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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 01:45 PM
Original message
NY Times showed Kerry does not do "waffling" - but Media Whores ABC lie &
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 01:46 PM by papau
http://www.dailynorthwestern.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/10/30/3fa0bdef49b37

Like Stephanopoulos continue to say that he does waffle and or did waffle on the war.

Why the hell are we letting a media myth develope - like they did to Gore and Invent the internet - something he never said - but to this day is "media whore truth".

From the above article:ABC's Stephanopoulos said "he expects the campaign will occur during a good economy and that national security will be the biggest campaign issue, something Democrats classically have had a hard time with. He was especially discouraged by front-runner Howard Dean's campaign based on antiwar outrage, believing Americans will prefer Republican optimism. He said Gen. Wesley Clark has lost support because he lacks a defined platform, Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., was hurt by waffling on the war issue; Rep. Dick Gephardt, D-Mo., is seen as too old; and Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C., is too young. He added that Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., originally polled high but hasn't been able to excite Democrats or raise money."

But the New York Times - the paper of record -says ABC IS FULL OF SHIT WHEN IT SAYS KERRY WAFFLES ABOUT THE WAR. from the Times "Though his emphasis has shifted, Mr. Kerry's writings, statements and speeches from before the vote on using force through now do show consistent underpinnings. He argued for using the threat of force to support the weapons-inspection program, but only using force when all other options were exhausted. And he often warned that the greatest challenge would be in stabilizing postwar Iraq.

In the interview, Mr. Kerry said that he was frustrated at the way the debate about Iraq was playing out and that he believed that Dr. Dean had escaped scrutiny. He said Dr. Dean had criticized him and others who accepted the administration's assertions that Iraq had unconventional weapons, although Dr. Dean himself had previously said he believed Iraq had such weapons.

And he said Dr. Dean had expressed support for the same alternate Iraq resolution that Mr. Kerry and many other Democrats had preferred. It would have allowed Mr. Bush to go to war without further United Nations or Congressional approval, though it would have given him somewhat less latitude. That proposal never came up for a vote."

http://nytimes.com/2003/10/24/politics/campaigns/24KERR.html?pagewanted=2

We need to get on the media whores now before they start in making up hurt the Dem myths again - and then treating their lies like it was truth.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kick.
:kick:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's been an overused meme that MWO even chided Democrats who
used it for political gain.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sorry, I think he waffled.
I don't understand how he can say that Bush could already invade so he only voted for the IWR to get him to go to the UN, when it didn't even require that, and then later say he only voted to give Bush the threat of force against Iraq so that Iraq would comply, when, according to Kerry, Bush already had that threat before the IWR.

I also don't understand how he could go from saying war must be a last resort, let inspections continue, and then back the invasion despite Bush cutting short inspections and failing at diplomacy, and then, according to Kerry, rushing to war.
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Remember Homeland Security and the 2002 elections?
The Republicans only put forth the Homeland Security bill that had the horrid parts for organized labor. The Dems in congress were against those provisions. The Republicans painted it as Dems being "against" Homeland Security.

Unfortunately, the Dems didn't get to pick and choose which resolution was going to be put forth for a vote. They tried. They failed. The final vote, presented as giving the President a strong hand in negotiations with the United Nations, though flawed, was a mechanism to "hold Saddam accountable".
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. It's not just his war vote
It's his changing justifications for why he voted.

He said war must be a last resort, but backed the war depsite Bush's rush to war, cutting short inspections, and failing miserably in diplomacy.
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DJcairo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Your timeline is all wrong
Comeon man.
The IWR vote was in October. Bush used the resolution to show the UN that America would go it alone if they didn't act, which they did, voting unanimously to send inspectors back. At that moment, things were progressing the way they should, the president had Congressional approval but showed that he would seek international support. Well, then, in December-January when it was clear that the inspectors weren't finding much Bush shocked the world by suggesting he would go to war anyway. This was not what Dems like Kerry had been lead to believe. It's important to remember that as cynical as we all are about Bush, Senators can't just call the President a liar when he's got 80% approval and there is a war on terrorism. They are obligated to take him at his word in times like that. In early January, Kerry attacked the administration for it's rush to war and urged more inspections which would have revealed that our intelligence was faulty and would have prevented war. Dean simply couldn't make up his mind. First he supported Biden-Lugar (very similar to what was actually voted on) then said there were WMD in Iraq, now says he "knew" there weren't and "I told you so".
Kerry had a plan to do this right, Dean had no plan and Bush did it wrong. Kerry is the candidate of the anti-war left. They cherish the memeory of his brave stand against Vietnam and remember what courage it took to confront Congress at that time. With a President Kerry in the WH does anyone doubt Iraq would have been handled differently? I rest my case.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. I thought I was pretty clear
Kerry, even though he said Bush could always use force without the IWR and therefor only voted to get Bush to the UN, now says he voted only to give Bush the threat of force to get Iraq to comply with the UN inspections.

Kerry, even though he admitted Bush rushed to war, and inspectors needed more time, and he had botched diplomacy, decided to back the war despite claiming war MUST be a last resort and we MUST NOT rush to war.

I think that's waffling.
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cindyw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Kerry did not support the war!
Every time this argument comes up, you say this and bring out that quote from the debate. Kerry may have been equivocating when he said that he supported the removal of Saddam Hussein, but he never said he supported the fact that we invaded.

In fact, he was the first candidate to speak out DURING the war.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Yes, he did.
I'm sorry, but he did.

Although he - like most senators - supported the war against Iraq, Mr Kerry has publicly expressed scepticism about the Bush administration's motives in pressing for the war and has criticised the failure to build a broad international coalition for the war.
BBC News Profile

Saddam Hussein made a grave error when he chose to make war with the ultimate weapons-inspections enforcement mechanism.
April 11th, 2003

That said, Saddam Hussein is a tyrant, truly the personification of evil. He has launched two wars of aggression against his neighbors, perpetrated environmental disaster, purposefully destabilized an entire region of the world, murdered tens of thousands of his own citizens, flouted the will of the United Nations and the world in acquiring weapons of mass destruction, conspired to assassinate the former President of the United States, and provided harbor and support to terrorists bent on destroying us and our friends.

From that perspective, regardless of the Administration's mishandling of so much of this situation, no President can defer the national security decisions of this country to the United Nations or any other multilateral institution or individual country.

Even having botched the diplomacy, it is the duty of any President, in the final analysis, to defend this nation and dispel the security threats - threats both immediate and longer term - against it.

Saddam Hussein has brought military action upon himself by refusing for twelve years to comply with the mandates of the United Nations. The brave and capable men and women of our armed forces and those who are with us will quickly , I know, remove him once and for all as a threat to his neighbors, to the world, and to his own people, and I support their doing so.
March 17th, 2003

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Senator Kerry, the first question goes to you. On March 19th, President Bush ordered General Tommy Franks to execute the invasion of Iraq. Was that the right decision at the right time?

SENATOR JOHN KERRY
George, I said at the time I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the President made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him.
May 4th, 2004

Still, Kerry said it is too early to conclude whether or not war with Iraq was justified. There needs to be a congressional investigation into U.S. intelligence on Iraq, he said.

June 18th, 2003

How could he not know if the war was justified if he didn't support it?

Kerry supported the war and said Wednesday, ''I'm glad Saddam Hussein is gone.'' But the Massachusetts senator has criticized the president's diplomatic efforts. He that concern Wednesday saying Bush had alienated U.S. allies in the runup to war.
June 18, 2003

Nevermind that you may disagree that voting for this:
The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to --
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

Is a vote for war.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. No matter how many times other people put those words in Kerry's mouth
He never did say he 'supported the war'. He did say he supported the decision to disarm Saddam Hussein. Much like Dean said he had "never been in doubt about the evil of Saddam Hussein or the necessity of removing his weapons of mass destruction."

You could quote a thousand different sources that tell us what Kerry's position was and/or is. But the one source that is definitive -- John Kerry -- never supported Bush's actions in Iraq, leading up to the invasion, during the invasion, or during the occupation.

MATTHEWS: Were we right to go to Iraq?
KERRY: Not the way the president did it. Clearly, no, because he didn’t plan for how to win the peace. He didn’t build the kind of coalition he said he would. He didn’t keep his promises to the American people.
He promised he would respect the U.N. He promised he would, in fact, build an international coalition and he promised he would go to war as a last resort. And, Chris, one of the great lessons I learned in Vietnam is the meaning of the words “last resort.”
I think the test for a president as to whether or not you send young men or women anywhere to fight is whether you can look in the eyes of parents-if you lose one of them-and say to those parents, I tried to do everything in my power to avoid this happening to your child. But we had no choice for the security of our country. I believe the president of the United States fails that test in Iraq.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/983074.asp
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Yes, you can take some of Kerry's comments and make him seem anti-Iraq war
Or you can take some others and he looks pro-Iraq war.

You know why?

BECAUSE HE WAFFLED
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Did somebody say waffles?




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MrPeepers Donating Member (311 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. He didn't waffle.
You and I have been through this one before. Senator John Forbes Kerry has never, at any point, supported the unilateral invasion of Iraq. He supported the removal of Hussein, he supported the troops, he did not support the Bush Administration. It's that simple.

Peepers
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 08:43 PM by killbotfactory
Saying he never supported the invasion because he never specifically said "invasion" is like saying Bush never tried to convince people Iraq was an imminent threat because he never said the word "imminent".
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MrPeepers Donating Member (311 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #49
54. Saying he supported the invasion
because you fail to see that someone can support the ousting of a ruthless dictator and not support the way he was ousted. It's not so simple as he never said "invasion." Yet, if he had said "invasion," you would say that was a valid means of demonstrating his belief that the invasion was correct. His NOT saying invasion, however, provides no proof. This makes no sense. John Kerry did not support a unilateral invasion of Iraq. It is as simple as that. Spin it however you like, manipulate his words, try to demonize him, but the fact remains that Kerry has never and will never support unilateral invasion.

Peepers
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Sure..
He voted to give the president authority to invade Iraq
He said he supported Bush "disarming" Saddam in response to a question about whether Bush was right to invade.
He said Saddam brought war upon himself, and "even Blix said he wasn't complying"
He wanted regime change.
Every news organization on earth says he supported the invasion, although he would have preferred Bush do it better.

Oh, but he didn't support the invasion.

Right.
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MrPeepers Donating Member (311 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. For the very last time.
He supported the removal of Hussein.

He did not support the way Bush went about it.

It's ALL THAT SIMPLE.

Saddam WASN'T fully cooperating. Is there any problem with wanting a crazed dictator "disarmed?" No. It's not very complicated.

Peepers
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. you can disagree with the way Bush went about it and still support
invasion.

Kerry thought Bush screwed up, but still supported the invasion.
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MrPeepers Donating Member (311 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. And the invasion would be?
The removal of Hussein. He supported an "invasion." He did not support a unilateral invasion. He supported a multilateral invasion, he supported an invasion of inspectors. He did not support Bush's invasion. He supported the end goal of Bush's invasion, not counting oil profits and sweetheart contracts that is, which was removing Hussein.

Peepers
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
52. Thank You So Much For The 3/17/03 Link!!!
I thought it was gone for good!

Here's some parts you missed:

"I find myself genuinely angered, saddened and dismayed by the situation in which this nation finds itself tonight. As the world's sole superpower in an increasingly hostile and dangerous world, our government's obligation to protect the security of the United States and the law abiding nations of the world could not be more clear, particularly in the aftermath of September 11th.

Yet the Administration's handling of the run up to war with Iraq could not possibly have been more inept or self-defeating. President Bush has clumsily and arrogantly squandered the post 9/11 support and goodwill of the entire civilized world in a manner that will make the jobs ahead of us - both the military defeat and the rebuilding of Iraq - decidedly more expensive in every sense of that word.

