Number of uninsured peaks under Gov. Dean - federal data shows

[DJcairo]

Table 2 – Estimates of the Percent Uninsured in Vermont, 1987-2001

CPS RWJF Year US VT /

State
1987 9.8%
1988 10.7%
1989 8.8%
1990 9.5%
1991 12.7%
1992 9.5%
1993 11.0%
1994 8.6%
1995 13.0%
199 11.0%
1997 9.5%
1998 9.9%
1999 11.1%
2000 8.6%
2001 9.6%


http://www.leg.state.vt.us/jfo/Vermont%20Uninsured.pdf.

All Dean said when these figures were released was that "Everyone knows how unrelaible federal figures are"

[Frangible]

1. huh?

I looked at that link. The fed unisured rate has done nothing but climb. Meanwhile Vermont's is lower -- 9.6% in 2001 instead of 9.8% in 1987.

I don't see a "peak" under Dean. I see a declining trend while the rest of the US has increased. That's what the data shows.

[arcos]

3. DJCairo is an excellent DJ...

he certainly knows how to spin.

[boxster]

4. I agree that there doesn't seem to be a peak, but it's certainly not

a downward trend, either.

The percentages fluctuated up and down throughout the period and ended about where they started. A 0.2% drop in 14 years doesn't sound like much to me.

[Name removed]

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[La_Serpiente]

11. Scott Huminski

I think is very active in HawaiiIndyMedia. Yes, Scott is always at the Kerry blog and blah blah blah. He must be from Hawaii.

[wtmusic]

8. DJ, did it ever occur to you

that misinformation reflects badly on your candidate?

[AP]

9. Where's the misinformation?

?

[Padraig18]

10. Read the data. n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

49. In other words, there is no misinformation you are able to point out.

[genius]

12. But the Dean people won't look at the truth

I have never seen such a pack of blind followers except for the people kissing Bush's feet after 9/11. Probably the same people.

[Padraig18]

13. What 'truth' is that?

Care for some kool Aid? :eyes:

[LuminousX]

16. Let's take all the Dean supporters and tar and feather them

the no good rotten scoundrels.

Everytime someone attacks the Dean supporters as if they are all 'blind' or stupid, it burns me up. At the end of the day, these people will have to pound the street and have the same level of passion for the candidate you support if your candidate wins. Be careful.

[AP]

20. Why is the response always to exaggerate?

Eg:

Q: Dean wanted to cut medicare?
A: Oh, yeah, Dean eats people.

Q: During Dean's term, the number of uninsured went up 30 to 40 percent more often than it went down?
A: Let's tar and feather Dean supporters.

[dpbrown]

15. So the average is 10.22 overall

And Dean became Governor when Governor Snelling died of a heart attack on August 14, 1991. Dean declined to run in 2002 (his re-elect numbers had consistently declined), and his Lt. Governor, Doug Racine, lost to Republican Jim Douglas. Vermont is now governed by a Republican.

If you just take the years that Robert Snelling was Governor, the average is 10.3 (including 1991 because Snelling and Dean split that year).

If you just take the years Dean was Governor, the average jumps to 10.41 (including 1991 because Snelling and Dean split that year).

So it would seem that the only argument in favor of Dean's having gotten the uninsured numbers down compared to previous administrations would be to argue that the numbers are unreliable. Otherwise, even though all the peaks included in this sample (12.7 in 1991, 11 in 1993, 13 in 1995, 11 in 1996, and 11.1 in 1999) occurred under Governor Howard Dean, as long as the numbers are unreliable the Dean folks can still claim that Dean has some inherent believability regarding what to do about health care.

Heaven forbid the "doctor" join with the more than 8000 other doctors in calling for common sense 100% coverage (not 91.4% - the highest achieved under Dean) through federal single-payer instead of just throwing more money at a broken system and cutting other social spending to do it - risking being labelled a "tax and spend" Democrat.

No, these numbers don't show any dramatic changes for health care coverage under Dean, and maybe that's the greater story - he didn't really make things any better for health care for Vermonters after all.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[blm]

17. But, the CHIPS bill helped expand it for children in every state.

Thankyou Senators Kennedy and Kerry.

[dsc]

19. He took over in Noveember of 91

so splitting that is dishonest which is par for the course with Dean bashers so I shouldn't be surprised.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dpbrown]

28. The average is 10.18 without 1991

If 1991 can be chalked up to Snelling, then the average for the Dean years is slightly less than the 10.22 overall average, but still contains all the highest peaks, including the 13% year.

