Kerry will never win NH now that he's talking about gun control

[KaraokeKarlton]

One of Kerry's supporters mentioned that Kerry has started talking about gun control. That's going to kill his campaign in NH. The only issue more important to NH than gun rights is money. I predict that Kerry will have to drop out after NH because he won't even make the top 3.

[mikehiggins]

1. Yeah, what was that?

I was really surprised to hear Kerry on the topic of the Brady Bill, etc. It wasn't like anyone asked him, or anything like that, he just came out with it.

Is that supposed to contrast him with Dean's 100% rating from the NRA?

How will that help in New Hampshire? Has Kerry decided to concede NH and just aim at the next round? This is really weird.

[Pez]

118. this doesn't have to be taken the way it has been traditionally

i think kerry is outlining his stance on gun safety and bringing this up (as did kucinich) in order to shape the dialogue himself. there is nothing in his proposal that threatens law abiding citizens from their right to responsible gun ownership. the only people freaking out about this and making the traditional argument that liberals aren't trusted on the gun issue hate kerry anyway.

i think kerry could take the gun issue from the grasps of the pukes with his stance, showing that democrats can propose legislation that while allowing gun owners to keep their weapons, their fellow citizens in urban areas can be protected. it makes the pukes look like they just lick up to special interests and don't represent the voice of the people in general, which i think we all agree is true.

anyway, if we go by traditional arguments whoever wins NH will lose eventually. so dean can have it.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maxanne]

5. gee Feanorcurufinwe

I sure do hope no one is holding you hostage and making you stick around and read Karlton's posts. :eyes:

Karlton - you are absolutely correct. The only things that matter to Joe Average in NH are guns and taxes. Apparently Kerry didn't realize that being from Massachusetts was going to be a serious handicap, never mind advocating gun control. Unless he's advocating gun control for Mass. residents visiting NH? All those drunken hunters coming up to shoot our house pets should be stopped. ;-)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

8. This 'prediction' is so ridiculous I thought I'd have some fun with it.

I'd even make it a bet, If KK is willling.

If Kerry drops out when KK predicts, I'll never visit DU again (I'm sure that would make someone out there happy). If he doesn't, KK can do it.

lol

Just what is Kerry's supposedly rabid anti-gun stance?

John Kerry is a gun owner and hunter, and he believes that law-abiding American adults have the right to own guns. But like all of our rights, gun rights come with responsibilities, and those rights allow for reasonable restrictions to keep guns out of the wrong hands. John Kerry strongly supports all of the federal gun laws on the books, and he would take steps to ensure that they are vigorously enforced, cracking down hard on the gun runners, corrupt dealers, straw buyers, and thieves that are putting guns into the hands of criminals in the first place. He will also close the gun show loophole, which is allowing criminals to get access to guns at gun shows without background checks, fix the background check system, which is in a serious state of disrepair, and require that all handguns be sold with a child safety lock.
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/crime.html

[KaraokeKarlton]

25. Kerry supporters keep criticizing Dean on guns

and claim that Kerry is so much more liberal on the issue. Clearly you can't have it both ways. Kerry either favors more gun control, or he doesn't. If he favors it, he's dead in NH. If he doesn't, then a good many of his supporters are hypocrites for taking issue with Dean's position. Either way, your team loses.

[MrPeepers]

79. It's good to know

that Dean's campaign riding the fence puts him in a safe position here. Kerry isn't having it both ways, he's having it the right way - safety restrictions. If it kills him in NH, so be it. I'd rather have a guy who stands up for what he believes in, and so would the American People.

Peepers

[KaraokeKarlton]

140. Dean isn't riding the fence

and what makes you think he's not standing up for what he believes in? He has lived in a rural state for many years now and he understands how important guns are to the people in rural areas. He knows people in cities have different concerns and needs and is able to respect BOTH groups of people.

[MrPeepers]

158. He may well be standing up for what he believes in.

But you missed my point. The point was, why do you criticize Kerry for basing his Iraq opinion on keeping his poll numbers up, while you criticize him here when his gun control opinion will hurt his NH numbers? That just dosn't equate.

Peepers

[KaraokeKarlton]

180. I'm not criticizing Kerry for believing in gun control

I'm saying it's going to kill him in NH. I am GLAD Kerry is talking about gun control because he will sink in NH which will prevent him from getting many donations or additional support after that primary. That's good for my candidate.

In case you hadn't noticed, the vast majority of my posts that are insulting to Kerry are in response to those Kerry Kids here who choose to be insulting to my chosen candidate. I really dislike Kerry for his lying about Dean and some of his proposals. I couldn't care less about his votes. I don't like him for other reasons.

[coralrf]

169. KaraokeKarlton..you ever been shot?

I have and I think guns fucking suck.

Have you ever shot someone to death? I have and I think guns fucking suck.

Kerry has been there. He is not some soldier of fortune reading fat slob with a little dick and no education.

I was amazed at the professional Rednecks that abound in New England, having thought that lot were my home boys in the South. If they want guns, let them have them. They have all that spare money from avoiding dentists, shampoo and laundry soap. Gotta spend it somewhere!

I have almost never seen a gun lover that was at all what I would call a man. Most, the vast majority, avoided the military, avoided an education, treat woman like shit, eat too much pork, watch to many war movies, spend too much money on Taiwan shit in "Army" surplus stores, jack their pick up trucks too high and fail to wash their "made in China" camouflage zoot suits enough. In short, a sorry lot of short dicked losers.

[KaraokeKarlton]

173. Tell that to my Democratic Texan uncle who lived through Korea AND

Vietnam. He would pound the slobbering snots out of you for talking about him and his brother, my father, that way. I'll have you know that my family used guns to help feed their kids by hunting. What a pathetic and disgusting display you are exhibiting. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Oh, and someone I loved very much was shot to death. Guess what, the gun that killed that person was one of those banned assault rifles. The bullet that killed that person was also illegal armor piercing ammo. Gun control laws sure the fuck didn't prevent that death, now did they?

[KaraokeKarlton]

24. lol, ain't that the truth!

You crack me up! Ironically, the federal income tax issue isn't hurting Dean in the way I was concerned it might with folks in NH. I think that's because they care more about the state taxes, and without any state income tax the federal income tax doesn't seem to bother NH-ites as much. But boy oh boy aren't home owners mad as hell over the drastic rise in property taxes. One of the Grafton County school systems is in serious trouble with the No Child Left Behind debacle. They only have $1 in their budget to pay for testing. They are going to end up losing their federal funding as a result. Bush's ignorance is putting NH at risk of having to add new state taxes in order to fund education. Kids will suffer because there will be a HUGE fight over it. NH could lose public kindergarden again. NH is NOT Bush country, and Kerry has blown his chances there now. NH knows Dean and a lot of NH residents cross the border to come to Vermont all the time. Both states are like an extension of the other. The people are very much the same except when in comes to state taxes. :D I think Dean owns NH. Just at my work people really, really like him (I work in NH) and I see Dean bumper stickers everywhere.

[KaraokeKarlton]

21. My prediction isn't wrong

NH is seriously BIG on gun rights. I spend almost as much time in NH as I do in Vermont, so I have a very clear understanding of both states and the people there. Kerry's campaign is horrible! What amateurs! No one in their right mind who NEEDS NH would EVER offer up talk in favor of gun control. Either they are dumber than pounded thumbs or there is a mole in their ranks. I'm NOT kidding.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

50. So will you take my bet?

or back down?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KaraokeKarlton]

53. I will do neither

Kerry sucks and will never win NH. I don't need to make silly bets to know that, as I'm not insecure in my knowledge of NH.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

116. I'm not surprised.

Your 'prediction' that Kerry won't be in the top 3 is so ridiculous, I knew you'd be unwilling to bet on it.