The Administration's indifference to diplomacy and the manner in which it has treated friend and foe alike over the past several months have left this country with vastly reduced influence throughout the world, made impossible the assembly of a broad, multinational effort against Saddam Hussein, and dramatically increased the costs of fulfilling our legitimate security obligations at home and around the world.

At home, the Administration has given too short shrift to the needs of homeland security, ignoring the advice of their own experts, doing the job on the fly and on the cheap. To this administration, homeland security is a fine political weapon, but not high enough a priority to force a reassessment of their tax cuts to the rich and the special interests.

My strong personal preference would have been for the Administration - like the Administration of George Bush, Sr. -- to have given diplomacy more time, more commitment, a real chance of success. In my estimation, giving the world thirty additional days for additional real multilateral coalition building - a real summit, not a five hour flyby with most of the world's powers excluded -- would have been prudent and no impediment to our military situation, an assessment with which our top military brass apparently agree. Unfortunately, that is an option that has been disregarded by President Bush. In the colloquial, we are where we are.

It will take years to repair the needless damage done by this Administration, damage to our international standing and moral leadership, to traditional and time-tested alliances, to our relations with the Arab world, ultimately to ourselves. Let's finish the process we began twelve years ago of disarming Saddam and ridding the world of this menace. Let's begin to rebuild our sense of national unity. Let's begin the work of building a stronger, safer world, of rebuilding alliances, and staying the course of long term involvement the Middle East in order to reclaim our rightful place of respect in the world order."
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. PS - Can You Find The Joe Klein Profile, Too?
How do you do that google retrieval thingee? That's awesome!
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. You mean this?
http://www.time.com/time/columnist/klein/article/0,9565,483270,00.html

On the 3-17 speech, (I think it was actually 3-18) this vote-smart link is better: http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M000003667

the google cache links expire after awhile.

When you do a google search, if you find something, but then the link is no good, go back to your search results and use the 'Cached' link. But then you will want to save it locally because the link won't be good forever...
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. It Was An Article Only Available At Kerry.com
It was originally from The New Yorker, but they didn't put it on-line. I have a real copy of it, and printed out a copy in Microsoft Word. It was a great source, but the campaign cleaned out months of old articles.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Removing Saddam by what method??? Liquid Paper????????
That's like saying Kerry supports 'dropping the bombs' but does not support 'the bombs hitting the ground??'

I vote for the war but am not FOR the war. I know I voted right to go to war but not TO war...just TOWARDS War and to Advance in the direction of war but not arrive at war. Kerry-speak

Dean '04...
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Like I will not support unilateral war, but WILL support multilateral war.
Well, HD, we had a multilateral war according to Webster's Dictionary and the media.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. If the war goes well, and we find tons of WMD, he's pro-war
and he obviously did the right thing.

If it doesn't, then it was obvious to him all along that we shouldn't have invaded.

It's called "nuance", you see.

He'd do just what Bush did, only better!
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. It's called 'Bush-like'.
.
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MrPeepers Donating Member (311 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. Or it's called
acting in the interest of national security. If Hussein did have large stocks of biological and chemical weapons, and was trying to get nukes, I think it would be wise to prevent him from keeping those WMD and accuiring more. I think that's just common sense. He would NOT have gone in unilaterally and without exhausting diplomatic channels as Bush did, that case cannot be made. Bush-like is as far from the truth as it gets.

Peepers
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Saddam wasn't a threat.
And we didn't have any proof he was a threat to anybody.

You don't invade unilaterally, or multilaterally, unless you have proof.

Sure, it's a good guess that he was up to something, but you don't go to war based on a hunch.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #44
58. Kerry: '(Bush) is a good man trying to do good things' joined at the hips,
I'd say...pro-war pro-Bush Bush-Lite Bush-like

Dean '04...
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Dean: I liked George Bush as governor.
and Dean on MTP, July 2002:

MR. RUSSERT: Do you believe the military operation in Afghanistan has been successful?
       
       GOV. DEAN: Yes, I do, and I support the president in that military operation.
       
       MR. RUSSERT: The battle of Tora Bora was successful?
       
       GOV. DEAN: I’ve seen others criticize the president. I think it’s very easy to second-guess the
       commander-in-chief at a time of war. I don’t choose to engage in doing that.

>>>>>>>

MR. RUSSERT: You heard Mr. Armey’s objection to the president’s TIPS Program, where cable
       installers, utility workers would observe what’s going on and report anything suspicious to the police.
       Do you support the president?
       
       GOV. DEAN: I tend to support the president, although I have some reservations about this one as well.
       All I’ve seen is what’s been on television, and I have something in me that is bothered by the notion that
       Americans are going to be spying on each other. So if the president is simply asking people to be alert,
       I think that’s fine. If the president really is encouraging Americans to spy on each other, I have a
       problem with that.
       
       MR. RUSSERT: You did say after the 11th that the United States may be prepared to have to sacrifice
       some personal liberties and civil liberties in order to fight the war on terrorism.
       
       GOV. DEAN: We already are. I think when I got on the airplane to come down here, it took me about
       25 minutes longer than it would have a year ago. And those are the kinds of liberties that we are going
       to be sacrificing and there may be some other ones.
       
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Sorry BLM I missed the point.
Dean '04
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lcordero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. I will not let anybody have it both ways
It's either "Yes" or "No", that's part of the performance requirement. A person's record is based on their past performance.

The anti-war issue is definitely not one issue by itself. I define the anti-war issue as anti-lie, anti-stupidity, pro-ethics, and anti-corruption.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You must be a Kucinich supporter.
Because the differences between Dean and Kerry's positions are all in the eye of the beholder:

Dean:Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/02/20/dean/index2.html

Kerry: "If we go it alone without reason, we risk inflaming an entire region and breeding a new generation of terrorists, a new cadre of anti-American zealots - and we will be less secure, not more secure, at the end of the day, even with Saddam Hussein disarmed. Let there be no doubt or confusion as to where I stand: I will support a multilateral effort to disarm Iraq by force, if we have exhausted all other options. But I cannot - and will not - support a unilateral, US war against Iraq unless the threat is imminent and no multilateral effort is possible." http://www.johnkerry.com/news/speeches/spc_2002_1009.html




Dean:"In Iraq, I would be prepared to go ahead without further Security Council backing if it were clear the threat posed to us by Saddam Hussein was imminent, and could neither be contained nor deterred."
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html

Kerry:"we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war."
http://www.johnkerry.com/news/speeches/spc_2003_0123.html

Dean:"never been in doubt about the evil of Saddam Hussein or the necessity of removing his weapons of mass destruction."
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000395.html


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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. This statement is not in the source you gave.
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 03:04 PM by w4rma
"In Iraq, I would be prepared to go ahead without further Security Council backing if it were clear the threat posed to us by Saddam Hussein was imminent, and could neither be contained nor deterred."
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html

And the salon quote was taken out of context:

He gets a deluge of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is -- "as I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/02/20/dean/index2.html
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cindyw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Dean is not anti-unilateral war
He stated openly that we should go to war without the U.N. if Saddam has weapons and the threat was imminent. I would say Dean is against this war for the way that Bush based his war on ideology and not the reality on the ground. This view is very similar to Kerry. The only difference is that Kerry was fed evidence by the CIA that was tweaked by Cheney's lobbying. Dean only knew what the rest of us knew. Honestly, this war never passed my smell test. I always thought that we should hold Saddam accountable, but that this did not necessarily mean war. War should only happen when we have been attacked or when we have an imminent threat. Neither of those existed here.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Check again. It's there.
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 02:43 PM by Feanorcurufinwe

When you say something like that that is blatantly untrue, you remind me of your hero, Dean.

In short, America may have to go to war with Iraq, but we should not rush into war - especially without broad international support.

Now, I am not among those who say that America should never use its armed forces unilaterally. In some circumstances, we have no choice. In Iraq, I would be prepared to go ahead without further Security Council backing if it were clear the threat posed to us by Saddam Hussein was imminent, and could neither be contained nor deterred.
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html


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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. *None* of that is in this speech. You are flat out unequivocally wrong.
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 03:38 PM by w4rma
An apology will be forthcoming from you, right Feanorcurufinwe?
Gov. Howard Dean
"Defending American Values - Protecting America's Interests"
Foreign Policy Address
Drake University
February 17, 2003

There are two reasons I decided to run for President. The first is the state of our country today. On the economy, the current Administration deserves credit for accomplishing the impossible. In two years, they've turned a $200 billion budget surplus into a $300 billion deficit. Despite their extravagance, the economy is stagnant. More people have lost jobs than in 20 years. Families are losing their health insurance. Investments and retirement accounts have lost trillions of dollars. And the Administration's answer to every problem is still more tax cuts for the rich.

The Bush Administration's policies at home and abroad are reckless and just plain wrong.

We can do better.

But better stewardship at home is not the only reason I am running for President. There is a second reason, and that is what I wanted to talk to you about today.

Our country needs to have national security policies that protect the interests of the American people. To do that, those policies must keep us safe and well defended against the myriad threats we face. But they cannot succeed unless they also reflect the kind of people we are, the values we share, the hopes we have, and the ideals that hold us together as a nation.

I am worried that many of the policies the Bush Administration is pursuing today do not provide the best means of defending our interests, and do not reflect the fundamental values of our people.

In saying this, I am respectful of the pressures our leaders face. Safeguarding our national security in this era is a very complex challenge, to which there are no easy answers. The President deserves praise for rallying the spirits of our people after September 11 and for some of the measures he and others in his Administration have taken since. I know they are sincere, and that they want what is best for our country and the world.

But I would not be doing my job as a citizen if I did not state my own conviction about where I believe we could do better.

The stakes are so high, this is not a time for holding back or sheepishly going along with the herd.

I believe that the President too often employs a reckless, go-it-alone approach that drives us away from some of our longest-standing and most important allies, when what we need is to pull the world community together in common action against the imminent threat of terrorism.

I believe that the President undercuts our long-term national security interests and the established international order when he seeks to replace decades of bipartisan consensus on the use of American force with a new doctrine justifying preemptive attacks against other nation states - not because of their current action or imminent threat, but to preempt a threat that could arise in the future.

I believe that the President must do more on the most important front in the war on terrorism - our home front - through strengthened and well-funded first responders and effective security measures that go beyond calls to purchase plastic sheeting and duct tape.

And I firmly believe that the President is focusing our diplomats, our military, our intelligence agencies, and even our people on the wrong war, at the wrong time, when our energy and our resources should be marshaled for the greatest threats we face. Yes, Saddam Hussein is evil. But Osama bin Laden is also evil, and he has attacked the United States, and he is preparing now to attack us again.

What happened to the war against al Qaeda?

Why has this Administration taken us so far off track?

I believe it is my patriotic duty to urge a different path to protecting America's security: To focus on al Qaeda, which is an imminent threat, and to use our resources to improve and strengthen the security and safety of our home front and our people while working with the other nations of the world to contain Saddam Hussein.

Had I been a member of the Senate, I would have voted against the resolution that authorized the President to use unilateral force against Iraq - unlike others in that body now seeking the presidency.

I do not believe the President should have been given a green light to drive our nation into conflict without the case having first been made to Congress and the American people for why this war is necessary, and without a requirement that we at least try first to work through the United Nations.

That the President was given open-ended authority to go to war in Iraq resulted from a failure of too many in my party in Washington who were worried about political positioning for the presidential election.

To this day, the President has not made a case that war against Iraq, now, is necessary to defend American territory, our citizens, our allies, or our essential interests.

