Regardless of whom you publicly support for president...

[MrSoundAndVision]

When you're in the box, vote Kucinich, I won't tell anybody.

He is the only candidate with a clear, intelligent strategy, and it is with him that the future that our children deserve is entangled. He is Jimmy Carter squared.

I urge my fellow Democrats to turn your back to the media's choice and support Dennis Kucinich. The revolution will not be televised!

Did you know: Thomas Jefferson in a letter to current president James Madison from France said that should an American without property come upon American land that is unfarmed and uninhabited, that it would be against natural law to deny him, as a government, the right to tend this land at a reasonably taxed rate from the government. He urged action on this issue after meeting a French peasant who lived next to the royal hunting ground. Quite a guy.

[JohnKleeb]

1. I hope more listen to you

We really are fortunate to have him in the race, one of the better candiates and someone I highly respect.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnKleeb]

3. yeah sure I dont

What do you know about who I respect and who I dont. :eyes:
Seriously you have a lot of nerve saying that.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrSoundAndVision]

19. Is Republican a bad word?

Or are you trying to moderate personal attacks. Message received, won't happen again. :)

[diamondsoul]

21. If I recall correctly,

the rule is that we can't accuse someone of being a disruptor, freeper, or Republican.

Hope that helps, but we appreciate your defense anyway.

[JohnKleeb]

22. No we cant but thanks though

We were generalized as greens last night and on and on, diamond its like they are asking me to explode for them, so last night I did finally explode, and went overboard well I said fuck a few times too many :D but I did apologize, I just get so sick with us being generalized like this.

[MrSoundAndVision]

26. John we need to hang...

and I need to send you a book (which I expect you to send back when completed). The book is: 'The Portable Thomas Jefferson', send me your address to: [e-mail]

[JohnKleeb]

27. I wouldnt mind but lol I am 16, I lose books fairly easily

but I found the book on amazon.com too. I wouldnt mind but you wouldnt like hanging with a 16 year old and no I am not the youngest here. Thanks though.

[MrSoundAndVision]

29. 16 is a good age for political thought

I don't want to tell you what I was doing at 16: supporting Ross Perot for one thing, and many other things not properly mentioned here.

OK, so you can't read the book, and probably your friends wouldn't really want to hang out with a stinky 27 year old, but I can be cool. Don't doubt that. I'm in wit it yo.

Well good for you for being involved with the cause. Ever read

http://www.wsws.org

I don't always agree with them and often fervently disagree, but it is a public institution nervertheless.

Charles

[MrSoundAndVision]

24. Amen, but I hope the rest of the world catches on...

Kucinich is my president too. And I am ready for a profound change to happen in this country with his election to the presidency. I am so ready and I hope you are too. Let us be captains of change, eh?

[JohnKleeb]

25. lets

of course. I miss the party I read about in the history books.

[sasquatch]

8. That's the most ignorant statement I've read on this board

I respect all the canidates and would vote for a used spitoon before I'd vote for Bush. I just like Kucinich because he's voted against the Patriot Act and Bush's Oil war. He's the best canidate in my opinion.

[cindyw]

4. I realy like my choice, so i can't promise anything, but

I love this idea for the general

Imagine:

Regardless of whether you support Bush in public, when you are in the box vote for ****. Take a chance on healing the divisions in this country.

[MrSoundAndVision]

9. Well actually the idea wasn't meant to be generalized or

formulized.

I said it so that I could get people to understand that though the media implies by dismissal that voting for Dennis Kucinich is a wasted vote because he's a freak or whatever. But thanks for the complement, but I don't want to extend the sentiment to other candidates.

[liberalmuse]

5. I love Kucinich...

and Dean, for different reasons, however, I will vote for whomever is on the Presidential ticket on the 'Democrat' side next November.

[MrSoundAndVision]

7. me too but,..

