New info on the gay bashing flap?

[ModerateMiddle]

http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22641194.html

Interesting article, and has several of the reporters on the scene's reflections on what happened. I've heard this twice now, and it seems quite likely to me:

The press conference represented the second confrontation between Allen and Gephardt staff members during the event. Earlier, Allen received a call on his cellular telephone while Gephardt was speaking.

Allen said Wednesday that the call lasted less than a minute, and that he had attempted to be "quiet and discreet."

But a newspaper reporter, who says he was standing next to Allen, described Allen's behavior as "clearly very provocative," and said he understood why Gephardt staffers sought to remove him.

"If anything transpired, for my money, it was Allen who started it," said Tony Allen-Mills, the Washington, D.C., correspondent for the Sunday Times of London.

Allen-Mills said the Dean staffer was loud, "very distracting," and "at one point his was the only voice you could hear. . . . It looked very much to me that he was being deliberately provocative."

[veganwitch]

1. thats why you generally dont go to other peoples events

especially if you work for another persons campaign. i actually think there is some sort of "spying" rule in campaigns. we were told not to do it when i was working on one.

[Wellong]

3. If an event is open to the public

I would send people from my campaign to observe. In no way would that be spying.

Is that the case here? I have no idea. But sending campaign workers to opponents events that are open to the public is not spying.

[Cocoa]

4. it wasn't spying, it was disrupting

But a newspaper reporter, who says he was standing next to Allen, described Allen's behavior as "clearly very provocative," and said he understood why Gephardt staffers sought to remove him.

"If anything transpired, for my money, it was Allen who started it," said Tony Allen-Mills, the Washington, D.C., correspondent for the Sunday Times of London.

Allen-Mills said the Dean staffer was loud, "very distracting," and "at one point his was the only voice you could hear. . . . It looked very much to me that he was being deliberately provocative."

Allen, the Dean supporter, could not be reached for comment Thursday. Leonard said Allen apologized for the phone call, and that "it was not his intent to be disruptive."

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[ModerateMiddle]

12. there is evidence that Allen *is* lying

he said he was "quiet and discreet" when he was on the phone in the middle of the speech Gep was giving. Witnesses belie that version, and contend he was loud and provocative. It lends a lot of credence to the story that the Gep camp is giving out that the slur "never happened".

[9119495]

19. 2nd reply. First one axed

What gives you the right to make such a rude comment? I know you support Kerry and I really liked him...until some of his most angry supporters turned me so far off, I will not work for him in the general election.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

20. One person's rude comment is another person's plain speech.

It's in the eye of the beholder or the ear of the listener.

[9119495]

21. So why was the alert button hit on my first post?

Perhaps you could answer me that. I would agree with this most recent remark.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

23. I didn't see it

so I don't know. Check these two pages:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/attacks.html

sometimes in the heat of the moment it is easy to step over the line.

[helleborient]

28. This must be why you don't call off...

The profanity and nastiness from fellow Kerry supporters...now I understand.

[veganwitch]

7. if you are going as a member of the public is one thing

going as a campaign worker to get some dirt or do counter intelligence is another.

i know we were told, as tempting as it would be, not to go to any of our opponents events.

for one, the hour or so we spent there was an hour we were not spending working on our candidate and two, so that something like this would not happened. i would have to call my former campaign manager about any actual "rules" or if its just unspoken law. and we did try to have our opponents people infiltrate our press conferences for the purpose of filming and trying to get dirt.

and if you are there for counter intellegence reasons, you do have the right to tell people to leave, especially if you are being distruptive, we had to do it several times.

[redqueen]

8. It seems the two campaigns had an agreement.

They'd each allow the other to send a representative. I think that was reported in one of the articles yesterday, anyway.

I'm sure they expected the representative to be well behaved, though.

[dsc]

25. This is done all the time

as even the Gephardt people admit.

[ModerateMiddle]

2. and this

from the same article:

No one has come forward who either heard that discussion or the alleged slur. Allen, who was taping the event, said he had turned off the tape recorder during the confrontations.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. Allen sounds as honest as Dean

That's the problem with having a liar for a leader. You start to believe winning matters more than the truth.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

9. Just curious- what has been Dean's worst lie?

That's a pretty hefty charge to make and if true, the GOP will certainly use it to smear his credibility.