So not only does skewing the numbers to appease the disciples not give Dean a resounding lead over Snelling (R) for the time period listed above, it still doesn't support an argument that Dean made health care coverage substantially better for Vermonters.

In Dean's best year, he still only achieved 91.4% coverage. (Remember, your argument is that the figures are unreliable.)

His "plan" is to throw more money at the broken system of separate private insurers to get closer to what he got in Vermont (which regardless of whether the numbers are reliable or not was not 100%) instead of standing up with 8000 doctors in calling for federal single-payer and one insured pool of all Americans, guaranteeing 100% coverage at the same cost we're paying now or less.

Dean's plan is broken before even being tried, and that's why his disciples are so bent on hawking the failed but it'll paaaaaaass mantra they've learned so well.

So go ahead and take the 10.18 average and console yourself with it, whimper about Dean-bashers, and be happy that you weren't one of the nearly 1 out of 10 people who couldn't get health insurance in Howard Dean's Vermont.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[dsc]

64. No I am among the one in 5

who can't, as opposed to won't in many cases, in Ohio. Yea am so much better off.

[dpbrown]

68. Good thing Dean's not the Governor of Ohio then, right?

Since the numbers showed that he basically maintained the status quo in Vermont.

[loyalsister]

70. His is broken?

There is simultaneously a Dr. lobby to get malpractice insurance reformed. Malpractice insurance is something they need, single payer or no.
Ins companies have been gouging Doctors on this for a very long time. They raise the rates significantly on ALL insured rather than just high risk insured.
Tell me exactly how DK manages this. If he is going to limit the profitibility for insurance companies. Where are they going to make up for that? You know they will find a way. It will be with Doctors, car, home, and\or disaster insurance.
Tell me how it is that the DK utopia of damaging capitalism coming to a halt within hours of his inauguration is preserved?

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

62. Sorry I made a mistake

but it bears pointing out that splitting the year (in half) as you did was still wrong. I will admit that I error. BTW I do have a life believe it or not. I went to bed pretty much directly after that post and got home from work 40 minutes ago. You saracstic caustic tone isn't needed and doesnt' help your case.

[dpbrown]

65. Your "par for the course for Dean bashers" was disrespectful

You've had my response, including the cites to places that showed the date Dean took office, deleted twice now.

The tone you took was irritating and disrepectful.

I "included" 1991 because Dean took office at roughly mid-year. I thought that would make it more "fair" not more "unfair." The point I made, if you read it not from the standpoint of expecting to be bashed, was that the numbers didn't show a dramatic upsurge under Dean, that the major argument in favor of Dean was that the numbers were unreliable, and that the high points in lack of coverage were all under Dean, anyway.

I concluded that the major point, and one not made by the original poster, was probably that Dean hadn't really made things better, insurance-wise - and maybe that was more significant than whether he made it worse or not.

Taking it out made little difference. The averages are still in the 10% range, and the peaks are still under Dean in lack of coverage.

Whether or not the numbers are unreliable, Dean still doesn't look like a miracle-worker in getting people covered with conventional health insurance in Vermont, despite a big infusion of federal dollars.

Dean will be open to being smeared as a "tax and spend" Democrat with his health care plan, because it can be summarized as simply throwing more money at a broken system to buy coverage by making private insurers even richer without making them any less likely to exclude people who are more likely to use the insurance - and that's the scheme that no plan other than universal single-payer addresses.

As a plan goes, universal single-payer is still a more economically sound option.

And as a baiting post, yours should have been the one deleted.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[dpbrown]

66. No, he took office on August 14, 1991

"Dean was thrust into the governership when Gov. Richard Snelling (R) died suddenly in August 1991."
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean.html

"Dean was elected to three consecutive terms as lieutenant governor; on August 14, 1991, Gov. Robert Snelling suffered a fatal heart attack. Dean was treating a patient when he heard the news and rushed to Montpelier to a hasty swearing in ceremony."
http://www.bop2004.org/dtaweb/bop2004/default.aspx?SECTION=CANDIDATE&CID=8

"HOWARD DEAN, M.D., was born in New York City and grew up in East Hampton, New York.... He became governor upon the death of Governor Richard A. Snelling on August 14, 1991."
http://www.nga.org/governors/1,1169,C_GOVERNOR_INFO%5ED_163,00.html

It's a sad state of affairs in which posts that denigrate broadly by using phrases like "par for the course for Dean bashers" are allowed to stand, but rebuttal posts, including links to the facts, are deleted.