Nor has the Administration prepared sufficiently for the possible retaliatory attacks on our home front that even the President's CIA Director has stated are likely to occur. It has always been important, before going to war, for our troops to be well-trained, well-equipped, and well-protected. In this new era, it is as important that our people on the home front also be well-protected.

The Administration has not explained how a lasting peace, and lasting security, will be achieved in Iraq once Saddam Hussein is toppled.

And the Administration has approached the United Nations more as an afterthought than as the international institution created to deal with precisely such a situation as we face in Iraq. From the outset, the Administration has seemed oblivious to the simple fact that it clearly would be in our interests for any war with Iraq to occur with UN authorization and cooperation and not without it.

The Administration's reckless bluster with our allies over Iraq has caused what could be lasting friction in important relationships and has injured our standing in the world community. When rhetoric by subordinates in the Administration alienates our long-standing allies, it should be met with reprimand and not condoned by the President.

I agree with President Bush - he has said that Saddam Hussein is evil. And he is.

He is a vicious dictator and a documented deceiver.

He has invaded his neighbors, used chemical arms, and failed to account for all the chemical and biological weapons he had before the Gulf War.

He has murdered dissidents, and refused to comply with his obligations under UN Security Council Resolutions.

And he has tried to build a nuclear bomb.

Anyone who believes in the importance of limiting the spread of weapons of mass killing, the value of democracy, and the centrality of human rights must agree that Saddam Hussein is a menace. The world would be a better place if he were in a different place other than the seat of power in Baghdad or any other country.

So I want to be clear.

Saddam Hussein must disarm. This is not a debate; it is a given.

The questions are: how - when - under what circumstances - and by whom he is to be disarmed.

The Administration thinks the right answers to those questions are war, now, regardless of the circumstances, and with most if not all the fighting done by Americans.

I, for one, am not ready to abandon the search for better answers.

As a doctor, I was trained to treat illness, and to examine.
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I don't understand why you are stating such an easily refutable untruth
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 03:49 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
I've already shown the quote. But here it is again:

In short, America may have to go to war with Iraq, but we should not rush into war - especially without broad international support.

Now, I am not among those who say that America should never use its armed forces unilaterally. In some circumstances, we have no choice. In Iraq, I would be prepared to go ahead without further Security Council backing if it were clear the threat posed to us by Saddam Hussein was imminent, and could neither be contained nor deterred. http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html



Either you are unable, or unwilling to read the whole speech, or unable, or unwilling to use the search feature in your browser. Or you are being intentionally dishonest.

If using IE, go to http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html hit Ctrl-F to search for text in the page. Type in the word 'unilaterally' and click Search. Folks, check for yourself. :eyes:


PS: w4rma, your credibility is on the line.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. That isn't the whole speech.
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 05:56 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
It really is starting to look like you are being intentionally dishonest, although I hesitate to say so.

Here is the whole speech:

Gov. Howard Dean
"Defending American Values - Protecting America's Interests"
Foreign Policy Address
Drake University
February 17, 2003

There are two reasons I decided to run for President. The first is the state of our country today. On the economy, the current Administration deserves credit for accomplishing the impossible. In two years, they've turned a $200 billion budget surplus into a $300 billion deficit. Despite their extravagance, the economy is stagnant. More people have lost jobs than in 20 years. Families are losing their health insurance. Investments and retirement accounts have lost trillions of dollars. And the Administration's answer to every problem is still more tax cuts for the rich.

The Bush Administration's policies at home and abroad are reckless and just plain wrong.

We can do better.

But better stewardship at home is not the only reason I am running for President. There is a second reason, and that is what I wanted to talk to you about today.

Our country needs to have national security policies that protect the interests of the American people. To do that, those policies must keep us safe and well defended against the myriad threats we face. But they cannot succeed unless they also reflect the kind of people we are, the values we share, the hopes we have, and the ideals that hold us together as a nation.

I am worried that many of the policies the Bush Administration is pursuing today do not provide the best means of defending our interests, and do not reflect the fundamental values of our people.

In saying this, I am respectful of the pressures our leaders face. Safeguarding our national security in this era is a very complex challenge, to which there are no easy answers. The President deserves praise for rallying the spirits of our people after September 11 and for some of the measures he and others in his Administration have taken since. I know they are sincere, and that they want what is best for our country and the world.

But I would not be doing my job as a citizen if I did not state my own conviction about where I believe we could do better.

The stakes are so high, this is not a time for holding back or sheepishly going along with the herd.

I believe that the President too often employs a reckless, go-it-alone approach that drives us away from some of our longest-standing and most important allies, when what we need is to pull the world community together in common action against the imminent threat of terrorism.

I believe that the President undercuts our long-term national security interests and the established international order when he seeks to replace decades of bipartisan consensus on the use of American force with a new doctrine justifying preemptive attacks against other nation states - not because of their current action or imminent threat, but to preempt a threat that could arise in the future.

I believe that the President must do more on the most important front in the war on terrorism - our home front - through strengthened and well-funded first responders and effective security measures that go beyond calls to purchase plastic sheeting and duct tape.

And I firmly believe that the President is focusing our diplomats, our military, our intelligence agencies, and even our people on the wrong war, at the wrong time, when our energy and our resources should be marshaled for the greatest threats we face. Yes, Saddam Hussein is evil. But Osama bin Laden is also evil, and he has attacked the United States, and he is preparing now to attack us again.

What happened to the war against al Qaeda?

Why has this Administration taken us so far off track?

I believe it is my patriotic duty to urge a different path to protecting America's security: To focus on al Qaeda, which is an imminent threat, and to use our resources to improve and strengthen the security and safety of our home front and our people while working with the other nations of the world to contain Saddam Hussein.

Had I been a member of the Senate, I would have voted against the resolution that authorized the President to use unilateral force against Iraq - unlike others in that body now seeking the presidency.

I do not believe the President should have been given a green light to drive our nation into conflict without the case having first been made to Congress and the American people for why this war is necessary, and without a requirement that we at least try first to work through the United Nations.

That the President was given open-ended authority to go to war in Iraq resulted from a failure of too many in my party in Washington who were worried about political positioning for the presidential election.

To this day, the President has not made a case that war against Iraq, now, is necessary to defend American territory, our citizens, our allies, or our essential interests.

Nor has the Administration prepared sufficiently for the possible retaliatory attacks on our home front that even the President's CIA Director has stated are likely to occur. It has always been important, before going to war, for our troops to be well-trained, well-equipped, and well-protected. In this new era, it is as important that our people on the home front also be well-protected.

The Administration has not explained how a lasting peace, and lasting security, will be achieved in Iraq once Saddam Hussein is toppled.

And the Administration has approached the United Nations more as an afterthought than as the international institution created to deal with precisely such a situation as we face in Iraq. From the outset, the Administration has seemed oblivious to the simple fact that it clearly would be in our interests for any war with Iraq to occur with UN authorization and cooperation and not without it.

The Administration's reckless bluster with our allies over Iraq has caused what could be lasting friction in important relationships and has injured our standing in the world community. When rhetoric by subordinates in the Administration alienates our long-standing allies, it should be met with reprimand and not condoned by the President.

I agree with President Bush - he has said that Saddam Hussein is evil. And he is.

He is a vicious dictator and a documented deceiver.

He has invaded his neighbors, used chemical arms, and failed to account for all the chemical and biological weapons he had before the Gulf War.

He has murdered dissidents, and refused to comply with his obligations under UN Security Council Resolutions.

And he has tried to build a nuclear bomb.

Anyone who believes in the importance of limiting the spread of weapons of mass killing, the value of democracy, and the centrality of human rights must agree that Saddam Hussein is a menace. The world would be a better place if he were in a different place other than the seat of power in Baghdad or any other country.

So I want to be clear.

Saddam Hussein must disarm. This is not a debate; it is a given.

The questions are: how - when - under what circumstances - and by whom he is to be disarmed.

The Administration thinks the right answers to those questions are war, now, regardless of the circumstances, and with most if not all the fighting done by Americans.

I, for one, am not ready to abandon the search for better answers.

As a doctor, I was trained to treat illness, and to examine a variety of options before deciding which to prescribe. I worried about side effects and took the time to see what else might work before proceeding to high-risk measures.

Before going to war with Iraq, we need to explore fully and carefully what else might work.

Saddam Hussein should not mistake a debate in this country about the best way to disarm him for any lack of resolve, here or elsewhere, that he must be disarmed. We will ensure that Saddam Hussein is disarmed of weapons of mass destruction.

But we must be smart as well as tough.

In the past, UN inspections destroyed more weapons of mass destruction capacity in Iraq than were destroyed in the Gulf War.

The inspectors are now back inside Iraq.

They are interviewing scientists. Confiscating papers. Conducting surprise visits. This past weekend, the lead inspectors reported that Iraqi cooperation, while still not satisfactory, is improving. Iraq has dropped its longstanding objections to U-2 surveillance flights. And serious proposals are being made for strengthening the inspection teams, making them bigger, and shielding them from intimidation.

The President dismisses all this, calling it a movie he has seen before.

He says we don't need more inspections, because we already have enough information to justify going to war.

My question is, why not use our information to help the UN disarm Iraq without war?

Secretary Powell's recent presentation at the UN showed the extent to which we have Iraq under an audio and visual microscope. Given that, I was impressed not by the vastness of evidence presented by the Secretary, but rather by its sketchiness. He said there would be no smoking gun, and there was none.

At the same time, it seems to me we are in possession of information that would be very helpful to UN inspectors. For example, if we know Iraqi scientists are being detained at an Iraqi guesthouse, why not surround the building and knock on the door?

If we think a facility is being used for biological weapons, why not send the inspectors to check it out?

And if we believe terrorists - especially if they are terrorists linked to al Qaeda - have set up a poison and explosives training center in Northern Iraq, outside Saddam Hussein's control, why haven't we verified that information and destroyed that camp?

We know that Saddam will get away with whatever he can.

But what can he get away with as long as Iraq is inspected, under constant surveillance, surrounded, grounded because of no fly zones, and barred from receiving weapons and other strategic materials?

The CIA and Defense Department have indicated that, by far, the most likely scenario for Saddam using chemical or biological weapons - or sponsoring a terrorist attack - would be precisely if we invaded Iraq, because then he would have nothing to lose.

Neither President Bush in the State of the Union nor Secretary Powell at the UN mentioned that intelligence assessment. And it is just one of many issues the President has not yet adequately addressed.

We have been told over and over again what the risks will be if we do not go to war.

We have been told little about what the risks will be if we do go to war.

If we go to war, I certainly hope the Administration's assumptions are realized, and the conflict is swift, successful and clean.

I certainly hope our armed forces will be welcomed like heroes and liberators in the streets of Baghdad.

I certainly hope Iraq emerges from the war stable, united and democratic.

I certainly hope terrorists around the world conclude it is a mistake to defy America and cease, thereafter, to be terrorists.

It is possible, however, that events could go differently, and that the Iraqi Republican Guard will not sit out in the desert where they can be destroyed easily from the air.

It is possible that Iraq will try to force our troops to fight house to house in the middle of cities - on its turf, not ours - where precision-guided missiles are of little use.

It is possible that women and children will be used as shields and our efforts to minimize civilian casualties will be far less successful than we hope.

There are other risks.

Iraq is a divided country, with Sunni, Shia and Kurdish factions that share both bitter rivalries and access to large quantities of arms.

Iran and Turkey each have interests in Iraq they will be tempted to protect with or without our approval.

If the war lasts more than a few weeks, the danger of humanitarian disaster is high, because many Iraqis depend on their government for food, and during war it would be difficult for us to get all the necessary aid to the Iraqi people.

There is a risk of environmental disaster, caused by damage to Iraq's oil fields.

