Dean, a Cheap SOB

[LuminousX]

The debate in Detroit really didn't get much exposure, but there are some interesting side points regarding it as culled from this report from The American Prospect.

Most reporters and many of the candidates and their staffs stayed in the fortress-like Detroit Marriott Renaissance Center, whose 72 stories offer guests a spectacular view of Canada. An exception was former Gov. Howard Dean (D-Vt.), who recently described himself to an MSNBC reporter as "the cheapest SOB you have ever met"; his debate staff stayed in a budget hotel a half-hour's ride from the Fox Theatre, where the debate took place. Dean's staffers got a look at the realities of life in the low-rent neighborhoods of urban America when a transformer blew Sunday morning, knocking out electricity at the hotel and forcing staffers to take cold baths and eat breakfast in the dark before heading out into a drizzly, overcast day.

Nice to see Dean burning through the money he's collected.

Another interesting point comes at Kucinich's misstatement regarding the number of murders in Detroit and how that was perceived by one Detroit reporter: "I think not only was it grossly inaccurate, but he never really came back and cleaned it up, and then ended the debate with a message of despair."

[alexwcovington]

1. A down-to-earth fellow

Who spends money wisely.

[LuminousX]

2. You have to ask yourself,

who got a better view of what Detroit was like?

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MoonAndSun]

5. Great post, eissa.....

and welcome to DU from another Dean supporter! :hi:

[LuminousX]

6. Who is that in response to?

Dean describes himself as a cheap SOB and the article states he is the only candidate who got a real feel of what it was like to live in Detroit's less than privileged neighborhoods.

So who is to get real?

on edit:

Just trying to figure out how you got a negative impression of what was said. Alex said Dean spends money wisely and I sarcastically commented in the original post that he was 'burning through his money' because it is well documented that he has a low burn rate and a lot of money coming in which means that he's dollars are going further. Again, that is a good thing.

[eissa]

13. I may have read too much

into your line about Dean burning through his money. I'm a little trigger-happy today after reading my fill of the constant attacks on Dean, by both repugs and our own. So if it was not meant as an attack, I certainly apologize.

And hello MoonandSun :hi:

[Cha]

19. I know what you mean about "trigger happy"..

that happened to me, too! Because of the same reason!
Welcome to DU, eissa!

[MrSoundAndVision]

4. Oh come on Kucinich just mixed up a number

The media (as you well know) is out to get him. Here's what he meant:

35 killed in September in Detroit
300 killed so far this year in Detroit
17,000 killed since 1972 in Detroit, this latter statistic is proportionately higher than the number of people in the Lebonese civil war in the 80's.

Thus, America (by association with Detroit) has some problems, and could use a Department of Peace.

Bear in mind, this is the same reporter who said that Dennis Kucinich's proposal was to change the name of the Department of Defense to the Department of Peace: what a belligerant thing to say.

Check out the story on Detroit at http://www.wsws.org

[Padraig18]

9. The media is 'out to get him'?

Well, 98-99% of Democrats must be 'out to get him', too, because they don't care for him either...

[LuminousX]

10. LOL

[Padraig18]

11. I'm not normally that blunt...

... but I'm tired of the whining from the DK camp about why it's 'everyone else's fault' that DK is at the absolute bottom of the polls. Why is there such massive *denial* about the mere possibility that the problem could be DK himself? :shrug:

[LuminousX]

14. This is why I keep suggesting DK needs a revamp

and really think about if he wants to continue to become a footnote in history books or become apart of something better.

I guess what I strongly hope for is Kucinich to campaign up to Iowa and then after losing in Iowa, dropping out before New Hampshire and continue to speak on issues. He'll save himself money and through good politicking get himself in the next administration.

[Padraig18]

15. I want him to stay in Congress

We're gonna need every dem seat we have PLUS some in order to wrest the House away from DeLay and his evil minions. If he's as popular as they say (and i believe that he is), ffs, Dennis, STAY THERE!

We need 'open' seats like the Venus DeMilo needs a 3rd boob... :eyes:

[foo_bar]

24. DK needs a punk haircut

and an endorsement from Henry Rollins.