Back off, post deleters.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[JaneQPublic]

21. Read the text of the report

...by available measures the state has one of the lowest uninsured rates in the country.

---snip

...Using the same survey, Vermont’s rate is consistently below the national rate. Vermont’s rate has fluctuated substantially, but appears to have a longterm rate of around 10%.

---snip

Some health care analysts believe that the CPS (Current Population Survey, the source of the above-cited estimates) underestimates the number of people on Medicaid and thus overestimates the number of uninsured. At least one other state (Wisconsin) that does its own survey reports an uninsured rate substantially lower than the CPS estimate.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

23. Good point. The number of uninsured in VT under Dean didn't go down.

According to what you quoted.

[mzmolly]

26. Nor did it go up under Dean's leadership.

According to what was quoted.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

27. Dean - champion of the status quo

Inspiring.

[dpbrown]

30. LOL - Exactly!!!!

And that's what I've been saying all along.

What good is "taking back" the country if you don't have a decent plan for what to do with it once you get it back?

[mzmolly]

33. Kerry supporters and Kucinich supporters standing united.

Touching.... ;)

[blm]

41. No surprise. We're liberals.

.

[mzmolly]

76. But is Kerry "A True Progressive"

;)

[mzmolly]

31. Almost as inspiring as standing with The President on the War...

However, I'd like to shed some light on 'some' of Dean's accomplishments in Vermont.

The Vermont Record

Governor Dean's leadership on these critical issues in the past decade has delivered proven results in Vermont and better lives for Vermonters and their families. Other states - and candidates running for office throughout the country - are borrowing from Vermont's successes.

Fiscal discipline. In the first half of the 1990s, Governor Dean imposed strict fiscal discipline that led the state out of an inherited $60 million deficit. He cut the income tax three times, removed the sales tax on most clothing and shoes to help working families, and reduced the state's long-term debt. In 1991 Vermont had the lowest bond rating in New England. Today Vermont has the highest rating in New England, AA+. Since 1996 under Governor Dean's leadership Vermont's per capita debt has dropped by 23 percent.

Health care coverage. Governor Dean strengthened Vermont's Dr. Dynasaur program to guarantee health coverage for virtually every child age 18 and under. Over 92 percent of all Vermonters have coverage - one of the highest rates in the country - and 96 percent of all children under 18 are covered. Dean believes the United States needs a health care system which results in coverage for every American.

Mental health. In 1997, Governor Dean signed into law the nation's most comprehensive mental health and substance abuse parity bill in the nation, ending discriminatory insurance practices against these major diseases. The Governor has been a strong proponent of community-based treatment, as well as comprehensive services for children with serious mental health problems.

Education. Like other leading states, Vermont adopted high standards testing which has resulted in significant improvement in school accountability. Unlike other leading states, however, Vermont has adopted a system of sharing educational dollars across the state, so schools in poor communities have the same financial backing as those in wealthy communities.

Environment. Under Governor Dean, Vermont has closed more than 70 landfills, increased the percentage of recycled waste to nearly 40 percent of all Vermont waste, and set aside hundreds of thousands of farm and forestland which will never be developed.

Equality. Building on a commitment to equal rights for all Americans, Governor Dean has signed into law tougher penalties for hate crimes, as well as tighter restrictions against discrimination in the workplace, housing, public accommodations, and more. Vermont is the first state to legally recognize long-term committed unions between gay and lesbian couples.

Status Quo? Nah.

[no name no slogan]

35. When in doubt, change the subject

I don't recall anywhere on this thread where one's votes on the IWR were discussed, and what bearing they had on the healthcare situation in Vermont during Gov. Dean's tenure.

And quoting the good Dr.'s own site will not do one whit to answer the points raised by this report.

We need true UNIVERSAL SINGLE-PAYER healthcare. The kind the late Senator Wellstone fought for in the Senate in 1993, when Clinton proposed the kind of half-arsed plan that Dr. Dean is proposing now. It's the SAME kind Kucinich is proposing TODAY.

[mzmolly]

37. I addressed the subject. Subject 1. Dean on Health Care and Subject 2.

inspirational actions of our Candidates as put fourth by the poster I responded to.

In addition, Dean has said he would sign a "single-payer" plan if he is presented with such a plan as President.

