Poll: Support for Clark ebbing

[pruner]

Democrats warming to liberal as candidate, survey shows

Monday, October 27, 2003 Posted: 10:50 PM EST (0350 GMT)

(CNN) -- The small boom of support for retired Gen. Wesley Clark, which pushed him to the front of national polls in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination, appears to be ebbing, according to a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll.

The poll released Monday also shows former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean with a slim lead over Clark for the 2004 election, while Missouri Rep. Dick Gephardt is benefiting from an uptick in popularity.

It also showed that the Democratic mood may be swinging to the left, with 39 percent of registered Democrats now saying they would prefer a liberal nominee. Back in August, just 27 percent wanted a liberal standard-bearer to face President Bush next November.

Support for a moderate nominee rather than a liberal among Democrats is down to 53 percent, compared to more than two-thirds in August.

<snip>



http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/27/poll.democrats/

[Brucey]

1. It's sad to see DK so low, he deserves better.

We've got good people here. Wish they would stop bashing each other at the debates and put together a unified message.

[JohnKleeb]

5. They will wake up someday I hope

Ive said that being a Kucinich supporter is both an honor and ever the hard but its so right.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

2. I like the trend.

Voters are starting to realize we need someone who is a clear contrast to Bush.

Not a centrist :vs: a conservative.

But a liberal :vs: a conservative.

[Cogito]

21. actually dems favor a centrist over a liberal

Centrists: Kerry, Lieberman, Clark, Edwards and Gephardt = 54%
Liberals: Dean, Kucinich, Braun and Sharpton = 27%
Undecided: 18%

[Feanorcurufinwe]

23. Kerry's no centrist.

You might want to educate yourself about Kerry's record.

And as far as who Dems favor, we'll find out when they start voting, won't we?

[diplomats]

3. I don't care if our candidate is a liberal, a moderate

or a Trotskyite - as long as he beats Bush! :)

[Skittles]

4. these polls don't mean a f***ing thing

not a damn thing

[JohnKleeb]

6. yep they dont mean fuck

to me.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

24. Nope.

They won't mean a f***ing thing until July of next year. There are only two meaningful polls. The first 3 primary/caucus polls and Chimp's re-elect number.

[tsipple]

7. Dean Can't Be Pigeonholed Ideologically

You can't really say he's liberal, moderate, or conservative. He's (truly) conservative on fiscal issues (balanced budget), libertarian on social issues (e.g. civil unions) and guns and (as close as possible politically) drugs, liberal on political issues (campaign organization and grassroots, small-donor fundraising, etc.), and moderate on foreign policy (against Iraq War the Sequel, for Afghanistan, for Iraq War I, honest broker Israel-Palestine).

I do think at the rate Iraq is going Democrats would be best to nominate someone without "complications." Dean (and Braun, Sharpton, Kucinich) do seem to be vindicated. (And how sad they were right. We were all hoping they were wrong -- that rosy scenario would come to pass.)

[KittyWampus]

8. Fact- Clark Is To The Left Of Dean

His speaking schedule has been hampered by throat problems. With margin of error Clark may very well be in the lead.

It's funny that when Clark was WELL ahead of Dean in the National Polls the Dean Supporters on DU said that National Polls didn't matter.

It's curious how strenously the media is doing their best to kill off Clark's campaign.

See Here for Daily Howler for a prime example as it looks at last night's debate- it talks about how one mediawhore writes that Clark "struggled" during the debate:
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh102703.shtml

NAGOURNEY: At several points, General Clark appeared to struggle as he explained his views on the war in response to a challenge from a questioner.

snip

"But why did Clark “appear to struggle?” Because Nagourney baldly misstated what he actually said. Here is the actual Federal Document Clearing House transcript of what was actually said:

CAMERON: General, there is a long litany of comments from you, both in your time as a former television analyst and then over the course of the last several months. Are we to understand that what you’re saying now is that those things you have said that were positive about the war was not what you meant?

CLARK: No, I always—I’m a fair person, Carl. And when this administration's done something right, well, if they were Russians doing something right, Chinese doing something right, French doing something right or even Republicans doing something right—

(LAUGHTER)

I’m going to praise them.

Now, this country was attacked on 9/11, and it was right that this administration went into Afghanistan. And I supported that war; so did 90 percent of the American people. That Taliban government should have been taken out.

But the failure of this administration was not to put the troops in to finish the job against Osama bin Laden. And you know why they didn’t do it? They didn’t do it because, all along, their plan was to save those troops to go after Saddam Hussein.

So I support them for what they did right, and I condemn them for what they did wrong.

IFILL: Thank you, General.

(APPLAUSE)

You’d never know it from reading Nagourney’s report, but that’s what was actually said. In fact, Clark “struggled” so hard to convey his meaning that it was greeted with laughter and applause! But it isn’t hard to make out Nagourney’s meaning. He meant to spread a scripted message—Wesley Clark is a big, fucking mess. And how did Nagourney create this impression? By baldly misstating what Clark really said!