[Upfront]

18. Agreed

He should give it up, he has no hope. Sorry supporters, but it is true.

[Jim Sagle]

12. They'll have a tough time getting him. No one can FIND him.

:-)

[redqueen]

26. That would make sense, if....

98 - 99% of Democrats knew who the heck he was, or what he stands for.

Oh wait, I forgot, it's really still all his fault that nobody knows who he is or what he stands for, because if he reeeeally cared about implementing change for people instead of the powerful, he'd kiss the media's ass so they'd give him some fair coverage.
:crazy:

Will somebody wake me up when this finally sinks in with people? :eyes:

[Padraig18]

27. Who said life is fair?

If someone told you that, they lied.

[redqueen]

30. God I used to hear this from my DAD all the time.

This isn't about breaking up a fight between two kids, Padraig18.

This is about the next leader of the country.

It's your perogative if you wish to refuse to recognize the stakes big media has in this election.

[Padraig18]

32. What I'm saying is...

... that it's entirely possible that DK's message isn't the 'barn burner' that DK supporters think it is. Doesn't mean it's a BAD message, or that DK is a bad guy, just that it's not 'resonating' with the electorate.:shrug:

[helleborient]

49. How many national debates does DK need...

For Democrats to know who he is???

I know who he is and I don't support him for President.

I think he is a great congress man, but I don't want him for President.

It has absoultely zero to do with knowledge about his points of view...I've found plenty of media to help me with that, and I suspect many other Democrats have as well.

I, like others, am starting to resent insinuations that we are stupid.

I don't insinuate that about Kucinich supporters, and I and others don't deserve it from them.

Prove to me Dennis can move his progressive ideas forward in legislation...I see nothing from the Kucinich campaign about that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. Yeah, as far as the New York Times is concerned

He doesn't exist. They will have lengthy articles about health care or the Iraq War, two of his main issues, and they won't even mention him.

This is before a single vote has been cast anywhere. It is pretty arrogant of them (and anyone else) to decide who the winners and losers are on the basis of polls of "likely voters" when Dennis is bringing in lots of unlikely voters.

I will remind you that just a few months ago, "likely voters" overwhelmingly chose Lieberman in the polls. Why? He was the only one whose name they recognized. It couldn't have been because of his scintillating personality or well-defined stands on the issues. It was simple name recognition. When other candidates began to get coverage, Liebermans' standings slipped.

And Dennis cannot build name recognition if the media act as if he doesn't exist.

[raysr]

55. DK

The only candidates that get any attention are the controversial ones. The ones most likely to get beat up. How can anyone argue with what DK's stance is? It's right on. "nothing here"."No need to talk to me, same as talking to you" (Bob Dylan)

[JohnKleeb]

36. Funny you should say that being that the polls dont add up to 100%

loads of undecideds and I think there is some credit to the media factor, look I read the damned paper and hes seldom mentioned. I am not sure really but I keep on feeling as if the party is growning to moderate for me, sad reallly being how long my family has been in the party, oh well. Sigh at least I know what I am doing is right.

[Padraig18]

37. And I urge you to support him, John.

That's what the primaries are about.

[JohnKleeb]

38. Already done

I will stay in the party, well actually I am too young to have officially joined, but sigh the party is nothing like it used to be. I am just pissed that everyone thinks we are all greens, and that we wont vote for the eventual nominee, grow the hell up people.

[Padraig18]

39. I know you'll stay with the party.

But one thing people must realize--- not just DK supporters, but everyone here--- is that 'the party' is not some insect preserved in amber; it is dyanmic and ever-changing, adaptable to new situations and challenges. The people define what our party is--- what a Democrat is--- not some ideology from any past era, real or imagined.

[JohnKleeb]

40. Well yea I just miss the party I read about

I dont like the centrism and al. Ah sigh. Well maybe it will change. We need a unity message, I can accept ABB pretty much but I dont know about others.

[Padraig18]

41. Well, as Ben Franklin said:

"We must hang together, for we shall most assuredly hang separately."