Also, see post # 34 if you want an impartial view on Deans Health Care accomplishments.

Speaking of changing subjects, you mentioned Paul Wellstone. Perhaps you'll be comforted to learn that he and Dean share some views on Health Care.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A51541-2003May13¬Found=true

"Dean said he could achieve near-universal coverage by dramatically expanding the existing state-administered Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) and by offering tax subsidies to other individuals to help them buy into the system that covers members of Congress and federal workers."

http://www.issues2002.org/Social/Paul_Wellstone_Health_Care.htm

"Wellstone introduced legislation to make any health care reform that passed the Senate as good as that which is provided to Members of Congress. He also wrote the Patient Protection Act to protect consumers and health care providers. He led the fight to protect Medicare from arbitrary cuts. In the summer of 1996, the Senate approved legislation he authored to require health insurance policies cover mental illnesses in the same manner as other physical illnesses."

[no name no slogan]

45. Shared "some" views, yes,

just like I share "some" views with Shrub. For example, I like sunshine, so does the Shrub. I don't like to see people needlessly killed, so does....oh, waitaminute.

The main reason I brought up wellstone was your avatar of the Green Bus and your sig line. I just find it ironic that for being such a fan of Wellstone you don't support a candidate who more closely shares his views on the issues.

I was there early on in 1990, fighting for Paul at the precinct level caucuses, when the Mondales and Humphreys were busy backing the "electable" Tom Berg, who was more suburban, more "moderate", and more "digestable" as a candidate. We shocked the DFL that year by nominating a real progressive, who went on to shock the nation by beating Mr. Moneybags Boschwitz in the general election. He even gave Rudy Boschwitz a second trouncing, just for good measure, in 1996. He faced a tough race in 2002, but he had a lot of help from the people and several members of congress, including Dennis Kucinich, who even made the trip to MN to help him out.

Paul supported the CHIPS measures in 1996 AFTER Clinton's sorry excuse of a plan was defeated in 1993. Paul Wellstone and the other progressives supported a true UNIVERSAL plan, which was single-payer, and covered not just 91.x% of the population, not "near-universal", but EVERYONE.

In addition, Dean has said he would sign a "single-payer" plan if he is presented with such a plan as President.

Well, I'm quite sure he will. But waiting until he is presented with a plan vs. proposing the plan are two VERY different things.

For example, I could wait to have this funny-looking mole checked out when I have enough $$ to see a dermatologist, or I could take steps RIGHT NOW, TODAY to get it checked and removed if it's cancerous.

"Waiting around" is fine-- for buses, trains, taxicabs, the sky to clear up, hell to freeze over, etc.

It isn't fine when we're talking about ensuring the health of the people in this country.

The time is NOW. The public wants a TRUE Universal single-payer plan, not yet another band-aid over the seething wound that is healthcare in this country.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

38. Dean:"never been in doubt about.. the necessity..."

Standing with the President: "never been in doubt about the evil of Saddam Hussein or the necessity of removing his weapons of mass destruction." http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000395.html


Mental health: Dean's all-or-nothing approach made him want to unrealistically close Vermont's state mental hospital altogether. Despite the good that was achieved in moving most patients to community-based treatment, the patients that didn't fit Dean's model of what a mental patient should be like, have been sadly neglected. Poor planning, and inflexibility led to a missed opportunity to give these patients the proper care.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2003/10/20/mental_breakdown/

Environment: where do I begin... Dean's overall record has been abysmal... from promoting a coal-fired power plant, to promoting factory farms over family farms, to "an inappropriate coziness with the utilities", which led to, among other things, a push for deregulation and turning a blind eye to nuclear safety, to the policies that led one environmentalist to say EP under Governor Dean means Expedite Permits, not Environmental Protection, Dean's environmental record is mixed at best. To his credit, with the help of his buddies in the NRA, Dean was able to get a lot of land protected.

[mzmolly]

42. Dean...."THE PRESIDENT HAS NOT MADE THE CASE FOR WAR"

Regarding Deans war statement you forgot to post what he said immediately following what you noted above.

"../Americans who opposed our going to war with Iraq, who wanted the United Nations to remove those weapons without war, need not apologize for giving voice to their conscience, last year, this year or next year. In a country devoted to the freedom of debate and dissent, it is every citizen’s patriotic duty to speak out, even as we wish our troops well and pray for their safe return."

Regarding Mental Health.

NAMI 'applauds' Dean on Mental Health.