Instead of presenting Clark’s actual statement, Nagourney spliced in something Clark said to another question, earlier in the debate. And he said the resulting pseudo-reply was an example of Clark’s hopeless bungling!

[mzmolly]

9. What issues is he 'left' of Dean on?

Thanks.

[tsipple]

12. Some People Say Taxes

But I disagree completely with that. It is the progressive policy to pay your bills, to balance the budget. Governments awash in debt cannot sustain beneficial social programs, particularly with Baby Boomers getting into retirement. Balanced budgets also contribute to growth and prosperity. And imbalanced budgets mean paying off debt with interest. Wealthy Americans can simply transfer wealth to their heirs to pay those taxes. Middle and lower income Americans don't have that luxury, so their children are stuck paying the bill out of their own pockets, making upward mobility more difficult.

[KittyWampus]

13. Well, Let's See

I'm really tired and about to nod off but here's two:

Cutting Pentagon Budget
Not Repealing Middle Class tax cuts and child benefits.

And balancing budget... not essential to do it in four years as Dean suggests... in fact doing it too quickly could be devastating to the Lower Income famliies.

[stickdog]

15. 1) Dean cannot politically suggest that he'll cut defense.

2) Dean has already said that he probably won't be able to balance the budget in four years, and that he'll put job creation first.

3) Middle class taxcuts is all you got, and Clark defines "middle class" as anyone making less than $200,000 a year.

[robbedvoter]

22. Cuban embargo. Don't ask don't misbehave. And no NRA A grade

Also, Clark is not ashamed to be called liberal.
See that exchange:
Maher: I want to read you a quote,
because Howard Dean said "...In Vermont, you know, politics is much
farther to the left. A Vermont centrist is an American liberal right
now." And then his campaign manager came out and said "That's not an
admission he's a liberal!" Which, quite frankly pissed me off. Somehow
they hijacked that word. And you're a Democrat, you said that last week.
Clark: Absolutely. (audience applause)
Maher: OK. I'm just wondering, of all the people who have the
credentials to say "liberal" is not a bad word, I'm wondering if I could
get you to say that.
Clark: Well, I'll say it right now.
Maher: Good for you!
Clark: We live in a liberal democracy. That's what we created in this
country. It's in our constitution! We should be very clear on this...
this country was founded on the principles of the enlightenment. It was
the idea that people could talk, have reasonable dialogue and discuss
the issues. It wasn't founded on the idea that someone would get struck
by a divine inspiration and know everything, right from wrong. People
who founded this country had religion, they had strong beliefs, but they
believed in reason, and dialogue, and civil discourse. We can't lose
that in this country. We've got to get it back.

[tsipple]

11. Well, I'll Repeat It

National polls don't matter. It's not how the Democratic nomination process works.

They only start to matter as we get closer to the general election, and even then they're overrated.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

14. Domestically, he sure talks to the left of Dean.

He has no record, so it's just talk of course. I like the way it sounds though.

As far as his war stance, of course he has no political record there either (experience waging it -yes). He does have plenty of talk, but I can't really tell from that talk how he would have proceeded had he been the President. I've always been a big fan of F.A.I.R, and I found the enthusiasm I felt after hearing him interviewed, somewhat tempered by the scathing review he received from them.

I think no matter which of our candidates is elected, he might be a good choice for Defense Secretary.

[Dagaz]

10. My wild (or not) theory

I can't figure out this Clark phenomenon since he has no political history. Right now I'm going with the theory that he's there as a stalking horse in case Hillary decides to run. Remember that Bill was a long shot with papa Bush coming off a war with insane approval numbers. Hillary may or may not run but my thinking is that she's waiting to see if there's a chance and see how Georgie does with Iraq, the Christma shopping season, etc.

Clark isn't looking for veep but would be the obvious replacement for Powell. The Clintons won before with a Southern strategy so the veep would be Edwards who has what they want...smarts, charm, looks and a southerner.

Hillary would rather wait until 2008 but Dean could mess with that strategy if he ends up with control of the party and ousts Terry McAwful. It's still less than 50-50 that Hillary runs in my book but maintaining control of the party may mean that it's a call she has to make.

[Skwmom]

16. Well after being smeared by the corporate owned media and

some of those "lifelong" Democratic candidates he running against, I'm amazed he's holding up as well as he has. Politics is a slimy business. I think Nader is right in some respects - there is no difference between the Dems and the Repubs. No wonder so many people have tuned out the political process.