[blm]

3. Good thing you don't have much experience with elections.

Since this is the first time you worked for a campaign, what makes you so certain? Gore didn't lose because of gun control. If anything the peace and the good economy helped let people's mind wander to other issues. That won't be the case in 2004.

Besides, what Democratic candidate wants to take away anyone's legally owned guns?

[LuminousX]

4. Agreed

'Gun Control' feels like a big issue, but it really isn't. Gore's 'misstep' was in talking about a registration system. Not really a big deal but was able to be blown up against him.

Kerry is a hunter, he should be able to speak the hunter's language. This won't harm him one iota.

[KaraokeKarlton]

27. You're wrong

In NH, gun rights are even bigger than abortion rights. Guns are bigger than EVERYTHING except for money. It's funny that so many people call NH so "unpredictable" during elections. If you live there or spend enough time there you realize just how predictable NH actually is. Kerry won't win NH.

[Pez]

104. unless they are all criminals they won't be "threatened" by kerry's stance

i think you don't give our fellow citizens in NH enough credit-- they are intelligent enough to read his policy and think through it. this won't be a problem.

[maxanne]

6. blm

I respectfully disagree. Gore's stance on gun control hurt him hugely here. There were plenty of rednecks who didn't know squat about the election - but they did know Al Gore wanted to take their guns away, and you couldn't convince them otherwise.

[LuminousX]

9. Registration hurt Gore

Gore was talking about registering gun owners or some such thing that did freak out a lot of the rural types. It didn't hurt him in New Hampsire, though.

[maxanne]

16. Gore lost NH

by a very narrow margin. His gun policy DID hurt him here.

Based on the comment about "rural types" I'm guessing you aren't from here. Fully half the state are "rural types."

[LuminousX]

76. I'm from Montana, but I stand corrected on Gore in NH

I think I qualify as a 'rural type'.

[blm]

10. Only because there was peace and a healthy economy.

That made the gun issue a luxury in 2000 that won't be repeated in 2004. Besides, which Dem candidate is going to take away legally owned guns?

[KaraokeKarlton]

29. Are you kidding? Guns are bigger than ever after 9/11!

You sure don't understand gun owners.

[blm]

36. What Dem is going to take away their legal guns? Name 'em.

.

[stickdog]

63. Yeah, that's way gun owners think.

:eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

64. Are you a gun owner?

[dsc]

182. I am not one

but I know several. And I can honestly point to several who were utterly, totally, and unalterably convinced that Gore was intending to take their guns. Many didn't vote at all but would have voted for Gore but for that issue. A few voted for Bush on that issue alone. I realize that it is a convienient fantasy that gun owners are all these neandrathal rednecks who wouldn't vote for a Democrat if doing so would get them out of a flaming voting booth. But in some cases that just isn't true. And I think we indulge this fantasy at our peril.

[paulk]

18. Bush won New Hampshire 48-47

If anybody hurt Gore, it was the 4% who voted for Nader, and I doubt they were voting on the gun registration issue.

Does the Democratic party need to appeal to gun - loving rednecks?

[stickdog]

65. Yes. (NT)

[dsc]

14. He would be in the WH but for that issue

He very narrowly lost NH, WV and TN all states with large populations of people who like guns alot. He also lost votes in my area but he lost Ohio by enough I don't think it mattered.

[KaraokeKarlton]

26. This has nothing to do with elections experience

It's about knowing NH and the people that live there. NH is VERY conservative about money and guns. I am in the state EVERY day and have been for about a decade. You don't need to know anything about politics to know that people in NH will NOT vote for gun control, period.

[blm]

38. Who plans to take their guns away?

Can you them?

[KaraokeKarlton]

41. Oh Christ, here we go again

It does NOT matter what Kerry's intentions are. Gun owners aren't going to trust him because they don't trust ANYONE who talks about gun control. All it takes is a couple of loud, obnoxious democrats crying for the banning of guns to give the whole damn party the reputation of wanting to take guns away. Most Republicans support abortion but you sure as hell don't trust them when they start talking about regulating it, do you?

[JohnKleeb]

43. Tell me does Kerry plan to ban any weapons?

Shouldnt these gun owners have more issues than just guns? Like I realize its important but sheesh isnt that more to life than guns.

[KaraokeKarlton]

45. John, please don't start playing blm's game

You're better than that.

The whole point is that it doesn't matter what you think or what blm thinks, what I think or what anyone here thinks. It's all irrelevent to the questions at hand. What does those gun owners think? That's what the issue is. The second ANY Democratic candidate trying to do well in NH mentions gun control in a way that implies there might be even a remote chance they will add more and they lose A LOT of voters, enough to prevent them from being able to win in NH. That's the ONLY point here. People can argue until they're blue in the face that Democrats don't want to take guns away and IT WON'T MATTER because that is what a lot of gun owners think.

[blm]

47. With that logic, Republicans are best on national security.

Let's give in on ALL the Republican memes. Why stop with the fairy tale that Dems want to take their guns away?

Republicans are better on family value issues.

Dems want to kill babies.

Liberals are weepy.

[KaraokeKarlton]

52. You're going on ignore

You are seriously a waste of my time and bandwidth.

Goodbye!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

58. Please, me too

[blm]

70. Because you got caught with your GOP memes.

And you can't respond to logic.

[coralrf]

171. Can you put me on Iggy too...

its such a manly thing to do. It makes ..my ...my ...my gun hard.....!!!!

[KaraokeKarlton]

174. I'm a woman

So I am not trying to appear "manly". :eyes:

[Egnever]

61. Fairy tale?

"Why stop with the fairy tale that Dems want to take their guns away?"

you should have a talk with Dr.funk and discus your brady bill crowd.

Its no fantasy. Hell there are people in this thread stating that gun cuntrol is a core democratic value. I supose it is/has been but its certainly not one this dem agrees with. And would make me run screaming from any candidate advocating it.

Kerry seemed to come out in favor of gun control last night out of the blue. Forget that what he said he supports is pretty damn close to what dean suports. There was no reason to bring it up last night no one had mentioned it before that and the wierd insertion of it into the debate made it come off as wanting to take away peoples guns.

It was a stupid move on kerrys part IMHO and a completely unescessary one.

[blm]

72. Gun control doesn't mean take legal guns away.

If you can prove differently do so.

[Egnever]

99. Any gun can be made illegal with the right legislation

Theres a hell of a lot of people out there that dont want that legislation anywhere close to the white house.

You are trying to play a game like bush. playing with the technicality of the words. When its the general theme of them that is the killer not the specifics.

kerry came out saying he suports gun control. To me that says he wants to take away guns.

You like that idea aparently so you are ok with it. Theres a hell of a lot of out here that dont. It will hurt kerry in rural states. Bank on it.

[blm]

102. YOU sound like BushInc and the NRA, not me.

You said:

"kerry came out saying he suports gun control. To me that says he wants to take away guns."

You twist support for responsible gun control into a "take your guns away" meme. Who does that sound like?

[Egnever]

124. Works for me

I am on the NRAs side of this issue.

[blm]

129. So you believe and PROMOTE the GOP meme?

Disgusting.

[Egnever]

131. you do spin like a top

Ill give you that.

I believe and support my right to bear arms and I wont stand for any more erosions of it.

[blm]

137. So you repeat the GOP lies.

Take heart, Egnever. NONE of the Democratic candidates are taking your guns away. Rest easy and drop the support of the GOP lie.

[Egnever]

139. Its not me repeating it its kerry

Hes the one making it an issue not me.

