for months, to much derision from many of the corporals in the Dean Army.

[LuminousX]

90. Uhm, dude, other candidates went to negative ads first

[genius]

57. The trouble is that Dean's campaign is based on misleading the public

Since the news media wants Dean to be the nominee, the lies will continue until right after the nominating process is done. If Dean gets the nomination, everyone will find out that his campaign is based on lies and the Democrats will stay home while the Republicans elect George W. Bush.

[chimpymustgo]

58. Genius - you are.

The push for Dean is so transparent it's frightening.

[Egnever]

60. you mean like all day yesterday

where the lead was how clinton says dean is a bad guy?

or todays coverage where denis says dean is a bad guy?

or maybe you meant last weeks where the coverage was where ghep says dean is a bad guy?

its that damn liberal media I tell you!

[Desertrose]

65. Never said Dean was bad...my questions is why lie?

why the spin if HD is the new candidate? this is the new way of campaigning? if he's all "for the people" then why lie to them?????

Sure sounds like more of the same old to me, egnever.....

Peace
DR

[AP]

106. The media knows that the more Dean is talked about, the more money he gets

so they talk about his all the time, and they make sure he's the focus of the debates. They're not trying to take him down. They're trying to make sure he gest more donations, and they're making sure everthing revolves around him.

[Egnever]

59. more like many of the other campaigns are based

on trying to make dean look like a liar.

Since they have no mementum on thier own.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

61. I can imagine that sinking feeling

if I were a Dean supporter and heard Dean lying about his Social Security position, or first realized that's what he did. 'Why did he say that?' Just like this ad: 'Why did he say that?' Why not just tell the truth? There's nothing wrong with considering raising the retirement age. So why not just say so? There's nothing wrong with being one of the candidates who challenged Bush on Iraq early, instead of the only one. So why make that claim? That sinking feeling is the same feeling I had when I heard Clinton make his 'sexual relations' statement. I thought he was lying. And maybe the subject was not as relevant as a candidate's policy positions, but still, I thought, why lie? Don't answer, or 'fess up, or whatever - but darn, did you have to lie? That sinking feeling just got lower and lower as the Republicans dragged it out and milked it for everything it was worth, effectively ending Clinton's presidency early, poisoning the political atmosphere such that Gore ended up winning so narrowly that they were able to steal the election.

[Thomas Jefferson]

74. I am really tired of watching Dean take credit for other people's ideas

Dean stole Wellstone's line. He took credit for a civil union's bill he was forced into signing. Kucinich was the one pulling the opposition together against the war but Dean, who only wanted a delay in the war, is trying to pretend he was the anti-war candidate. Dean didn't even oppose giving Halliburton $87 billion dollars.

[Alex146]

77. DK just lost my respect...

GO DEAN!

[DrFunkenstein]

79. When Will These Cockroaches Learn...

Watch Kucinich run for cover when Dean shines his big ole' flashlight on him. Then we'll find out who is a true progressive and who is a whiner.

Dean '04!

[snoochie]

82. I can't breathe!

LOL!!!!

Honestly, my sides are hurtin!

Thanks, Dr. :7

[DrFunkenstein]

86. You Can See Him Thinking To Himself

<>

Oh, what I wouldn't give for my flashlight right now! Boy, I'd show them...

[blm]

112. ROTFLMAO.

Hope Dennis holds up a mirror large enough to reflect Dean's bigass ego and punkass mouth.

[snoochie]

127. BWAHAHAHAA

That still cracks me up!
Thanks, Dr! :D

[LuminousX]

88. Quite Simply

It is a good ad for Dean to run. Dean is wrong in his assertion and Dennis needs to correct it. See, it is a solid political strategy. Dean gets twice the media exposure for the price of one ad run.

The media will now cover how Kucinich also was anti-war. After a week, Dean makes some half-hearted apology to the fact that yes, one of the opponents who was in Congress at the time opposed the war, but most of them supported it. The issue dies, Kucinich gets a small amount of press, but unless his numbers turn around soon, he is down for the count as it is. By October 2004, no one will remember this.

Welcome to the big leagues.

[DrFunkenstein]

97. A Real Class Act

Don't let anyone tell you differently.

[LuminousX]

102. I don't. I tape their mouths shut before they have a chance.

[paulk]

109. Is it a good strategy?

Dean's divisive style is alienating a lot of the supporters of his "opponents". His "take no prisoners" campaign pisses people off. You can see it on this board.

Zogby has him at 40% in N.H. That means 60% support someone else - how is Dean going to pick these people up? By insulting them?

Running against your own party will only get you so far - and it surely doesn't help to call them "Bushlite" or "cockroaches".

Cockroaches have a way of multiplying.

[LuminousX]

110. We'll have to see

His 'cockroaches comment' originally directed at those congressman who have sat on prescription drug benefits, both Democrat (Zell Miller) and Republican seems to have supporters of everyone pissed off. So many candidates really want to be victims, they are jumping in front of trains just so they can say "Dean insulted me too."

At the end of the day, we'll have to see how loyal the other supporters are to their candidates.

[Meshuga]

133. You are right but isn't it shady?

Great to know that Dean is learning Bush's tactics. This dirt might work for Dean now against the other democrats but he is in bad shape against the king of dirt and his quarter of a billion.

That's the genius in Dean's campaign; the media will only cover the great things the candidates say or the worse. Anything in the middle is boring and not newsworthy.

Since Dean's campaign can't really have Dean say anything intelligent his campaign plans for him to say outrageous things like the Confederate flag remarks, calling DC democrats cockroaches, Bush-lite, taking credit for positions other candidates take, smear other candidates, and all the other and things that many Dean supporters here in DU protest when used against Dean.

[Tim The Enchanter]

107. This is why I am reconsidering my support for Dean

I have been a Dean supporter, but, as the campaign has evolved, I have been voicing my support less and less while hanging back to wait and see if he is worth my time and effort. I don't think it is wise to ignore Dennis so flippantly. I know alot of people who were once excited about Dean, but who have now lost interest due to his many missteps. I still admire many things that he has done with the "grassroots" campaign, but he is certainly fueling ill will not only between candidates but between Democrats. At this point I am about to throw my support to Dennis. After all, The Lorax was my favorite book growing up.

----------------------

"This is misguided and unfortunate," said Dean spokesman Matthew Gardner, who added that Dean's position on Iraq has been "crystal clear" but wouldn't comment on Kucinich's consistent opposition to the war.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=696&e=3&u=/ap/20031024/ap_on_el_pr/kucinich_dean

[diamondsoul]

122. "..but he is certainly fueling ill will..."

Exactly my biggest problem with half of what he says these days. I take some of it personally, so I know I'm not alone. If it keeps up he WILL have alienated Kucinich supporters, and that's just stupidity on his part.

He's already got me rethinking the ABB pledge, and as much as I despise GW Bush* that's not an easy thing to do. The deliberate omissions of fact are entirely too familiar to me now and I want no part of it from the next President.

[genius]

113. It would be really smart for Kerry to help Dennis out in this

If ads go up pointing out what a liar Dean is, it will help Kerry as well.

[George_Bonanza]

118. It is unwise for Dean-supporters to disgard DK

Because the nation-wide perception is that Dean is, or at least is empathetic to, liberalism. And he has gotten a lot of support from middle-class liberals.