did Kucinich confront Dean at the AFL-CIO conference this morning?

[pruner]

news reports yesterday said he was planning to ask him (face-to-face) about withdrawing/altering the ads, but I haven't seen any follow-up reports.

has anyone heard anything about what, if anything, happened?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pruner]

2. Kucinich is not a senator

kinda funny that you call Dean a loser… seeing how he's never lost an election and is currently the frontrunner, nationally and in most early primary states.

[liberalnurse]

4. Good catch on the Senator thing....

I laughed out loud!!!:bounce:

[dpbrown]

30. He declined to run for Governor in 2000, did he not?

His Lt. Governor was then beaten by the Republican.

Vermont is now governed by a Republican.

Granted, Dean never "lost" an election, but bowing out when he was pretty sure he was gonna get beat isn't exactly winning the state for the Democrats.

Not that you're wrong, but that those facts don't seem to tell the whole story. I believe Dean's re-elect numbers weren't stellar up to the 2000 election, when he decided not to run instead of getting beaten, as well?

[DrFunkenstein]

38. He Was Also Never Endorsed By An Environmental Group

But I'm to see he's a winner. IBM seemed to like him, especially after they won so many environmental awards themselves from him.

[liberalnurse]

3. So, your not

going to vote for Dean? I guess you want another 4 years of georgie boy....

[phirili]

5. Kerry can beat Bush; Dean can't

No candidate can face the American electorate after 9/11, and win on a platform that would have prevented the President from having the option to take action against probable terrorist action.

The repugs love Dean. No wonder Fox is always promoting him in a good light, especially at the expense of Kerry.

[poskonig]

6. Dean's #s good or better than Kerry's

Versus Bushit, of course. Electability isn't an issue among the top tier candidates, since their numbers against Bush head-to-head are close together.

If we are still talking about Iraq in the summer of 2004, this is bad for Bush, not Dean. If you think Bush's numbers on Iraq suck now, wait until you see what is going to happen next summer.

[phirili]

7. Repugs are pushing up Dean's numbers

Just listen to Fox; they say something good about Dean every hour

[poskonig]

8. There is all sorts of polling data out there.

And all of it has the Democratic candidates pretty close in their numbers against Bush, especially recent numbers.

The Dean campaign has a lot of firepower. Though a lot of people have low expectations for Dean, he will do well in the event he gets the nomination. Dean has centrist credentials, is a seasoned, aggressive campaigner, has a talented campaign staff, outstanding ground organization, is willing to take risks, but most importantly, makes the case against Bush to the public clearly and effectively in a manner that doesn't sound like Washingtonese.

[w4rma]

9. Rosenberg: “…Dean campaign is the best-run campaign we’ve ever seen.”

Dean still on top of money race

WASHINGTON, Oct. 1 — In the surreal mind-set of the campaign expectations game, psychology can get twisted at the end of every quarter. Democratic front-runner Howard Dean’s campaign publicly set $15 million as its goal for fund raising for the third quarter, which ended at midnight Tuesday. According to Dean’s Web site he raised $14.8 million, with last-minute contributions still being counted.

DEAN HAD dramatically exceeded fund-raising expectations in the second quarter by collecting $7.6 million. Is his $14.7 million a wee bit of a deflating result for the third quarter? Only if you live on the plane of surreal expectations.

EXTRAORDINARY MONEY MACHINE

Dean’s extraordinary money machine is still far more efficient than anything Missouri Rep. Dick Gephardt, Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, or the other Democratic contenders have working for them.

Dean is on course to have enough money to air television ads and hire operatives in states where fund-raising laggards may not be able to during the hustle-bustle of primaries that will take place in February and the first week of March.
…
“We do believe it is an important decision that we’re going to have to make, because in the end Bush is just raising this money.... They’re going to raise $200 million and spend it against the Democrats between April and August when we go to the convention.... If we make the decision, it would be to compete with Bush. We’ve already proven that we can compete with the other Democrats.”

Simon Rosenberg, who heads the centrist New Democrat Network, put the Dean bounty in perspective by noting that in a 10-candidate field the former Vermont governor was able to raise 50 percent more than Bill Clinton raised in the best quarter of his 1996 re-election effort. Rosenberg called Dean’s feat “almost miraculous” and added, “We have to recognize that the Dean campaign is the best-run campaign we’ve ever seen.”