For now, Kucinich is the candidate with the most integrity. Imagine a new America that supports Kucinich against Bush next fall: this would be an America ready for the change, starving for it. And let us see an America that changes in response to Kucinich being elected as we did with Bush. That is the America I want my son to grow up in. Not a future entangled with deal makers and opportunists.

Though I know Dean would be better than Bush, his colors showed through when he didn't rescind those N.H. ads which lied (or rather showed that the voters should dismiss D.K. and Sharpton and M.B.). No thanks Dean, I'LL MAKE THAT DECISION!

[sasquatch]

10. You're a Kentuckian

Where is Berea BTW? How close are you to Ohio?

[MrSoundAndVision]

12. About an hour and a half

Why?

[MrSoundAndVision]

14. I mean, are you an Ohioan?

Or are you implying that I support the local candidate? Or what? Or is there much support for D.K. where you are?

[JohnKleeb]

15. I am kinda of a friend of Sas

first off soundandvision welcome to DU, second of all I agree Kucinich is the best, and on his question, yes hes an Ohioan. No hes not impling that at all. BTW I heard Kucinich's speech in Louisville, what a godo one.

[MrSoundAndVision]

17. I missed the Louisville speech

but thanks for the welcome, I don't know how I overlooked this site for so long, because it's great.

I have to admit though, I began as a Dean supporter, then saw a young man in Iowa ask Dean to respond to Kucinich's intentions of ditching NAFTA and the WTO, and his response was 'we need to subsidize small businesses...' and I thought to myself, yeah, but they'll still be selling goods made by slave labor. So I checked out Kucinich.

You know, we need to embark on an active campaign to switch supporters of the opportunists of the Democratic party to Kucinich. It is with them that the fate of the country hangs.

[JohnKleeb]

18. I considered Dean too

Its a good one. I just wish more caught the fire so to speak.

[drfemoe]

28. wow

that isn't the plan at all. Support who you want, but the idea that Dean doesn't address labor issues is way off the mark.

http://issues2002.org/2004/Howard_Dean_Free_Trade.htm
--snip--
KERRY: Yes, it is fair, because Gov. Dean has said very specifically that we should not trade with countries until they have labor and environment standards that are equal to the US. That means we would trade with no countries. It is a policy for shutting the door. It's either a policy for shutting the door, if you believe it, or it's a policy of just telling people what they want to hear.

DEAN: I supported NAFTA, I supported the WTO. We benefited in Vermont from trade. But in the Midwest, our manufacturing jobs are hemorrhaging. We have to go back and revise every single trade agreement that we have to include labor standards, environmental standards & human rights standards. If we don't, the trade policy that we seek to help globalize and help workers around the country & the world is going to fail.
Source: Debate at Pace University in Lower Manhattan Sep 25, 2003
--snip-- .. much more

http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M000003450&keyword=&phrase=free+trade&contain=
--snip--
Question: What is your policy on trade?
--snip--
The reason there's a middle class in this country is that in the early 1900s and late 1800s the trade union movement began to protect the people who were working in those factories where there were enormous concentrations of wealth that was not diffused to the entire society. The trade union movement began the development of the possibility that industrial workers could support a middle class lifestyle. The reason this country is the greatest country on earth, and is a stable democracy is that there's an enormous - and unfortunately shrinking - middle class and that middle class was created by (a) the emergence of small business and (b) more importantly the trade union movement.
--snip-- much more

[no name no slogan]

33. But according to the rules of the WTO

we cannot "revise" NAFTA unless we want to pay economic penalties for putting up barriers to "free trade".

I don't think a lot of people realize this-- we can't just go in and change a couple things on these agreements because we later changed our minds.

Most people don't realize that the WTO, WHICH WE SIGNED, has provisions in it that supercede the sovereign authority of national governments. In other words, big, unelected, undemocratic multi-national corporations have more rights in dictating trade policy than do the citizens of their country.