I will take Deans stance on it you can have kerry's. He was a fool to bring it up out of the blue. I hopoe he keeps trying to point out his differences on dean on this one.

You can call it lies all you want the fact is he wants more legislation of guns I dont.

You can pretend he doesnt all you want. Ill stick with the guy that wants to leave it up to the states.

[blm]

141. HAHAH....you have to PRETEND he's taking away your guns.

to make your point. Kerry NEVER said he he'll take your guns away but you need to PRETEND he does to make an argument to convince WHO....yourself! HAHAHAHAHAHA.........

[Egnever]

152. and you have to pretend hes not for more gun legislation

To try to convince yourself that hes not making an incredible blunder here.

Like i said before you stick with kerry touting his tough stand on guns and need to fight the NRA. I will stick with howard and his A rating from the NRA and his comitment to leave it to the states.

I prefer howards stance. I may not agree with the NRA on all thier stances. But an F rating is pretty clear that the ones i do agree with arent going to fly with kerry. It never bothered me before about kerry but his choice to come out of the blue the other night in suport of gun control sent a prety clear signal to me when added to his F.

Clearly we dissagree on the issue of gun control you have your guy I have mine. You can try to cover for kerry all you want I'll take the guy with the A

[blm]

154. I said no such thing.

I never offered my view. I just noted that YOUR view was the repetition of the Republican party meme they have thrown at every Dem candidate, Clinton, Gore and now Kerry. That's YOUR standard of truth.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

156. It's obvious.

No matter how many times you go back and forth on it, Egnever is never going to do anything but repeat the NRA position - ANY GUN LAW IS "TAKING AWAY YOUR GUNS"

:eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

108. Are there really only two positions? The NRA's and Sarah Brady's?

The only time the Dean camp seems to recognize such a thing as a shade of grey is when they are trying to explain one of Dean's lies.

[JohnKleeb]

49. What?

I wanna know what guns Kerry plans to ban. We have to play to fear, now I know why I feel so isolated. I have my own agenda and I happen to agree with blm on guns.

[KaraokeKarlton]

54. No, you don't "have" to play to fear

But if you are aware of a fear and you disregard those feelings of fear and look at them like they don't matter, you are going to lose for taking that route. All voters' are important and matter, and if some get the impression that you don't connect with or understand them, you won't get their vote. If you don't connect with or understand enough voters, you'll never win an election. This isn't about what things should be like, it's about the reality of the situation.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

56. No.

Unless you mean renewing the assault weapons ban. I think Dean has come out in favor of that. (Maybe the state's rights argument was trumped by the polling data). The only new federal laws Kerry is proposing are closing the gun show loophole and requiring child safety locks with handgun sales.

Increased Gun Safety: John Kerry is a gun owner and hunter, and he believes that law-abiding American adults have the right to own guns. But like all of our rights, gun rights come with responsibilities, and those rights allow for reasonable restrictions to keep guns out of the wrong hands. John Kerry strongly supports all of the federal gun laws on the books, and he would take steps to ensure that they are vigorously enforced, cracking down hard on the gun runners, corrupt dealers, straw buyers, and thieves that are putting guns into the hands of criminals in the first place. He will also close the gun show loophole, which is allowing criminals to get access to guns at gun shows without background checks, fix the background check system, which is in a serious state of disrepair, and require that all handguns be sold with a child safety lock.
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/crime.html

I'll let you read Dean's ironically entitled webpage "Sensible Gun Laws" for yourself. But you should put Dean's state's rights argument in perspective -- it's an idea we've been fighting for a long time. It was the rallying cry of the segregationists. Maybe we could and should have more relaxed gun laws here in Montana than 19 hours drive away in Chicago. Maybe. But I wouldn't mind buying a trigger lock the next time I buy a pistol. I got one the last time and I don't even have any kids.

[beyurslf]

128. Most Republicans support abortion?

Maybe in the Northeast but not in the midwest. I can think of one Republican official in KS who is pro choice. (I am sure there are a few others.) But I can think of many Dems are anti choice here. I've said many times that a Republican in New England is a Democrat in KS. (I don't even know that a NE Dem has a name in KS--maybe socialist.)

[KaraokeKarlton]

130. I'm talking voters

In fact, the vast majority of Americans believe abortion needs to be legal. That doesn't mean that many people don't feel uncomfortable with the issue and wish they weren't so common. You can support legalized abortion while still not liking abortion. And yes, most Republicans do not want to ban abortions just like most Democrats don't want to ban guns. That doesn't change the fact that heated issues like these don't set the stage for a serious lack of trust of the opposing party. Just like the radical pro-lifers, the radical anti-gun people spook voters and cause these stereotypes that hurt politicians in elections.

[curse10]

143. Are you saying that gun owners are too stupid to differentiate issues?

Come on. Gun control isn't a dirty word and if gun owners are up in arms over it then they need to get over themselves and actually learn about the issues instead of having some lame knee jerk reaction. Or, is it just people in New Hampshire are too stupid to understand the issue? Or are all New Hampshire people one issue voters? I think it's funny how you speak for all of New Hampshire. I wish I had that sort of gumption.

[KaraokeKarlton]

146. They're two issue voters

State taxes and guns.

[curse10]

148. Glad to hear you think so highly of New Hampshire voters

:eyes:

[KaraokeKarlton]

176. It's true for the most part

maxanne lives in NH and she appears to believe the same thing. Listen, I work with NH residents and am related to some NH residents. I've gone into NH EVERY day for the last decade. I have spent a significant amount of time there and I do know the state well. Did you know that Democrats are the minority in the state? Independents are the majority, with Republicans slightly behind them. NH is a pretty conservative state overall...especially when it comes to money and guns. Up until just a few years ago there was no public kindergarden in the state because NH didn't want to fund it.

[curse10]

186. Ya know

just because I live in Massachusetts I don't dare make assumptions that I could read the mind of Massachusetts voters. You can look at polls, you can spout off stats (which, you haven't, btw, no links thus far in any of your posts), but it doesn't mean a thing. You cannot classify an entire state's population under one heading.

And, honestly, Karaoke, your blind hatred of Kerry is very transparent. It makes for irrational arguments and unfounded assumptions.

You go ahead and love your guns and keep your cute little sig line and throw your arms up in the air shouting "Kerry supports child labor!!" It won't change anyone's mind on this board.

[coralrf]

172. WOW..what an aware lot...

you claim your fellow statesmen to be. Looking at your local papers gives one the impression that you know not of what you speak of. You live in one of the most environmentally conscious states in the Union. You live in a state that considers the Bill of Rights a local document, an anti-Patriot Act heaven and a Religious freedom Mecca.

Guns and taxes...that is you.

[KaraokeKarlton]

179. I live in Vermont but work in NH

Guns are equally important to both Vermont and NH. NH hates state taxes and Vermont doesn't mind them as long as we get what we pay for, which means our politicians damn well better use our tax dollars for the right things or they get voted out. Vermont is bigger on the environment and NH is bigger on business. Other than that, the people are essentially the same.

[coralrf]

170. KaraokeKarlton..name one Democrat that:...

wants to "ban guns". Ban them as you just wrote. Ban them as the RNC has asked all good pugs to say. Ban them. Your words.

Now come on and name one Democrat that wants to BAN GUNS!!!.

Or shut the hell up with the RNC spin and get on with a real debate. None of us give a shit about the famously inflexible New England mind. Maybe Kerry will not win NH. Nor did Bush. It does not mean much now does it.

But what about BANNING GUNS?

[Vikingking66]

34. oh really?

Gore didn't carry West Virginia, which is a true blue union state, because of guns. He didn't carry his home state of Tennessee because
of guns. He didn't carry any of the Southern states
because of guns.