[FrenchieCat]

17. Why does Clark's get positive progressive press coverage?

I NOTE that the national corporate media had very little positive to write about Wesley Clark in the last month. The stories of his alleged flip/flops, resolutions questions, rocky campaign, stalking horse, Real Democrat or not, praising Bush, Kosovo/Ralston/Cohen smears, Crazy as a loon, and even Waco(what did he know, and when did he know it)
have made more headlines than Clark's policy speeches.

CONTRAST Governor Dean who seems to be enjoying wide spread corporate press adoration,
including some straight up right wing positive press coverage
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/997166/posts
http://www.alankeyes.com/columns/mostert/030805
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/073ylkiz.asp
http://www.nationalreview.com/ponnuru/ponnuru200310271043.asp Article says Clark's campaign has had it..........and that Dean is the guy......
While the New York post does a great front page story about Dean
http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/41887.htm
and blessed it's page with this Pic

The Wall Street Editorial page was also very gracious to Dean
http://www.opinionjournal.com/politicaldiary/?id=110004203
The former Vermont governor now has the clearest path to the Democratic nomination of any candidate. If he wins in Iowa, he knocks out Dick Gephardt. If he wins in New Hampshire, he knocks out John Kerry. By then he'd likely be unstoppable, notwithstanding the inevitable Joe Lieberman, Wesley Clark or John Edwards claim to be the "stop-Dean" candidate.

This time with a nice WSJ sketch portrait


MEANWHILE, I note that Clark has captured support from some illustrious Progressive publications and liberal writers. Gene Lyons, Joe Conason, Michael Moore, Robert Scheer, Josh Marshall, Michelle Goldberg, Boondocks' McCrudder, Bill Maher, Salon.com, Mediawhoresonline.com, dailygusto, Tnr, Buzzflash, and others.
http://aggressive-voice.com/zz585.html
http://www.winternet.com/~trashman/
http://www.emergingdemocraticmajorityweblog.com/donkeyrising/archives/000298.html
http://www.salon.com/opinion/scheer/2003/10/08/clark/index_np.html
http://salon.com/news/feature/2003/10/23/clark/index_np.html
http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=851
http://www.dailygusto.com/news/october/democrats-101503.html
http://www.dailygusto.com/news/july/wesley-clark-072803.html
https://ssl.tnr.com/p/docsub.mhtml?i=20031103&s=lizza110303&e=1
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=bjq57awwJ36hUmhMuLKmgm%3D%3D
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2003_09_28.html#002033
http://demwatch.blogspot.com/2003_10_12_demwatch_archive.html#106619446353495555
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/10/int03221.html
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh102703.shtml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/14/wclark14.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/10/14/ixworld.html
http://aggressive-voice.com/zz590.html
http://aggressive-voice.com/zz584.html Satire....Why I hate Wesley Clark


Many cable network talking heads have been writing Clark off for the last month.
Drudge, Tucker Carlson, William Kristol, Pat Buchanan, Novak, Tony Blankley, and many other mediawhores are saying that he is has all but disappeared. Now this is based on the fact that Wes Clark (1.3 months) into entrance is now statistically tied with Dean in the National polls in first place (16%Dean/15%Clark/margin of error +/-5), and he's in the top 2nd or 3rd in most state polls. The whispers are out......Clark is finished.

But Why?

I just read the DU thread : POLL: Support for Clark ebbing

mmm.....mmm......ARE SOME THAT GULLIBLE, OR WHAT?

October 27, 2003 - General Wesley Clark visited workers on the front lines of America's health care system Monday to discuss the challenges they face in events leading up to the introduction of his health care policy Tuesday.


October 27, 2003 Meanwhile in Wisconsin, today, Current and former elected officials who endorsed General Clark this morning include: Rep. Spencer Black of Madison, Rep. Marlin Schneider of Wisconsin Rapids, Rep. Lena Taylor of Milwaukee, Rep. Dave Travis of Westport, Dane County Clerk Joe Parisi, former Rep. Lou Fortis of Milwaukee, former Sen. Rod Moen, former Rep. Barbara Notestein, former Rep. Rosemary Potter, and the former Chair of the Madison City Council, Eve Galanter.

Among the troop of endorsers were Retired Major Hank Simon, a member of General Clark's class at West Point, and Representative Lena Taylor, a former board member of the NAACP. Representative Dave Travis, the former Assembly Majority Leader
http://clark04.com/press/release/043/

[Skwmom]

18. I was thinking about that today.

Moore seems to be talking Clark up, Buzzflash has been pretty up front about it, and MWO has been getting accused of favoring Clark.

The people that run these sights are good at seeing the game for what it is (Rove and company are working overtime to pick our nominee). It's amazing when you step back and look at what is going on.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

20. I'ts most disappointing ....

when those that are enlightened are really wearing a big blindfold.

I guess the hard work done all summer is blinding!

[mmonk]

25. I don't think the polls mean much yet.

Clark may very well not make it, but someone now showing 6% might end up with the nomination. Alot of people aren't paying alot of attention like we are yet.