These agreements are flawed to the core, and should be scrapped at the first available chance. We need strong multilateral trade agreements that not only protect our workers, but protect the workers of other countries and ensure the safety and well-being of EVERYONE.

"Tweaking" NAFTA is like slapping a band-aid on your severed hand-- it's too little, too late.

[rdfi-defi]

58. "band-aid on your severed hand--it's too little, too late"

i agree, the labor situation is not even a situation it is a war. all the canidates say they want to protect jobs and workers' rights. well what is the plan? to acomplish these goals you have to end usa involvement in wto and nafta there is no getting around it. not just for jobs but big issues like capital flight, which our current form of international trade facilitates. the same goes for taft-hartley, the long shoremens' union in long beach ca got their legs cut right out from under them because they actualy had leverage. wto, nafta, taft-hartley all have to go, and i see only one candidate addressing these issues for working/poor people.

[MrSoundAndVision]

34. Hey I didn't say he was inept...

I just said that he sort of dodged the question (do you know the instance I'm talking about) of how he would handle NAFTA and the WTO, and it sparked my interest in Kucinich. I didn't say Dean was a liar.

Now, I think Dean sees himself as a sort of revolutionary and I know how intoxicating that thought can be for he and his followers, but I wish to submit that it is Kucinich who is truly revolutionary and against the establishment, and that Dean's view of the revolution is narrow.

[JohnKleeb]

35. I have to agree on what sparked my interest

I am big on labor rights and when I found out that Kucinich wanted to repeal Taft-Hartley I was like WOW.

[snoochie]

37. Shocking, isn't it?

FAIR support for labor, instead of the kind that's slanted toward the employer's side?

'bout time! :)

[JohnKleeb]

38. I was like wholly shit dude

I read about Taft-Hartley and was sickened, and saddened that as the party moved center more and more they abandoned that goal.

[no name no slogan]

30. Welcome!

I was also a Dean supporter, mainly because of his anti-war statement and his "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party" line.

As a native Minnesotan, I was hoping for a Wellstone-like candidate to support in 2004. Originally, I thought it was Dean, until I read his platform and his positions, and his record in Vermont.

Yes, Dean resembled a Minnesota politician alright. But it wasn't Wellstone.

It was Jesse Ventura.

Their positions are very similar: socially liberal, economically conservative. They tap into the white middle-class "anger" that's so prevalent today-- the "rage" that so many are feeling since the recession started hitting the middle class and not just "those people" who've always worked two jobs just to keep the phone from getting cut off AGAIN.

Dennis is the difference. Not only does he have the right positions, he has the EXPERIENCE of defeating entrenched Republicans and not sacrificing his beliefs for political expediency.

ONWARD. TO THE WHITE HOUSE!

[JohnKleeb]

32. It wasnt that for me

I wasnt really for him really, he was my pick at the time after Gore dropped out. I forget exactly how I supported Kucinich originally.

[killbotfactory]

11. No, thanks.

I have stock in space-based mind-control weapon manufacturers.

[no name no slogan]

39. Better watch your arse then...

because the military has been experimenting with mind-control devices and technology since the 1960s. Hell, even LSD was originally devised as a drug that would get confessions out of prisoners.

The government is literally pissing away billions of our tax dollars each year on space-based defense systems like the ballistic missile shield (aka "Star Wars"), while our schools crumble and our infrastructure collapses.

I would much prefer that the money this program has been getting, UNINTERRUPTED since Reagan's time, be diverted to rebuild this country after two decades of neglect.

Will YOUR candidate cut "Star Wars"? Will he REDUCE the bloated runaway "defense" budget?

I didn't think so.

BTW cool picture :hi:

[killbotfactory]

46. Oh don't worry, you and Kucinich will come around... eventually

*evil laughter*

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

47. Will YOUR candidate cut "Star Wars"?

Actually, yes. I just heard him speak tonight at a fundraiser in town, and he specifically said he didn't like Star Wars because it doesn't work.