Taking the party-wide view, Rosenberg pointed to what almost no one else has noticed: Based on the preliminary estimates for the third quarter, the 10-person Democratic field collectively will have outraised the Bush campaign, an indication of how fired up Democratic donors are.

“If Bush is this supposed fund-raising king, then this so-called ‘weak’ Democratic field — to use Karl Rove’s word — is outraising him,” Rosenberg said.
…
http://www.msnbc.com/news/974339.asp
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=52916

…
If the next general election were held now with Bush as the Republican candidate and retired General Wesley Clark as the Democratic candidate, 43 percent would vote for or lean towards Clark, while 49 percent would vote for or lean towards Bush; an increase of two percentage points for Bush over Clark from the Newsweek poll of October 9-10, 2003, when 47 percent would vote for Bush and 43 percent for Clark, a statistical dead-heat. A matchup between Bush and former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean would see the same result: 49 to 43 percent, a narrower margin (six percent) than in the last Newsweek Poll when Bush led Dean by nine percent. By comparison, Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry trails Bush by 42 v. 50 percent, Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman trails Bush by 43 v. 50 and Missouri Rep. Dick Gephardt trails Bush by 42 v. 51 percent, the poll shows.

Among Democrats and Democratic leaners, Dean has overtaken Clark as favorite for the party's presidential nomination for the first time since Clark entered the race, with 15 percent. Close behind, 12 percent favor Clark, while Kerry, Gephardt and the Rev. Al Sharpton are tied at eight percent each.
…
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031025/nysa015_1.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=68276

…
Pollster John Zogby: “This is stunning. Dean leads 43-20 among Democrats and 35 to 11 among Independents. He hits 40 among all age groups, union and non-union voters. His lead is 57-17 among self-described progressives, 50-20 among liberals, and 34-14 among moderates. Married voters give him a 38-13 edge and singles a 45-21 point lead. He holds huge leads among all education groups, among investors and non-investors, men and women. This qualifies as juggernaut status. Can he be stopped?”
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=750
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=67277

[phirili]

11. Dean has the Democrat antiwar crowd but

being antiwar after 9/11 is not a position that will resonate with the general American public.

Anyone who is ahead in the polls will be deemed to have a great organization structure, this is not necessarily true; in Dean's case it is due to his frequently stated opposition to the Iraq war resolution, support of the antiwar crowd, and the repugs affection for him.

Raising funds will not be an issue for the Democratic nominee. What we need is a leader not a cheerleader.

[wtmusic]

13. being antiwar while losing a soldier a day in Iraq

seems to be tremendously resonant with the American public.

[w4rma]

20. You're darn right that we need a leader, not a cheerleader.

ANALYSIS: Dean has ridden luck, instincts to top tier
Ex-governor among three leading candidates

Edwin Granai chuckles at the suggestion that former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean can't be elected president.

"I was state party chairman when he started out in politics in the Vermont House back in the 1980s," said Granai, a one-time gubernatorial candidate. "I said then, to anyone who would listen, that Howard Dean would run for president someday.

"My take on him, from the very beginning, was that he is almost flawless in terms of political instincts," Granai said. "I think it is very possible for him to make it to the White House."

For most Vermonters, accustomed to the prospect of bumping into their governor at the supermarket or, in Dean's case, the hockey rink the thought of Dean as presidential contender is hard to imagine. Nationally, few gave him any chance of making a mark in the 2004 campaign.

Today, though, Dean stands as one of the three leading candidates for the Democratic presidential nomination. The latest polls have him third in Iowa and second in New Hampshire, the first two battleground states of Campaign 2004.

Win or lose, Dean's impact on the 2004 contest has been profound. He was the first Democrat to begin campaigning and the first to raise enough money in 20 states to qualify for public financing. Last week, he became the first to run television ads in Iowa.

More important, he was the first candidate to question the wisdom of the Bush administration's war against Iraq. His antiwar stance, more than his calls for health care and balanced budgets, appealed to the party's liberal, activist base and forced his rivals to explain their sometimes contradictory positions on the conflict.

Plus, Dean openly has challenged his party's cautious stances on a variety of issues by urging Democrats to remember their roots. The strategy has made him the outsider in the race, exactly the label he wanted.
…
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/specialnews/dean/9.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=68541

[killbotfactory]

26. 30% of the country was opposed to the Iraq war

And that was when the bombs were dropping. If you think 30% of the country are anti-war peaceniks, you're out to lunch.