"NAMI, the Nation's Voice on Mental Illness, has praised the mental health reform agenda being announced today in New Hampshire by presidential candidate Howard Dean. NAMI National Executive Director Richard C. Birkel, Ph.D. issued the following statement:"

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030912/dcf006_1.html

Regarding the environment.

http://deandefense.org/archives/000596.html

"n's Vermont "has one of the most progressive environmental programmes in America" according to the London Times.former Vermont radio and television talk show host Jeff Kaufman points out, "During his decade in office, Governor Dean helped protect more land from development than all previous governors combined; ... he administered a 'best practices' agriculture plan that preserves land and water quality; he helped form the nation's first statewide energy efficiency utility (preventing more than one million tons of greenhouse gas emissions since 2000); and he championed a commuter rail system to lower traffic congestion and pollution while diminishing urban sprawl (in its last report on sprawl, the Sierra Club ranked Vermont as the second best state in America for land use planning)." Vermont also followed California's lead in establishing regulations on greenhouse gas emissions that go beyond standards set in the Kyoto Protocol. According to the New York Times, Dean "is calling for the auto industry to build cars that get 40 miles per gallon by 2015 and for 20 percent of the nation's electricity to come from renewable sources by 2020. ... s president he would close the loophole that exempts sport utility vehicles from gas-mileage standards, ... make the Environmental Protection Agency cabinet level and work to re-establish the Clinton administration rules limiting roads in national forests." Even when Dean was judged less favorably on environmental issues, the executive director of the Vermont Natural Resources Council Elizabeth Courtney recognizes that pressing economic circumstances impacted his decisions ("in the early 90s the rest of the country seemed to be pulling out of the recession and Vermont seemed to be languishing in it") and acknowledges Dean's general qualities as governor: "fresh candor and intelligence. You always know where Howard Dean stands. He is candid and honest in his communications with Vermonters, and he is appreciated for that. He's also very bright, and he has a clear sense of his direction." The San Francisco Chronicle reported that " Pope said that hough the Sierra Club had some disagreements with Dean's land-use policies, Dean did 'fabulous things in Vermont.'"

Off to life... :hi:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

54. None of that changes the facts of the matter. Dean's been all over the map

on the issue of Iraq, now he wants to paint himself as an anti-war candidate.

He has a lot of anti-war supporters, but he's no anti-war candidate.

Check out the giant divide between Dean and Kerry's positions:

Dean:Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/02/20/dean/index2.html

Kerry: "If we go it alone without reason, we risk inflaming an entire region and breeding a new generation of terrorists, a new cadre of anti-American zealots - and we will be less secure, not more secure, at the end of the day, even with Saddam Hussein disarmed. Let there be no doubt or confusion as to where I stand: I will support a multilateral effort to disarm Iraq by force, if we have exhausted all other options. But I cannot - and will not - support a unilateral, US war against Iraq unless the threat is imminent and no multilateral effort is possible."
http://www.johnkerry.com/news/speeches/spc_2002_1009.html



Dean:"In Iraq, I would be prepared to go ahead without further Security Council backing if it were clear the threat posed to us by Saddam Hussein was imminent, and could neither be contained nor deterred."
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html

Kerry:"we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war."
http://www.johnkerry.com/news/speeches/spc_2003_0123.html

Dean:"never been in doubt about the evil of Saddam Hussein or the necessity of removing his weapons of mass destruction."
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000395.html

And once the invasion started?

Dean: "It's hard to criticize the president when you've got troops in the field" Dean to ease up on Bush

Kerry: ""This is a democracy, we could be at war a year from now. Would we put the election on hold?" Kerry Stands By Bush Criticism

It's not really surprising that Dean was afraid to speak out against Bush during the invasion. After all, while Kerry was learning about speaking out during wartime, Dean was learning about skiing bumps.

[killbotfactory]

63. Still on the anti-war kick, huh?

How many Dean supporters have to explain to you that we like him because he was against the IRAQ war, and not agaisnt all war?

"No matter how strongly I oppose the President's policy, I will continue to support American troops who are now in harms way," said Dean

March 20, 2003

While Dean said he was staunchly opposed to the war and planned to continue criticizing it, he also said the United States should keep fighting, putting him at odds with other antiwar activists who have been calling for an immediate cease-fire.

''We're in. We don't have any choice now. But this is the wrong choice,'' Dean said. ''There will be some who think we should get out immediately, but I don't think that's an easy position to take.''