It's always been a dynamic party, the party of change. The party that was Andrew Jackson's was dead when Grover Cleveland was President, and that party was dead when Wilson served, and THAT party was dead when FDR was elected, and FDR's party was dead when JFK, and LBJ and HHH ran, etc. . It's never static, and it never will be.

Nostalgia is a fine thing, in its place, but action and unity serves us better in circumstances such as those in which we find ourselves. Centrist or not, there IS a *huge* difference between us and them, even so. :)

[JohnKleeb]

43. Still I miss that party

I dont like the new democrat like idealogy, I am sorry but I dont like it. Of course there is a difference between us and them.

[helleborient]

50. Are you insinuating that what the rest of us are doing is wrong?

Exactly what I'm getting tired of from Kucinich supporters.

You are completely right to support your candidate, and I am completely right to support mine, in my opinion.

[diamondsoul]

57. No he isn't.

You're copmpletely entitled to and accepted for supporting the candidate who resonates with your views.

What we want to know is why the venom for those of us who support Kucinich because he fits that description for us, and you have been a harbinger and bringer of venom at times.*note the AT TIMES part, please.*

BTW, I have no personal problem with you at all, except for the occasion when you generalize as you've done here "Kucinich supporters" in general,IOW, ALL or MOST of us.

[helleborient]

61. Yes, you're right....

I should direct my venom more specifically at the Kucinich supporter who claims Dennis' poll standing is a media conspiracy.

I'm sorry.

I do think it is disingenuous to negate that possibly Howard Dean's campaign has worked hard for media coverage - he's been at the campaign longer (at a time when many said it was way too early to even think about the presidential campaign) than any other candidate.

I also feel that Dean candidates are frequently targeted as ignorant because we don't support either Dennis or John Kerry. That is unfair as well. I, for one, read all of the other candidates statements submitted to moveon.org and have followed them reasonably closely ever since. I have looked up reference material in the library on both John Kerry and Dennis Kucinich, in addition to Howard Dean. I've seen Howard Dean in person...the only candidate other than John Edwards who has come within reasonable travel distance so far. I am informed.

I believe that Dennis' vision is impractical in many ways and would shut out of the system a very large portion of our populace who genuinely disagree with his vision for the country.

I do get frustrated by comments such as "at least I know I'm doing what is right"....which seems to imply somebody isn't doing what is right. That's what upset me in the post above.

[JohnKleeb]

60. No not at all

[helleborient]

63. Thank you, John...

But I would hope I could be forgiven for reading this statement

"Sigh at least I know what I am doing is right."

And thinking there was an implication about others.

[JohnKleeb]

64. No there wasnt

I didnt mean to imply that, I am sorry, everyone is doing what they feel is right, I dont know what I meant in retrospect but I am sorry if I offended I mean like I knew what I was doing was right and thats a good feeling. I am not mad at you at all, I said something stupid. Still I just wish people realized that idealism isnt a bad thing at all, we all are in a way idealists.

[Desertrose]

20. How can you correct something when you don't get a chance to speak?

They cut Dennis off & really the moderator could have asked him rather than basically state that he lied with out first giving him the option of correcting his statement- they immediately put him on the defensive and that shows such a collossal lack of respect. Say what you want- Dennis Kucinich is a working Congressman and deserves a modicum of respect.

All I ask you Dean supporters is to be fair...how would you feel if your candidate got the same treatment DK was getting from the media?? Can't you imagine you might be a bit upset if everyone ignored Dean, put his ideas down as crazy ( even tho it is the same ideas the dems used to support before they got "corporatized"?) and constantly marginalized him? I'm surprised how many people buy inot the spin....

I have noticed how many of you get upset when someone mentions something that doesn't praise Dean the way you feel he deserves it...
SO.... why not cut those who support a different candidate a little slack already...sooner or later some of us will have to make nice with the rest of us and why make it harder by insulting each other. we need to try to work together for the common good- its not about being right...its about doing the best we can.....and not killingeach other in the process to evidently ...