[redqueen]

33. 30% favored WAR with or without congressional or UN support...

and that's the crowd we should appease! Only 79% favored an invasion of Iraq if the U.N. approved. And 69% favored an invasion if Congress approved.

Lets ignore those solid majorities and go for the 30%... makes perfect sense. And heck, with that congressional support we got via the IWR (Thanks, Dick, you should use those rose garden photos!), it makes it look more official-like and 'right' and all. Less like it was all a fraud cooked up so this kleptocracy could pursue PNAC's goals, right?

So ... those 30% that supported it with or without support before the war, they probably don't even care a thing about all the lies that are being revealed now, so yeah... I agree completely.

We should definitely try to cater to that gang's interests.

:crazy:

[drfemoe]

34. hey hey hey

It is TRUE .. many republicans are going to vote for HOWARD DEAN!!!

We see that as a Victory! A vote is a vote is a vote ...

http://atlblogs.com/republicansfordean/

--snip--
"I understand your reluctance, but Governor Dean’s sincere message, informed positions, and demonstrated executive office experience have drawn me away from the GOP after 16 years, during which I had run locally as a Republican, had campaigned for Republicans, and had voted for many Republicans. If someone hadn’t started the conversation about Howard Dean, I might not have known that I had a legitimate fiscally responsible, socially conscious alternative. In my case, a lifelong liberal Democrat opened the door. "

[redqueen]

35. We can take them at their word, they're really Fair and Balanced now!

Cool!
;)

[Rose Siding]

10. Iraq had what, exactly, to do with "terrorist action"?

Now it's a recruiting poster, but what connection before the invasion are you alluding to?

[phirili]

12. Iraq connection to 9/11 was

invented by shrub's administration, by overstating the intelligence.

After congress receiving flawed information from the White House, shrub got overwhelming support from Congress and used it in a disastrous manner.

Can you blame Kerry for not taking chances with the tales told by the White House after 9/11.

Only the lyers knew then what we all know now.

[wtmusic]

14. I can blame him for handing GWB a blank check

you better believe it.

[phirili]

15. Blank check should not have been cashed

to pursue a non-terrorist agenda.

Based on the intelligence provided it was the correct decision to give the President a blank check.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wtmusic]

22. Wrong

Based on any information whatsoever...

it is the legislative branch's duty to provide a check to the power of the executive branch.

They failed in their duty and John Kerry helped them do it.

End of story.

[redqueen]

31. Even offering the blank check was an abdication of their duty.

This was a clear and unnecessary abdication of their congressional duty. That should never have happened and I hope it never happens again.

"Based on the intelligence provided it was the correct decision to give the President a blank check."

Due to the fact that they should never have done this to begin with, the above statement is obviously wrong, but it screams out for correction nonetheless.

The intelligence provided, even in the NIE, cautioned against war.

This is true no matter what came out of the 'office of special intelligence', which was formed specifically to dig up the 'right' evidence, which they needed in order to proceed with their plan, which was made years before.

The more accurate situation, however, was clear for all to see. There was a great effort to mislead, but many people were not fooled, including several in the Senate and many in the House. Both in this country and many others, the threat posed by Iraq was debated and judged not to be imminent. One anecdote I remember, which helped to illustrate the administration's zeal for war, was an intelligence agent who states they were instructed to 'show a little leg' -- and there are many more examples of the pressure that was used to get the answers they wanted.

Abdicating the duty of congressional oversight of the executive branch's power to start wars was wrong and it will never be a correct decision. Since this abdication is 'explained' by the legilsature's having been duped by intelligence which was widely discounted, and even believed to have been 'cooked-up', 'hyped', 'sexed-up', or whatever other description you prefer, I'd like to know if their having been 'fooled' by this administration's nearly transparent imperialism was due to their ignorance or their complicity.

[diamondsoul]

24. "Only the lyers knew then what we all know now."

Funny, seems to me Kucinich knew then what we know now. Are you suggesting Kucinich knew more than Kerry, or that he's a liar?