March 23, 2003

On day one of a Dean Presidency, I will reverse this attitude. I will tear up the Bush Doctrine. And I will steer us back into the company of the community of nations where we will exercise moral leadership once again.

April 17th, 2003

[Feanorcurufinwe]

72. So what?

Dean has indeed been all over the map on the IRAQ WAR. lol


Now go ahead and refute some other point I'm not making... :eyes:

[mzmolly]

74. Some people have a hard time understanding a 'complex' position.

Thankfully, most people are aware that Dean has been consistant the Iraq issue.

[killbotfactory]

78. No, he really hasn't.

Kerry has been though. lol.

now go ahead and bring up some irrellevent Dean quote again.... :eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

79. No, really, he has.

Your argument was so potent I thought I'd use it myself. :eyes:

[mzmolly]

77. Gosh Feinforcurvie, you forgot to mention that your most damning

evidence is a paraphrased quote by Salon.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

81. 'damning'? in what way?

Are you saying it is inaccurate? Did the Dean campaign say it was inaccurate? It's basically the same as the Biden-Lugar resolution, which Dean supported.

[mzmolly]

83. I'm saying it's inaccurate.

And...It's not the same thing as the Biden Lugar resolution. I am certain you know that but you don't care if you misrepresent Dean's positions or not. :shrug:

Also, I don't know if the Dean campaign has responded to every piece of junk journalism that comes out against him, I imagine they have bigger fish to fry. Does the Kerry campaign formally come out against incorrect journalistic trash?

I will send this trash article to the campaign however, they may be interested as it's being touted as fact. I'll let you know what I find out.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure you know what Dean's stand on Iraq was, because I've seen it pointed out to you on several occasions. You seem like an intelligent sort, so I can't imagine that it would be over your head?

[Mairead]

80. "the state has one of the lowest uninsured rates in the country."

Could that possibly be because it is a state with the population of a city, and almost all of them White, too?

[mzmolly]

25. You forgot the part where the report indicated Vermont has one of the

lowest uninsured rates in the country. Under Governor Dean's leadership, it remained so.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

29. Since it didn't change under Dean, to whom should we give the credit

for the low rate? Was there a time when Vermont didn't have one of the lowest uninsured rates in the country? It's clear that if Vermont had one of the lowest uninsured rates in the country before Dean became governor, and it was virtually unchanged when he left, he doesn't deserve any credit.

Should we give the Republican governor of my state, Montana, credit for the fact that we have a beautiful landscape?

Maybe we should give George Bush the credit for the Endangered Species Act, or the Emancipation Proclamation....

[mzmolly]

32. If it didn't 'change' the OP is irrelevant. However, it did change

for the children of Vermont.

"Howard Dean served as governor of Vermont for eleven and a half years, from August 1991 to January 2003. Under Dean's leadership, virtually every child under 18 in Vermont gained access to health care as a result of the expanded Medicaid program (Dr. Dynasaur), and the child abuse rate was cut in half, in part because of the Success by Six program."

[killbotfactory]

34. In the words of Clinton

"We got $24 billion for children's health; that's good. What's step two? The governors have to design a program that works. And I promise you every governor with any sense in this country without regard to party is going to wonder what Howard Dean is going to do with the money because they know that Vermont has done the best job of expanding health care coverage for children. So it matters who the governor is."

Bill Clinton, 1997

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. In other words, without that money from the Feds

the uninsured rate probably would have gone up.

If the overall rate stayed virtually unchanged, yet a bunch of children got coverage thanks to the money from the federal government, without that money, those children would not have been added, and the rate of uninsured would have gone up.

[mzmolly]

39. In Bill Clintons words....

"The governors have to design a program that works. And I promise you every governor with any sense in this country without regard to party is going to wonder what Howard Dean is going to do with the money because they know that Vermont has done the best job of expanding health care coverage for children. So it matters who the governor is."

In other words, all the states got federal $$ but Dean designed the 'best' program and did the 'best' job of expanding health care to children.

[redqueen]

40. Using Clinton to support Dean...

Doesn't do it for me... Clinton is no liberal. (Welfare Reform Act, Telecom Act, etc.)

Of course centrists will support other centrists... they both want you to follow them off the same cliff * is headed for, only slower.

[mzmolly]

43. Well it does if for me.

:hi:

[dpbrown]

44. But failed to cover as many as universal single-payer would

Your heart seems to be in the right place, but I don't think your rationale works.