[Egnever]

48. Actually I talked to dean tonight

And he said he was absolutely against that star wars crap and he doesnt believe in the new nuclear weapons programs either. He said that he thought it was rediculous for us to try to hold other to a nuclear proliferation treaty while we worked on developing mini nukes ourself.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

51. SO DEAN IS AGAINST SPACE WEAPONS!!!!???

What a psycho...!

:eyes:

TWL

EDIT:Egnever this wasn't directed at you, but at the starter of this subthread who seems to be hung up on one of the many issues that Kucinich is on top of. :)

[killbotfactory]

60. Look out for chemtrails and strap on the tinfoil....

You're on "The List"

Bwahahahahahahah....

[DuctapeFatwa]

13. Kucinich has said publicly that lives are more important than money

He does not seem to be a criminal, war or otherwise, and he has hinted that he is not enthusiastic about paying Ariel Sharon to commit more war crimes.

I don't know how he ever got to Congress, he is clearly neither suited nor qualified for US politics.

[MrSoundAndVision]

16. Well let's let the qualifications change then brother

And encourage it with optimism in this wonderful process that Thomas Jefferson and Co. had the intelligence to point out (with the exception that the media in this country should be gov't subsidized and independent like the BBC). But we could easily fix that with the proper elected officials.

[sandnsea]

20. I'm in Oregon and if my guy doesn't need me

Your guy absolutely gets the vote. Decided that months ago. But if Oregon counts or it's a close race, I will have to go with the candidate who is most likely to gain national support and beat Bush.

[MrSoundAndVision]

23. But!

Don't you see the pragmatic approach is the media's approach. That, in fact, when one thinks about it, Kucinich is the one that should stand before Bush and expose him as at least a political criminal. Kucinich is the candidate who will absolutely beat Bush, especially one-on-one.

[snoochie]

36. That's what I thought, too...

the pragmatism is all being directed at us by the media, with their worship of daily polls.

I like your idea. :)

[sandnsea]

50. It's not pragmatism for me

Kucinich would get my vote regardless over a couple of candidates. But there are a couple of others who I would vote for ahead of Kucinich. My candidate for instance. That's what I meant. If it's close between a candidate I want and one I don't want, my candidate of choice gets my vote. But if my candidate of choice way ahead, way behind, or the primaries are decided or there's a couple of losers in the finals, then Kucinich gets my vote. Kucinich really is not my first choice. But there are lots of scenarios where he would absolutely get my vote. I would like everybody to think about voting for Kucinich to support his ideals if it's practical in their situation. I know you want people to go in there and vote Kucinich like a real Democrat should. I want people to think about voting for Kucinich as an expression of support if it's feasible at the time of their vote.

[Sean Reynolds]

31. I am sorry, but I will continue to support Howard Dean.

Back when I was looking over the candidates it came down to both Kucinich and Dean. Both were polling at about the same spot (2%), but I went with Dean for his proven record on gay rights; health care; a balanced budget; and a strong economy. Today I stand prouder than ever with the Dean campaign. I have watched him grow not only as a person, but as the future of this party. I respect Kucinich and would support him with a beaming smile if he were to win the nomination. But when it comes down to it, I like Dean more. It isn't about being the nomination, it isn't about whether or not he'll win in the general election. It's about the fact no other candidate has EVER touched me in a way that Dean has.

Are there issues where Dean and I do not agree on? You bet ya! But no candidate shares 100% of my views and I don't expect one to ever do so.

I urge every person here at DU to vote their heart, whether that be Kucinich, Kerry, Dean, or Edwards. This isn't an issue about who is right and who is wrong. This is an issue of personal beliefs. Kucinich's virtues to you may be his weakness to another person.

Do I believe we need more men like Kucinich? No doubt. But that doesn't mean my support for Howard Dean is any less. I will vote for the candidate that in my opinion has a clear, intelligent strategy. That candidate is Howard Dean.