And, perhaps most importantly, there is a very real danger that war in Iraq will fuel the fires of international terror.

Anti-American feelings will surely be inflamed among the misguided who choose to see an assault on Iraq as an attack on Islam, or as a means of controlling Iraqi oil.

And last week's tape by Osama bin Laden tells us that our enemies will seek relentlessly to transform a war into a tool for inspiring and recruiting more terrorists.

We should remember how our military presence in Saudi Arabia has been exploited by radicals to stir resentment and hatred against the United States, leading to the murder of American citizens and soldiers.

We need to consider what the effect will be of a U.S. invasion and occupation of Baghdad, a city that served for centuries as a capital of the Islamic world.

Some people simply brush aside these concerns, saying there were also a lot of dire predictions before the first Gulf War, and that those didn't come true.

We have learned through experience to have confidence in our armed forces - and that confidence is very well deserved.

But if you talk to military leaders, they will tell you there is a big difference between pushing back the Iraqi armed forces in Kuwait and trying to defeat them on their home ground.

There are limits to what even our military can do. Technology is not the solution to every problem. And we can't assume the Iraqis have learned nothing over the past twelve years.

In short, America may have to go to war with Iraq, but we should not rush into war - especially without broad international support.

Now, I am not among those who say that America should never use its armed forces unilaterally. In some circumstances, we have no choice. In Iraq, I would be prepared to go ahead without further Security Council backing if it were clear the threat posed to us by Saddam Hussein was imminent, and could neither be contained nor deterred.


However, that case has not been made, and I believe we should continue the hard work of diplomacy and inspection.

We should work with the Security Council to push the UN inspection process as hard as possible, as fast as possible, and with as much help as possible from our intelligence assets. We should continue as long as there is progress toward disclosure and disarmament and the inspectors tell us credibly that there is promising work to be done. We should have the inspectors report back every 30 or 60 days, so that we can assess whether to continue on course or take tougher action.

If particular weapons of mass destruction are discovered, by the inspectors or otherwise, they must be destroyed immediately, by the inspectors or by the Iraqi government. If they are not, their destruction should be accomplished by military action under the UN. I believe that every member of the Security Council would support such an approach.

Saddam Hussein must not have weapons of mass destruction. But particular weapons can be destroyed without an all-out war to impose a change of regimes. That is a much larger step, for which the case has not yet been made.

We must remember, though, that Iraq is not the greatest danger we face today. Consider, to begin with, North Korea.

The Administration says it is wrong to draw a parallel between the situations in Iraq and North Korea, because those situations are quite different. I agree.

Iraq has let UN inspectors back in. North Korea has kicked them out.

Saddam Hussein does not have a clear path to acquiring nuclear weapons. North Korea may already have them - and is on a clear path to acquiring more.

Saddam Hussein has missiles that can go 40 miles farther than the 90-mile range allowed by the UN. North Korea has tested a three-stage intercontinental ballistic missile that might be able to reach California, Oregon, and Washington.

I marvel at the discipline of this Administration in sticking to its message -that Saddam is the greatest danger - regardless of world developments.

We have the most dangerous situation in East Asia in a decade - perhaps in five decades, and the Administration is treating it as a sideshow. The reason is that North Korea doesn't fit into any of the Administration's preconceived little boxes.

They haven't wanted to talk to North Korea because a solution requires negotiation - and sitting at the bargaining table is something Bill Clinton used to do. They do not see themselves as negotiators; they see themselves as pre-emptors. But preemption on the Korean Peninsula is a much different proposition than it is in the Persian Gulf.

In Korea, the Communist military forces are concentrated along the border with the South, less than forty miles from Seoul. Rockets and missiles, bombs and troops could strike with little or no notice. Even in the best case, a war, once begun, could take thousands of lives and seriously endanger the 37,000 American troops deployed on the Peninsula.

How did we get into this mess?

A decade ago, North Korea agreed to freeze its nuclear weapons program in return for our help in building civilian nuclear power plants.

As a result, 8,000 fuel rods containing reprocessed plutonium were sealed up and maintained under international inspection. That's enough plutonium to make half a dozen nuclear bombs.

In recent weeks, it has become clear that the North Koreans have broken the agreement. They have begun moving the fuel rods to a new location, and threatening to unseal them. They could also re-start their reactor and produce more and more plutonium.

Within months, North Korea could become a confirmed nuclear power. Unlike Iraq, it has an advanced missile program, which would make its possession of nuclear arms even more dangerous.

The result would be the certainty of heightened tensions throughout East Asia, the likelihood of nuclear blackmail, the risk of a regional arms race, and the chance that the nuclear materials will be put up for sale to the highest bidder.

The Administration's response to all this has been to say that "every option is on the table."

Now, I have been in public service for quite awhile, and I'll let you in on a little secret.

When government officials say, "every option is on the table," it's because they haven't got a clue what they intend to do.

It would be unfair for me to suggest that negotiating with North Korea is a simple matter. By all accounts, it is extremely difficult. No one can guarantee a successful outcome.

But you can guarantee failure if you do not even try. And this administration has not tried.

Instead of a serious policy, they have wasted time, alienated our allies and engaged in a pointless war of words with Pyongyang.

Even now, the Administration seems to want to avoid anything that would shift the world spotlight from the dangers of the Persian Gulf to the even greater perils of the Korean Peninsula.

I think we can do better.

We do not want to risk war. But neither do we want to run the risk of doing nothing in the face of North Korea's provocative and dangerous behavior.

A serious policy toward North Korea would be based on four principles. First, it must result in a verifiably nuclear free Korean Peninsula. Second, it must be carried out in full coordination with our allies in Seoul and Tokyo and close cooperation with Moscow, Beijing and the European Union. Third, it must include a willingness to engage in direct talks with North Korea, not as some kind of reward to Pyongyang, but as a means of doing what is necessary to prevent proliferation and the risk of war. Finally, it must be implemented now.

You would not know it from the Administration's approach, but time is not on our side.

North Korea will be far easier to contend with as a threatening power than as a declared nuclear power.

And plutonium, once it is produced, has a half-life of more than 24,000 years. It is almost impossible to get rid of.

Given the history, it will take months, if not years, to reach a comprehensive understanding with North Korea on all issues. What we need now is an interim arrangement that will contain the crisis until we can end it.

Together with our allies, and others in the region, we should challenge Pyongyang to return the fuel rods to their previous location, and allow international authorities to inspect and re-seal them. North Korea must also continue its moratorium - secured by President Clinton, I might add - on tests of long-range missiles.

In return, the U.S. can pledge to take no military action against the North and agree to resume direct, high-level talks. Both sides should agree to maintain these pledges as long as talks are ongoing. The discussions should be wide-ranging and designed to give North Korea a chance to reduce its isolation and begin moving in the direction of a normal society.

North Korea is a far greater danger to world peace than Iraq.

But there is, of course, an even greater danger. It is not, after all, because of Saddam Hussein or North Korea that our government has recommended that we prepare safe rooms in our homes sealed off with plastic sheeting and duct tape.

Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda and their allies have murdered thousands of Americans and vowed to murder more.

The threat they pose is imminent, constant and substantial. It cannot be deterred. Because it is global, it cannot be contained. It must be confronted until it is defeated.

Eliminating the threat to Americans from al Qaeda and other terrorists is not simply a goal to put on a list with a lot of others. It must be the top priority of our government and the primary focus of our President.

I ask you to think back to September 11, 2001. Remember not only our horror, but also our unity and resolve. We were unified in spirit, and willing to make common sacrifice for the greater good and safety of our nation. Al Qaeda had attacked us and we would fight back. And that unity was worldwide, as nation after nation pledged to support us in this fight. Newspapers across the globe ran headlines that proclaimed: "Today We Are All Americans."

And yet, 18 months later, a lot of that international support is gone. Surveys tell us that majorities in Europe see the United States as a major threat to world peace. Surveys tell us that regard for the United States has declined in every country and on every continent. In countries that have long been our allies, leaders are getting elected because of the fervor of their anti-America message.

What happened?

This Administration squandered the world's good will toward us.

The world sees the United States, under President Bush, as a go-it-alone country. Because we are the world's only superpower, this is not of small concern to other nations.

Top officials in the Administration insult our allies, including Germany - the country now leading the anti-terror coalition in Afghanistan.

Our government has continually missed the opportunity to remind people worldwide that the struggle against terror is their struggle, too.

Last fall, the President commanded the attention of the world when he addressed the UN General Assembly. Had I been in that bully pulpit, I would have used it to rally the world in the fight against terror. I would have thanked by name the dozens of governments that have helped and urged them to do more. I would have appealed to scholars and educators and governments around the globe to agree on the basic principle that terrorism is wrong like genocide is wrong and slavery is wrong and racism is wrong. I would have reached out to people of all faiths and cultures and appealed to them to forge a grand coalition of the peace-loving and law-abiding to defeat this cancer in our midst.

President Bush didn't do that. He spoke about Iraq.

Then, last month, he again had the whole world listening as he gave his State of the Union Address.

He devoted four paragraphs to the war against terror. He devoted sixteen to Iraq.

He mentioned Saddam Hussein by name 18 times. He did not mention Osama bin Laden at all.

The President sounds like a war President, but I must ask whether he is focused on the right war.

And do not doubt; we are in a war.

More than 17 months after September 11, Osama bin Laden and most of his top associates are alive and threatening more attacks.

In recent months, American troops or civilians have been assaulted in Afghanistan, Yemen, Jordan, the Philippines and Kuwait.

A French tanker was bombed.

Nearly 200 people in Bali were murdered, with Americans as the intended targets.

Terrorists killed a dozen innocent people in Kenya and just missed shooting down a plane filled with Israeli tourists.

CIA Director Tenet has warned, "the threat environment we find ourselves in is as bad as it was in the summer before September 11." And the colors orange and red now have new meaning for all Americans.

We must deal with these threats through a relentless and hardheaded strategy that protects, prevents and responds over the long term.

We must do more - much more - to protect our water supplies, our buildings and monuments, our bridges and highways, our dams, and our nuclear power plants. It is not enough to search the handbag of every grandmother boarding every airplane. We must also search the huge cargo containers entering our ports from foreign countries. Today, we inspect just two percent before they are loaded onto trucks and driven away.

We must do more - much more - to train and equip the state and local police, fire, and public health services that will be our first responders in case of another terrorist attack.

Here, incomprehensibly, the Bush Administration stands in the way of what needs to be done. Our first responders still have not received the first dollar of the money they were promised one year ago. The President and the Republican Congress just agreed to spend $1.3 billion more for homeland security. That is one-tenth of one percent of the cost of President Bush's first tax cut. Why not more for homeland security? Democrats in Congress tried to add $5 billion for what the President's own Cabinet and security experts say is needed to meet urgent and compelling needs. The President blocked it. He says we can't afford it. For him, homeland security for all Americans must not be as important as tax cuts for the wealthy few.

Those may be his priorities, but they are not mine.

Because I will have no higher priority than the security and safety of the American people.

That's why we must double our funding for keeping Americans safe at home, from police to firefighters, from port inspections to powerplant security.

That's why our armed forces must remain the finest in the world, equipped and trained to fight 21st Century battles and defeat 21st Century threats.

We must improve leadership within the CIA, FBI and other agencies to provide the level of communication and vigilance needed to prevent another September 11.

We must redouble our efforts through the Cooperative Threat Reduction program to prevent nuclear materials from Russia and other former Soviet Republics from falling into the wrong hands.

We must follow through on our commitments in Afghanistan to prevent that troubled land from ever again serving as a base for terrorism.

Around the world, we must show an unwavering dedication to the principles of democracy, tolerance, and human rights, including the rights of women to participate as full and equal citizens in every society, including those in the Middle East.