Dean never got more than just under 92% of the people in Vermont covered. He achieved this with an infusion of federal money (our tax money) that then was channeled into the pockets of the private insurers - a pattern that is inherently subject to attack by Republicans as being "tax and spend."

Universal single-payer attacks the problem - multiple ponzi schemes headed by different multi-millionaire health insurance executives motivated by profit to keep as many people who might use insurance from being able to buy it.

Univeral single payer puts everyone in one pool, thereby lowering the cost for any single insured into that network. Universal single-payer reduces administrative costs (otherwise why would big multinationals cite that as a reason for mergers?).

Also, Wellstone's actual plan for health care was more like a state-by-state plan encouraging a move to single-payer, but at the state level. At best, his plan would have resulted in 50 single-payer plans. That's neither the same as the plan Dean is proposing (essential letting the system remain unchanged, but pouring more money into it), nor the one Kucinich supports, which would reduce costs and overhead by putting all Americans in one pool of insureds - a single single-payer plan.

Essentially, Dean kept Vermont from backsliding substantially (although all the peaks in the uncovered occurred under Dean in the example cited), by using the federal money he got to make sure that one class (children) got coverage - I hope he didn't think even then that he would be able to turn that into a rallying cry - because overall, one in ten of Vermonters went without coverage in Dean's Vermont.

And if Dean's plan is to do to the nation what he did to Vermont with health care, then I still think he's opening himself up to a whole case of whoopass from Republicans who will accuse him (justifiably) of promoting a "tax and spend" program for bloating health care costs - because the private companies now running the ponzi schemes that are private insurance in America will still be just as motivated to exclude as many people as they can to pump up profits.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[mzmolly]

46. Dean has said he would sign a single payer plan...

And, while I personally would love to see a SP plan, there are many stigmas associated with such a plan that would be difficult to overcome politically.

I fear trying to push the "single payer or bust" plan means we'll get no where (again).

http://www.amsa.org/hp/theories.cfm

Disadvantages:

There are many political drawbacks.

Convincing lawmakers and their constituents that government should take over the financing of health care through taxation will not be easy. Also, health care could be threatened by changes in the political climate that lead to budgetary adjustments.

arge number of private sector jobs would be lost as insurance companies would no longer be of consequence.ever, many of the unemployed would be highly educated and could easily find work in another field or could be re-trained to fit the changing needs of the health care system.

If physicians are paid based on a negotiated fee-for-service plan (as in Canada), there will be little incentive for health care providers to try and control costs.

sing people's negative, and often inaccurate, perceptions of a single-payer health care system may prove to be difficult. Long lines, inefficient bureaucracy, limited choice, and sub-standard health care are just a few of the erroneous beliefs that would need to be changed.

[dpbrown]

51. The potential drawbacks don't mean it's not a better plan

Right now, only one plan has the capacity to cover all Americans, while insulating the proponent from being smeared by Republicans as being a "tax and spend" Democrat for advocating for a program that is "status quo" other than throwing more tax dollars at a program that's already proved that it's broken.

Only one candidate, along with more than 8000 doctors, advocates for that plan.

That's the candidate I can support.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[mzmolly]

60. "Dr. Dean" attempted to pass a single payer plan in Vermont,

when it failed (as many other such plans have) he decided he would approach the matter from a different perspective.

[dpbrown]

69. And he was able to maintain the status quo - good for him

While one group (children) got more coverage, the overall percentage of people remaining uninsured remained relatively constant (especially given the "unreliability" of the numbers).

Times are different now. People are hurting more from ballooning insurance costs. Doctors across the nation are embracing universal single-payer. It's cheaper or no more expensive than what we have now. It reduces administrative overhead. It's what we deserve. It's time for universal single-payer.

The candidate who carries that vision forward is the one that will have my support and my vote.

USP! USP! USP!!!!

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[mzmolly]

71. The entire thread is based on numbers that are debatable at best...

Again, the report states that the 'numbers' are questionable because there are segments of the population who are incorrectly labeled.

I can't spend too much more time on a case that doesn't exist.

You said ~ "The candidate who carries that vision forward is the one that will have my support and my vote."

Well you have 2 choices then, Dennis Kucinich or Carol M Braun. Am I missing anyone?

Eventually you'll have to decide to go third party or vote for the less then perfect Democratic Nominee.