[veganwitch]

10. i would probably say..

when he said "im from the democratic wing of the democratic party."


*do i really wanna go here?*

[RogueTrooper]

13. And what is innacurate about that?

[veganwitch]

14. because

hes said several times that he is not a "liberal" and that he is a centrist, "triangulator" etc. if youve noticed, he hasnt said lately.

of course he doesnt mind being considered a liberal if it will get him votes.

he's misconstrewing his actual policies and stances by claiming to be one thing when he is actually another.

and for that his credibility with me, at least, is nil.

"if you eat meat, dont say you are a vegetarian." a quote from a friend of mine on another topic but still pertinent to this.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

15. When Wellstone said it, it meant something.

When Dean says it, it's like Bush claiming to be a 'compassionate conservative'.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

16. well this has really devolved- so the GOP will use his Wellstone imitation

in ads against him? I meant his waffle lies: medicare, retirement age....

[veganwitch]

18. you asked for the "big one"

and for me that is the big one. if you policies are centrist, say you are a centrist. then some of your "wafflings" make much more sense under that context.

but if you are saying you are a liberal and your policies dont back it up, then you just look like a liar and for that the GOP might use it against him.

there are two things that come up in politic attack ads, first is just the disagreement with policy, in this case "liberalness", second is consistency. dean's policies are not consist with being from "the democratic wing of the democratic party." so not only is he a "liberal", and they will focus on the civil unions thing, but hes a bad one at that because of what hes said on medicare and retirement.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

22. Thing is

most of Dean's (I will be charitable) misrepresentations are designed to attract liberals, and to run from his more centrist record. So some of the flip-flops that trouble me the most, aren't great ammo for Bush, I will admit.

Except if Dean wins the nomination, we can expect to see him tack hard to the right. Based on his performance so far, that is likely to produce the same kind of continually 'evolving positions' we are seeing now. Which probably will provide ammo.

And also, I doubt any of us are able to predict the kind of vicious, evil attacks that will come from Rove -- it's just too alien a mindset.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

24. I can easily predict this one being used against him:

"America will not always be the strongest nation in the world militarily".

The GOP spin machine is licking their chops over that one.

[helleborient]

27. Which candidate will not be the target of Republican attacks?

There's plenty of raw meat on Kerry from the Kerry/Weld race...and Massachusetts is not a microcosm of the rest of the country...some of that garbage is bound to stick.

And yes...Kerry's positions on Iraq are a HUGE liability nationally. Republicans will be even better than Dean in shooting at that big target.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

40. Kerry's positions on Iraq are a HUGE liability nationally???

Republicans will be even better than Dean in shooting at that big target?

This makes no sense since Dean is the one with the liability in a general election:
Dean is the idiot who said we would not always be the strongest nation militarily.
Dean said he would have voted 'no' on IWR.

Kerry has been consistent and in line with the conventional thinking on Iraq (and Saddam) ever since Clinton '98.

Dean OTOH is a gigantic pinata that the GOP will hit with a stick mercilessly.

[helleborient]

46. Who's conventional thinking?

Certainly not that of liberal leaders in Congress.

And certainly not that of the public when he was speaking out against it.

Sometimes he's joined with other Democrats on it...other times he's voted with Bush.

You don't think Republicans will raise serious questions about why the perception of switching...and a 30-second ad won't allow him to rebut that.

[veganwitch]

17. here it is in a nutshell

thank you for being more concise than I

[Skwmom]

44. They always say the tone is set at the top and trickles down. e/o/m

[dsc]

26. It is pretty rare to get called a faggot in a crowd

A huge deal is being made over the fact that no one witnessed this. Well, duh. The confrontation happened out of ear and camera shot, which Mr. Kelly surely would have known (the cameras were his campaigns cameras after all). I have heard every reason in the book that this guy is supposedly a liar. Reason one was "How did they know he was gay?" Well, let me tell you this. I used to be called faggot a Hell of a lot in high school without them having certain knowledge but just their guess. It happens. Reason two, reporters who DIDN'T WITNESS THE ALTERCATION, and work for CONSERVATIVE AND ANTI GAY OUTLETS, say it didn't. Sorry, but that isn't good enough.