It doesn't matter that no Dem wants to take away legally owned
guns, as long as the Repubs can use the fear of that to bludgeon
us with.

[DemPopulist]

39. But Dean couldn't carry those states....

if he were giving people guns.

[blm]

40. Read the whole thing. They had the LUXURY in 2000

of voting based on demagogued issues like gun control. The peace and healthy economy meant other issues came forward. The demagogues came out.

NONE of the Democrats intend to take their guns away. NONE. The GOP won't be able to use that to distract from the economy and a fucked up foreign policy.

[Egnever]

44. and now they have the luxury of voting.....

For a dem they Know wont take thier guns away. kerry has to get through new hampshire to put the voters into the choice you make them face. Till then there are 9 candidates out there mostly on the same side of things except when it comes to this.

[blm]

46. Does Dean want to run on that - Kerry's gonna take your guns away?

HAHAH.....go ahead.

No Dem is going to take their guns away.

[KaraokeKarlton]

48. You really shouldn't laugh

If the newspaper in NH mentions what Kerry is saying you may as well stick a fork in him, he'll be done. NH is paying close attention too. For someone who fancies themself as being so politically astute you are entirely clueless about the population of NH. Seeing as it is such an important state, I have to question your actual knowledge on this stuff.

[Egnever]

62. Dean doesnt have to run on that

Kerry is running on that for him. Dean doesnt have to say jack about kerry, kerry spouted it himself.

[blm]

73. What legal guns will Kerry take away?

Or are you deliberately spreading the GOP meme that Dems and gun control means they will take your guns away?

[Romulus]

84. gee

just look at the laws in DC to see the end game for the ban-them-all crowd associated (often fairly) with Democrats:

1) handguns - banned by refusing to allow new registration
2) all other firearms - ALL semiautos banned, even the "not scary-looking" ones; all shotguns and rifles registered and must be kept disassembled, unloaded, and locked up at all times, not allowed for self-defense use.

Who passed those laws? The DEMOCRATIC DC city government, at the urging of HandgunControl, Inc, the original name used by the Brady Campaign Against Gun Violence.

Which localities tried for years to enact similar firearms possession in the suburban DC areas of Maryland and Virginia? Yep, the DEMOCRATICALLY controlled areas of both states, who were stopped only by cooler-headed Democrats, with repug assistance, from elsewhere in those same states, when they preempted such local nonsense.

And you wonder why people get nervous when the Brady Campaign and "Candidate (Party) X" are seen as one and the same? :eyes:

[blm]

88. But which candidate is saying legal guns will be taken away?

Or is that a GOP spread meme?

Just because the GOP is perceived as being strong on national security doesn't make it true, does it. Are we going to give in to that meme, too?

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

98. No, he isn't. You are SPINNING that he wants to, just like the GOP

and the NRA does.

I'm just asking a simple question that you cannot answer simply.

[Egnever]

101. Whats your simple question?

kerry wants to take away gun rights. Kerry is for fighting for gun safety laws. Fighting for gun safety laws means new legislation tasking away more gun owners rights. If he just wanted to leave what was in place there would be no fight.

Kerry wants to make gun laws more resrictive that meaqns taking gun rights away no matter how you try to avoid it.

I got no problem with you endorsing that idea by all means do so. The fact remains theres a lot of us out there that dont especially in rural comunities. He looses suport behind this in NH and other rural states.

I have no problem if thats the fight he wants to make but I think it was god damn foolish to bring up for no reason in a national debate.
Like it or not it is part of the republican meme that dems want to take your guns away kerry just made sure that meme sticks to him when it was completely unnessecary to do so. Stupid.

Hey if thats his thing though let him fight for it all he wants. Its a free country I doubt he will will get anywhere with it . But you never know.

Quit trying to hide and come out full blown in your support of new gun legislation. Why be dishonest and pretend you dont like it? Not kerry you.

Fight for it if thats what you believe in but dont try and tell me kerry isnt for creating new gun legislation to curb gun ownership. The man said he would fight for it himself. Be proud of your guy and his stance.

I am proud of mine! let the states control thier gun laws leave the ones allready in place in place and move on. Works for me Places like texas will never in our lifetimes vote gun ownership out. So ill move to texas and you can move to DC. Freedom I love it!

[blm]

105. He didn't say he'd take guns away did he?

YOU did. That's what the GOP meme is and YOU are promoting it.

You want us to roll over because of that Republican promoted meme, then why not roll over on ALL Republican promoted memes? I think it's high time we FIGHT all the Republican memes.

"Like it or not it is part of the republican meme..." - Egnever

[Egnever]

133. Sure sounded like it to me

like it or not it comes across that way to a lot of people.

Like i said i hope he keeps repeating it.

[blm]

149. ONLY sounds that way when filtered thru GOP talking points.

Said the same about Clinton. Said the same about Gore. Will say the same about Kerry.

[Egnever]

153. ypu and thats why he will loose

Kerry is no clinton, and it worked quite well on Gore.

Course liebermans abysmal performance in the debates against cheiney didnt help gore much either.

Its too bad we could have had a damn good president with a lump for a VP
Instead we got a lump for a president and a crafty fucker for vp.

Go kerry go make gun control an issue!

Where he can pretend hes protecting america.

[blm]

159. That guy you slam has done more to protect, inform and alert America

to the dangers of war and to expose the BFEE, and the money networks that fund terrorism than any presidential candidate in modern history.

Mock him like he's some smarmy, wimpy frat boy out of his league and you just expose your own ignorance of the last 30 years in this nation's history.

[Egnever]

162. Yea right up till he caved

and started suporting all the bullshit.

NCLB IWR PATRIOT.

anmd whats this suport for genocide crap?

Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts may come from a land that epitomizes freedom and human rights, but according to many, he is doing everything possible to deny them for one small group of people.

Human Rights advocates Vietnamese immigrants and veterans who fought the long, hard war in Vietnam all charge political gamesmanship at their expense. Kerry, who chairs the Senate Sub Committee on East Asian and Pacific Affairs has kept the Vietnam Human Rights Act bottled up and will not let it move on to the full Senate Foreign Relations Committee. This is the same human rights legislation that passed in the House of Representatives last September by a vote of 410 to 1.

Kerry, according to human rights advocate Greg Stock is an individual who refuses to be truthful about the bill and his involvement. "According to our sources in the Senate", he says, "Kerry is best described as a self centered, arrogant, elitist who will never budge". Additionally, Stock claims the Senator continues to tell the nation he is speaking for all veterans, when the people he is really speaking for are those with trade interests in both Vietnam and the United States.

http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/s/segel/02/segel081902.htm

WTF is that crap all about?

Sry Kerry is no knight in shining armor plenty of crap coming from kerry. Especially in the last three years.

[blm]

164. That's a ginned up smear.

Just like the Nixon gang started against him over 30 years ago, and have always managed to come up with new ways to smear him over the years.

Let Dean debate Kerry about his bad character to his face if you're so certain of these smears.

[Egnever]

166. Nice

so why dont you explain it to me? Is he holding up the legislation or isnt he?