Above all, we must be clear that no terrorist will ever intimidate the United States of America into withdrawing from the world or abandoning our allies, friends and ideals.

I do hope, however, that recent events will spur us into developing a national energy policy that puts long-term security above short-term profits.

Three decades after the 1973 OPEC oil embargo, the United States continues to consume 40 percent of the world's oil. That is a failure of American policy and an unacceptable danger to the American people. Because it means we are sending billions of dollars annually to countries financing radical educational systems that teach young people to hate Christians, Jews and Americans. That is crazy, because we know these schools are prime recruiting grounds for terrorists.

It's time we had an energy policy that will protect America by stressing conservation and renewable fuels, including solar, wind, ethanol and biomass. After two years on the job, the President finally found one sound energy idea he could support, and promised to increase funding for fuel cell research. Of course, this was nothing more than a cynical ruse to avoid taking any serious steps during his term to achieve energy independence. But we can, and must, do far more. Alternative energy sources are practical, economically viable and good for our environment. They are also essential to our national security. We need real, effective, sustained leadership to move us into a secure energy future - not a single sound-bite in one State of the Union.

I cannot leave the subject of terrorism without bringing up a subject President Bush unaccountably neglected to bring up during his recent State of the Union address - and that is the need to end the seemingly endless cycle of violence in the Middle East.

Here, I do not differ with the President's stated policy; I just wish he would actually apply it. Since taking office, the Administration has been disengaged from the Middle East, then engaged, and then disengaged once more. This is another example of the President trying to distance himself from President Clinton, even though the Clinton Administration's approach reflected decades of bipartisan support for a comprehensive Middle East peace.

When they have bothered to state them, the Administration's guiding principles in the Middle East are the right ones. Terrorism against Israel must end. A two-state solution is the only path to eventual peace, but Palestinian territory cannot have the capability of being used as a platform for attacking Israel. Some degree of separation between Israelis and Palestinians is probably necessary in light of the horrible bloodshed of the past two years. To be viable, the Palestinian Authority must become democratic and purged of corruption.

But none of this will happen naturally. The United States is the only country with the ability to give both sides the confidence to move toward a future of co-existence. Appearances matter, and if we are not engaged, it looks like we simply do not care and that we have condemned the entire Palestinian people because of their leadership. In my view, this hurts the United States, it hurts Israel, and it makes it less likely the violence and the terrorism will end.

Last month, as I watched President Bush deliver his State of the Union Address, I thought to myself, he is missing an opportunity.

He is missing an opportunity to tell the world not only what America is against, but also what America is for.

He is missing a chance to offer a long range vision that would inspire people everywhere to join us not only in waging war, but also in building a world that is more broadly prosperous and secure than it has ever been.

To me, one of the best examples of long range vision was the Marshall Plan, put in place after World War II. That Plan was based on a clear understanding that America was not an island, and that our prosperity and freedom depended on the prosperity and freedom of our friends in Europe. And so we reached out to societies that had been devastated by war and helped them recover.

The payoff was enormous. During the Cold War, those societies served as a living demonstration of the opportunities created by democracy. They helped bring down the Berlin Wall, and suddenly a continent that had been torn apart by centuries of strife came together in liberty and peace.

Now, we have a new opportunity to do on a global basis what the Marshall Plan did for Western Europe. By that, I do not mean massive new aid programs, although I do favor increased investments in fighting global poverty and disease.

I have in mind a vision that would open the door for every country on every continent to participate in a system of shared duties and benefits.

I have in mind an integrated world system in which every nation has incentives to abide by the global rules of the road - especially in such areas as fighting terrorism, respecting human rights, conducting trade, observing fair worker standards, protecting the environment and combating corruption and crime.

Now I am aware that when I talk about a system of shared duties and benefits, I run the risk of shocking the Bush Administration. Because one way to build such a system is through international treaties.

This Administration, as we know, is allergic to treaties.

Instead of looking at an agreement and saying, well, 90% of this is in our interests, so we'll work with others to try to fix the rest - they just say forget it, rip it up, shred it. They are so worried that someday, someone will do something they don't like, they are willing to forgo all the benefits that come from joint action. This is true whether the issue is reducing the emission of greenhouse gases, creating an international criminal court or controlling biological weapons. This approach undercuts our standing and our ability to lead in the world.

Our nation is the world's preeminent power. With this power comes great responsibility. Our actions are important in themselves, but also as a model for what we may expect - and demand - of other nations. As a result, no country has a bigger stake than we in establishing and enforcing the highest possible norms of international behavior. We can't do that by constantly shunning others and vowing to go it alone. We can only do it through leadership that reflects the qualities of our own country at its very best.

Make no mistake, all of this is a different vision of how to protect America's interests in today's world.

There is a great clash of ideas underway in America today.

It is being waged in classrooms and meeting halls like those here at Drake, in the op-eds of our newspapers, on talk radio, in living rooms and kitchens, and on the campaign trail.

The outcome of this debate will determine what kind of America we are here at home, whether our policies are rejected or welcomed across the globe, and how secure we and people around the world are.

The people of Iowa have an incredible opportunity to influence the answer to those questions.

I ask you to take advantage of that opportunity.

I ask you to work for change - to stop the reckless policies of this Administration - because we need economic and foreign policies that reflect both the interests and the values of the American people.

On this President's Day, I ask you to have faith with Abraham Lincoln that "right makes might," and in that faith to join me in daring to "do our duty as we understand it."

I ask you to exercise your rights as citizens and with others in Iowa to help put America on the right path to a secure and proud future.

Thank you all very much.
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html



I don't understand why you would repeat your false assertions about this. Are you on medication today or something? Please show us it is not a matter of intentional dishonesty.

(Mods, I don't think either of these speeches is protected under copyright.)
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. lol
My browswer didn't load the whole page and when I went back to it, it only loaded what was already in the browser's cache.

Nonetheless, it is my opinion that you have been extremely condensending on this thread Feanorcurufinwe. I'm sorry that I questioned your intellegence. Now, I'd like you to apologize for questioning my honesty.

Your quote is still out of context of the speech. This speech was extremely critical of Bush's plans to invade Iraq and his insane overall foreign policy:

I believe that the President undercuts our long-term national security interests and the established international order when he seeks to replace decades of bipartisan consensus on the use of American force with a new doctrine justifying preemptive attacks against other nation states - not because of their current action or imminent threat, but to preempt a threat that could arise in the future.

I believe it is my patriotic duty to urge a different path to protecting America's security: To focus on al Qaeda, which is an imminent threat, and to use our resources to improve and strengthen the security and safety of our home front and our people while working with the other nations of the world to contain Saddam Hussein.

Had I been a member of the Senate, I would have voted against the resolution that authorized the President to use unilateral force against Iraq - unlike others in that body now seeking the presidency.

I do not believe the President should have been given a green light to drive our nation into conflict without the case having first been made to Congress and the American people for why this war is necessary, and without a requirement that we at least try first to work through the United Nations.

That the President was given open-ended authority to go to war in Iraq resulted from a failure of too many in my party in Washington who were worried about political positioning for the presidential election.

To this day, the President has not made a case that war against Iraq, now, is necessary to defend American territory, our citizens, our allies, or our essential interests.

He says we don't need more inspections, because we already have enough information to justify going to war.

My question is, why not use our information to help the UN disarm Iraq without war?

Secretary Powell's recent presentation at the UN showed the extent to which we have Iraq under an audio and visual microscope. Given that, I was impressed not by the vastness of evidence presented by the Secretary, but rather by its sketchiness. He said there would be no smoking gun, and there was none.

In short, America may have to go to war with Iraq, but we should not rush into war - especially without broad international support.

Now, I am not among those who say that America should never use its armed forces unilaterally. In some circumstances, we have no choice. In Iraq, I would be prepared to go ahead without further Security Council backing if it were clear the threat posed to us by Saddam Hussein was imminent, and could neither be contained nor deterred.

However, that case has not been made, and I believe we should continue the hard work of diplomacy and inspection.

We should work with the Security Council to push the UN inspection process as hard as possible, as fast as possible, and with as much help as possible from our intelligence assets. We should continue as long as there is progress toward disclosure and disarmament and the inspectors tell us credibly that there is promising work to be done. We should have the inspectors report back every 30 or 60 days, so that we can assess whether to continue on course or take tougher action.

If particular weapons of mass destruction are discovered, by the inspectors or otherwise, they must be destroyed immediately, by the inspectors or by the Iraqi government. If they are not, their destruction should be accomplished by military action under the UN. I believe that every member of the Security Council would support such an approach.

Saddam Hussein must not have weapons of mass destruction. But particular weapons can be destroyed without an all-out war to impose a change of regimes. That is a much larger step, for which the case has not yet been made.

We must remember, though, that Iraq is not the greatest danger we face today. Consider, to begin with, North Korea.

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. OK, you say you were mistaken. I can accept that.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. For balance
here is the foreign policy speech Kerry delivered a few weeks earlier.


Foreign Policy Speech at Georgetown University
January 23, 2003
Georgetown University, Washington, DC

As our government conducts one war and prepares for another, I come here today to make clear that we can do a better job of making our country safer and stronger. We need a new approach to national security - a bold, progressive internationalism that stands in stark contrast to the too often belligerent and myopic unilateralism of the Bush Administration.

I offer this new course at a critical moment for the country that we love, and the world in which we live and lead.

Thanks to the work and sacrifice of generations who opposed aggression and defended freedom, for others as well as ourselves, America now stands as the world's foremost power. We should be proud: Not since the age of the Romans have one people achieved such preeminence.

But we are not Romans; we do not seek an empire. We are Americans, trustees of a vision and a heritage that commit us to the values of democracy and the universal cause of human rights. So while we can be proud, we must be purposeful and mindful of our principles: And we must be patient - aware that there is no such thing as the end of history. With great power, comes grave responsibility.

We are all of us too aware, since September 11th, of the gravity of the times and the greatness of the stakes. Having won the Cold War, a brief season of content has been succeeded by a new war against terrorism which is an assault on the very progress we have made.

Throughout our history, in peaceful exertion and in armed struggle, we were steadfast - we were right on the central issue of freedom, and we prevailed. And because we prevailed the world is a far better place than it was or would otherwise have been.

The world today has a strong democratic core shaped by American ingenuity, sacrifice, and spirit. But on the periphery are many unstable and dangerous places, where terrorists seek to impose a medieval dark age.
As we learned so brutally and so personally, we do face a new threat. But we also face a renewed choice - between isolation in a perilous world, which I believe is impossible in any event, and engagement to shape a safer world which is the urgent imperative of our time.

A choice between those who think you can build walls to keep the world out, and those who want to tear down the barriers that separate "us" from "them." Between those who want America to go it alone, and those who want America to lead the world toward freedom.

The debate over how the United States should conduct itself in the world is not new.

After all, what is today's unilateralism but the right's old isolationist impulse in modern guise? At its core is a familiar and beguiling illusion: that America can escape an entangling world...that we can wield our enormous power without incurring obligations to others...and that we can pursue our national interests in arrogant ways that make a mockery of our nation's ideals.

I am here today to reject the narrow vision of those who would build walls to keep the world out, or who would prefer to strike out on our own instead of forging coalitions and step by step creating a new world of law and mutual security.

I believe the Bush Administration's blustering unilateralism is wrong, and even dangerous, for our country. In practice, it has meant alienating our long-time friends and allies, alarming potential foes and spreading anti-Americanism around the world.

Too often they've forgotten that energetic global leadership is a strategic imperative for America, not a favor we do for other countries. Leading the world's most advanced democracies isn't mushy multilateralism -- it amplifies America's voice and extends our reach. Working through global institutions doesn't tie our hands -- it invests US aims with greater legitimacy and dampens the fear and resentment that our preponderant power sometimes inspires in others.