Peace
DR

[Padraig18]

21. Raise some money and buy time, DR.

That's what the rest of the candidates have to do. :shrug:

[redqueen]

28. You think Dean & Kerry pay for all this media attention?

Clark pays news orgs to cover his candidacy?

Nope.

Try again.

[Padraig18]

29. It's a conspiracy, huh?

Do you know what sells air time? Interesting messages that resonate with the viewership. That's why they're getting air time, and DK isn't. The problem isn't 'the corporate media'--- it's DK.

[redqueen]

31. Well by your logic then,

the problem isn't with Bush's policies, it's with the Democratic party's policies. Their ideas just don't 'resonate'. :eyes:

:)

[Padraig18]

33. Actually...

... that IS part of the problem: we Democrats had/have forgotten we're the opposition party. Dean has made his case that he is of the opposition party, and America has responded.

[LuminousX]

35. Uh, Yes.

The Message is key. Bush spoke the language everyone wanted to hear. It did resonate. It defined the debate.

Dean's message resonates. It sounds good. It isn't idealistic, which makes people nervous that it can't be accomplished, and it isn't negative (at least entirely).

[diamondsoul]

59. "Interesting messages that resonate with the viewership."

Really, Padraig? Are you that gullible? I hadn't thought so but maybe I'm mistaken. What "sells air-time" is feel-good BS, and most especially support for the corporations that own media. Dean, and most of the rest are able to put that forth. Kucinich is not because he cannot pretend to support things he opposes- like propaganda.

Tell me you really think our dead soldiers are not "interesting" to our citizens? Tell me you think the factual numbers of our dead and wounded aren't "interesting" or "resonating" with the viewers? Can you honestly do that?

If so you're deluded and a victim/casualty of the propaganda machine.

Kucinich doesn't and won't ever support TNN, CNN, FOX and all the other jokes we call media. I won't either except when they decide to let him speak and be heard, TRULY HEARD! Are you so completely controlled by corporate media that you think they genuinely CARE what the populace wants to hear or know? Gimme a break here! They're full of the proverbial brown stuff and anyone with a working brain cell knows it. I credited you with one of those brain cells. Was I wrong?

[Padraig18]

65. I have many working brain cells.

I am not naive, gullible or a 'victim of the corporate media', either. DK's message is not resonating with America--- period. Unless he buys the time himself, he will have to play by whatever rules are set forth by those who OWN the time--- the networks.

The whole 'the reason DK is doing poorly is because of the coroporate media' meme is growing tiresome; perhaps it is time to quit blaming the medium and instead, wonder if the message or the messenger need reworking.

[KaraokeKarlton]

48. Kucinich is just too far left for most of America

That's the reality and at some point, his supporters here are going to have to accept and realize that. He tends to come off as pretty darn radical and he's not getting the attention because what he's selling, the majority of the American people aren't interested in buying. Publicity and media is a supply and demand situation. Dean has gotten all the media attention because he stirs the interest of a very broad base of people. He's dynamic to a lot of people whereas Kucinich is only dynamic to a relatively small populace of the country. If there was a demand for Kucinich's voice by the people, he would have every opportunity available to him to share his vision with people through the media. If he were as great a candidate for everyone as he is for you, he would have the majority of DU supporting him, because people here are informed. However, he doesn't even have the majority of support on a fairly liberal discussion forum. If he's not getting that here, he stands no chance of getting that across the country. On another note...he NEEDS to stay right where he is because that is where the country most needs him. People like Kucinich help protect Americans from those lawmakers who would just as soon sell their souls (and betray the American people in the process) just because they "owe" someone something. I wish he would drop out and focus on making sure he keeps the job he has. He is SO important where he's at right now because he keeps the rest of them honest. This country can't afford to lose him in that position.

[Desertrose]

42. such a smart ass answer, Padraig....really none of your damn business

....but I have helped DK raise money here in my town and PHX fundraisers even donated quite a bit of my art for auction and have sent what I can afford to the campaign....not sure why you feel so smug about things you know nothing of.....

DK is raising money...maybe not as much as Dean & others...but there is a lot more than raising campaign funds...unfortunately in some people's world everything seems to be about money....and don't bother with the BS retort that money runs everything...that is obviously why you don't get Dennis...