[MrSoundAndVision]

40. Well I'm not trying to choose your candidate for you...

I am saying that Dean isn't clear enough of his positions to be a genuine candidate for the people. By being so vague in mant of his positions he is essentially saying he is for sale. Half of the point of Kucinich saying he would repeal NAFTA is to get other candidates to say they will do so too when elected: the true selfless patriot (not anthing like Mel Gibson). So please pay more attention to this.

[Sean Reynolds]

41. I don't think he's been too vague at all.

I've been paying attention to each issue Dean has taken since I began supporting him in February. The ONLY issue I think Dean is vague on, which every other candidate is too, is that of the Iraq War and what he'd do to bring the UN into the mix.

[MrSoundAndVision]

43. Good Night All

We'll talk tomorrow. Try to bring a friend tomorrow and with the exponential hope of a sick society we can bring change together.

Charles

[drfemoe]

42. I do like

DK ... :think: Wouldn't he be great as the Secretary of Homeland Peace ??

Or the Peace Advisor?

[JohnKleeb]

44. Well if President "name here" approves his department idea sure

Cant go wrong with a guy who got the Gandhi award imo.

[MrSoundAndVision]

45. How about boss of the Peace Secretary?

G'Night.

[Egnever]

49. Wow that was a great post

You could almost exchange names there wiuth any of the candidates and that post would still be great.

I happen to agree with the current version but I love the tone of the whole thing and could see that aplying to many different supporters of candidates.

[OKNancy]

52. But I don't like DK

I don't think he would make a good president. That's what it all boils down to in the end.

[CMT]

53. I like DK

and if I supported him for the nomination I would do so proudly and publically and not just inside the ballot box on election day. But I like Howard Dean too and am supporting him publically, proudly, and in the ballot box.

[LWolf]

54. It will happen for some people this way.

Turn back the media's choice...love it!

:yourock:

[xJlM]

55. Why should the media and big corporations make our choice?

I think the American people should have a choice in our elections, yet this is the only time in my memory when the choice I see is one palatable to me.

Don't get me wrong, I own guns and I don't like DK's stand on them, but that's a minor thing next to equal standards for workers the world over and universal health care for all American citizens. We actually have a chance to join the civilized part of the world where education and healthcare are a birthright.

And I like waffles, too, for you Dean supporters chiming in. Waffles go great with Vermont maple syrup, so maybe that's what the good Dr. nexts to work on next.

[MrSoundAndVision]

56. Yeah I'm not sure on the gun issue either

But, as you say that's not as important as all of the other life and death issues in this counry. It's not like he's going to ban guns and make us all vegans.

I think that Bowling for Columbine accurately pointed out that it is not the guns that are the problem, it is he fear. Media made. Administratively made.

But, I guess one needs constituents to get elected. Frankly, if Dennis Kucinich agreed with everything I agree with then I guess he'd be me.

[MrSoundAndVision]

57. And Kucinich is addressing fear

It is one of the major aspects of his campaign.

http://www.kucinich.us/

You know one of the things I REALLY find annoying about many of the candidates, their respective constant references to Bill Clinton. I mean, these candidates should say what they will do, not categorically agree with Clinton.

[Demobrat]

59. This is just sad.

Kucinich isn't catching on because of Kucinich. It's not Dean's fault because he stole the antiwar vote that rightfully belongs to Dennis. It's not the media's doing that Dean's campaign caught fire. And Dean supporters are not Dean supporters because they are stupid or brainwashed. You guys just need to realize that Dennis is not ready for prime time.

[killbotfactory]

62. No, actually it's my connections to the mind-control satellite cartel

They've been turning people away from Kucinich and towards Dean.

[Demobrat]

63. In that case do us all a favor

and turn your mind-boggling powers on some W supporters.

[killbotfactory]

64. Bush is doing a good job of that on his own...

No need to waste the resources.

[genius]

61. Good post.

Come on everyone. Don't you want to tell your children that you were one of the good guys?