In a world growing more, not less interdependent, unilateralism is a formula for isolation and shrinking influence. As much as some in the White House may desire it, America can't opt out of a networked world.
We can do better than we are doing today. And those who seek to lead have a duty to offer a clear vision of how we make Americans safer and make America more trusted and respected in the world.

That vision is defined by looking to our best traditions -- to the tough-minded strategy of international engagement and leadership forged by Wilson and Roosevelt in two world wars and championed by Truman and Kennedy in the Cold War.

These leaders recognized that America's safety depends on energetic leadership to rally the forces of freedom And they understood that to make the world safe for democracy and individual liberty, we needed to build international institutions dedicated to establishing the rule of law over the law of the jungle.
That's why Roosevelt pushed hard for the United Nations and the World Bank and IMF. It's why Truman insisted not only on creating NATO, but also on a Marshall Plan to speed Europe's recovery. It's why Kennedy not only faced down the Soviets during the Cuban Missile Crisis, but also signed the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and launched the Peace Corps to put American idealism to work in developing countries. He spoke out for an America strong because of its ideals as well as its weapons.

For us today, the past truly is prologue. The same principles and strength of purpose must guide our way. Our task now is to update that tradition, to forge a bold progressive internationalism for the global age.
As I said last summer in New York, for Democrats to win America's confidence we must first convince Americans we will keep them safe. You can't do that by avoiding the subjects of national security, foreign policy and military preparedness. Nor can we let our national security agenda be defined by those who reflexively oppose any U.S. military intervention anywhere...who see U.S. power as mostly a malignant force in world politics...who place a higher value on achieving multilateral consensus than necessarily protecting our vital interests.

Americans deserve better than a false choice between force without diplomacy and diplomacy without force. I believe they deserve a principled diplomacy...backed by undoubted military might...based on enlightened self-interest, not the zero-sum logic of power politics...a diplomacy that commits America to lead the world toward liberty and prosperity. A bold, progressive internationalism that focuses not just on the immediate and the imminent but insidious dangers that can mount over the next years and decades, dangers that span the spectrum from the denial of democracy, to destructive weapons, endemic poverty and epidemic disease. These are, in the truest sense, not just issues of international order and security, but vital issues of our own national security.

So how would this approach, this bold progressive internationalism, differ from the Bush Administration's erratic unilateralism and reluctant engagement? The answer starts by understanding the nature and source of the threat we face.

While we must remain determined to defeat terrorism, it isn't only terrorism we are fighting. It's the beliefs that motivate terrorists. A new ideology of hatred and intolerance has arisen to challenge America and liberal democracy. It seeks a war of Islam - as defined by extremists - against the rest of the world and we must be clear its epicenter is the Greater Middle East.

It's critical that we recognize the conditions that are breeding this virulent new form of anti-American terrorism. If you look at countries stretching from Morocco through the Middle East and beyond...broadly speaking the western Muslim world...what you see is a civilization under extraordinary stress.
The region's political and economic crisis is vividly captured in a recent report written by Arab scholars for the United Nations Development Program and the Arab Fund for Social and Economic Development. Let me quote:

"The wave of democracy that transformed governance in most of the world has barely reached the Arab states...The freedom deficit undermines human development and is one of the most painful manifestations of lagging political development."

According to Freedom House, there are no full-fledged democracies among the 16 Arab states of the Middle East and North Africa. The Middle East is not monolithic; there are governments making progress and struggling effectively with change in Jordan, Morocco and Qatar. But Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Syria are among the 10 least free nations in the world.

Political and economic participation among Arab women is the lowest in the world and more than half of Arab women are still illiterate.

And these countries are among the most economically isolated in the world, with very little trade apart from the oil royalties which flow to those at the very top. Since 1980, the share of world trade held by the 57 member countries of the Organization of the Islamic Conference has fallen from 15 percent to just four percent. The same countries attracted only $13.6 billion worth of foreign direct investment in 2001. That is just $600 million - only about 5 % - more than Sweden, which has only 9 million people compared to 1.3 billion people. In 1969, the GDP of South Korea and Egypt were almost identical. Today, South Korea boasts one of the 20 largest economies in the world while Egypt's remains economically frozen almost exactly where it was thirty years before.

A combination of harsh political repression, economic stagnation, lack of education and opportunity, and rapid population growth has proven simply explosive. The streets are full of young people who have no jobs... no prospects... no voice. State-controlled media encourage a culture of self-pity, victimhood and blame-shifting. This is the breeding ground for present and future hostility to the West and our values.

From this perspective, it's clear that we need more than a one-dimensional war on terror. Of course we need to hunt down and destroy those who are plotting mass murder against Americans and innocent people from Africa to Asia to Europe. We must drain the swamps of terrorists; but you don't have a prayer of doing so if you leave the poisoned sources to gather and flow again. That means we must help the vast majority people of the greater Middle East build a better future. We need to illuminate an alternative path to a futile Jihad against the world...a path that leads to deeper integration of the greater Middle East into the modern world order.

The Bush Administration has a plan for waging war but no plan for winning the peace. It has invested mightily in the tools of destruction but meagerly in the tools of peaceful construction. It offers the peoples in the greater Middle East retribution and war but little hope for liberty and prosperity.

What America needs today is a smarter, more comprehensive and far-sighted strategy for modernizing the greater Middle East. It should draw on all of our nation's strengths: military might, the world's largest economy, the immense moral prestige of freedom and democracy - and our powerful alliances.

Let me emphasize that last asset in this mission: our alliances. This isn't a task that we should or need to shoulder alone. If anything, our transatlantic partners have a greater interest than we do in an economic and political transformation in the greater Middle East. They are closer to the front lines. More heavily dependent on oil imports. Prime magnets for immigrants seeking jobs. Easier to reach with missiles and just as vulnerable to terrorism.

Meanwhile, NATO is searching for a new mission. What better way to revitalize the most successful and enduring alliance in history, then to reorient it around a common threat to the global system that we have built over more than a half-century of struggle and sacrifice? The Administration has tried to focus NATO on the Middle East, but it's high-handed treatment of our European allies, on everything from Iraq to the Kyoto climate change treaty, has strained relations nearly to the breaking point.

We can do better. With creative leadership, the U.S. can enlist our allies in a sustained multilateral campaign to build bridges between the community of democracies and the greater Middle East - not just for them, but for us.

Here, in my view, is what this strategy should look like.

First, destroying al Qaeda and other anti-American terror groups must remain our top priority. While the Administration has largely prosecuted this war with vigor, it also has made costly mistakes. The biggest, in my view, was their reluctance to translate their robust rhetoric into American military engagement in Afghanistan. They relied too much on local warlords to carry the fight against our enemies and this permitted many al Qaeda members, and according to evidence, including Osama bin Laden himself, to slip through our fingers. Now the Administration must redouble its efforts to track them down. And we need to pressure Pakistan to get control of its territories along the Afghanistan border, which have become a haven for terrorists.

Second, without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses.

He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. He miscalculated an eight-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's response to that act of naked aggression. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending scuds into Israel and trying to assassinate an American President. He miscalculated his own military strength. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his misconduct. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction.

That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm.

So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War. Regrettably the current Administration failed to take the opportunity to bring this issue to the United Nations two years ago or immediately after September 11th, when we had such unity of spirit with our allies. When it finally did speak, it was with hasty war talk instead of a coherent call for Iraqi disarmament. And that made it possible for other Arab regimes to shift their focus to the perils of war for themselves rather than keeping the focus on the perils posed by Saddam's deadly arsenal. Indeed, for a time, the Administration's unilateralism, in effect, elevated Saddam in the eyes of his neighbors to a level he never would have achieved on his own, undermining America's standing with most of the coalition partners which had joined us in repelling the invasion of Kuwait a decade ago.

In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the United Nations has now affirmed that Saddam Hussein must disarm or face the most serious consequences. Let me make it clear that the burden is resoundingly on Saddam Hussein to live up to the ceasefire agreement he signed and make clear to the world how he disposed of weapons he previously admitted to possessing. But the burden is also clearly on the Bush Administration to do the hard work of building a broad coalition at the U.N. and the necessary work of educating America about the rationale for war.

As I have said frequently and repeat here today, the United States should never go to war because it wants to, the United States should go to war because we have to. And we don't have to until we have exhausted the remedies available, built legitimacy and earned the consent of the American people, absent, of course, an imminent threat requiring urgent action.

The Administration must pass this test. I believe they must take the time to do the hard work of diplomacy. They must do a better job of making their case to the American people and to the world.

I have no doubt of the outcome of war itself should it be necessary. We will win. But what matters is not just what we win but what we lose. We need to make certain that we have not unnecessarily twisted so many arms, created so many reluctant partners, abused the trust of Congress, or strained so many relations, that the longer term and more immediate vital war on terror is made more difficult. And we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war.

And I say to the United Nations, show respect for your own mandates. Do not find refuge in excuses and equivocation. Stand up for the rule of law, not just in words but in deeds. Not just in theory but in reality. Stand up for our common goal: either bringing about Iraq's peaceful disarmament or the decisive military victory of a multilateral coalition.

Third, as we continue our focus on the greater Middle East, the U.S. must look beyond stability alone as the linchpin of our relationships. We must place increased focus on the development of democratic values and human rights as the keys to long-term security. If we learned anything from our failure in Vietnam it is that regimes removed from the people cannot permanently endure. They must reform or they will finally crumble, despite the efforts of the United States. We must side with and strengthen the aspirations of those seeking positive change. America needs to be on the side of the people, not the regimes that keep them down.
In the 1950s, as the sun was setting on European colonialism, a young Senator named John Kennedy went to the Senate floor and urged the Eisenhower Administration not to back France against a rebellious Algeria. He recognized that the United States could only win the Cold War by staying true to our values, by championing the independence of those aspiring to be free.

What's at issue today is not U.S. support for colonial powers out of touch with history, but for autocratic regimes out of touch with their own people.

We as Americans must be agents of hope as well as enemies of terrorism. We must help bring modernity to the greater Middle East. We must make significant investments in the education and human infrastructure in developing countries. The globalization of the last decade taught us that simple measures like buying books and family planning can expose, rebut, isolate and defeat the apostles of hate so that children are no longer brainwashed into becoming suicide bombers and terrorists are deprived the ideological breeding grounds. I believe we must reform and increase our global aid to strengthen our focus on the missions of education and health --of freedom for women -- and economic development for all.

The U.S. should take a page from our Cold War playbook. No one expected communism to fall as suddenly as it did. But that didn't prevent us from expanding society-to-society aid to support human rights groups, independent media and labor unions and other groups dedicated to building a democratic culture from the ground up. Democracy won't come to the greater Middle East overnight, but the U.S. should start by supporting the region's democrats in their struggles against repressive regimes or by working with those which take genuine steps towards change.

We must embark on a major initiative of public diplomacy to bridge the divide between Islam and the rest of the world. We must make avoidance of the clash of civilizations the work of our generation: Engaging in a new effort to bring to the table a new face of the Arab world -- Muslim clerics, mullahs, imams and secular leaders -- demonstrating for the entire world a peaceful religion which can play an enormous role in isolating and rebutting those practitioners who would pervert Islam's true message.

Fourth, The Middle East isn't on the Bush Administration's trade agenda. We need to put it there.
The United States and its transatlantic partners should launch a high-profile Middle East trade initiative designed to stop the economic regression in the Middle East and spark investment, trade and growth in the region. It should aim at dismantling trade barriers that are among the highest in the world, encouraging participation in world trade policy and ending the deep economic isolation of many of the region's countries.