Peace
DR

[JohnKleeb]

44. Thats true DR

You do a good job for DK, DR I wish I could do more but school and the proablity of a getting a job restrict me. We may not have the money but above all we have heart, btw remember what Ive been saying, dont do what you wouldnt want done in return.

[Desertrose]

46. Thanks John, but I don't have big bucks to give...I wish...

(I'm an artist doing my own small business)....but I give a lot of time & energy and have mananged to senda bit of $$ when I can. Easier for me to donate my art work which I've done for a few towns here in AZ...managed to get an awesome band to play at the post Phx debate...

I like DKs events because its a win/win for everyone when you can help your friends to get a little l PR too!

John- don't underestimate yourself my friend...you do SO much good posting here on DU to stand up for Dennis and cheer us all on when we need it. You are doing really good stuff here and probably with everyone you talk to in the non DU world too!!

Thank you and keep up all the great work you are doing!!

Peace
DR

[Padraig18]

47. You completely misunderstood what I wrote.

I didn't mention or ask about your personal fund-raising efforts on DK's behalf; what I *said* was that DK's campaign needs to raise money to buy air time, just like every other campaign is having to do. Mass media is the only way DK will obtain enough exposure to draw the type and quantity of support he will need to have if he is to succeed in his quest for the nomination.

It is not an 'attack' on either DK or his supporters to point out objective truths, even if they are some times unpleasant.

[Demobrat]

7. At least they had beds this time

Dean and his staffers have been known to sack out on airport couches.

[killbotfactory]

8. Dean has gotten the most for his money.

The biggest spenders of the democratic race so far:

Howard Dean (D)
$12,951,593

John Kerry (D)
$12,098,642

[Cha]

16. Glad to see more of Dean keeping it Real!

Dean's got that "saving a buck gene" in him that will continuely help us down the road! :D

[Rose Siding]

45. I'm budgeting my next donation

As a contributor, I sure do appreciate seeing that Dean and his campaign are really paying attention to how the money is spent. This goes a long way with me.

[kwolf68]

17. Good Job Dean

While I dump on Dean when the situation is appropriate, I also give him props when it is.

I think this sorta details what people like about Dean. He's not seemingly cut from the same cloth as some politicians.

The fact he's a "Cheap SOB" if fine by me...it shows he is pragmatic with his money. On this....KUDOS to the good Doc.

[U2Shark]

22. A half-hour from the Fox??

A half-hour ride from the Fox and chances are you're not in Detroit proper anymore. If he took the highway he probably ended up in Southfield. If he went up Woodward maybe he stayed at some no-tel motel in Ferndale (yeah right). In any case, I seriously doubt that Dean stayed in a place where he could "get a look at the realities of life in the low-rent neighborhoods of urban America".

And actually the Ren Cen is a lot less fortress-like nowadays. And they offer rooms that over look Michigan too. Jeebus this article pisses me off.

[LuminousX]

23. I think the lack of electricity

and the fact he had to drive to the theater were the things that let him 'get a look at ... low-rent neighborhoods of urban America.'

I've driven around Detroit some and you can't avoid the low-rent neighborhoods.

[Cha]

25. It doesn't matter if you "seriously doubt" it or not...

I'm taking the article at face value and I think the Dean campaign
is better off for the experience.

[dofus]

34. As recently as May

Dean was flying commercially and staying in supporters' houses, not in hotels of any kind.

[beyurslf]

52. Dean's media attention is

directly tied to his rise in the polls and not the other way around. Last Oct he wasn't getting free media. He was out on the ground stumping, raising money, and getting people involved. His message created the support which led to more media attention. D's message hasn't taken off. Whether it is the candidate or the message, I won't try to say for everyone. I know I like his ideas, but he personally doesn't inspire me as presidential. Whatever the reason, those low poll numbers and lack of major following is why he doesn't get the free media attention.

[Desertrose]

53. I totally disagree.....

the media does not want to hear what Dennis has to say ...plain & simple-so they either marginalize him or they exclude him.