Why?

it doesnt end there theres tons more. Kerry is a decent senator he lands on the right side of the votes most of the time. He is definately a democrat but his judgement over the last few years doesnt impress m,e one Iota.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

167. Kerry responds

“John McCain and I have asked the Senate to be careful in reading the fine print on this legislation because we fear it may hinder rather than advance the cause of human rights in Vietnam. We’re very concerned that denying aid to Vietnam would actually slow human-rights improvements while cutting off humanitarian relief already going to some of the neediest people on the planet. That doesn’t excuse what’s happening to too many innocent Vietnamese, not by a long-shot, but we certainly wouldn’t want Congress to create an even worse situation. In urging that we consider more productive ways of improving human rights in Vietnam, John McCain and I draw on our own experience fighting in Vietnam, then trying to build a productive relationship with that country—efforts which have resulted in cooperage in locating the remains of American soldiers missing in Vietnam and have helped encourage the slow emergence of a market-based economy in what has been a closed society.”
--Sen. John Kerry
http://www.crfvn.org/StatementJK.htm

I guess without reading the fine print myself I'll have to withhold judgement.

[blm]

178. He wants to believe Kerry's an inhumane tyrant.

Kerry's LIFETIME record proves otherwise.

[Egnever]

187. I would way rather

Trust kerry.

Then I would have a couple Irons in the fire and be comfortable with the results if either of thoseIrons got pulled. As it stands now I am comnfortable with only one.

Kerry doesnt even begin to aproach the comfortable factor.

Sharpton is closer

[blm]

188. You mean you REALLY believe Kerry will take your guns

and you are not just saying that to advance politically? WOW. That's pretty amazing that you admit you BELIEVE the GOP spin. Amazing.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

111. So instead of listening to Kerry to find out what his position is,

we should listen to you?

Increased Gun Safety: John Kerry is a gun owner and hunter, and he believes that law-abiding American adults have the right to own guns. But like all of our rights, gun rights come with responsibilities, and those rights allow for reasonable restrictions to keep guns out of the wrong hands. John Kerry strongly supports all of the federal gun laws on the books, and he would take steps to ensure that they are vigorously enforced, cracking down hard on the gun runners, corrupt dealers, straw buyers, and thieves that are putting guns into the hands of criminals in the first place. He will also close the gun show loophole, which is allowing criminals to get access to guns at gun shows without background checks, fix the background check system, which is in a serious state of disrepair, and require that all handguns be sold with a child safety lock.
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/crime.html

That's John Kerry's position on guns. Not the BS you make up.

[Upfront]

71. Wrong

Gore failed to carry several states because of his perceived anti- gun stance. Get real, or be prepared to throw another election away. Dean has got it right on gun control. He will win the Michigan primary and his stance on guns will be a big reason. Kerry is done.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

115. You present your opinion as if it were fact.

[tsipple]

7. I Was Wondering the Same...

...And said so right after the debate. Independents in New Hampshire, especially, aren't going to be thrilled.

Heck, Barbara Boxer just recently pushed for arming pilots. It's a different time. Crime is down, and most progressives have seen "Bowling for Columbine" and wonder whether more gun control really is the answer.

I was quite puzzled by Kerry's closing statement Sunday night.

[JI7]

11. dean should run ads on this

how about dean running ads on how kerry is a big supporter of gun control ? if this hurts kerry then would dean run ads on it ?

[tsipple]

13. Be Careful What You Wish For :-)

There are many, many states -- a lot of them in the South -- where Dean could certainly do that and get excellent results.

I must admit that I've turned on this issue. Very recently I was with John Kerry (and other classic Democrats), thinking that additional gun control would help reduce crime. But "Bowling for Columbine" helped persuade me to reconsider. I don't think I'm the only one by any means.

[Punkingal]

12. So what has Kerry said about guns...

that would cause him to lose New Hampshire?

[KaraokeKarlton]

30. He's sounding seriously in favor of gun control

That will NOT garner much support in NH or ANY rural state.

[Punkingal]

32. Yes, but what specifially....

did he say?

[KaraokeKarlton]

35. I've only seen second hand accounts

Apparently he brought it up in the debates last night. Unfortunately, I only got to see a little bit of the replay at midnight because FOX News thought I needed to see the same car bomb video played over and over again and reporters repeat themselves instead of see the rest of the debate. You should ask someone who saw it. In all honesty, it doesn't matter what specifically he said, because it was pro-gun control. That's all it takes to make gun owners uneasy about voting for him.

[Pez]

96. kerry stands up against special interests, not responsible gun policies.

here is his closing statement from the debate in detroit:

KERRY: Thank you.

There's a front-page story in today's Washington Post that says that Democrats are going to try to run away from the issue of gun safety.

I don't think that we can get elected nationally if we are not prepared to stand up against powerful special interests and make it clear that, whether it's the NRA or any other special interest, we're prepared to stand for our principles.

All across this country, we have too many people who die each year from guns. So let me make it plain: I am for the assault weapons ban. I'm for the Brady Bill. I'm for making sure we stand up for gun safety in this country. We cannot be a party that retreats in an effort to try to court votes and not save lives.

KERRY: We also have to stand up against all the special interests. They have changed the face of America. They're stealing our own democracy.

And I believe whether it's rolling back the high end of the Bush tax cut or getting big oil out of the White House or reversing the policy decisions with respect to education, we need in this country to fight against those interests that are taking the voices of the average Americans away.

I've done that for 35 years. And I intend to do that and stand up to them as president of the United States.

[paulk]

15. rural New Hampshire is hardly reflective of the rest of the country

Kerry is campaigning for the general election. Kerry's not dropping out if he "loses" New Hampshire.

In the long run, kerry's position on gun control will resonate with more liberal Democrats than Deans', and liberal Democrats are the bulk of the party.

[maxanne]

17. great strategy

paulk - if Democrats want to keep losing.

[paulk]

20. see post #18

Frankly, I don't want to be a member of a party that represents gun-toting rednecks who can't figure out that gun control and anti-gun are two different things. Let the Republicans have them.

[maxanne]

22. another city dweller weighs in

Guns hurt more than Nader, in NH. Of course, you being from away and all, probably know better than a dumb redneck like me.

[paulk]

28. other than just saying, "guns hurt more than Nader."

Would you care to make an argument supporting that?

There are a whole lot more people living in cities than in the country. It's where the votes are. Why would a Dem. candidate alienate city voters, who tend to vote Democratic?


Are "dumb rednecks" like you foolish enough to vote on a single issue this time around?

[KaraokeKarlton]

37. Pure hypocrisy

Are "dumb rednecks" like you foolish enough to vote on a single issue this time around?

Apparently you are willing to not vote for Dean over this same issue, at least that's the impression I'm getting. Dean is the better candidate all around. His campaign is better, he's raising more money, he is getting more people into the process. Yet those who rag on him all the time usually do it over one or two issues. So tell me, what is the difference between us "rural rednecks" valuing ALL of the constitution and the 2nd Amendment and the "city slickers" wanting to force us rednecks to embrace what you value?

[paulk]

119. Dean's NRA "A" rating is not the only reason I don't support him

So your "hypocrisy" argument falls flat on it's face.

I don't want rural rednecks to embrace what I value - I don't want THEIR values shoved down MY throat. It's happened here in CO, where a right wing legislature has superceded restrictive city gun laws on concealed weapons and shot down closing the gun show loophole. I want strong federal law, not states's rights right wing rhetoric.

[Romulus]

121. I don't see

how allowing other people the opportunity to have choices is the same as shoving something down your throat.

It's happened here in CO, where a right wing legislature has superceded restrictive city gun laws on concealed weapons

I presume you are mad about CO stripping away Denver's unfettered discretion to refuse to issue handgun permits (to those who otherwise meet the qualifications), after Denver LEO's abused that discretion by refusing to issue ANY permits?

It's a person's support for that sort of arbitrary government control over their lives that angers people and moves them to oppose that person. The Brady Campaign supports those arbitrary discretion laws, Kerry's home state has those types of laws; Kerry proudly touts his Brady qualifications and how he wants to bring them with him to the Pres - you do the math on what people will conclude.