I propose the following policy goals:
We should build on the success of Clinton Administration's Jordan Free Trade Agreement. Since the United States reduced tariffs on goods made in "qualifying industrial zones," Jordan's exports to the US jumped from $16 to $400 million, creating about 40,000 jobs. Let's provide similar incentives to other countries that agree to join the WTO, stop boycotting Israel and supporting Palestinian violence against Israel, and open up their economies.

We should also create a general duty-free program for the region, just as we've done in the Caribbean Basin Initiative and the Andean Trade Preference Act. Again, we should set some conditions: full cooperation in the war on terror, anti-corruption measures, non-compliance with the Israel boycott, respect for core labor standards and progress toward human rights.

Let's be clear: Our goal is not to impose some western free market ideology on the greater Middle East. It's to open up a region that is now closed to opportunity, an outpost of economic exclusion and stagnation in a fast-globalizing world.

These countries suffer from too little globalization, not too much. Without greater investment, without greater trade within the region and with the outside world, without the transparency and legal protections that modern economies need to thrive, how will these countries ever be able to grow fast enough to provide jobs and better living standards for their people? But as we extend the benefits of globalization to people in the greater Middle East and the developing world in general, we also need to confront globalization's dark side.

We should use the leverage of capital flows and trade to lift, not lower, international labor and environmental standards. We should strengthen the IMF's ability to prevent financial panics from turning into full-scale economic meltdowns such as we've seen in Argentina. And in the Middle East especially, we need to be sensitive to fears that globalization will corrupt or completely submerge traditional cultures and mores. We can do these things.

Fifth, and finally, we must have a new vision and a renewed engagement to reinvigorate the Mideast peace process. This Administration made a grave error when it disregarded almost seventy years of American friendship and leadership in the Middle East and the efforts of every President of the last 30 years. A great nation like ours should not be dragged kicking and resisting - should not have to be pressured to the task of making peace. A great nation like ours should be leading the effort to make peace or we risk encouraging through our inaction the worst instincts of an already troubled region.

Israel is our ally, the only true democracy in this troubled region, and we know that Israel as a partner is fundamental to our security. From Truman through Clinton, America has always been committed to Israel's independence and survival - we will never waver.

Israel's security will be best assured over the long term if real and lasting peace can be brought to the Middle East. I know from my own trips to Israel that the majority of the Israeli people understand and expect that one day there will be a Palestinian state. Their frustration is that they do not see a committed partner in peace on the Palestinian side. Palestinians must stop the violence - this is the fundamental building block of the peace process. The Palestinian leadership must be reformed, not only for the future of the Palestinian people but also for the sake of peace. I believe Israel would respond to this new partner after all, Israel has already indicated its willingness to freeze settlements and to move toward the establishment of a Palestinian state as part of a comprehensive peace process.

Without demanding unilateral concessions, the United States must mediate a series of confidence building steps which start down the road to peace. Both parties must walk this path together - simultaneously. And the world can help them do it. While maintaining our long term commitment to Israel's existence and security, the United States must work to keep both sides focused on the end game of peace. Extremists must not be allowed to control this process. American engagement and successful mediation are not only essential to peace in this war-torn area but also critical to the success of our own efforts in the war against terrorism. When I visited the region last year, in meetings with King Abdullah of Jordan, President Mubarak of Egypt, and Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, it became clear that September 11th had changed the imperatives of these countries. The Bush Administration has missed an opportunity to enlist much greater support in the peace process and needs to focus on this urgent priority- now.

The transformation of the Middle East which can come from these efforts will determine much of our future - but we must also look to the challenges on the rest of the planet. We must build a new and more effective role for the United States in the rest of this complex world.

The central challenge for the United States is to undertake and lead the most global, comprehensive effort in history to deal with proliferation generally and nuclear weapons lost or loose in a dangerous world specifically. It is no secret that there are those lurking in the shadows eager to capitalize on a deadly market for nuclear materials held in insecure facilities around the world.

Five years ago, authorities seized a nuclear fuel rod that had been stolen from the
Congo. The security guard entrusted with protecting it had simply lent out his keys to the storage facility. Two years later, even after near disaster, the facility was guarded only by a few underpaid guards, rusty gates, and a simple padlock.

The potential consequences are fearful and undeniable. In October 2001, we picked up warnings that terrorists had acquired a 10-kiloton nuclear bomb. If detonated in New York City, hundreds of thousands of Americans would have died, and most of Manhattan would have been destroyed. Sam Nunn had an important warning, "This intelligence report was judged to be false. But it was never judged to be implausible or impossible."

This Administration's approach to the menace of loose nuclear materials is strong on rhetoric, but short on execution. It relies primarily and unwisely on the threat of military preemption against terrorist organizations, which can be defeated if they are found, but will not be deterred by our military might.

It is time instead for the most determined, all-out effort ever initiated to secure the world's nuclear materials and weapons of mass des. We must offer our own blueprint for the mission of threat reduction. Comprehensively securing materials and keeping them from falling into the wrong hands demands a global perspective and international action. The only answer - the clear imperative - is a multilateral framework implementing a global consensus that weapons of mass destruction under the control of terrorists represent the most serious threat to international security today, and warrants an urgent and global response. We must marshal a great international effort to inventory and secure these materials wherever they may be and in whatever quantity. We must create mechanisms to help those that would be responsible stewards but lack the financial and technical means to succeed We must establish worldwide standards for the security and safekeeping of nuclear material and define a new standard of international legitimacy, linking the stewardship of nuclear materials under universally accepted protocols to acceptance in the community of nations.

Nowhere is the need more clear or urgent than in North Korea.

There the Bush Administration has offered only a merry go-round policy. They got up on their high horse, whooped and hollered, rode around in circles, and ended right back where they'd started. By suspending talks initiated by the Clinton Administration, then asking for talks but with new conditions, then refusing to talk under the threat of nuclear blackmail, and then reversing that refusal as North Korea's master of brinkmanship upped the ante, the Administration created confusion and put the despot Kim Jong Il in the driver's seat. By publicly taking military force, negotiations, and sanctions all off the table, the Administration tied its own hands behind its back. Now, finally, the Administration is rightly working with allies in the region - acting multilaterally -- to put pressure on Pyongyang. They've gotten off the merry go round - the question is why you'd ever want to be so committed to unilateralist dogma that you'd get on it in the first place.

So too has the Administration missed major opportunities to address the downside of globalization by creating its upside - relief for nations around the globe struggling against environmental degradation, global health crises, debt relief in exchange for better development policies and improved trade relationships. We need to show the face of enlightened-not robber barren capitalism-something I will expand on in the months ahead.

One of the clearest opportunities missed is the environment. America has not led but fled on the issue of global warming. President Bush's declaration that the Kyoto Protocol was simply Dead on Arrival spoke for itself - and it spoke in dozens of languages as his words whipped instantly around the globe. But what the Administration failed to see was that Kyoto was not just an agreement - it was a product of 160 nations working together over 10 years. It was a good faith effort - and the United States just dismissed it. We didn't aim to mend it. We didn't aim to sit down with our allies and find a compromise. We didn't aim for a new dialogue. The Administration was simply ready to aim and fire, and the target they hit was our international reputation. This country can and should aim higher than preserving its place as the world's largest unfettered polluter. And we should assert, not abandon our leadership in addressing global economic degradation and the warming of the atmosphere we share with the other 90% of humanity.

We should be the world's leader in sustainable developmental policies. We should be the world's leader in technology transfer and technical assistance to meet a host of environmental and health challenges. We should rejoin our allies at the negotiating table - and recognize that friends in the fight for environmental clean-up are also the friends we rely on to help clean out the stables of terrorism. And this is a matter of our national security, too.

Let me offer one last example: The threat of disintegration and chaos rises steadily in Africa as the continent is increasingly devastated by HIV/AIDS. More than 29 million people there are afflicted with that disease. Africa has 11% of the world's population but 70% of all the people in the world living with HIV/AIDS.

Responding is not only morally right, but deeply practical and fundamentally important to the cause of global stability and ultimately our own safety. How can countries -- or whole continents -- torn apart by an untreated epidemic successfully resist the call to violence, terror, and the trade of weapons of mass destruction?

There is much that we can do. We have learned that we can change behavior through prevention and education programs, and if we make treatment available for those already sick. We can stop the transmission from mother to child. And we can reduce the growing number of AIDS "orphans" if we start adding voluntary counseling, testing and treatment of parents and care givers to children.

Yet the Bush Administration, intent on appeasing its right wing, assails population control while it neglects AIDS control even as that disease threatens to destroy whole populations. We must put our national interests in the claims of compassion ahead of political calculation and conservative dogma. The United States must be a leader in assembling an international coalition with other governments and private sector partners -- a coalition with the will and resources to confront the pandemic of HIV/AIDS with the same determination that we bring to the war on terrorism. I challenge the Bush Administration to develop and implement a comprehensive strategy to help the countries in Africa win the war against AIDS in their own backyard -- backed up by substantial increases in resources, beginning with $2.5 billion for the upcoming fiscal year.

Taken together, I believe these proposals, that I have put forward today, present a far better vision for how we deal with the rest of the world - a better vision for how we build relationships - and how doing so will make America safer. But there are other things we must do as well. I also believe there is a better vision for military transformation; a better vision for intelligence gathering; and a far more effective way of achieving homeland security and domestic preparedness. I intend to lay out detailed proposals on each of these areas in the coming months.

This is a fateful time - a time for new American leadership in the world and new leadership in America that sets before us the great challenges and honestly addresses what we must do to meet them. The effort will not be easy. The task will not be simple and success will not be swift. But it's our challenge to look to the long term - beyond the next election to the next generation - bending the course of history, recognizing that other nations share it with us, and joining with them in resolve and hope, thereby making safer the life of America and making better the life of the world. With a progressive internationalism. shaped by our bedrock values, and quiet confidence in our strength and in our cause, we must once again demonstrate to an anxious world. America's resolve to bear the burdens and pay the price of leadership so that we may, as President Kennedy said on a cold January day long ago, "assure the survival and success of liberty."
http://www.johnkerry.com/news/speeches/spc_2003_0123.html



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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. n/t
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 06:50 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. w4rma, were you mistaken, or dishonest? please respond.

If using IE, go to http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html hit Ctrl-F to search for text in the page. Type in the word 'unilaterally' and click Search. Folks, check for yourself.

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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Yeah hes a Kucinich supporter
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Hey, at least I know my candidates and what they stand for!
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 03:58 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
:D
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. heh
On your candiate, hes still at #2 on my list, and I must say I was pleased and kinda grinned when I heard he sent letters to those on the NRA black list. If Kerry is on the list and was on Nixon's enemy list, thats good to know.
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cindyw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. For how long back?
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 02:37 PM by cindyw
A person's record is based on their past performance.

Does it count if someone has a past record of being a moderate? Does it count if someone was the original DLC type and now has seen the light? I think many people here would disagree that a candidates record matters. Haven't you learned yet that only their actions for the last year count? I mean where would some of our candidates be if the things they fought for in their lives mattered.

Seriously, if this was true then this would be the poll numbers.

1. Kerry (Vietnam Veterans, environment, Iran contra, etc)
2. Kucinich (everything and, I mean everything)* I only put him second on the pro-life
3. Sharpton (civil rights)
4. Clark (bringing down mass holocaustal dictator)
5. Edwards (fight against corp. who endanger people's lives)
6. Dean (gay rights*at bottom because he had no choice, but to sign and choose not to legalize gay marriage when he had complete political cover by court order)

But they are not. They are based on the lst year alone.