Peace
DR

[LuminousX]

54. "does not want to hear"

And why is that?

Why would they want to hear from Dean or Kerry but not DK? The media is stupid and lazy. It is the campaign's job to do 80% of the work for the media. Dennis won't even appear on Hardball when asked.

[redqueen]

58. Yeah, if only Dennis was principled enough to take

so much time off from his job, and traipse around the country mouthing platitudes.

sorry, but I'm getting really tired of this 'dean worked hard that's why he's getting coverage' crap.

he got seed money from top executives at an energy company, and took so much time off from his JOB that ... well we all know the story. becoming president is apparently more important than doing the job you were elected to do.

i'm actually GLAD Kucinich has some sense of right and wrong, and tries not to miss votes so he can pander for money and attention from the craven whore press.

and most of dean's rhetoric isn't straightforward plans, it's just vaguely worded platitudes. i'll pass on the pandering, thanks just the same.

[diamondsoul]

56. Hi, LuminousX.

I read through the thread and there are a couple of things I'd like to address, not all of which are related to your seeder post, so I hope you'll forgive me if I move off the subject a bit.

"An exception was former Gov. Howard Dean (D-Vt.), who recently described himself to an MSNBC reporter as "the cheapest SOB you have ever met"; his debate staff stayed in a budget hotel a half-hour's ride from the Fox Theatre, where the debate took place. Dean's staffers got a look at the realities of life in the low-rent neighborhoods of urban America when a transformer blew Sunday morning, knocking out electricity at the hotel and forcing staffers to take cold baths and eat breakfast in the dark before heading out into a drizzly, overcast day."

Um, may I point out the article says "his debate staff" and repeatedly specifies STAFF as opposed to Dr. Dean himself? No offense intended, I just think it's important for people to be aware there is a vast difference between campaign staff and the candidate him/herself. At no point, after reading the entire article, does anyone say where Dr. Dean personally stayed. Basically your initial post suggest that because Dr. Dean's staff stayed at less than stellar hotels he somehow absorbed the information they got firsthand. Now granted this is part of how campaigns work-staffers reporting personal experience to candidates, I really, REALLY would like to know where Dr. Dean stayed.

I must ALSO admit there is a valid argument to the Candidate having some of what the poorest among us call "luxuries" such as hot water for bathing, good food and a comfortable bed, for the sake of their presentation in the debates. For instance, Congressman Kucinich is welcome to the run of my home, to borrow my queen sized bed for a night or two, use my hot water, and be fed well with his own preference of vegan recipes. He would be treated as a king in my home, and at absolutely NO cost to the campaign. I must wonder if Howard Dean is content to accept middle/lower-middle/lower-class accomodations.

Once again, no offense is intended to Dean supporters but for me as an outsider this article raises a question as to his perception of the classes of people in this country. He's a "self-described cheap SOB". Ok, I've known thousands of them in my 35+ years of life. The question is is his frugality applied equally across the board or only to his "staff"....or for the elite-minded, the "servant class"? Answer me that and we can discuss this. At the moment it appears, based on the article, Dr. Dean thinks it's acceptable for his staff to be treated as lowly servants while he does who knows what for accomodations.

*changed my mind, I'll reply to individual posts since this one came out so long.

[LuminousX]

62. Dean's Frugalness

is well known about himself. His inability to get rid of old suits, his unwillingness to take shirts to the dry cleaners, even when they say 'dry clean only', etc.

Is it true HE (and his campaign) is the main source of these frugal stories? Yes. As I've discussed in other threads, Dean seized upon the tag, Frugal for himself and made sure the press and everyone knows about it. So when his burn rate in his finances is reported and it is small in comparison to his intake, the press says it is a sign of his frugalness. When he gets four days of coverage for running 1 ad in Texas in August... that is called Frugal as well.

Now, I don't know where Dean stayed and I will attempt to find out as I am curious. I can't imagine he'd be too far away from his staff, though, but he may not have had to take a cold shower that morning. I would prefer that he did, but I can't have everything.

As another point of reference, Dean did stay are supporters houses in the beginning.