[DrFunkenstein]

29. Your Personal Anecdotes Aside

I still don't buy it. I know what you are saying about subtle effiminacy and all, but I'm just not convinced that it happened.

[dsc]

30. I don't know if it did or it didn't

but several posters are saying it couldn't have well it could.

[redqueen]

31. I'm certainly not in that camp.

I know darn well it could happen. I just didn't assume it was true immediately upon hearing it. The first thing that made me suspicious, as others have said, was the timing of the release of the claim.

Also, there is now the issue of the allegation that the call was not quiet and handled in a respectful manner, as Allen had originally claimed. That small misrepresentation, if it was a misrepresentation, casts the rest of the story in a less than favorable light.

[DrFunkenstein]

32. That Pretty Much Sums Up My Position

n/t

[helleborient]

34. That's not your position above...

You basically said you did not believe him...basically, he's a liar.

That's not what redqueen said.

[DrFunkenstein]

35. Read What You Want - I'll Quote My Damn Self

"I'm just not convinced that it happened."

Is this what happens when Dean supporters read my posts? Do they normally go for the nastiest possible version?

All I said was that I didn't buy dsc's argument based on personal experience and the source of the articles.

[redqueen]

38. Seems to me we used different words to say basically the same thing.

Only your words may have set off a few defenses!

dsc, to be fair, I don't think Dr was calling Allen a liar so much as saying he didn't necessarily believe the incident happened the way it was reported.

With so much splitting hairs and trying to find out the meaning behind people's words, you'd think Americans would have a healthy respect for lawyers! :)

[DrFunkenstein]

45. You Answered Fully

And I stated that you had completed my argument (very nicely, actually).

[ModerateMiddle]

39. Yup, that's what I think too.

and I think this is an important issue because IF someone is lying about what happened for political "dirty tricks", then it's going to make an impression on folks. Me, for example.

[redqueen]

47. Which is exactly why Dean seems to actually scare a few Dems.

His tendency to have to restate his statements / positions is starting to seem an awful lot like a pattern.

Let's just hope it stops with this one.

[helleborient]

33. Do you buy the words of other victims?

Rape victims?

Black hate crime victims?

Why would we expect you have any reason whatsoever to be a judge of this situation?

Why is it important to judge it?


Dick Gephardt asked his person and he denies it. He doesn't get fired. That's fine by me...but continuing to try and paint the victim as a liar seems completely unnecessary, but much of this country has a long, long history of blaming victims...or being selective about which victims to believe.

The victim in this case...if he is correct...has found that fellow Democrats can be very cold and unfeeling indeed.

[DrFunkenstein]

36. Again, Where Do I Call Anyone A Liar?

n/t

[helleborient]

37. "I'm just not convinced that it happened."

Why is this a relevant statement at all if you're not calling into question his truthfulness?

He said it happened...you say it didn't.

Or is there a waffle here....it could have happened, but I'm not convinced...knowing full well that there can never be any proof. Oh, but a Kerry supporter wouldn't waffle, would he???

[DrFunkenstein]

43. Questioning Veracity Is Not Asserting Mendacity

I think the whole "this is what you really meant" thing is part of the problem in DU these days.

I'll stand by what I said and let people judge.

[ModerateMiddle]

41. *IF* he is in fact the victim here

Man, if you haven't seen false claims about bad behavior before, you haven't been paying attention. It happens all the time.

The problem with this one is that the allegation is continuing - that someone was called a "faggot". Our impressions that if the guy was willing to lie about how he behaved on the telephone, he might also have been willing to lie about the "faggot" thing.

No one else heard it. He "turned off his tape recorder" for the altercation?

Hmmmmmmm.

[Skwmom]

42. My money is on the Dean staffer being deliberately provacative.

It sounds like some of the Dean supporters. I guess they think they can bully the rest of the candidates and their supporters into submission.