1. Dean (Iraq war, money raised)
2. Clark (Iraq war and desire for general after 9/11)
3. Gephardt (union endorsements)
4. Kerry
5. Edwards
6. Lieberman
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Did Iraq need inspections
In September 2002. Yes or no.
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. I don't believe anything just because it was in the NY Times
However, my impression of Kerry's position is that he has been very consistent about Iraq, holding Saddam accountable and whether or not to go to war.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. Kerry has always been very consistent and strong
in all his positions. The waffle smear is getting a little tiring.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. He's been strong and not waffling in the eyes of Kerry partisans
But not to much of anybody else.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Dean's been strong and not waffling in the eyes of Dean partisans
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. That's funny, since the only people who accuse Dean of waffling
on Iraq, has been Kerry or his supporters. Every other news source I've read has said he's been consistantly against the invasion. And it's no wonder:

Vermont Gov. Howard Dean said if Saddam is shown to have atomic or biological weapons, the United States must act. But he also said Bush must first convince Americans that Iraq has these weapons and then prepare them for the likelihood American troops would be there for a decade.

August 12, 2002

"There's substantial doubt that is as much of a threat as the Bush administration claims." Though Americans might initially rally to military action, 'that support will be very short-lived once American kids start coming home in boxes,' Mr. Dean warned Wednesday as he campaigned in Iowa.

September 06, 2002

"The president has to do two things to get the country's long-term support for the invasion of Iraq," Dean said in a telephone interview. "He has done neither yet." Dean said President Bush needs to make the case that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, such as atomic or biological weapons, and the means to use them. Bush also needs to explain to the American public that a war against Iraq is going to require a long commitment.

September 18, 2002

Dean, in an interview Tuesday, said flatly that he did not believe Bush has made "the case that we need to invade Iraq." Dean said he could support military action, even outside the U.N., if Bush could "establish with reasonable credibility" that Hussein had the capacity to deliver either nuclear or biological weapons against the United States and its allies. But he said that the president, to this point, hadn't passed that test.

"He is asking American families to sacrifice their children, and he's got to have something more than, 'This is an evil man,' " Dean said. "There are a lot of evil people running countries around the world; we don't bomb every one of them. We don't ask our children to die over every one of them."

September 18, 2002

"The president approached it in exactly the wrong way. The first thing I would have done is gone to United Nations Security Council and gone to our allies and say, "Look, the UN resolutions are being violated. If you don't enforce them, then we will have to." The first choice, however, is to enforce them through the UN and with our allies. That's the underlying approach."

October 31st, 2002

"I would like to at least have the president, who I think is an honest person, look us in the eye and say, 'We have evidence, here it is.' We've never heard the president of the United States say that. There is nothing but innuendo, and I want to see some hard facts."

December 22, 2002

"I do not believe the president has made the case to send American kids and grandkids to die in Iraq. And until he does that, I don't think we ought to be going into Iraq. So I think the two situations are fairly different. Iraq does not possess nuclear weapons. The best intelligence that anybody can find, certainly that I can find, is that it will be at least a year before he does so and maybe five years."

January 06, 2003

"I personally believe hasn’t made his case"

January 10, 2003

"These are the young men and women who will be asked to risk their lives for freedom. We certainly deserve more information before sending them off to war."

January 29, 2003

"Terrorism around the globe is a far greater danger to the United States than Iraq. We are pursuing the wrong war,"

February 5, 2003

"We ought not to resort to unilateral action unless there is an imminent threat to the United States. And the secretary of State and the president have not made a case that such an imminent threat exists.''

February 12, 2003

In an interview, Dean said that he opposed the congressional resolution and remained unconvinced that Hussein was an imminent threat to the United States. He said he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approved the move and backed it with action of its own.

"They have to send troops," he said.
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/5236485.htm">Feb. 22, 2003

"Well, I think that the United Nations makes it clear that Saddam has to disarm, and if he doesn't, then they will disarm him militarily. I have no problem with supporting a United Nations attack on Iraq, but I want it to be supported by the United Nations. That's a well-constituted body. The problem with the so-called multilateral attack that the president is talking about is an awful lot of countries, for example, like Turkey-- we gave them $20 billion in loan guarantees and outright grants in order to secure their permission to attack. I don't think that's the right way to put together a coalition. I think this really has to be a world matter. Saddam must be disarmed. He is as evil as everybody says he is. But we need to respect the legal rights that are involved here. Unless they are an imminent threat, we do not have a legal right, in my view, to attack them.

February 27, 2003

What I want to know is what in the world so many Democrats are doing supporting the President’s unilateral intervention in Iraq?

March 15th, 2003

"I went to Parris Island so I could look into the faces of the kids who will be sent to Iraq," Dean told a cheering lunchtime crowd in Concord, N.H. "We should always support our kids, but I do not support this president's policies and I will continue to say so."

March 18, 2003

"Anti-war Presidential candidate Howard Dean said he will not silence his criticism of President Bush's Iraq policy now that the war has begun, but he will stop the 'red meat' partisan attacks.

"No matter how strongly I oppose the President's policy, I will continue to support American troops who are now in harms way," said Dean

March 20, 2003

While Dean said he was staunchly opposed to the war and planned to continue criticizing it, he also said the United States should keep fighting, putting him at odds with other antiwar activists who have been calling for an immediate cease-fire.

''We're in. We don't have any choice now. But this is the wrong choice,'' Dean said. ''There will be some who think we should get out immediately, but I don't think that's an easy position to take.''

March 23, 2003

On day one of a Dean Presidency, I will reverse this attitude. I will tear up the Bush Doctrine. And I will steer us back into the company of the community of nations where we will exercise moral leadership once again.

April 17th, 2003

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. I know no matter how many times you are confronted with the facts
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 06:33 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
you will keep denying them.


Howard Dean wants the peace movement to believe that he is its best hope for bringing change in Washington.

In television ads and presidential debates, Dean has emphasized his opposition to Bush's decision to launch a unilateral invasion of Iraq--and downplaying his support for the continued U.S. military occupation of Iraq, and his earlier waffling over whether he might have supported a war in Iraq under slightly different conditions.
http://www.counterpunch.org/donahue10302003.html

"On January 31, Dean told Ron Brownstein of the Los Angeles Times that "if Bush presents what he considered to be persuasive evidence that Iraq still had weapons of mass destruction, he would support military action, even without U.N. authorization."

And then on Feb. 20, Dean told Salon.com that "if the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice."

But a day later, he told the Associated Press that he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approves the move and backs it with action of its own. "They have to send troops," he said."

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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Irony!
It's fantastic!
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MrPeepers Donating Member (311 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. The media is a right wing hell hole
right up to the part where it says what you want it to. Kerry hasn't been a media favorite unlike Dean, for whatever reason. They don't bother to take the time to understand his opinions, and report things as such.

Peepers
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Yeah, the BBC is very right-wing biased.
I understand Kerry's position. He voted for the Iraq war cause he didn't want to look weak on national security.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. I understand why Dean lied
he had to create an artificial distinction between himself and Kerry on the one issue energizing his campaign. And since Kerry voted for the resolution, that's the one-note this one-note Johnny keeps playing.

"I'm the only major candidate running, who's in reasonably good shape in the polls, who voted “No” on the Iraq Resolution."
http://www.ourfuture.org/docUploads/dean_062303_131529.pdf

Now if this were an off-the-cuff remark, or an answer to a reporters question, it might be believable that he 'misspoke' -- but this is a prepared speech.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. Dean doesn't usually give prepared speeches.
That wasn't one of them.

He mispoke. He still opposed the Iraq war and was labelled unelectable for the longest time. A label Kerry supporters still use to bash him. Why didn't Kerry get that label? Oh, that's right, he supported the war.
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MrPeepers Donating Member (311 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #60
67. Or perhaps...
it's because he has been in the Senate for 19 years... served in the Military... been a Lt. Governor... an Assistant DA...

Maybe it's because he's been fighting his ass off for progressive ideas for the past few decades. Gun control. Abortion. Gay rights. Civil Rights. Foreign Policy. The list goes on and on.

Those things certainly have nothing to do with not getting an "unelectable label."

I don't understand why everying is so for the war/against the war for you. Kerry was against the war. Had he been President, we sure as hell wouldn't be in this situation. Had he voted against the IWR, we sure as hell would be in the same situation we are right now.

Peepers
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Pez Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
48. kerry doesn't take his responsibility lightly...
...and dean is a backseat driver when it comes to policy. he can nag in anyone's ear all night long, but it doesn't change the fact that he has zero credibility and zero vision when foreign policy and dealing with terrorism is involved. kerry has decades of experience in both instances.

what i would like to know is how dean rationalizes being FOR Gulf War I and supposedly against this one. that is a disconnect in basic foreign policy thinking i'd like him to (attempt to) address.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
50. Agreed not waffling
Either stupid or lying
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dfitzsim Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
55. Kerry has moral clarity - that's the lithmus not the IWR vote
What makes sense in October 2002, seems ludicrous in May 2003, especially on a geo-political stage being manipulated by Bush Co. I'm not a Kerry supporter (although the posted speeches by - ironically - Kilbotfactory and others makes me lean towards him), but it is clear that he has maintained a clear moral vision during our lead-up to and through the Iraq war. On that he has not waivered. He had hoped his vote on the IWR would have one consequence - and it did for a while - but his "mistake" was trusting the President to do what he said he'd do; namely get inspections going and build a real international coalition if they failied. Bush didn't do the right thing.

Sometimes you have to take the President at his word. At the time of the vote, the pResident was publicly stating that he was looking for a peaceful solution. He fucking lied. Don't hold Kerry responsible for Bush's lie.










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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. Why did Kerry vote for the IWR, btw?
Was it because he knew Bush could invade anytime he wanted, and was trying to minimize the damage by persuading him to try and work through the UN, or was it because he wanted Bush to have the threat of force to make Saddam comply with inspections? I've heard both excuses from Kerry and his supporters.

Doesn't seem moraly clear to me, but YMMV.
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MrPeepers Donating Member (311 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #61
68. Once again...
let me explain Kerry's stance on the IWR. Kerry voted for the resolution because he felt it was necessary for the United States Congress to give the Administration the power it needed to sucessfully bargain with Hussein. Kerry voted for the resolution because he thought it would avert war. As soon as it became apparent the Bush Administration was going into Iraq regardless of international support and without sufficient justification, Sen. Kerry voiced his outrage along with the rest of us. Of course it was a big deal, but all of us are human. Senator Kerry couldn't have known the Administration would act the way it did. It would have been irresponsible for him to have assumed the administration would act the way it did. He had two choices: vote for the resolution and hopefully give the President the leverage he needed to force Hussein to back down, or vote against the resolution, which had two possible out comes. First, he garners the support needed and defeats the resoltion. Would that have stopped Bush from going into Iraq? I think not. Then Kerrry is faced with pondering whether or not an approval of the resolution could have prevented the mess in the first place. Or second, the resolution passes anyway, and it makes no difference. Sen. Kerry made a judgement call. He overestimated the integrity of the Administration. He won't make the same mistake again. It was a big deal. It still is a big deal. But that resolution is over and done with, and we can't do anything about it. What matters now is that John Kerry has a cohesive plan for how to win the peace in Iraq, prevent any further bloodshed, get the International Community involved in the re-building process, and start erasing some of the ills the Bush Administration has created. You can find it at his webpage, www.johnkerry.com. You may disagree with Kerry's vote on the resolution to authorize force, but I argue that Kerry is making up for any mistake with his efforts to remedy the situation in its current state. That's why I support Kerry, because he has a concrete plan of how to go about fixing things, and dosn't spend all his time screaming about how evil Bush is. But that's just my take on things. It wasn't so cut-and-dry as people like to think. Not everything is black and white.

Peepers

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