[paulk]

127. not handgun permits

concealed weapon (handgun) permits.

Otherwise, you've put it in a nutshell. If people support Dean over Kerry in N.H. because of this issue, so be it. K.K. started this thread by saying it would mean the end of Kerry's campaign - I think that is absurd. I think that in the long run, as more voters become aware, Dean's "A" rating will hurt him among Democrats more than Kerry's "F" will.

I also think this is why Kerry bought it up at the debate - to make an issue of this difference between himself and Dean. Will it hurt or help? We'll see, I guess.

[KaraokeKarlton]

132. Do you even realize how awful you sound

by using the term "rural rednecks"? It makes you sound like a bigot. Is that really how you want to sound? Just what is your problem with rural people? People in rural areas don't give a crap what people in the cities do as long as it doesn't affect our way of life in ways we don't like. Everyone has a choice of where they decide to live. If crime really bothers you, then move out of the city...problem solved. No amount of laws are going to take crime out of the city. The only way to avoid city crime is to leave the city. That's not going to change.

[paulk]

155. you know, it you actually read these posts

you would realize that I used redneck in response to a poster who referred to HERSELF as a redneck.

If crime really bothers me, then move out of the city... problem solved? Jesus... that's really fucking dumb.

That's it. You're right. I'm moving to Vermont.

[KaraokeKarlton]

181. Crime is to be expected in a city

Anytime you cram that many people in such a small amount of space there is going to be crime and violence. It's an urban issue, NOT a gun issue. I lived in a huge apartment building where the apartments were TOO close together, and there were too many people in too few square feet of space and there was more fighting, violence and crime in that one building in a month than in the rest of the town in an entire year! Guns are NOT the issue...too many people in too small an area sets the tone for problems. That's never going to change no matter how many laws are put on the books for the sake of appearances.

[stickdog]

67. Damn, where do you live, man?

Ever been to the south?

Ever been to the country?

[paulk]

112. I grew up in a tiny upstate NY township

part of a graduating highschool class of 72 people. I'm familiar with small towns and rural outlooks. I spent over twenty years working for the railroad all over Wyoming, Nebraska, Colorado and Utah, often spending months at a time in some little bumfuck town in the middle of nowhere. I've never lived in the south, but I've spent enough time there to know that I DON'T want to.

Don't make the mistake that my POV is the result of being a "city slicker".

[maxanne]

69. feel free to dismiss

rural voters as dumb hicks. How many votes was it that Gore lost by?

I'd say I have a distinct advantage in knowing NH - since I'm from here and you aren't. NH hasn't fully embraced a 2 party system - never mind getting behind the idea of 3 parties. Feel free to prove to me that Nader was a big force in 2000.

How I vote is only one person. My make or break issue doesn't happen to be guns. But there are plenty of people for whom it is very important, and some of those folks are dedicated liberals and Democrats. Of course they don't count, because only people in cities matter.

I am amazed that people here can continue to blame the guns for the violence in this country. Until we examine the root causes, and do something about them - we are doomed. Angry young people are committing acts of violence against homeless people. They aren't shooting them - they are beating them up. Are these young people angry with homeless people because there are guns in their state? I don't think so. The violence and aggression are something we need to address quite seriously. But blaming the guns is like blaming the mailman for bringing the mail.

[Romulus]

107. "living in the city"

Where I live in heavily Dem Rockville, MD, (which qualifies as "city" unless you only think cities are Chicago and NYC), believe it or not there is exists a gun range in town, one that is jam packed with shooters from opening to closing, starting on Thursday and not letting up until Monday.

I guess all those (D) Montgomery County residents are a bunch of "freeper country rednecks." :eyes:

[paulk]

114. Gore won Maryland 57-40

So I guess the gun control issue didn't hurt him too badly, huh?

If you read the post I was replying to, you will note that MaxAnne referred to herself as a "dumb redneck", which is why I put it in quotes. I would never call anyone that - they might get pissed off and shoot me.

[KaraokeKarlton]

33. You don't get it

Because of a few very loud radically anti-gun democrats who have screeched for banning guns...gun owners DON'T trust Democrats when they say "gun control" anymore than you trust Republicans when they say "regulate abortion" because of the radically pro-choice doctor shooting anti-abortionists. It's really quite simple. There are a hell of a lot more people who own guns than there are people who really want more gun control.

[paulk]

117. Well, no, I don't get it, KK

I don't get why your rants read like something right out of the NRA
political action handbook.

You constantly tie gun control to banning guns, which is bullshit, but I suspect you know that.

And the people who are far enough toward the right wing to buy that meme are going to be voting Republican anyway.

[KaraokeKarlton]

134. It's not "bullshit", it's the REALITY Democrats are dealing with

Democrats NEED to change the perception if they want to set things straight. By reacting as you have to the reality that this perception exists, you allow it to continue. It needs to be talked about and a sensible approach to guns needs to be taken. Dean has that very approach.

[KaraokeKarlton]

31. It will hurt him in the general too

He's toast over this issue. If Kerry were the nominee the only way he'd beat Bush would be in a "sqeaker"...and he effectively shot himself in the foot with bringing up the gun control issue. It was DUMB DUMB DUMB. Guns are huge all over the country.

[dsc]

19. I think Kerry will lose NH

but not over this and not by the amount you think. I don't think guns are a huge deal in Democratic primaries. I do think the general election has proven to be a different story.

[KaraokeKarlton]

42. Oh, it will have an impact in NH for sure

As well as some other Democratic primary states. It won't matter in all states, but in NH, guns are one of the top two issues for the state. In NH it does matter, A LOT. Since Kerry NEEDS to win in NH, his staff should have KNOWN better than this. Either they are idiots or someone with serious influence in his campaign wants him to lose.

[MrPeepers]

78. Or...

they stick to what they believe in. Unlike some other candidates I could name.....

Peepers

[poskonig]

23. Kerry may be flanking Dean on the left.

Kerry's got enough liberal credentials not to bring the gun stuff up. He can spin out of it by the general election, but he needs to do well in rural primary states. I wouldn't have done it; I would have talked about Iran Contra or the environment.

Perhaps Team Kerry is thinking about flanking Dean on the left, which would be a definitely doable strategy, especially with a sizable percentage of voters desiring an actual liberal.

[genius]

55. I'm out here in California where we like gun control

We have the most electoral votes. Dennis is also for gun control.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

59. In Montana

the NRA targeted Baucus after he voted for the assault weapons ban and we re-elected him twice! It's a myth that all gun owners are unreasonable NRA-types. We don't have to give up our principles to beat Bush.

And as Harry Truman said: "If the voters are given a choice between a Democrat who acts like a Republican and a Republican they will choose the real thing and vote for the Republican!"

[KaraokeKarlton]

60. Kerry loses California for his war vote

along with a few others. Kucinich isn't going to be able to win there because he's too far left. Clark is struggling to get his issues presented in a coherent enough way coming into the mix so late, so I don't think he will take the state, either. If he had entered earlier I think he would have been a much bigger contender. Since Dean is all for more gun control for California if California wants it, he doesn't lose votes from a significant number of voters on either side of the issue. Smart politics and the right position. I say Dean will take Calilfornia too.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

66. But you already predicted Kerry would drop out before then!

Maybe for your next prediction you can tell us

what's in the envelope?

[genius]

123. Dean lose California because of his support for the $87 billion

He stated this clearly and unequivocally in the CNN debate before the vote. A lot of Californians are not paying attention to the debate. The honest candidtes ought to use the tape of the interchange between Dennis and Dean in the CNN debate and include it in commercials to end Dean's chances in CA.