Edited to add how Howard Dean feels about the situation:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2083390

"My health insurance plan … is built on the existing system. It's not that the existing system is so great; it's just that I'm tired of trying to get the reforms through Congress and then have the Democrats fight among each other about how to do it, and then the Republican special interests come in and kill the whole thing. So what I want to do is just build on the existing system, get everybody insured first, and then we can have a big fight as to how to change the system."

Also note that the number of people enrolled a plan does not mean that they don't have access to coverage. Many may have chosen to opt out.

"Well, our plan essentially covers everybody, and it's modeled after what we did in Vermont where 99 percent of our kids under 18 are eligible for health insurance. It's simply builds on the programs in place, covers every child under 25, covers every working person whose family makes $33,000 a year in a family of four, and then lets everybody else buy into a private plan, the same plan that your congressman has, for seven and a half percent of their adjusted gross income. It covers everybody. Everybody is automatically signed up; they can opt out if they want to..."

[dpbrown]

86. Full Circle - Dean didn't get above 92% of Vermonters covered

So his feel-good talk about getting "everybody insured" like "what we did in Vermont" is just that - talk.

Dean didn't get much about 90% coverage of people in Vermont, and it took federal money to do it.

Dean is completely open on this issue to being smeared by Republicans as being a "tax and spend" Democrat.

Dean's plan is the status quo with more money thrown at it - I can't imagine a plan that should repell both progressives and conservatives more than that - progressives ought to reject it because it doesn't do the job (didn't do it in Vermont and won't work in America - where's the "federal" money going to come from?), and it will surely appall conservatives because it is by its very nature the epitome of what they consider "big government" wasting "tax dollars" on "failed systems."

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Feanorcurufinwe]

47. Yep

Dean did a good job of expanding coverage to children. But if the overall rate of uninsured stayed virtually the same, that means for every child who gained coverage, an adult lost coverage.

[mzmolly]

50. Somebody call Bill Clinton...

Tell him he's wrong about the great things Dean did for Vermont.

[dpbrown]

53. Clinton said it was a good thing to cover children with fed $

He did not necessarily imply that Dean did "other" great things for Vermont, or that keeping the other 1 out of every 10 in Vermont uninsured was a "great thing."

[mzmolly]

56. He did in a recent speech..

The Harkin Steak Fry aired on cspan.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

58. What exactly did he say?

[mzmolly]

61. Does it matter?

Doesn't sound like it does...

[dpbrown]

67. Of course it matters

Because if Clinton was "endorsing" Dean that would mean something different than if he was just using "puffery" to say something nice about somebody.

Frankly, I wouldn't expect Bill Clinton to denigrate any of the candidates, so I would expect him to be very specific if he was actually going to come out and tout some guys agenda.

The other quotes you showed were from the 1990s, no?

If you have a more recent quote, I'd like to read about it.

[mzmolly]

73. I'm sure you'll deem it "puffery"...

Peruse the Harkin Steak Fry threads to see what he said. The exact quote fails me.

He complimented Deans record in Vermont on Health Care. It's a recent quote, but I doubt it will have an impact on your feelings about Dean.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

82. So you say Clinton said something, and when challenged on it

it turns out you don't know what he said.

[mzmolly]

84. I know what he said. But I don't have a link...

Thus I have to paraphrase. I assume that's alright with you given the history of your 'case against Dean?'

I'm unable to find a transcript. And, I'm not gonna waste too much time searching because you won't give two hoots and a holler anyhow.

What he said was, "no one did greater things for Health Care then Governor Dean."

[dsc]

85. He or she

is referring to the Harkin dinner where Clinton praised Dean's record. It has been repeatedly reported on in this forum.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

57. Why avoid the point?

If the overall rate of uninsured stayed virtually the same, that means for every child who gained coverage, an adult lost coverage.

Clinton's opinion of Dean (did I miss the endorsement announcement?) what ever it may be today, won't make this fact go away.

[mzmolly]

59. What you call fact, the report you site as such calls debatable.

"Some Health Care analyists believe that the CPS number underestimates the number of people on Medicade and thus overestimates the number of uninsured."

[mzmolly]

75. Wanted to add.

The numbers are questionable bc many people opted out of the plan.

[genius]

52. The general public will know this after the primaries

Bush will convince everyone that Dean is the enemy of health care and a liar and make it stick.

[mzmolly]

55. Did you see where the report indicated that the numbers are unreliable.

"Some Health Care analyists believe that the CPS number underestimates the number of people on Medicade and thus overestimates the number of uninsured."