Sorry, just pointing out the flaws in your statement as written, no offense meant. I don't fault Kerry for his vote either. Lieberman and Graham are the two I do fault for the support, and mostly because they'd have been even more violent in their response. Kerry, imo, fell back on military thinking. Nothing at all wrong with that, to my mind. There IS a purpose to that training, and he followed the logical course from it.

John Kerry is a good man with some really good plans. It's a damnable shame that all the contenders right now have to struggle to get out from the corporate endorsed shadow of Howard Dean, and yes, I know, I'll be flamed for that statement.

Ah well. As one friend and Dean supporter says "I calls'em like I sees'em.".

[killbotfactory]

27. As a Dean supporter, I officially flame you for this statement

It's a damnable shame that all the contenders right now have to struggle to get out from the corporate endorsed shadow of Howard Dean, and yes, I know, I'll be flamed for that statement.

Consider yourself officially flamed.

Sincerely,
KBF

[diamondsoul]

28. ROTFL

Jeez, KBF, that's IT?! Where's the refutation, all about "People Powered Howard" and stuff?? Dang, and here I was looking forward to all that stuff.

C'mon, man get with the program here, you're supposed to have "drunk the kool-aid"!

[Egnever]

32. Why you.........!!!!!

I agree one hundred percent with your statement that plenty of people knew this was BS long before the vote was taken. I knew! KNEW!

I dont think anyone taking a serious loook at the situation could have ever credited Iraq as an iminent threat.

Unlike you I dont give anyone a pass who voted for it. Like I said I knew they should have.

Your corporate endorsement of Dean doesnt have a leg to stand on. But it is a great jab. Way to stick it to the man!

[diamondsoul]

36. Uh-oh!

No fair getting mad at me now when I've taken a few of your recent jabs at my guy!

As far as the comment about Dean, that's the way it appears to me right now. He's getting an awful lot of money from employees of some of the biggest corporations in media and I'm sorry but it makes me suspcious. That's not to say Dean is doing anything wrong, and for all I know he doesn't KNOW where the contributions come from. I seriously doubt any of them have the time to pore over their fundraising figures at the moment.

Something about the way Dean's campaign has shot up just doesn't sit right in my head, and it's been bothering me for a while now. That's the thing, though, I'm not pointing a finger at Dean. Something just instinctively feels *off* about the way things have been playing out. All I can say is my mother taught me to trust my instincts, and my instincts are telling me somethin' just isn't right here.

Then again maybe I'm just paranoid and need to get out more.;-)

[The Sushi Bandit]

17. So what did these ads say????

?????

[pruner]

18. see for yourself

windows format: http://www.howarddean.tv/v2/streaming_pages/wmp/ad-iraq_256k.asp

Quicktime format: http://www.howarddean.tv/v2/streaming_pages/qt/ad-iraq_256k.asp

[Vis Numar]

19. Pretty kickass ads

if I might say so myself.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

29. As long as truth is irrelevant...

[genius]

21. Perhaps they should start calling him Howard the Liar

It pretty well describes him.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goodhue]

25. so did Kucinich confront Dean at the AFL-CIO conference Sat morning?

Just wondering.

[FluxRostrum]

37. Could someone answer the damn question....

Dennis calmly called for Howard Dean to stop lying.

Apparently Dean has taken a play from the Republican hand book... If you repeat a lie enough times people will believe it.

For those who don't know how strongly Dennis challenged this uncalled for war... try this one on for size Kucinich @ F15 NY War Protest ... or this one from 9-3-02.... better yet just go to the clip that caused thousands to request that Dennis run for President Prayer for America this speech was made in Feb. 2002. Kucinich was EXTREMELY active in denouncing this war BEFORE it started.

What, if anything, did Howard Dean DO to stop the war?

Howard Dean needs to look at this page.
http://www.house.gov/kucinich/press/%7Elist.html

Howard Dean's Video Ad campaign needs to be held to the same truth in advertising standards as any corporate, commercial Product on the market.

[DrFunkenstein]

39. Dean Believes In Justice And I'm Sure He'll Change The Ad

Dean is a long-committed progressive. You might say he's taken up the banner of Paul Wellstone's democratic wing.

[FluxRostrum]

40. sure

You might "SAY" that. You'd be incredibly wrong and uninformed, but you might "say" that if you didn't mind lying to distort someones past for future gain.

[FluxRostrum]

41. Pruner

How can you support a candidate that will treat you like a criminal if he's elected?