Kerry, Edwards, Kucinch and Sharpton, unlike Dean, opposed the $87 billion.

[sandnsea]

68. Just pander then?

Cave in to one of the most powerful right wing special interest groups in the country?

I like the guy who sticks to his beliefs and fights special interests, no matter what. That's why I support Kerry and will never think Howard Dean is truly fit to be a Democratic President.

[KaraokeKarlton]

74. Stop associating gun owners with the NRA

Because most gun owners are NOT members. And in all fairness, not everything the NRA stands for are things you'd be against. The NRA played a huge part in helping Dean get hundreds of thousands of acres of land in Vermont protected from development. Those evil bastards! :eyes:

Dean doesn't pander to the NRA or any other group. He supports what he feels is right, period. But Kerry changes his mind everytime the polls imply that he should. If Kerry really stuck to his beliefs than he would have voted against the war in Iraq this time just like he did last time. Kerry keeps lying to voters and I don't think he's fit to be in his current position, let alone the Oval Office.

[MrPeepers]

77. Right.

If Kerry really stuck to his beliefs, he'd come out in opposition to the NRA and for restrictions on gun ownership despite the fact that this will really hurt him in NH! Wait... that's what he did. Clearly Kerry is pandering and shifting his opinions to match public opinion, since he's taking this particular stance which will, you said so yourself, hurt him in NH. I'd get your facts straight before you continue to blindly accuse Kerry of "lying to voters" and accusing him of not being "fit to be in his current position." Without Senator Kerry, you lose a powerful voice for the Environment, Gay Rights, Economic Reform and progressive taxation policy, the list goes on and on. I think Kerry is as fit as anyone to hold is current position, and more fit than anyone to sit in the Oval Office.

Peepers

[Egnever]

97. Finally!

someone in the kerry camp finally faces the truth!

"If Kerry really stuck to his beliefs, he'd come out in opposition to the NRA and for restrictions on gun ownership despite the fact that this will really hurt him in NH!"

kerry is for gun control. It will hurt him in NH. There was no need for him to make that statement all he did was hurt himself in NH.

Finally someone admits the truth instead of trying to say kerry isnt for gun control and it wont hurt him.

Stupid move on kerry's part but I gree with you at least he apears to be standing up for what he believes in in this case.

[Pez]

103. hold on a sec--

Finally someone admits the truth instead of trying to say kerry isnt for gun control and it wont hurt him.

we have been saying he stands up for responsible gun control and fighting special interests like the NRA his entire career, like a true democrat. where did you get the idea we said kerry isn't for responsible gun control policies?

[Egnever]

126. Why dont you explain to me what

Responsible gun control policies means then I will tell you.

fighting for more means to me taking away freedoms that are allready there. Kerry said he wanted to fight for more responsible gun control laws. I think the gun control laws are plenty responsible allready.

What is it kerry wants to add? what is it hes fighting for? I sure as hell dont know all i know is he says hes ready to fight for some more gun control legislation and to me that means taking away more gun ownership rights.

Maybe kerry should have been more specific and he wouldnt be able to be acused of trying to take guns away from people.

Feel free to let me know what this new gun control legislatiuon he is fighting for does that doesnt affect gun owners freedoms. Kerry should have maybe you can.

[MrPeepers]

157. This is what he's fighting for.

"John Kerry is a gun owner and hunter, and he believes that law-abiding American adults have the right to own guns. But like all of our rights, gun rights come with responsibilities, and those rights allow for reasonable restrictions to keep guns out of the wrong hands. John Kerry strongly supports all of the federal gun laws on the books, and he would take steps to ensure that they are vigorously enforced, cracking down hard on the gun runners, corrupt dealers, straw buyers, and thieves that are putting guns into the hands of criminals in the first place. He will also close the gun show loophole, which is allowing criminals to get access to guns at gun shows without background checks, fix the background check system, which is in a serious state of disrepair, and require that all handguns be sold with a child safety lock."

I don't see that as fighting gun owners freedoms. I see it as common sense.

Peepers

[KaraokeKarlton]

135. If Dean hadn't criticized his Bush supporting votes

He'd still be making the same crappy votes he has been for what, 3 years now? :eyes:

And yes, Kerry lies constantly. But hey, he's desperate and knows his ship is sinking. What else is he gonna do?

[blm]

90. Then why does Dean bring up the NRA when he chooses?

When he first started running to claim the center he brought up the NRA rating all the time. It wasn't till he saw an opportunity with the antiwar crowd that he shifted strategy and coopted the lingo of the populist. Then he rarely brought up the NRA unless pressed.

How convenient.

[killbotfactory]

92. He never stopped mentioning it

He lets people know up front about it. Dean won't pass useless gun control laws, and he lets everyone know it.

[Egnever]

95. ROFL

That was quite possibly the funniest thing you have ever said!

Kerry king of the pander standing up for his beliefs yea right!

[Monte Carlo]

75. Will the fact that Kerry is a hunter be ignored?

I know he's a vicious liberal gun-grabber, but I also happen to know that he goes out on hunting trips - with a gun - and is able to actually hit something. It seems to me that makes him a great example of responsible personal gun ownership.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

81. No, it won't.

NRA-sponsored hysteria notwithstanding, the majority of gun owners support common-sense gun safety laws.

[PAMod]

82. Here's a thought

Maybe Team Kerry thinks they are going to lose NH.

Conventional wisdom says he is toast if he loses there - BUT, what if they can say "we lost NH because of our committment to gun control...

Nationally, most Democrats favor gun control. Losing NH because of guns could be used as a badge of honor elsewhere - keeping his campaign alive to fight another day, and keeping the dough rolling in.

Just a thought.

[MrPeepers]

85. Right on.

Dead on. Right on. Quite correct. Amen. High five.

Peepers

[maxanne]

87. wrong wrong wrong

it won't play in the south, the north, or the west. It will only be seen as a badge of honor among a part of the Democratic population. That population isn't big enough to elect Kerry or anyone else.

The position will hurt Kerry, when it comes to moderate Republicans/Independants who are ready to turn on Bush.

Kerry's already been badly hurt by his vote for the war and for No Child Left Behind. That's what's killing him in NH, by the way. He hasn't been brave enough to own the votes, either - he's made wussy excuses about being misled. I knew they were both shitty votes at the time he made them. Maybe I'm the one who should be running for president.

[Pez]

83. frankly, i disagree with you on this issue with every fiber of my being.

kerry, a hunter, advocates gun laws that do not affect the ability for responsible gun owners to hunt.

unless you want to have a hissy fit, there is no reason to. people can understand that he is not going to stand in the way of responsible gun ownership. just because you do not want to understand kerry's position and underestimate people's ability to think through this issue doesn't make it reality.

[Romulus]

86. what about the other uses?

kerry, a hunter, advocates gun laws that do not affect the ability for responsible gun owners to hunt.

So I guess that means he's all for laws that restrict the exercise of my legal duty to provide for my own immediate self-defense. :eyes:

[Pez]

93. what an interesting conclusion.

[Pez]

100. if you are a law abiding gun owner, you don't have a problem.

kerry has a 100% rating from the coalition to stop gun violence. he is for the assault weapons ban, the brady bill and responsible gun ownership.

policies need to change that enable criminals to move guns across state boarders, putting them in the hands of violent offenders who commit crimes in cities. stricter laws for gun shows, limiting the number of weapons allowed to be purchased, background checks and waiting periods do not hinder any responsible gun owner. it does however help to end the ability of criminals to obtain weapons to commit acts of violence.

i don't think anyone would mind waiting a day to get a gun if it meant overall that their fellow citizens in places where gun violence is a problem will be a safer. only selfish isolationists who don't care about other americans and want to see kerry's position as some kind of threat will be turned off...

by and large i would imagine the people who will base their vote on this issue are firmly in the bush camp anyway.

[Romulus]

106. keep telling yourself that

by and large i would imagine the people who will base their vote on this issue are firmly in the bush camp anyway.

BTW, www.CSGV.org is an organization that seeks to "stop gun violence" by banning private handgun ownership, a la DC.

if you are a law abiding gun owner, you don't have a problem.

Since I don't yet hunt, I would fall into Kerry's category of non-"law abiding firearm owner." Thanks for playing.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

109. What are you talking about?

"Since I don't yet hunt, I would fall into Kerry's category of non-'law abiding firearm owner.' Thanks for playing."

That statement makes no sense whatsoever. You are simply misrepresenting Kerry's position on gun safety, which is:

Increased Gun Safety: John Kerry is a gun owner and hunter, and he believes that law-abiding American adults have the right to own guns. But like all of our rights, gun rights come with responsibilities, and those rights allow for reasonable restrictions to keep guns out of the wrong hands. John Kerry strongly supports all of the federal gun laws on the books, and he would take steps to ensure that they are vigorously enforced, cracking down hard on the gun runners, corrupt dealers, straw buyers, and thieves that are putting guns into the hands of criminals in the first place. He will also close the gun show loophole, which is allowing criminals to get access to guns at gun shows without background checks, fix the background check system, which is in a serious state of disrepair, and require that all handguns be sold with a child safety lock.
www.johnkerry.com/issues/crime.html

Somehow you got from that the conclusion that Kerry thinks unless you are a hunter, your gun is illegal? I don't get it...

[Pez]

110. just because *i* said "hunter" does not mean that's all kerry talks about

from his issues page:

Increased Gun Safety: John Kerry is a gun owner and hunter, and he believes that law-abiding American adults have the right to own guns. But like all of our rights, gun rights come with responsibilities, and those rights allow for reasonable restrictions to keep guns out of the wrong hands. John Kerry strongly supports all of the federal gun laws on the books, and he would take steps to ensure that they are vigorously enforced, cracking down hard on the gun runners, corrupt dealers, straw buyers, and thieves that are putting guns into the hands of criminals in the first place. He will also close the gun show loophole, which is allowing criminals to get access to guns at gun shows without background checks, fix the background check system, which is in a serious state of disrepair, and require that all handguns be sold with a child safety lock.


kerry is not beholden to any one organization. his platform does not mirror CSGV's policies. there is no reason to freak out and think he will take your-- or any other legal gun owner's-- gun away. he won't.

[killbotfactory]

89. It's odd that he's playing this up, since they have very similar views

From what I've seen, the only difference is that Kerry supports forcing child safety locks on guns.

Dean just has a history of not passing useless gun laws in his state, and doesn't harp on the issue, so I can see him being trusted by gun owners who would otherwise vote democratic if it weren't for this issue.

[blm]

91. HAHAH...BINGO! Because Dean is being disingenuous about this issue, too.

Just like the idea that he is antiwar and Kerry is prowar. They are both closer to each other on Iraq than many realize. And they are closer on THE GUN ISSUE than many realize. Kerry is playing along with Dean's own distortions of being the only candidate unaffected by the gun issue. He will be affected by the time the GOP and NRA dump all over him.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

113. Damn. This could be a new strategy to bring focus to Dean and Kerry

and show where they really do or do not differ. Very interesting and very intriguing that Kerry threw that "gun safety" bit out at the end Sunday.

[killbotfactory]

138. Oh wait...

I just learned Kerry wants to develop and require smart gun technology. That's probably a minus with gun owners, along with his history of voting 100% with the coalition to stop gun violence. http://www.candidatesonguns.org

That might hurt him.

[blm]

142. Care to list where they differ enough to make Dean progun and

Kerry antigun?

Is Dean campaigning against smart gun technology?

[killbotfactory]

160. I'm just saying, Dean will be slightly stronger with gun owners

I don't know if Dean is for smart technology or not, but he doesn't have a record like kerry's.

[cindyw]

144. What is our party worth if it abandons it's stance on gun issues.

If having an F with NRA and a 100% with the Coalition to stop gun violence is bad for a candidate then I don't know what is good. What next? having an A level rating with the League of Conservation Voters is bad for a Democratic candidate?

How many children have to die by their own parents' guns before we start to have some reason. If NH has a problem with this then they should not have such a huge roll in choosing the Dem candidate. IMHO

[KaraokeKarlton]

147. Are you saying that Democrats

want to keep on adding more and more gun laws when the ones that have been already added have proven ineffective in stopping gun violence? Why are more needed? What more do you want?

THIS is why gun owners don't trust Democrats on the 2nd Amendment.

[cindyw]

151. Not more, just better and more effective ones. Consolidation is fine.

I also disagree that current gun laws have not been effective. The Brady bill and the assault weapons ban are good.

I think a child's safety is worth beating the drum for over and over and over and over. My party might as well forget about protecting a womans' right to choose.

[KaraokeKarlton]

183. The assault weapons ban didn't save my loved one

That's what he was killed with. The ammo was illegal, too. If gun control actually worked, the person who shot him would not have been able to get his hands on the gun or the ammo. I KNOW first hand that gun control laws aren't worth the paper they're written on when push comes to shove. They are just soemthing that makes people like you feel safer when you really aren't. Criminals don't obtain guns legally and they don't follow laws. They never will.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

185. What kind of gun was it?

[killbotfactory]

161. I disagree with our party's focus on gun control

I think the bill of rights should be interpereted as liberally as possible, and think focusing on early childhood intervention, ending or drastically changing the nature of the drug war, helping poor communities, and enforcing current gun control laws should be the focus and would help reduce violence more than any new federal gun control scheme.

[cindyw]

163. How do you organize all 50 states to do these things if you abandon

the issue entirely to the states?

[killbotfactory]

177. You don't abandon the issue entirely

You keep the current laws and enforce them.

Frankly, I don't see how it effects NY if Montana has a lax concealed carry law, for example. Or if people can drive with a shotgun rack in the back of their truck. Or whatever.

[blm]

165. I thought you were an independent? Did you reregister

as a Democrat?

[killbotfactory]

175. I was independent before Bush was appointed

Now I'm a registered democrat.

[AWD]

120. It's OK

...he's getting his clock cleaned in NH anyway. He wasn't going to win the state anyway.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

122. What state(s) will he win?

Besides Massachusetts, maybe?

[foo_bar]

125. he's in good company

See: Tsongas '92, Buchanan '96, McCain '00.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

136. Let's count...how many votes cast in NH today?

0

[DemDogs]

145. Straight talker changes his rant

Now he thinks the states should control except that now he says that he is for assault weapon ban, for closing the gun show loophole (!), etc. Conclusion: he is just like Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt have always been on gun control, only he either was being disingenuous with the NRA before (they never would endorse anyone with these exceptions) OR he is being disingenuous with us now. Take your pick.

[blm]

150. Exactly!

Dean does whatever Dean can for DEAN. He could give a rat's ass about most of the issues that he claims to care about.

[genius]

168. Personally, I think the eight best candidates ought to get together

ASAP and let America know what Dean really stands for. Then people will start looking at the issues rather than for the Kool-Aid.

[KaraokeKarlton]

184. Go for it!

All that would do (IF they actually told the TRUTH) would be get more votes for Dean. But of course, you are convinced that Dean's supporters are mindless zombies who didn't bother look at his record and where he stood before supporting him. Just because you decided to jump on a campaign without doing your homework doesn't mean everyone else is so careless.